The significance of 2Lt in CAP

[OldSalt]

Yes, true, I'm not a member, only making speculation based off my experience with CAP and members with the squadron I'm interested in joining.

I DO wholeheartedly agree that comparing us to military officers is not accurate; we are not commissioned, we are volunteers, and thus do not earn the rank like they do; I mean "officer in this country" to mean "somebody wearing officer rank while existing within the physical agreed confines of the borders of the United States". Officer rank IS special; it's a symbol given a very special meaning in our CULTURE. I have not seen Lt rank handed to ANYBODY in any other organization (firefighters, police, etc.) with six months of "orientation" experience. Officer rank is just that; OFFICER rank. Everybody else who uses these insignia have something in common; LEADERSHIP. The military, police, firefighters, etc. all have a form of "enlisted" or "training" ranks in which they EARN their way up; for OCS and ROTC, they have alternate ranks for those who are LEARNING the basics of their organization. Looking simply at the Professional Development system, you're still "learning" until you're a Lt Col, yes, but you're also not ENCOURAGED to even HAVE a job until you're a 1Lt. Can you tell me that a 2Lt who has JUST finished the necessary training to be around cadets and people in general in CAP is a pillar of leadership? That's like saying a RM Lt who hasn't been through AIT or any officer training is suitable to lead the platoon they would probably be assigned (sorry, thinking Army).

Incidentally, I DID forget the cadet thing, didn't I? Okay, you're ALLOWED to have a bump up too  use the same system that exists now, I suppose? You would just have to catch up on PD before moving on, like cadets having to do CPPT when they turn 18.

I guess that my problem here is that I believe that CAP is handing out something with a legitimate meaning in our CULTURE in such a wanton manner that it seems to have the "easiest" requirements to wear the rank that I know of. If it were up to me, I'd say that CAP needs to use different ranks and insignia, but I'd like to EVER see that happen.

+1 on all accounts.

In the U.S. Culture, military officer ranks are viewed as leadership positions - A Chief of Police wears general's stars on his collar why?...it's not because he's the most trained up person on the force - it's because he is the top dog. someone who looks at the chief in uniform doesn't have to ask if he's in charge - the general officer rank on his collar says he is.

And don't listen to lordmonar, he's just the resident brow-beater here.    (that was a joke for all of you humor-challenged types)

[Short Field]

As opposed to a newbie on the loose? 

[lordmonar]

That's pretty snarky for a 31 poster! 

I like a good argument, as much as the other guy, you just have to remember that some of us have had this conversation before.....and it saves a lot of heart burn if we keep things in perspective from the get go. 

[OldSalt]

As opposed to a newbie on the loose?

Cheesy name, I know, but hey - at least it's memorable.

[RLM10_2_06]

This is all really good stuff; always good to get another perspective on things, especially from those who have been doing this for a long time; to be honest, I didn't know of the EXISTENCE of CAP until two years ago, and I didn't even look into it until about six months ago, so forgive my close-minded and stupid mannerisms and such; I'm just a kid 

[FlyTiger77]

My $0.02:

If Military, active duty=Apple, Red Delicious,
and Military, reserve=Apple, Winesap,
and Military, national guard=Pear,
then Civil Air Patrol=Cucumber

The significance of 2d Lt in CAP is that it is 2d Lt in CAP, signifying that the member has, at a minimum, completed Level I and six months service, and to compare it to any military flavor makes very little sense.

Now, if the proposition is to remake the entire Professional Development program, and a new rank structure is a byproduct, that may make some sense. However, remaking the the entire Professional Development program in order to give a certain rank some enhanced meaning seems to me to be a cart/horse sequencing error.

v/r

[vmstan]

Especially from someone who has not actually completed any of it.

[AirAux]

Does anyone know the percentage of Air Force officers that are in a leadership position??  Most Air Force Officers I know are not in leadership positions, they are in technical positions..  Engineer, Logistics, Medical, Personnel, JAG, Admin, , even Peter Pilots.  There is only one Commander and an XO in each squadron..  Leadership doesn't seem to play such a big deal in the Air Force??  It would appear that we are more in line than out of line..     

[tsrup]

Does anyone know the percentage of Air Force officers that are in a leadership position??  Most Air Force Officers I know are not in leadership positions, they are in technical positions..  Engineer, Logistics, Medical, Personnel, JAG, Admin, , even Peter Pilots.  There is only one Commander and an XO in each squadron..  Leadership doesn't seem to play such a big deal in the Air Force??  It would appear that we are more in line than out of line..   

You don't think that the Officer in CE or in Personnel doesn't in have airmen working for them?  That's a leadership position if I ever saw one.  Medical and JAG are restricted line officers so they don't count.  And pilots end up in leadership positions one way or another.  There are B billets they have to contend with...

I agree with your conclusion and what most people are saying.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
We seem to be straying down the path of "if it ain't broke, fix it till it is" mentality as a whole. 

[lordmonar]

Does anyone know the percentage of Air Force officers that are in a leadership position??  Most Air Force Officers I know are not in leadership positions, they are in technical positions..  Engineer, Logistics, Medical, Personnel, JAG, Admin, , even Peter Pilots.  There is only one Commander and an XO in each squadron..  Leadership doesn't seem to play such a big deal in the Air Force??  It would appear that we are more in line than out of line..   

Just about everyone beyond a certain rank has some sort of "leadership" position.

SrA are usually assigned as trainers.  A1C are assigned as additional duty monitors.

On the non operational side of the officers even 2d Lts are in some sort of leadership position.

On the operational side there are flight commanders, additional duty monitors and other supervisor positions.....so everyone above a 2d Lt has a "job" to give them some sort of leadership experince.

Command is NOT the only leadership role there is.

[AirAux]

Wait a minute, I thought we all agreed that the NCO corps ran the military, so aren't the Sgt's in leadership positions??  I haven't seen very many line officers in the AF doing much in the line of leadership other than leading to the O club..  Seriously, the AF has a different leadership structure than the Army and for good reason.  That is why our rank is more in line with the AF than the Army..  We do our jobs in a professional responsible manner, much like an officer in the AF.  We don't have anyone under us reporting to us.  Most AF officers don't either.  Very few AF officers have ever inspected a platoon/squadron..  Or marched troops..  etc., etc.. 

[tsrup]

Wait a minute, I thought we all agreed that the NCO corps ran the military, so aren't the Sgt's in leadership positions??  I haven't seen very many line officers in the AF doing much in the line of leadership other than leading to the O club..  Seriously, the AF has a different leadership structure than the Army and for good reason.  That is why our rank is more in line with the AF than the Army..  We do our jobs in a professional responsible manner, much like an officer in the AF.  We don't have anyone under us reporting to us.  Most AF officers don't either.  Very few AF officers have ever inspected a platoon/squadron..  Or marched troops..  etc., etc..

NCO's may do the work that get's the job done, but at the end of the day it is an Officer who not only has the authority but also the accountability for the job to be done.

At the end of the day Leadership is about accountability, REGARDLESS of branch or organization.

[lordmonar]

Very few AF officers have ever inspected a platoon/squadron..  Or marched troops..  etc., etc..

Change that to very few AF personnel and you would be spot on.

In my 22 years as an USAF NCO (well 19...3 were spent as an Airman) I can count the times I had to march/drill/inspect any unit after tech school on just my hands.

Even at tech school on the student leaders got do do any drilling/inspecting.

Formal drill is just not something we do all that often......and it shows.

[bosshawk]

Pat is pretty much correct: I have been on a good number of AF bases and I don't ever remember seeing AF folks in formation or drilling.  The AF pretty much leaves all of that drill stuff to the Marines and the Army.

[AirAux]

That's bacuse the job is different and so is the "leadership".  I learned "Follow me" in OCS, but I never heard of that being taught at USAFA or OTS..

[OldSalt]

Maybe that's my error in perception too - thinking like an Army Dog rather than an AF Eagle. However, there is still credence to the whole "Who's in charge" perception when it comes to military-style ranks. In my mind, the one with the most stripes or the largest brass is the one in charge (and accountable) - unless the situation or orders dictate otherwise.

I was taught that the reason for having visible ranks and uniforms in the first place was due to the historical chaotic nature of combat and the fact that someone who may be your boss one minute, may not be there suddenly, and everyone needs to know very quickly who the next in line is to take up the charge. In CAP, we don't have the urgency or randomness of combat operations so I can see how this is not so critical for us.

I think that is probably why I think the Warrant Officer-style ranks for non-command (or in CAP terms - Non-Corporate Officers) fits the organizational and operations structure better - and in my mind would provide our Corporate Officers (read command ranks) with more appreciation from the RM.

But one CAP member's perception on rank is (I'm sure) different from other CAP members perceptions based upon where they come from and their previous exposure to "military officers". Just for the record, I'm fine with wearing my brass the way it is - even if I think there is a better way available. 

[vmstan]

I'm fine with wearing my brass the way it is

You mean cloth stitching?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

You mean cloth stitching?

Nah. Per General Courter's directive, if he has a CSU service coat, he can wear brass on that until September 2010.

[Short Field]

I haven't seen very many line officers in the AF doing much in the line of leadership other than leading to the O club.

Are you just working hard to be rude or is it natural?  Are you some kind of leadership guru who knows what is taught at the AFA and OTS? 

[jimmydeanno]

Does anyone know the percentage of Air Force officers that are in a leadership position??  Most Air Force Officers I know are not in leadership positions, they are in technical positions..

My wife is a brand new AF 2d Lt.  She is a Communications Officer and with less than three months as an officer is in a leadership position.  She is the OIC of an office.  She has 3 SNCOs 4 Amn and 3 Civilians that she is responsible for leading.  All of her peers that just got to the base are in the same type of position.  She is lead by a Capt, who like his peers lead the other Lts in her Squadron.  Her Squadron commander is a Major who is responsible for leading those below him.  But, I think you get the point.