Quote from: JeffDG on August 12, 2013, 02:16:44 PM
And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

Again, authority in CAP does not derive from grade, but from position.  So, we're sending mixed messages to those other agencies.

The IC says "Launch these planes now...Sir..." but the IC is still in charge.

Other agencies don't care what you are wearing, you tell them who is in charge and they never think about it again.
(Unless you embarrass yourself by arguing about who is in charge.)

Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2013, 03:13:56 PM

Quote from: JeffDG on August 12, 2013, 02:16:44 PM
And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

The IC says "Lunch these planes no...Sir..." but the IC is still in charge.

And the AOBD would reply "With mayo or ketchup?"

Sorry, could not resist...

Flyer

^ Quick on the draw!

What function does a formal system of grade serve?

1)  It can identify individuals who have special training and experience so that they might be asked to serve in positions of responsibility, especially jobs outside the hometown unit where they are not well known. In a million-man army, grade provides a quick shortcut in making personnel decisions.  Hey, we need a new wing commander, give me a list of the 0-6's.

2)  Rank and grade provides a clear sense of authority. That's important in a combat situation in the event of the superior's death. Rank tells you who will take over. In the most dire situations, persuasive leadership can't be used, "Take that hill, please," so rank is a symbol of legal authority to issue commands that, if not obeyed, are subject to legal sanction. The worst Wal-Mart will do is fire you; the DoD can imprison and execute you, literally.

3.)  Grade provided a bridge between civil society's social order and the military organization. Military grade echoed the aristocracy's own rank structure as the nobility would automatically hold officer grade and the great unwashed would not. It wasn't until the prussians professionalized military service in the early late 18th century that grade became an important and formal instiutional feature and the highest grades became open to all, in theory (save for women and gays and Jews, but that's another matter).


I'll stipulate that rank is useful in a military environment, though in some other thread it's worth asking if the 18th century system is still appropriate in the 21st century. The question CAP should ask is if rank is useful in a volunteer, non-combat organization. Some perspectives:

(1)  We've never been able to create a grade system that truly reflects capabilities. A CFO of a big company enters CAP as a SM. How does the system identify him as a candidate to fulfill the Wing's need for a finance officer? It doesn't. The grade system too often gets in the way of bringing the best people to the top.

(2)  While the military sometimes has upside down rank situations, it's a rarity. In CAP, it's commonplace. I'm a long-time member who has served in 6 or 8 squadrons and in only one of them was the highest ranking member the squadron commander. Grade gets in the way a lot. Just ask any captain who is supposedly in "command" of the lieutenant colonels in his unit. Look at our own Ned here, a BoG member and Lt Col providing direction and oversight to a Maj Gen. No wonder the BoG members wear business suits at their meetings.

(3)  Former cadets, as they transition to senior status, often remark that they're surprised by how minor a role grade plays in senior-to-senior interactions. Grade is more real in the cadet setting than the adult setting. For CAP senior members, personal power, technical expertise, and personal reputation matter a lot more than actual grade. In a lot of organizations, wing and higher levels especially, there are really only two ranks -- The Commander and Everyone Else. 

4)  Note that when Department of Homeland Security created the Citizen Corps and VIPS and other volunteer groups with auxiliary-type missions similar to CAP's, they did not choose to create a grade system. Put another way, given a blank piece of paper in c. 2003, DHS went another way than what CAP has used. Interesting.


I'd like to see CAP abandon the military-style grade structure. It'l never happen though, even if everyone were to buy-in to my argument, for the simple reason that no one wants to take away a perk from a volunteer, and that's okay, too. We muddle along. Secondary features of our organization -- uniforms and rank and logos -- have only a modest impact upon the primary feature of CAP -- the missions we perform and the good we do for America.


-sf

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 12, 2013, 03:11:30 PM
Why would that freak me out? It does not matter if he has 5 stars, no stars, 5 grenades, or 10 handcuffs on his collar. If he needs to do the job of a police officer, so be it!

What would freak me out is whether he has to intervene with me because he thinks I may be breaking the Law!

Flyer

Point being, his "grade" doesn't reflect the common understanding of what it stands for.

The last SAREX I attended, one day the IC was a Major, the AOBD was a Captain, and some of the pilots were Lt Cols. Were there any arguments? Not that I saw. This happens all the time. It is who is in charge.

Flyer

USA-

Not really. I understand the more "bling" he has in his collar, the more authority in his department he has. But why should I let that freak me out?

Flyer

One thing that would freak me out is seeing that 5-star doing the job of a police officer, but not coordinating or knowing what he is doing.

Case in point. At the Brooklyn side of the Manhattan Bridge, where the traffic heading south takes the Flatbush Ave. Extension then crosses Tillary Street. A major, major, major crossing, three lanes each direction crossing another three-lanes-each-direction avenue, handled by traffic lights. During rush hours supplemented by three to four traffic cops. Always coordinating, always looking out for each other and pedestrians.

Contrast that to the day I was at the Tunnel to Towers Marathon this year. One street, one lane each direction in front of a mall where runners congregated, were registered, then walked to the starting lane several blocks away. At this place another street one lane each direction formed a "T." No traffic light, only a stop sign. That day two police officers would stop traffic or pedestrians as required to let traffic or pedestrians cross. They worked fine. At some point, a Sergeant took over one of the officers part of the day. The policeman on one side would tell cars to proceed, the Sgt would tell pedestrians to cross. Or one would allow cars on the top of the "T" to proceed and the other to allow cars on the bottom of the "T" to go ahead. No accidents happened, but that really, really freaked me out. A three-stripe not coordinating with a lower-rank. In what is a minor intersection albeit on a marathon day. It is very easy to do. Just look what the other is doing or allowing!

Flyer

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 12, 2013, 03:25:02 PM

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 12, 2013, 03:11:30 PM
Why would that freak me out? It does not matter if he has 5 stars, no stars, 5 grenades, or 10 handcuffs on his collar. If he needs to do the job of a police officer, so be it!

What would freak me out is whether he has to intervene with me because he thinks I may be breaking the Law!

Flyer

Point being, his "grade" doesn't reflect the common understanding of what it stands for.

But it does. 4 stars commonly mean top dog. A chief of police is the top dog. Chiefs have a whole lot of power just like most people whose collars look like constellations.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 12, 2013, 03:25:02 PM

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 12, 2013, 03:11:30 PM
Why would that freak me out? It does not matter if he has 5 stars, no stars, 5 grenades, or 10 handcuffs on his collar. If he needs to do the job of a police officer, so be it!

What would freak me out is whether he has to intervene with me because he thinks I may be breaking the Law!

Flyer

Point being, his "grade" doesn't reflect the common understanding of what it stands for.

NO....the point being....YOU don't understand what HIS grade insignia stand for.  You only assume that YOUR understanding is the "Common" one and the only one that counts.

There are depts. Using colonel, brig gen, etc rank. Am I sure he is the chief, or is there a 4 star around somewhere? A small town may have a guy wearing 4 stars. A huge town may not wear any. Who knows? Same job(wish), different grade.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 12, 2013, 10:58:46 PM
There are depts. Using colonel, brig gen, etc rank. Am I sure he is the chief, or is there a 4 star around somewhere? A small town may have a guy wearing 4 stars. A huge town may not wear any. Who knows? Same job(wish), different grade.

And?

As Flier pointed out......from our point of view....the only important part of his uniform is the part that says "COP" and that he is on duty.

It is not important if a basic probationary patrolman last class has seven stars, 2 galaxies and a twelve pointed riot baton on his collar.....not from our point of view as ordinary citizens.

So why would anyone care what a CAP member at a mission base wears? Ask who is in charge, meet, move on.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 12, 2013, 11:08:12 PM
So why would anyone care what a CAP member at a mission base wears? Ask who is in charge, meet, move on.

You are right.....That's why I have not been in this current round of "why do we have rank" argument.

We got them because we do.   They mean next to nothing to anyone except us.  This guy is in charge.....move on.

That's all I was driving at.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 12, 2013, 11:18:21 PM
That's all I was driving at.

Sorry....I thought you were making fun of some random police chief because his department uses five stars.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 12, 2013, 10:58:46 PM
There are depts. Using colonel, brig gen, etc rank. Am I sure he is the chief, or is there a 4 star around somewhere? A small town may have a guy wearing 4 stars. A huge town may not wear any. Who knows? Same job(wish), different grade.

His badge...says "CHIEF"...

There's no rank in ES, it's position. Matters not if the AOBD is Lt. Col., and the IC is 1LT. Which is the gist of all these replies.

Quote from: a2capt on August 13, 2013, 01:27:44 AM
There's no rank in ES, it's position. Matters not if the AOBD is Lt. Col., and the IC is 1LT. Which is the gist of all these replies.

And it's why I challenged the statement that rank helps us out when dealing with inter-agency incidents.  At best, it's neutral, and at worst, it muddies our actual command structure in the eyes of other agencies.

Assuming they care/know the ranks.