Thoughts on a Commissioned Officer Corp?

[Eclipse]

I guess the bottom line is, there appears to be no middle ground for CAP, either we are joined to the AF and use AF standards, or we are just another civilian organization like the Red Cross, Salvation Army, and UNICEF.

"just another"?

Those organizations have internal issues and external perception issues same as everyone else, but I think being considered in the
same sentence as them would be fine with me, especially the ARC.

[RiverAux]

Our public affairs folks would kill to be as well known as them.

[Major Carrales]

First off, Maj. Carrales, while I respect most of what you say, your snide and quite frankly, naive comments assuming that I'm either a whining cadet because of my "diction", or some fresh off the bus recruit are way beneath you. I could be Gen. Courter for all you know. 

(thought better of it)

I posted what I posted not to degrade you, but rather to give you two perspectives on this issue.  If you took it personally, then I submit that that is your error, not mine.  However, I will apologize.

[Short Field]

My numbers are rough and out of date:  ARC annual budget = $4.1 billion. CAP annual budget = $35 million.   ARC appears to be doing something right - even if they only wear non-standard polo shirts and pants.   

[Fubar]

My numbers are rough and out of date:  ARC annual budget = $4.1 billion. CAP annual budget = $35 million.   ARC appears to be doing something right - even if they only wear non-standard polo shirts and pants.

Do you know the source of their revenue? That's a lot of coin to be getting purely through donations.

[Short Field]

Nope. 

[Eclipse]

My numbers are rough and out of date:  ARC annual budget = $4.1 billion. CAP annual budget = $35 million.   ARC appears to be doing something right - even if they only wear non-standard polo shirts and pants.

Do you know the source of their revenue? That's a lot of coin to be getting purely through donations.

Private and corporate donations as well as the sale of commercial products or licensing their logo(s),  and the sale of blood products and related services.

[Ned]

That's what's wrong with CAPTALK most of the time; as soon as someone's opinion differs from someone else's on here, here comes the pettiness and cheap shots. If you want to discredit someone's opinion, please do it with facts and not mere conjecture, unfounded personal opinions, and just plain old sarcasm.

See, even a new guy with 28 posts (every single one concerning either uniforms and "commissions", BTW) has found us out.

Lots of argument, not so many facts.  Usually because we are fighting over "solutions" to "problems" when there is no consensus that such problems exist.  When we all have different ideas of the "problem," it is probably not very surprising that we disagree vehemently on the "solutions."

So, since you started this, let's go back to begining.

Exactly what problem are you trying to solve with a commissioning program?

Since CAP more or less functions successfully, the burden is on you to show that there is a problem of some sort and that your proposed solution will improve our ability to perform our assigned missions.

Ready . . . . GO!

[Eclipse]

conjecture, unfounded personal opinions, and just plain old sarcasm.

Welcome to the Internet - it can be found under AOL keyword "scary real world"...

[lordmonar]

My numbers are rough and out of date:  ARC annual budget = $4.1 billion. CAP annual budget = $35 million.   ARC appears to be doing something right - even if they only wear non-standard polo shirts and pants.

Do you know the source of their revenue? That's a lot of coin to be getting purely through donations.

Private and corporate donations as well as the sale of commercial products or licensing their logo(s),  and the sale of blood products and related services.

Cost recovery from all the CPR and First Aid classes they teach.

[lordmonar]

That's what's wrong with CAPTALK most of the time; as soon as someone's opinion differs from someone else's on here, here comes the pettiness and cheap shots. If you want to discredit someone's opinion, please do it with facts and not mere conjecture, unfounded personal opinions, and just plain old sarcasm.

See, even a new guy with 28 posts (every single one concerning either uniforms and "commissions", BTW) has found us out.

Lots of argument, not so many facts.  Usually because we are fighting over "solutions" to "problems" when there is no consensus that such problems exist.  When we all have different ideas of the "problem," it is probably not very surprising that we disagree vehemently on the "solutions."

So, since you started this, let's go back to begining.

Exactly what problem are you trying to solve with a commissioning program?

Since CAP more or less functions successfully, the burden is on you to show that there is a problem of some sort and that your proposed solution will improve our ability to perform our assigned missions.

Ready . . . . GO!

+1

And I a guilty of the solution looking for a problem post as well....welcome to the club.

[flyboy53]

I guess I just don't see any merit to a "commissioned" officer corps. What we really ought to be doing is separating the fundraising side away from the mission side -- just like the Coast Guard Auxiliary does it now and just like most volunteer fire departments and EMS squads.

You know, not every officer in the ANG or AFRES is commissioned. Some of them, specifically nurses, doctors, chaplains and Staff Judge Advocates only have appointments. We should be concentrating on that idea of an "appointment" and making our officer corps as professional as possible, especially with the PME stuff.

I know that units at all levels have promotion boards, but I wonder what it would be like if the CAP promotion boards were on the same scale as the Air Force. I think I could measure up to that level of competition -- bet you wouldn't have problems like HWSRN, too.

Sadly, the majority of the membership doesn't have time for formal Air Force-style PME, and honestly, I'm sure there's a time factor in there, too. You can cramp a member with all sorts of requirements and, in the end, we as an organization will face the same manpower shortages that VFDs and EMS squads already feel.

[SarDragon]

Officers say what to do; NCO's get it done.

I guess that is why all the airplanes are flown by NCOs in the USAF?

The last time I looked, pilots didn't do their own maintenance. That's in the realm of the NCOs. That said, I have always been of the opinion that we're all part of the same team, and everyone's contribution is significant.

[ZigZag911]

However, it has always bothered me a bit that, as you say, "any dork with a GED can walk in and pin on Lt bars in six months."  I think there should be more to it than that, but I don't have the answer as to what, and I don't have anything positive and doable to suggest, so I'll leave it at that.

Agreed; now that we have an OBC, that course or a technician specialty rating (don't really care which) ought to be a minimum for butterbars.

What grade to give following completion of Level 1?

Here are some options:

A) None (remain SMWOG)
B) Senior Airman (not an NCO grade in USAF, so we shouldn't have too much trouble getting it approved)
C) FO

[lordmonar]

Officers say what to do; NCO's get it done.

I guess that is why all the airplanes are flown by NCOs in the USAF?

The last time I looked, pilots didn't do their own maintenance. That's in the realm of the NCOs. That said, I have always been of the opinion that we're all part of the same team, and everyone's contribution is significant.

I know Shortfield personally and I can attest that he does know exactly how the NCO and Officer corps work together to get it done.

I think he was just attacking the MYTH that officers don't work.

[lordmonar]

However, it has always bothered me a bit that, as you say, "any dork with a GED can walk in and pin on Lt bars in six months."  I think there should be more to it than that, but I don't have the answer as to what, and I don't have anything positive and doable to suggest, so I'll leave it at that.

Agreed; now that we have an OBC, that course or a technician specialty rating (don't really care which) ought to be a minimum for butterbars.

What grade to give following completion of Level 1?

Here are some options:

A) None (remain SMWOG)
B) Senior Airman (not an NCO grade in USAF, so we shouldn't have too much trouble getting it approved)
C) FO

Now that has been the first sensable suggestion I have heard yet.

But....again......solution looking for a problem.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I never meant to say, or infer, that "officers don't work."  They do.  Their main, though not exclusive, role, is in formulating plans, strategies, etc.  I am sorry if it sounded otherwise.

We, as CAP officers, uniformed civilian volunteers, do the biggest share of the legwork in our sometimes-troubled-but-I-still-love-it little organisation.

If our rank structure remains the same now and always, then so be it.  We work within what we've been granted.

I do agree with ZigZag that there should be a bit more to getting second looie.  What, I don't know.  Maybe a closed-book test on CPPT, CAP's three primary missions, customs & courtesies and the relationship between CAP and the USAF?

As Sgt. Maxwell Q. Klinger once said, "if I had all the answers, I'd run for God."

[Short Field]

I never meant to say, or infer, that "officers don't work."  They do.  Their main, though not exclusive, role, is in formulating plans, strategies, etc.

Pick your service.  The main role of USAF officers is pulling the trigger and killing the enemy.  The number of USAF NCOs directly involved in conducting offensive operations and pulling the trigger is very small compared to the USAF Officers directly involved in pulling the trigger.  Check out the manning in a typical fighter squadron and compare the number of officers to enlisted.  US Army and USMC officers lead men into combat - but they are not the primary trigger pullers, their enlisted troops are the primary trigger pullers. 

The main role of CAP officers is doing everything that needs doing since there really is no NCO corps.  Or are you trying to discuss CADET NCOs and Officers roles in a topic concerning Senior Members? 

[FARRIER]

Let's just keep it like it is.

I second this motion.

[FlyTiger77]

I never meant to say, or infer, that "officers don't work."  They do.

Thank you. I will buy you a Coke the first time we meet! 

My thought on the topic at hand is: It is what it is. Rank in CAP means what rank in CAP means.

v/r