The significance of 2Lt in CAP

[Eclipse]

And a squadron is completely useless ES wise if no one is GES, regardless of their Gill Robb's..

And last I check it was IC's that ran ES stuff...

IC's run missions.

They do not provide training or run squadron programs of any kind unless it is under some other hat.

[tdepp]

And a squadron is completely useless ES wise if no one is GES, regardless of their Gill Robb's..

And last I check it was IC's that ran ES stuff...

IC's run missions.

They do not provide training or run squadron programs of any kind unless it is under some other hat.

Like Mission Pilots, ICs are golden, IMHO.  It takes a lot of work and experience to get to that point and without ICs, missions don't get run.  Again, this goes to what I believe is our mostest important mission of the trio--Emergency Services.  You know, helping and saving people.

[tdepp]

We all like to think what we do is THE most important thing in the organization.

Actually, I have an issue with that statement - I joined to be a part of a larger solution, not to have my part be the most important.

The inability to make that distinction is an issue across the board in CAP, not limited to any one faction - a lot of people have difficulty
understanding that they are a small part of the whole, which is less without them, but not solely dependent on them, either.

No disagreement with you on this point, Chief.  I joined for the same reason.  Not that I have all the solutions or skills but I can help the larger organization with my abilities and skills. 

[Short Field]

Again, this goes to what I believe is our mostest important mission of the trio--Emergency Services.  You know, helping and saving people.

I am sure the Cadet Program has helped and saved a lot more people than ES will ever save.  Giving a kid a goal and a reason to stay on the straight and narrow and achieve something in life is a pretty good mission.  CAP doesn't keep track of the number of kids we have saved but I am sure the CAP Talkers involved in Cadet Programs all have stories of a kid they saved.   

[tdepp]

No offense but I think the "bravo sierra" talk is that in and of itself.

You have the right to think so.  Nonetheless, I stand by what I said - the gist of which is that Captain Epp's attitude seems to maximise aerial ES at the expense of all else - which is not CAP policy.

you quoted Epp's thread in a mannar to suit your own biased argument and lost sight of the fact that he was presenting both sides unbiasedly and brought up some good points.

Unbiasedly?  It seemed to me that Captain Epp paid cursory lip service to AE/CP but exalted aerial ES.

I would suggest you have some bias yourself, perhaps based on the postulation that you know Captain Epp personally?  That's not a knock.  No human being has the ability to be completely unbiased and objective, myself included.

Flying is an important part of CAP's identity and it is that capability that sets us apart from other organizations, however as he was trying to point out that it is a tool of our larger and more important ES mission.

And the ES mission is one of three, along with AE and CP.

But speaking of context you talk a lot about experience but I notice the absence of any ES related ribbons on your signature.  Don't argue modesty, as displaying bling on line negates that anyways.

I have been in CAP since 1993, and have been a member of composite, cadet and senior squadrons.

In that time I have been a Safety Officer, Administrative Officer, Personnel Officer, Aerospace Education Officer, Drug Demand Reduction Officer, Deputy Commander, and whatever else has needed to be done.

I have never been in the sort of ES-dedicated environment you seem to be emphasising is necessary to have an opinion on the subject.  I have only been in one unit that had an airplane.

My ribbon rack as you see it is exactly as worn.

Go ahead and ask our intrepid lawyer friend what him or myself has been doing this last week or so. Believe me, we have no illusions where ES fits into our organization...Also, no need to lecture him on the history of the organization, instead, ask him what other CAP websites he authors, or better yet, read his signature.

First off, I don't answer loaded questions nor allow myself to be baited when I can help it.

If your interests/duties, as well as Captain Epp's, are primarily ES-flying-orientated, your opinion, and it is only an opinion, are likely to be similar that ES, especially Air Ops is paramount.  You would not be the only one to hold such an opinion.

Nonetheless, opinion, whether mine, yours, Captain Epp's or anyone else's, is not policy.

My opinion may well be Bravo Sierra in your estimation.  Nonetheless, it is mine and I do not expect anyone else to agree with me.

This will be my sole reply and rebuttal to you, or to Captain Epp.  If you wish further, PM me, please.

CyBorg:

First, we kill the lawyers. 

I was recruited to CAP, originally, BECAUSE I was a lawyer.  Our then Wing LO was the lone lawyer in the wing and thought it important that other lawyers get involved.  I was impressed by his enthusiasm to be not just a LO but for the WHOLE program.  I then joined and have worked hard to become not just a good and reliable Wing and Squdron LO but as a APAO and MS.  I've also conducted photo and imaging training for our squadron and wing.  I enjoy ALL the aspects of CAP.

But I also have come to my own conclusions as to what our priority mission is.  You might not agree and that's fine. 

I also realize that as a professional, I get promoted more quickly than those who aren't doctors, lawyers, educators, chaplins, etc.  And was that an inducement to join?  Yes, a bit of one.  But I also realize that if I hope to be taken seriously by you and other CAP members when I am in other roles, I need both PD and officer training.  I have taken Level I and Level III and am awaiting taking Level II when my wing or squadron offers it.  I hope to go on to Level IV and maybe even Level V.  Being a captain is nice; being of service to my squadron, wing, region, and nation and the citizen is even nicer.

I recently served on aircrews that flew critical photo and recon missions for the state of South Dakota to monitor and assess flooding.  We performed a timely and invaluable service to my fellow Dakotans who have their homes, farms, and businesses surrounded by flood waters.  Did it solve the flooding?  Was it a piece in helping to solve/mitigate/assist in the flooding?  Yes.

Even in the military or a quasi-military organization like CAP, some people will depend upon positional power to have their way.  The leaders I respect inside and outside of CAP are those who have personal power as well, who know how to motivate, educate, convince, and lead people in a way that gives everyone a stake in the outcome.  I'm not simply going to depend on my "railroad tracks" to do that; I want to be the "go to" person who leads by example and by deed.

Thank you for your many years of service to CAP, CyBorg.  Your contributions are considerable and appreciated.

[davidsinn]

And a squadron is completely useless ES wise if no one is GES, regardless of their Gill Robb's..

And last I check it was IC's that ran ES stuff...

IC's run missions.

They do not provide training or run squadron programs of any kind unless it is under some other hat.

Like Mission Pilots, ICs are golden, IMHO.  It takes a lot of work and experience to get to that point and without ICs, missions don't get run.  Again, this goes to what I believe is our mostest important mission of the trio--Emergency Services.  You know, helping and saving people.

  There is no priority mission. It all must get done so those ES people that have no use for the rest of use better realize that they have it backwards. We're the reason they are here not the other way around. With out people like me in the background MPs and ICs won't have any toys to use or even any missions to perform. MPs and ICs are a tool that the organization uses to complete one of our congressional mandates. That's all.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Thank you for your many years of service to CAP, CyBorg.  Your contributions are considerable and appreciated.

And you as well, Barrister and Solicitor.

S/V.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I am sure the Cadet Program has helped and saved a lot more people than ES will ever save.  Giving a kid a goal and a reason to stay on the straight and narrow and achieve something in life is a pretty good mission.  CAP doesn't keep track of the number of kids we have saved but I am sure the CAP Talkers involved in Cadet Programs all have stories of a kid they saved.

I don't know if I've ever "saved" a cadet.

I do hope that by the mentoring I've done that I can help at least one kid.

[tsrup]

Many of our pilots don't seem to care about rank and PD yet they are probably are most important human resources.  No pilots, no flying, no CAP.

IIRC, there was an accident report released in the last year or so that stated the majority of CAP aircraft accidents were caused by CAP pilots who were only Level I.  I remember there was a lot of discussion about how this was not important or a correct assessment of flying ability since most pilots were at Level I.

Just be happy we have people who want to join and encourage them to learn and advance (and explain why they should advance).  What's on their shoulders is less important than what's between their ears.

And PD is what puts knowledge about CAP between their ears.

I would make a distinction between ES training (very important) and PD (like how to be a PAO) (important, but less important than ES). 

You can't have ES missions if there's no one running the squadron, so the PD "stuff" is critical.

And a squadron is completely useless ES wise if no one is GES, regardless of their Gill Robb's..

And last I check it was IC's that ran ES stuff...

Wrong and wrong. They will have no problem conducting the other two missions without GES.

Without the squadrons there is no organization for the ICs to be members of. All qualifications are approved at the local level and then at higher levels. All ICs do is run missions. All of the background stuff is done by staffers.

I didn't say that a squadron was useless over all, I bolded the part you missed.

And do we have a choice on which missions a squadron does?  Congressionally Mandated = Do whatever you feel like? (not a rhetorical question, a real one). 

In my previous post(s) I didn't really make my position clear.  I do NOT believe ES is the most important mission we have.  I do agree with Epp that ES is what separates us from similar but capable organizations (BSA, JROTC, Young Eagles, etc...), a statement that I believe many misinterpreted. 

I also think that scrubbing a SAREX just because the weather isn't flyable is a tragedy.   

Also, the issue of Support Staff..  You can have all the MSA's, lawyers, PAO's etc.. you want, but without a ground team or an aircrew or both, you are going to find the mission impossible to complete. 
Support staff is important and essential to a smooth running Incident Command, and we need to realize that, but the statements of "Without us you wouldn't exist" is childish whining for attention.  Working together and not arguing over who is the most important is what is going to help us become a better organization.

With that all said, CyBorg.  I believe I owe you a public apology as I berated you in public.  It was not my place to call you out on your credentials as I have done.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

With that all said, CyBorg.  I believe I owe you a public apology as I berated you in public.  It was not my place to call you out on your credentials as I have done.

None required, but accepted.  I don't hold grudges.

[tdepp]

Ok, guys and gals, we're all pretty.     Now let's just go do our "jobs," whatever they may be.

[DogCollar]

Capt. Epp, thank you for your service to your wing and to the organization!

I would like to point out, however, that ChapLAINS are now a part of the regular senior member professional development program.  Chaplains who have a M.Div. degree can come in as a Captain, but must "backfill" level II and complete level III, including TIG before being promoted.

[Rotorhead]

And a squadron is completely useless ES wise if no one is GES, regardless of their Gill Robb's..

And last I check it was IC's that ran ES stuff...

IC's run missions.

They do not provide training or run squadron programs of any kind unless it is under some other hat.

Like Mission Pilots, ICs are golden, IMHO.  It takes a lot of work and experience to get to that point and without ICs, missions don't get run.  Again, this goes to what I believe is our mostest important mission of the trio--Emergency Services.  You know, helping and saving people.

There's the key: YOU believe ES is most important.

That does not make it so. And your belief certainly shouldn't be foisted upon others who disagree.

[tdepp]

And a squadron is completely useless ES wise if no one is GES, regardless of their Gill Robb's..

And last I check it was IC's that ran ES stuff...

IC's run missions.

They do not provide training or run squadron programs of any kind unless it is under some other hat.

Like Mission Pilots, ICs are golden, IMHO.  It takes a lot of work and experience to get to that point and without ICs, missions don't get run.  Again, this goes to what I believe is our mostest important mission of the trio--Emergency Services.  You know, helping and saving people.

There's the key: YOU believe ES is most important.

That does not make it so. And your belief certainly shouldn't be foisted upon others who disagree.

Rotor:
I thought we were having a discussion on a discussion board, where opinions are passionate.  Since I'm in no position to "foist" my opinion on anyone other than whatever small amount of influence I might have in my wing or squadron, you're still free to believe or not believe in whatever you want.  If you think the cadet program is the most important thing we do, good for you.  I like passionate people who believe in what they do.  I just might not agree with whether what they are passionate about is the most important priority in our organization. 

I don't like being told to "stifle myself" when I think I have been respectful to others and have simply stated my opinions without personal attack.  No one says you or anyone else have to agree with me.  The folks who haven't agreed with me have respectfully told me why they think other things are more important and why.  It's called dialogue or give and take. And I appreciate their arguments and it gives me other perspectives to consider.

But Rotor, if I were the national commander, yes, my priority would be ES and within ES, the aviation aspect.  Alas, I doubt I'll be wearing two stars on my sliders any time soon. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But Rotor, if I were the national commander, yes, my priority would be ES and within ES, the aviation aspect.  Alas, I doubt I'll be wearing two stars on my sliders any time soon. 

Except you would have to get Congressional and Air Force approval to change those priorities.

I think we all have areas in CAP's designated missions that we focus on, it's only human to be interested in things that interest us, but I believe it important to keep the "big picture" (cliched as that is) in mind.

That's why I think it's a good thing that I've served in all three of CAP's unit types (composite, senior and cadet).

[Nathan]

Without reading through nine pages of thread...

I am not sure what issue we're trying to solve. We're making the argument that 2d Lt's in the program should be better trained before getting the rank?

Uh... is this a problem with the 2d Lt's? I have seen more than my fair share of Capt, Maj, and Lt Col types walking around with rank on sideways, no real command ability, inability to salute when necessary, etc. It's clear that simply giving a member more hoops to jump through isn't going to fix the issue, and I'm assuming that if we're talking about members with 6 months in the program, these are the issues we're trying to fix.

Don't worry so much about the rank, and focus your rage at the training systems in place. I have seen some phenomenal butterbarred members, and most of them came from squadrons that really invested quite a bit in ensuring that these members had a job, knew what the job was, and knew how to do their job well. You get that down, and I think you'll find all of your 2d Lt problems go away.

JMHO

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Nathan, you make some good points.

I think the comments you make about our training systems and the 2Lt grade are hand-in-hand.

Sometimes our training systems are anything but systematic, coupled with the lingering GOBN tendency in some quarters to just (wink wink), "yup, I'll pass you through for promotion."

[Custer]

What I propose is a universal, not age-based, application of the flight officer program. Whether you join at 18, 21, or 65, you would be expected to progress through this program in order to achieve the rank of CAP 2Lt. I would propose adding additional steps to the Professional Development Program, or at least shifting requirements, so that 2Lt/1Lt/Capt and FO/TFO/SFO no longer share the same Professional Development requirements. What these steps would be exactly, I'm not sure, but the structure would then read SMWOG/FO/TFO/SFO/2Lt/1Lt/Capt/Maj/etc.
Thoughts, comments, etc.?

I always thought the Flight Officer ranks were underutilized.  Rather than limit this to just 18-21 year olds who joined too old to be cadets, they should be a normal part of the rank & grade structure.  If I had the whole thing to do over, I would add the three ranks of flight officer to the beginning of the series and have the last rank gained by education & experience be Captain.   Basically shift everything two grades down, but leave the system and progression otherwise unchanged.

Field grade ranks would be tied to positions held.  Presently this is already done, but only for the rank of full Colonel.  I would suggest expanding that to include all field grade ranks.  Permanent ranks would end with Captain.  A squadron full of Captains is just fine - most USAF flying squadrons actually look like that.

Now can this actually work?  Sadly no - you can't demote the existing field grade officers who will take decades to eventually get out of the system, it would discourage new members who couldn't achieve permanent Lt. col status, and then you have people like me who would actually be a Lt. Col the day I (re)joined even though all I ever did with airplanes is jump out of them.  When I was active in CAP I never got an actual CAP promotion because my US Army rank always stayed ahead of my CAP qualifications.

That having been said, what COULD be done is add in the three flight officer ranks at the beginning of the progression and spread the entire education & promotion system over 8 steps instead of just 5, and just make the last two promotions about seven years apart, like they are in the actual USAF (and as it happens, Army).

[tdepp]

^How about we just do a better job with the training and professional development we already have in place rather than have more ranks, classes, hoops, bureaucracy, and whatnot?  How about mentoring a new member so they learn the "right" way of doing things?  I'm just sayin'. 

[Flying Pig]

^How about we just do a better job with the training and professional development we already have in place rather than have more ranks, classes, hoops, bureaucracy, and whatnot?  How about mentoring a new member so they learn the "right" way of doing things?  I'm just sayin'. 

^Oh my gosh...theres an idea.  You mean something along the lines of enforcing the laws already on the books?  CAP actually has a pretty in depth program if a person really took it seriously and dove into it.  CAP needs to stop trying to equate the gold bar with a miltary gold bar.  We have our OWN promotion process we just happen to use the military symbols.  Heck, where I work, a gold bar means you have about 25 years on and your a bureau commander and the Sheriff wears 4 stars!