Quote from: Dragoon on September 05, 2007, 05:53:29 PM
Personally, I'd prefer that for both military officers AND NCOs - get credit for PME, and perhaps some breaks on time in grade. 

That's actually a good idea. Would take a little work to iron out the details, but it would reward their experience.

Then again, having a promotion mechanism for NCO's might be nice too. It might seem a little silly to some of them that they could move up through officer grades faster, but if they keep stripes they don't promote at all.

The problem is we have so many ways to get advanced grade you quickly get into "apples v. oranges" land.

I might see an E-9 getting Captain, if we're comparing 15+ years in the service vs 6 for a RM O-3.  But trying to figure out if a Sgt Maj is as useful to CAP as a CPA, Chaplain or professional educator?  Beats me.

Since the bling is one of the few enticements CAP can hand out, it's going to be hard to rein in.

Quote from: DrDave on August 28, 2007, 04:28:03 PM
August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

He can at least wear the SSgt rank until he makes 2d Lt though...

Quote from: jaybird512 on September 10, 2007, 06:51:36 AM

Quote from: DrDave on August 28, 2007, 04:28:03 PM
August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

He can at least wear the SSgt rank until he makes 2d Lt though...

Show me where that is authorized. Unless he applies as and NCO, he wears the same grade as all other SMWOG.

Quote from: arajca on September 10, 2007, 04:12:16 PM

Quote from: jaybird512 on September 10, 2007, 06:51:36 AM

Quote from: DrDave on August 28, 2007, 04:28:03 PM
August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

He can at least wear the SSgt rank until he makes 2d Lt though...

Show me where that is authorized. Unless he applies as and NCO, he wears the same grade as all other SMWOG.

If the personnel officer is any good, the member will be asked if they want it. I'd bet if someone came in and didn't even know the NCO option (provided they were eligible), they'd probably be a little irritated to find out about it later. All the ones I had come in took the option.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 10, 2007, 04:45:39 PM

Quote from: arajca on September 10, 2007, 04:12:16 PM

Quote from: jaybird512 on September 10, 2007, 06:51:36 AM

Quote from: DrDave on August 28, 2007, 04:28:03 PM
August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

He can at least wear the SSgt rank until he makes 2d Lt though...

Show me where that is authorized. Unless he applies as and NCO, he wears the same grade as all other SMWOG.

If the personnel officer is any good, the member will be asked if they want it. I'd bet if someone came in and didn't even know the NCO option (provided they were eligible), they'd probably be a little irritated to find out about it later. All the ones I had come in took the option.

I'm not saying anything about not telling them about the NCO option, what I'm questioning is the statement that the new member can wear SSgt until their 2d Lt get done. If a member goes the NCO route, they have to apply that way. If they decide afterward to be promoted to 2d Lt when they meet the requirements, that's fine. But to let them wear SSgt (or any other NCO grade) if they haven't joined as NCO's is not authorized.

BTW, the one NCO (E-7) who joined my unit declined to take the NCO route. Yes, I did tell him about it.

Correct, >ALL< grades in CAP are appointed by the respective authority.

Nobody walks in the door as "anything", be they RealMilitary® NCO, Officer, or other.

Until proper sigs hit proper forms, everyone is a SMWOG.

Quote from: arajca on September 10, 2007, 04:59:54 PM
I'm not saying anything about not telling them about the NCO option, what I'm questioning is the statement that the new member can wear SSgt until their 2d Lt get done. If a member goes the NCO route, they have to apply that way. If they decide afterward to be promoted to 2d Lt when they meet the requirements, that's fine. But to let them wear SSgt (or any other NCO grade) if they haven't joined as NCO's is not authorized.

No one really "joins" as an officer either, they get promoted later once their qualifications are reviewed. Same for NCO's. NCO grades are shown locally, and not tracked at National. So it could be argued that even with appointed rank, they are still only a Senior Member.

Some years ago, I actually created what I called a "2N" form specifically for NCO promotions. Not a valid National form, but it documented the individuals rank, included supporting documention, and it was kept in their personnel folder in the same manner as an officer promotion. Don't know what I did with it. Up to that time, there was no way to show their "appointment".

Quote from: arajca on September 10, 2007, 04:59:54 PMBTW, the one NCO (E-7) who joined my unit declined to take the NCO route. Yes, I did tell him about it.

I've never run into that, but I don't discount it. I can understand the reasoning though. No reason to force them into something they don't want. And I could see how it could avoid confusion later too.

NCO is a non-standard grade in CAP. You join, you go the standard route unless you request something different, be it NCO, advanced officer grade, ad nauseum. Just because you were/are a military NCO and join CAP, you do not automatically get to wear stripes. The paperwork has to be completed.

National does track NCO grades. See attached screen shot. This is the COWG Director of Personnel.

Quote from: arajca on September 10, 2007, 08:43:21 PM
National does track NCO grades. See attached screen shot. This is the COWG Director of Personnel.

Interesting, I didn't know that. How do you submit paperwork through to get it on National's books?

I believe you submit a CAPF 2 and specify the appropriate NCO grade and enclose copies of the appropriate forms (mil ID w/grade, DD 214).

I think I'll switch to the NCO grades.  I don't plan on being a CC again anyway.

Gentlemen,

When I first posted on this site I thought it would be a conduit for new ideas and a resource for me to engage the membership in meaningful dialogs – a radial idea for someone assigned to headquarters?  That didn't happen and I was very disappointed.  I simply could not cope with the constant going off topic, the endless hair splitting and quibbling, the ill informed, the agenda drivers, and the malicious.  However, I still visit to get a sense of what some of the membership is thinking.

But the post by SAR-EMT1 was more that I could bear and provoked my anger.  SAR-EMT1 could have easily emailed me through this site and asked, "Chief is this true?"  But he didn't.   And true to this site, some one who does not know me, has never met me, and could not possibly have any direct knowledge of the circumstances, chose to muddy the water by bringing up my conduct concerning General Glasgow's demise with a heavy innuendo of being bribed off.  He too could have emailed me thought this site with his concerns as to my character – but he chose not to. Ok, Here are the facts.

I was new to CAP when all that happened.  Members of the Iowa Wing who held General Glasgow in high esteem asked me to defend him, which I did because I trusted the members to be honest, it seem like the right thing to do.  I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.  Other members, with direct personal knowledge of General Glasgow's misconduct, came to me with the truth.  I had been had.  The right thing to do was to swallow my embarrassment and retract my defense of the General.  Whether or not that reflected good or ill on General Pineda was never my concern.

Last November General Pineda visited Iowa to see what we were doing.  Our NCO program particularly impressed him.  He asked me to help put one together for all of CAP.  I turned him down – twice.  I was still smarting over the Glasgow scandal and with CAP so polarized over General Pineda, I figured any NCO program associated with me would be DOA.  I recommended several other Chief's for the program, but General Pindea was insistent.  He took my Wing Commander, Colonel Tomlinson, aside and Colonel Tomlinson advised me to take the position, as it was the right thing to do.

To date there is a headquarters-working group on the NCO program: Colonel Chuck Carr, Chief's Clyde Bowman, Lou Walpus, and myself.  This program is not, and never has been, a vehicle for General Pindea to shove an agenda around.  To the best of my knowledge, no Chief at the Boards were even aware of the Advanced Grade idea for NCOs, we were far too busy with our own program needs.  By the way, I sure would like to meet some of these "venal" Chiefs; perhaps you could slip me a few names.

Quote from: Chief Chiafos on September 10, 2007, 10:59:26 PM...CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor...

Quote from: Chief Chiafos on September 10, 2007, 10:59:26 PM
I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.

[sarcasm]
A GREAT thing for the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the CAP to say!
[/sarcasm]

Anybody have a ClueBird smiley?   

Quote from: ♠ on September 11, 2007, 04:38:33 AM

Quote from: Chief Chiafos on September 10, 2007, 10:59:26 PM
I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.

A GREAT thing for the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the CAP to say!

Anybody have a ClueBird smiley?   

Is he all that off the mark?  He was tasked with developing a program and was marked for attacked and mocked by the two agendistic sides of our last scandal.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 11, 2007, 05:02:31 AM

Quote from: ♠ on September 11, 2007, 04:38:33 AM

Quote from: Chief Chiafos on September 10, 2007, 10:59:26 PM
I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.

A GREAT thing for the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the CAP to say!

Anybody have a ClueBird smiley?   

Is he all that off the mark?  He was tasked with developing a program and was marked for attacked and mocked by the two agendistic sides of our last scandal.

That wasn't the point.  The point was, some things are better left unsaid. 

Is Chief Chiafos on the mark?  You bet he is!  Was it really appropriate for someone in his position to say it on a public internet forum?  No. 

While I share the Chief's pain at our shortcomings, I don't think I'd publically admit to being

"The Command Chief Master Sergeant of a snakepit possessing no honor"

That's kind of like pinning a KICK ME sign on your own back.



(But I'm sure he meant that's it's a snakepit now, but he's gonna fix that.  Right?)

QuoteAnd true to this site, some one who does not know me, has never met me, and could not possibly have any direct knowledge of the circumstances, chose to muddy the water by bringing up my conduct concerning General Glasgow's demise with a heavy innuendo of being bribed off.

I suspect that the Chief is speaking of me at this point.  I did not intend to "muddy the water" and I do have direct knowledge of the circumstances.  The Chief was heavily defending General Glasgow on Military.com, and I was part of the conversation.  I have personal knowledge of Pineda's tactics, having lived with them for the last ten years.  Almost simultaneously with accepting the "Chief Master Sergeant of the Civil Air Patrol" office, an office that did not previously exist, Chief Chiafos did a flip and started criticizing General Glasgow.  I find it hard to believe that a Chief Master Sergeant is politically naive, but Pineda seldom does anything directly, he uses sock puppets.  Thank you Chief for the explanation.  Don't be too hard on General Glasgow until you check the bona fides of those who are preaching calumny about him.  I suspect you will find that they owe Pineda some fealty.

Sigh... It didn't take long for my words to be lifted out of context and distorted.  The snake pit comment was made in context of the vicious politics in this organization over the Glasgow scandal and not to CAP in general, or the membership in particular.  Skyray needs to re-check his time lines.  The dust over Glasgow had long settled before General Pineda's visit to Iowa.  And, after realizing I had been had, I did check the bona fides of my truthful sources and found them impeccable, and beholding to no one.  But of course, no rational explanation will ever satisfy a conspiracy theorist.  I knew when I accepted the job to develop an NCO program that the going would be tuff - anybody have a snake bite kit?  I could sure use one.