CAP officers who do not deserve their rank - is it a big problem?

[davidsinn]

If it's a problem, how exactly do you suggest we fix it?  Demote people that some objective body decides are unworthy of their rank?

If it's not a problem, or there isn't really a solution, then why start a thread about it?

Simple. Remove all mission based promotions. The only promotions are on PD or positional such as WG/CC etc.

I would not necessarily do that.....but I would add the requirment that the advanced promoted (be it pilots, ex-military, what ever) have a limited amount of time to finish the CAP requirments to hold their rank.

That way we keep the ability to attract people with desirable skills but still maintain the integrity of the promotion system.  (i.e. no more Lt Cols with just Level I).

I would rather have fewer people motivated by service then a lot of people who are only here because they get the bling coming through the door.

[Hawk200]

I would not necessarily do that.....but I would add the requirment that the advanced promoted (be it pilots, ex-military, what ever) have a limited amount of time to finish the CAP requirments to hold their rank.

I'd be for this. Some of our advanced promo folks get the idea that they're some kind of supreme gift to CAP because of their advanced promotion. Was reading in the paper the other day about how some companies create arrogance in new hires by treating them like they're some type of "save" for the company.

That way we keep the ability to attract people with desirable skills but still maintain the integrity of the promotion system.  (i.e. no more Lt Cols with just Level I).

Agreed, especially on the light colonels with just Level I. An established time frame for PD progression would be beneficial. Maybe something to the effect of 1LT gets a year to come up to speed; CPT gets two; and so on. Time periods would need adjustment, that's just an idea thrown out there.

[ßτε]

People with a clue wearing advanced rank.

People who have a clue about what? Trust me, those you get advanced promotions do have a clue in the area for which they are getting a promotion. Just because they aren't fully familiar with some CAP specific stuff, doesn't mean they don't have a clue.

Deflate egos.

I am not sure what you mean here. I have yet to meet any CAP officer who has been promoted for mission related skills to have an ego that needs to be deflated. 

Make people that are not in those "special" classes feel a little more equitable.

What do you mean? Do people actually feel that they are considered less of a person because they earned their Captain's bars in a different way than another? Promotions are not about equality. They are about recognizing something or some skill that is valuable to the organization.

Make our public image a little better due to my first point.

How is our public image harmed by mission related skills promotions?

I would rather have fewer people motivated by service then a lot of people who are only here because they get the bling coming through the door.

It has never been my experience that those officers promoted for mission related skills have any motivation other than applying those skills for the benefit of the members in the organization. What is the harm in recognizing those skills?

[Hawk200]

I would rather have fewer people motivated by service then a lot of people who are only here because they get the bling coming through the door.

One way to determine that they do something is telling them that they can get an advanced rank, but they're gonna have to do a little work to keep it. You'll see the motivated ones working on their professional training.

Got a guy in a local unit, retired Army colonel. Seen his retired ID so I know it's legit. In CAP, he's a Captain. Asked him why he doesn't bring in the paperwork. He wants to progress through the CAP ranks the same way that everyone else does, and feels that an instant promotion wouldn't make him knowledgeable enough in CAP to be effective. I think I'm swaying him toward the advanced rank lately, as he's pretty well CAP "savvy" now. I think he'd probably consider a requirement to progress in PD as a good thing. I'll ask him tonight.

[ßτε]

That is exactly what I am saying. I wouldn't just say CFIs either, but doctors, lawyers, comms guys etc.

And what would be the positive side to this?

The answer is in your question - what is the point of building lifer Captains?

How does this in any way answer the question?

[Eclipse]

That is exactly what I am saying. I wouldn't just say CFIs either, but doctors, lawyers, comms guys etc.

And what would be the positive side to this?

The answer is in your question - what is the point of building lifer Captains?

How does this in any way answer the question?

Exactly.

[ßτε]

Maybe I need to clarify my question.

What would be the positive side to having only duty performance promotions and not mission related skills promotions?

That is the question I would like answered.

Clearly, the responses so far have not answered that. The reference to "building lifer Captains" doesn't make sense since one can be a lifer captain regardless of how they were promoted to captain in the first place.


My point has been that those who are promoted for mission related skills are no less deserving of the promotions than any one else. They earn them for using their mission related skills for the betterment of CAP and its members.

Now if you have a pilot who is promoted just because he is a pilot and is not using those skills as either a MP or orientation pilot, then there is a problem. This type of pilot shouldn't have been promoted in the first place if they aren't using their skills for the organization.

[davidsinn]

People with a clue wearing advanced rank.

People who have a clue about what? Trust me, those you get advanced promotions do have a clue in the area for which they are getting a promotion. Just because they aren't fully familiar with some CAP specific stuff, doesn't mean they don't have a clue.

Deflate egos.

I am not sure what you mean here. I have yet to meet any CAP officer who has been promoted for mission related skills to have an ego that needs to be deflated. 

Make people that are not in those "special" classes feel a little more equitable.

What do you mean? Do people actually feel that they are considered less of a person because they earned their Captain's bars in a different way than another? Promotions are not about equality. They are about recognizing something or some skill that is valuable to the organization.

Make our public image a little better due to my first point.

How is our public image harmed by mission related skills promotions?

I would rather have fewer people motivated by service then a lot of people who are only here because they get the bling coming through the door.

It has never been my experience that those officers promoted for mission related skills have any motivation other than applying those skills for the benefit of the members in the organization. What is the harm in recognizing those skills?

I have seen several advanced promotions that did not have a clue about how CAP works or what it really is. You can't get that until about three years in. They come swaggering in thinking they are all that and screw things up. I don't care if they are Lt. Maverick, USN or Marconi himself. I don't care how good they are in their niche once they step out of that they are clueless. What good is advanced skills in one field with no knowledge of anything outside that niche? You give them the bling for a niche then they don't have a lot of incentive to round themselves out. I want to surround myself with well rounded officers. The team works much better together when they have a solid base of common knowledge to stand on.

Maybe I need to clarify my question.

What would be the positive side to having only duty performance promotions and not mission related skills promotions?

That is the question I would like answered.

Clearly, the responses so far have not answered that. The reference to "building lifer Captains" doesn't make sense since one can be a lifer captain regardless of how they were promoted to captain in the first place.


My point has been that those who are promoted for mission related skills are no less deserving of the promotions than any one else. They earn them for using their mission related skills for the betterment of CAP and its members.

Now if you have a pilot who is promoted just because he is a pilot and is not using those skills as either a MP or orientation pilot, then there is a problem. This type of pilot shouldn't have been promoted in the first place if they aren't using their skills for the organization.

I have never heard of a captain stay a captain when they came up through the ranks. Once you hit that point you're pretty engaged. I never said pilots don't deserve promotions. I merely said they need to earn them just like everyone else. That's what this is all about. Equality.

[Eclipse]

What would be the positive side to having only duty performance promotions and not mission related skills promotions?

Everyone does the same work for the same bling, which in theory means that everyone has at least a similar understanding of the whole of CAP.

No one is "special", and those who choose to specialize and not play the whole game can do so without the dichotomy of how
"grade isn't important, but I made sure I got mine..."

Our big brother service does not had out grade without at least some level of "salutin' school", why should we?

[lordmonar]

I would not necessarily do that.....but I would add the requirment that the advanced promoted (be it pilots, ex-military, what ever) have a limited amount of time to finish the CAP requirments to hold their rank.

I'd be for this. Some of our advanced promo folks get the idea that they're some kind of supreme gift to CAP because of their advanced promotion. Was reading in the paper the other day about how some companies create arrogance in new hires by treating them like they're some type of "save" for the company.

That way we keep the ability to attract people with desirable skills but still maintain the integrity of the promotion system.  (i.e. no more Lt Cols with just Level I).

Agreed, especially on the light colonels with just Level I. An established time frame for PD progression would be beneficial. Maybe something to the effect of 1LT gets a year to come up to speed; CPT gets two; and so on. Time periods would need adjustment, that's just an idea thrown out there.

I was thinking more like 1 year per PD Level.

If your rank requires Level II then you have two years to get Level II complete or you will be demoted to the highest rank that you can hold with your PD level.

That would mean Lt Cols would have 4 years to complete their PD...plenty of time IMHO for them to get everything done.

[lordmonar]

Maybe I need to clarify my question.

What would be the positive side to having only duty performance promotions and not mission related skills promotions?

That is the question I would like answered.

Clearly, the responses so far have not answered that. The reference to "building lifer Captains" doesn't make sense since one can be a lifer captain regardless of how they were promoted to captain in the first place.


My point has been that those who are promoted for mission related skills are no less deserving of the promotions than any one else. They earn them for using their mission related skills for the betterment of CAP and its members.

Now if you have a pilot who is promoted just because he is a pilot and is not using those skills as either a MP or orientation pilot, then there is a problem. This type of pilot shouldn't have been promoted in the first place if they aren't using their skills for the organization.

Okay...I'll bite....I see no real benifit of limiting promotion only to performace based promotions.

- Ego does not apply as you will always have an ego problem...that is a problem in itself not one related to rank.
- High ranks with no clue about CAP operations is a function of training....not promotion inceintives.  You hook the CFI/Legal/DR/Chaplain/CPA/PhD in with higher rank........it is a recruiting tool.....then you give them the training they need.
- Hurt feelings......suck it up.  Sorry it is as simple as that.  Life ain't fair get used to it.
- Public confidence....that's a strech....the public knows nothing about CAP....all they see is a Capt who is a CFI with a million hours....in a flying context what is the problem?  If they see an AE officer who is a PhD and a Major....gain....where's the problem. 

Yes neither of these two guys know a darn thing about the history and structure of CAP....but neither does the "public" so who cares?

Like I said before...got nothing agaisnt advanced promotions.....but I would like to see them have to catch up to the rest of use.

[Hawk200]

I was thinking more like 1 year per PD Level.

If your rank requires Level II then you have two years to get Level II complete or you will be demoted to the highest rank that you can hold with your PD level.

That would mean Lt Cols would have 4 years to complete their PD...plenty of time IMHO for them to get everything done.

Sounds fair. I would require it for everyone that gets an advanced promotion though, not just pilots or current/former military. Make it the same across the board.

[lordmonar]

I was thinking more like 1 year per PD Level.

If your rank requires Level II then you have two years to get Level II complete or you will be demoted to the highest rank that you can hold with your PD level.

That would mean Lt Cols would have 4 years to complete their PD...plenty of time IMHO for them to get everything done.

Sounds fair. I would require it for everyone that gets an advanced promotion though, not just pilots or current/former military. Make it the same across the board.

I was only using the ex-military as an example of those who could hold high rank (Lt Col) and only have Level I....but yes all advanced promotion (including those for commanders) should have to catch up.

[Hawk200]

I was only using the ex-military as an example of those who could hold high rank (Lt Col) and only have Level I....but yes all advanced promotion (including those for commanders) should have to catch up.

Sounds good to me. Now what do we need to do to get this up the chain? I'll send up from where I'm at, we just need to present a united front to do so, and make sure it's done properly.

[lordmonar]

I'll write up a white paper and send it up my chain to my wing CC for the next NB.

[RiverAux]

Topic folks?  I specifically wanted to exclude talk of the advanced promotions from this thread.  But, just so you know, I think they should all be abolished.

If it's a problem, how exactly do you suggest we fix it?  Demote people that some objective body decides are unworthy of their rank?

If it's not a problem, or there isn't really a solution, then why start a thread about it?

The point of the poll was to try to get at whether or not we do have a problem with too many officers not "worthy" of their grade.   

And judging by the answers, it seems that we don't to any great extent, at least in regards to those who got their rank through duty performance promotions. 

T

[FlyTiger77]

Simple. Remove all mission based promotions. The only promotions are on PD or positional such as WG/CC etc.

Works for me.

Would it really hurt recruiting and retention very much to do away with accelerated promotions? Being currently in a senior squadron, rank is fairly superfluous anyway.

At least, in this situation, everyone would know the wickets everyone else navigated to get to their current grade and that they are 'deserving.".

(Full disclosure: My initial appointment and first promotion were based on military rank/promotion and my AFIADL 13 and RSC were credited due to military schools, in much the same way I intend to complete credit for NSC. Other than that, I earned my present CAP grade the "hard" way.)

[flyboy53]

I never had a problem with professional or mission-based appointments. It's done in all the military services and based on levels of experience or education. You  need those guys/gals. The only sad thing is when you recruit an A&P Mechanic, give him the grade of captain and then there's noting for him/her to do under the consolidated maintenance program. Most of the people who come in like that ususally aren't at a squadron-level very long, their recruited for other things or they end up in the corner with all the aircrews.

As for adding extra requirements, that wasn't what I meant. We hold cadets to a different standard, especially if they want to be competitive for a national activity. Why not make the idea of promotions as competitive. Demonstrate that you are worthy of the promotion and willing to accept the added responsibility. Let's end what I've seen of getting promoted just because you showed up.

[arajca]

The vast majority of members who get promoted using the Duty Performance system do not have the issues that many of the insta-<insert grade> have. The duty performance members know how CAP works - and doesn't - and also understand that grade does not equal authority. Far too many of the insta-grades don't have that understanding, particularly the military promotions. They are too used to the grade=authority model that the military, police, fire, etc use.

If you REALLY need to have advanced promotions, reduce the TIG, but still require the PD. Additionally, require the PD for ALL advanced promotions - include HSO and legal. Currently, these only require Level I. Everything else is pure TIG.

[lordmonar]

As for adding extra requirements, that wasn't what I meant. We hold cadets to a different standard, especially if they want to be competitive for a national activity. Why not make the idea of promotions as competitive. Demonstrate that you are worthy of the promotion and willing to accept the added responsibility. Let's end what I've seen of getting promoted just because you showed up.

We should not be holding cadets to higher standards then those listed in 52-16...no matter what the reason.

As for making promotions "competitive"....to what point?  Are you suggesting a quota?  How will this be determined?

"Demonstarating that they are worthy of promotion" is done by completeding the PD training, getting your specialty rating and doing you TIG.

How do you determine is someone is "willing to accept added responsibility"?

The basic problem with all these ideas is that is it tied to the military concept that each job has a particular rank that goes with it, that we will fill theses jobs with those who are ready for them for them and move those who have BTDT to other jobs or force them out.

Sounds good on paper.....A squadron is commanded by a Major, with a Captain or two as his deputies and a bunch of 1st/2d Lts as his staff/worker bees.  A Group is commanded by a Lt Col with a Major or three as his deputies and a bunch of Captains and senior LTs on staff and so on up the chain.

When someone tops out and he is not going to be useful at higher command he is released/retired and we promote someone fill his slot.

If a location does not have someone ready for a particular slot we move an appropraite officer to fill that slot.

Come up with a way for CAP to manage its personnel in that manner...then I would think that talk about making promotions more competitive worth talking about.

Bottom line....our system works well for our organisation.