CAP officers who do not deserve their rank - is it a big problem?

[RiverAux]

One of the issues discussed in the 2nd Lt thread and some other threads is whether or not someone should be promoted after checking all the PD and time-in-grade boxes or whether they should be held to some subjective standard with the potential of not being promoted even after meeting the minimum requirements laid out by CAP regulations.

Those who advocate for the latter must believe that without imposing some subjective judgement on whether someone is worthy of promotion to the next higher rank then we would have a big problem with CAP officers wearing rank that they "don't deserve". 

For the purposes of this discussion, lets leave aside all mission-related and professional appointments and only think about those who gain rank through the regular CAP PD system. 

Now, I fully understand that CAP officially favors the use of promotion boards to make subjective judements regarding  senior member promotions, but in practice, I believe that most senior members get promoted after completing the relevant requirements pretty much as  a matter of course. 

Personally, I tend towards promotions once the requirements are met unless there is some major mistake or regs violation that person has made that would warrant holding them back, but I think those are going t obe extremely rare cases.  Now, if we had some standards for what we expected of people at different grade levels by which we could judge whether someone was worthy, I would re-consider.  But in the meatntime I don't see much evidence that our current system is producing so many people undeserving of their rank that it is a problem for CAP.

[davedove]

With the way the officers grade is used in CAP, I don't really see a big problem with it.  Now, if there was actually some authority associated with the grades, that could be a problem, but it's not the way we currently do things.  Officer grade is really more a gauge of how far someone has progressed in the PD program.

Now, one thing I would say is that some people can manage to get in their "checkmarks" without being all that active.  If someone isn't seen at meeting or activities, but still meet the other requirements, I would be real hesitant to submit their promotion.

[MIKE]

CAP "rank" is a joke... There, I actually said it... Thread over. 

[Cecil DP]

CAP "rank" is a joke... There, I actually said it... Thread over. 

If it's a joke, are you planning on reverting to SMWOG to set an example?

[MIKE]

I traded my captains bars in for Flotilla Staff Officer butter bars.

[flyboy53]

I traded my captains bars in for Flotilla Staff Officer butter bars.

So, that makes your vote and comment null and void.

I don't think it's as big a problem as it could be even though I have personal knowledge of some that I wonder how they got where they are. I wish there was away to take politics out of the promotion process and wonder if that would have prevented HWSRN.

[FW]

Making CAP grade means what it is supposed to mean.  There may be a few who just get it for no real reason however, so what?  Those members usually fall by the wayside eventually; unless they end up as wing commanders

[rmcmanus]

I've been a senior member since September 1984.  Although I have served in 2 wings, region, national (full time) and chartered/commanded  two squadrons, I have found only a handful who didn't deserve their "rank and they were the SMWOG-to-2nd Lt's.

[davidsinn]

One of the issues discussed in the 2nd Lt thread and some other threads is whether or not someone should be promoted after checking all the PD and time-in-grade boxes or whether they should be held to some subjective standard with the potential of not being promoted even after meeting the minimum requirements laid out by CAP regulations.

Those who advocate for the latter must believe that without imposing some subjective judgement on whether someone is worthy of promotion to the next higher rank then we would have a big problem with CAP officers wearing rank that they "don't deserve". 

For the purposes of this discussion, lets leave aside all mission-related and professional appointments and only think about those who gain rank through the regular CAP PD system. 

Now, I fully understand that CAP officially favors the use of promotion boards to make subjective judements regarding  senior member promotions, but in practice, I believe that most senior members get promoted after completing the relevant requirements pretty much as  a matter of course. 

Personally, I tend towards promotions once the requirements are met unless there is some major mistake or regs violation that person has made that would warrant holding them back, but I think those are going t obe extremely rare cases.  Now, if we had some standards for what we expected of people at different grade levels by which we could judge whether someone was worthy, I would re-consider.  But in the meatntime I don't see much evidence that our current system is producing so many people undeserving of their rank that it is a problem for CAP.

If you leave out the mission based promotions I'd be real hard pressed to come up with a person that didn't deserve the promotion. I feel that most of the people that have grade they do not deserve get it through mission based promotions and it's a pretty big problem because they come in and try and take over when they really don't have a clue. I have encountered this many times.

[dwb]

If it's a problem, how exactly do you suggest we fix it?  Demote people that some objective body decides are unworthy of their rank?

If it's not a problem, or there isn't really a solution, then why start a thread about it?

[flyboy53]

I once thought that CAP officers should undergo the same process that Air Force/AFR/ANG officers have to go through to get promoted. They're boarded, complete with photos and OERs. We don't have OERs in the CAP, however, and getting official photos may be a little cost prohibitive even though everything is done digitally these days.

I said something earlier that just fulfilling the requirements and TIG shouldn't mean an automatic promotion and that's the best rule. The other would be for units to abide by their special orders and set a a formal promotion board. Instead of just reviewing a Form 2, have the board meet the candidate and decide if a promotion is warranted.

Too often there aren't a lot of seniors involved in cadet or composite squadrons, which can get pretty busy, so a lot of quality control gets lost in the process. So boarding the promotions may stop a lot of the problem. Successful units do it with cadets, so why not the senior members.

Now if we can get a handle on the politics.

[lordmonar]

I see a lot of comments like this..."Meeting the requirements and TIG is not enough".  What more needs to be done?  Boards?  Okay....but what standard do they use?  If the Squadron CC who is promoting these supposed substandard officers does not know or hold the "standards" why makes you think a "board" will be any better?


The problem here is that we are now kicking the "subjective standard" that no one has defined yet.   Any one who has met the STANDARDS should be automatically be promoted. 

I think what is really the problem is.....there are some who have a different opinion of what the standard should be.

New processes will not fix the "problem"....only defining and communicating the standards will make sure our promtees are meeting them.

[Eclipse]

A continuous thread in my AOR is what, specifically, should be required of members over and above the check boxes, considering that the regulations specifically prohibit adding any objective criteria to the promotion process.

My response has always been that I can certainly give you examples of members who shouldn't be promoted, but absent a negative reason, everyone who has competed their PD and TIG should be moved up.

We have no "up and/or out" in CAP, so acceptance of command roles or moving to higher HQ is out as a consideration.
The minute you ask a question that has a yes/no answer which determines eligibility, you've broken the regs.

I am all for adding weight to the grade, but that requires a full program reboot, and placing additional gates in the way of promotion just
makes things harder on members who really are deserving, while not meaning much to those who aren't.

[davidsinn]

If it's a problem, how exactly do you suggest we fix it?  Demote people that some objective body decides are unworthy of their rank?

If it's not a problem, or there isn't really a solution, then why start a thread about it?

Simple. Remove all mission based promotions. The only promotions are on PD or positional such as WG/CC etc.

[ßτε]

So you are telling me that a CFI who teaches our cadets how to fly and teaches our MP's how to fly a Glass Cockpit and makes sure all our pilots are qualified shouldn't have two silver bars unless they also have completed OBS/ECI 13 and SLS and have a tech rating?

[davidsinn]

So you are telling me that a CFI who teaches our cadets how to fly and teaches our MP's how to fly a Glass Cockpit and makes sure all our pilots are qualified shouldn't have two silver bars unless they also have completed OBS/ECI 13 and SLS and have a tech rating?

That is exactly what I am saying. I wouldn't just say CFIs either, but doctors, lawyers, comms guys etc.

[ßτε]

That is exactly what I am saying. I wouldn't just say CFIs either, but doctors, lawyers, comms guys etc.

And what would be the positive side to this?

[davidsinn]

That is exactly what I am saying. I wouldn't just say CFIs either, but doctors, lawyers, comms guys etc.

And what would be the positive side to this?

What would be the negative?

Positive
People with a clue wearing advanced rank.
Deflate egos.
Make people that are not in those "special" classes feel a little more equitable.
Make our public image a little better due to my first point.

[Eclipse]

That is exactly what I am saying. I wouldn't just say CFIs either, but doctors, lawyers, comms guys etc.

And what would be the positive side to this?

The answer is in your question - what is the point of building lifer Captains?

[lordmonar]

If it's a problem, how exactly do you suggest we fix it?  Demote people that some objective body decides are unworthy of their rank?

If it's not a problem, or there isn't really a solution, then why start a thread about it?

Simple. Remove all mission based promotions. The only promotions are on PD or positional such as WG/CC etc.

I would not necessarily do that.....but I would add the requirment that the advanced promoted (be it pilots, ex-military, what ever) have a limited amount of time to finish the CAP requirments to hold their rank.

That way we keep the ability to attract people with desirable skills but still maintain the integrity of the promotion system.  (i.e. no more Lt Cols with just Level I).