So we have this range of grades for Senior Members called "Flight Officers", a category for those Senior Members who are 18, 19, and 20 years old.

Why?

Why does it exist? 

There's nothing in the regs (unless I missed something) that a Flight Officer can't do that a "regular" CAP officer can, other than drink alcoholic beverage while "off the clock".  The reasoning "we do it because you can't become a 2nd Lieutenant in the RealMilitary™ until you're 21" is irrelevant to us, as we are neither RealMilitary™ nor does CAP officers hold a commission.  And I don't buy the "It's so they can learn leadership skills" reasoning either, as we're supposed to assume that there's some sort of intrinsic maturity difference between a fresh-off-the-street 18-year-old and a fresh-off-the-street 21-year-old.

Quote from: Panache on May 22, 2014, 05:07:37 PM...we're supposed to assume that there's some sort of intrinsic maturity difference between a fresh-off-the-street 18-year-old and a fresh-off-the-street 21-year-old.

Which is generally a fair assumption.  The amount of growth and change that happens yearly up a person's early 20's is somewhat remarkable.

The reality is it's another typical CAP compromise, and serves even less purpose then "normal" CAP grade, but provides for plenty of confusion.

If we accept 18-year olds as senior members, they should be eligible for the same grades as any other senior, regardless of grade.

Another reason everyone should start off "slick" with no special appointments or military equivalents and move up organically.

What I was told it was because the AF did not want under 21yo 2d Lts in CAP.

This is just speculation.....but it may just be that...the USAF does not want 18 year old 2d Lts (or higher) out there in CAP land.

That's the story I was told....even way back in '85 when I first joined CAP as a Flight Officer.

It is one of the things that I have problems with CAP's rank and promotion system.

You are right.....if we accept 18 year olds we should allow them the same ranks as everyone else.

I thing the solution though....is not to make them 2d Lts.....but make everyone start at FO's and move up from there. (assuming you don't want to competely revamp the rank system....which we could talk about if you'd like    )

Quote from: arajca on May 22, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
What I was told it was because the AF did not want under 21yo 2d Lts in CAP.

But why?  A CAP Flight Officer, a CAP 2nd Lieutenant, and a CAP Colonel hold the same exact amount of command authority over those in the USAF, Guard, and Reserve:  None.  Zero.  Nada.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 22, 2014, 05:19:46 PM
I thing the solution though....is not to make them 2d Lts.....but make everyone start at FO's and move up from there.

Personally, I think that's a great idea...

Quote from: Panache on May 22, 2014, 05:22:05 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 22, 2014, 05:19:46 PM
I thing the solution though....is not to make them 2d Lts.....but make everyone start at FO's and move up from there.

Personally, I think that's a great idea...

+1 - Where do I sign?

Quote from: arajca on May 22, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
What I was told it was because the AF did not want under 21yo 2d Lts in CAP.

That's what I've heard myself.

It used to be in the military (and may still be, but I doubt it) that you were pretty much "not eligible for a commission" if you were 18 or 19-ish.

(I knew a kid commissioned a Marine 2d Lt at 19 in 2006 after rocking out a BS degree in 2 years. He also had 5500 skydives, AFF/Tandem Instructor  and was a Commercial Multi-engine pilot by then, too... Little bit of an overachiever. I jumped with him when he was 11. His level of "on the ball" at 11 made most 20 year old CAP cadets I know look like drooling morons)

CAP seniors in the 18-20 range were made Warrant Officers back then.  However, when the last USAF warrant retired, CAP got rid of the grade, too, and made them Flight Officers with different insignia (this is circa 1984-1985).  Kind of the same for cadets: A gold pip went from C/WO to C/FO overnight.

If I had to guess, the idea was that the USAF didn't want a zillion 18.5 year old 2Lts (or 19.5 year old 1Lts) running around. Bad enough that you might get a 21 year old Captain with a Spaatz .... (ETA: Back then, a less-than-22-year-old newly-commissioned USAF 2Lt was still pretty rare, too)

Quote from: Panache on May 22, 2014, 05:22:05 PM
But why?  A CAP Flight Officer, a CAP 2nd Lieutenant, and a CAP Colonel hold the same exact amount of command authority over those in the USAF, Guard, and Reserve:  None.  Zero.  Nada.

Image.  Same reason why the Fat and Fuzzies can't wear USAF uniforms.   The USAF does not want to have to answer why some "kid" was "impersonating" an officer.

Again...this is speculation based on what I was told of why we have FO's and why we restrict USAF uniforms.

Yet that same Flight Officer or former C/2d Lt-C/Col) gets an insta-advancement at 21.  So the USAF has a problem with 20 year old 2d Lts, but they don't seem to have an issue with 21 year old Captains who also get insta-Senior CP rated.

Former Insta-1st Lt.

Quote from: MIKE on May 22, 2014, 06:33:09 PM
Yet that same Flight Officer or former C/2d Lt-C/Col) gets an insta-advancement at 21.  So the USAF has a problem with 20 year old 2d Lts, but they don't seem to have an issue with 21 year old Captains who also get insta-Senior CP rated.

Former Insta-1st Lt.

I think those are definitely the exceptions. Not the rule.

Army still does commissions at 19 in certain cases.

I am thinking the Army Air Corps / USAF POV re: grade has changed a lot between 1941 and 2014. 

Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 22, 2014, 07:34:00 PM
Army still does commissions at 19 in certain cases.

Sure.  WO1s fresh outta WOCS

Keep the grades but change it to a sort of "warrant" grade for those CAP members who do not want to go through the issues of "command, management," etc.

Quote from: CyBorg on May 22, 2014, 09:44:33 PM
Keep the grades but change it to a sort of "warrant" grade for those CAP members who do not want to go through the issues of "command, management," etc.

Nah. We just make em NCOs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Quote from: HGjunkie on May 23, 2014, 04:55:49 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Yeah, you might want to read that little note on the first page.  Something about how the article fails to cite any references....

Quote from: PHall on May 23, 2014, 05:21:34 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on May 23, 2014, 04:55:49 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Yeah, you might want to read that little note on the first page.  Something about how the article fails to cite any references....

http://www.goarmy.com/rotc/courses-and-colleges/military-colleges.html

Quote from: HGjunkie on May 23, 2014, 05:42:07 AM

Quote from: PHall on May 23, 2014, 05:21:34 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on May 23, 2014, 04:55:49 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Yeah, you might want to read that little note on the first page.  Something about how the article fails to cite any references....

http://www.goarmy.com/rotc/courses-and-colleges/military-colleges.html

But that's not the wikipedia link you referenced before.   
I'm not arguing the commissioning age question with you, I was just pointing out that the link you referenced was probably not the best one to use.
And since you've now are using a different reference you seem to have received the message.