Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2013, 08:08:42 PM

Quote from: doodah5 on August 11, 2013, 07:59:40 PMWould it be a bit awkward for me to wear Capt grade insignia after wearing silver oak leaves in the Navy?

Why are they even related?

Two different, unrelated organizations.

I said awkward, and it would be. Not inconceivable. But your question / statement has to do with another topic, which is more-than-adequately discussed elsewhere.

Well, let's look at boy scouts for a second. They have "ranks." They are not grades, but ranks. The better you do, the higher in rank you go. It's a reward system. Maybe we have ranks in Civil Air Patrol to reward Cadets and to motivate them to get higher rank so they can have greater responsibility.

Quote from: Stegapop on August 11, 2013, 08:15:18 PM
Well, let's look at boy scouts for a second. They have "ranks." They are not grades, but ranks. The better you do, the higher in rank you go. It's a reward system. Maybe we have ranks in Civil Air Patrol to reward Cadets and to motivate them to get higher rank so they can have greater responsibility.

Cadet grades in the cadet program are an indication of progress through the syllabus. The cadet grade recognizes their readiness and motivation to assume greater responsibility. I don't see the grade insignia itself has a motivator or reward.

I would definitely agree that ranks/grades/shinies/whatever have a place in the cadet program. In cadet programs, grades have great potential as teaching tools. However, on the senior member side, we're trying to organize volunteers with mission accomplishment being priority one. PD is teaching, but I have yet to see much in PD that need grades as a teaching tool and not too many adults need shinies to motivate their volunteer progress.

Edited: grammar.

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 08:33:10 PM...not too many adults need shinies motivate their volunteer progress.

That's funny.

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 08:33:10 PM
... not too many adults need shinies to motivate their volunteer progress.

Thanks, I needed that laugh.

Quote from: Ned on August 11, 2013, 04:23:13 PM...
And for the record, we have had military-style grades since we were founded over 70 years ago.  Sadly, we can no longer ask LaGuardia, Curry, or Spaatz why they thought it was important to have military-style grades.  Or even if they consciously made such a decision while modeling their organization on the USAAF which was using military grades at the time. ...

Like usual, Ned got me thinking. Maybe the original concept was to have the highest grade the Squadron Commander and all others fall in behind him.

Fast forward 70 years, we got a 1st Lt as Squadron Commander and their staff consists of a Lt Col PAO and a Lt Col comm guy. Who would have thunk that?   

Quote from: Stegapop on August 11, 2013, 08:15:18 PM
Well, let's look at boy scouts for a second. They have "ranks." They are not grades, but ranks. The better you do, the higher in rank you go. It's a reward system. Maybe we have ranks in Civil Air Patrol to reward Cadets and to motivate them to get higher rank so they can have greater responsibility.

Well now you are comparing apples and oranges. Cadets = boy scouts.

We were talking about Senior Member ranks. I am not sure about boy scouts, scoutmaster rankings. But adult supervision in the Royal Rangers were Commander = Captain insignia and Deputy Commander = Lieutenant insignia. The Royal Rangers National Director wears three stars. Besides camping and all the other fun stuff, you can wear just a khaki shirt or you can put all the bling bling that you want to on that khaki shirt    

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 11, 2013, 06:27:31 PM
Hh-

Yes we are paid commensurate to grade earned.

SM-$0.00
2nd Lt-$00.00
1st Lt-$000.00
Captain-$0,000.00...

Flyer

[darnit], I've been adding zeros to the wrong side of the decimal point!

Just thought I'd throw this out there- maybe some of the reasoning is external to CAP?

For example, in an incidient command situation or when interacting with public service agencies (police, USAF, emergency services, etc), many have an understanding of the US rank systems and/or use modified versions for themselves. They can immediately see a CAP Captain and have a rough idea of the level of responsibility and experience of the individual. It's not perfect, but it's an immediately visible symbol they can relate to.

That also lends credit to why CAP grade is granted for previous military experience (still have that base level of responsibility and management experience) and is not necessarily tied to our own positions internal to our squadrons.

Not sure if I'm on the right track as I only have a year in CAP myself, but it seemed like a moderately defensible position of why CAP grade can be important.

UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 12, 2013, 02:11:06 PM
UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

Again, authority in CAP does not derive from grade, but from position.  So, we're sending mixed messages to those other agencies.

Quote from: JeffDG on August 12, 2013, 02:16:44 PM

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 12, 2013, 02:11:06 PM
UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

Again, authority in CAP does not derive from grade, but from position.  So, we're sending mixed messages to those other agencies.

+1

Quote from: JeffDG on August 12, 2013, 02:16:44 PM

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 12, 2013, 02:11:06 PM
UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

I always hear this one, but I've never actually seen it. So far every IC I've dealt with in CAP has been a field grade officer, most of them were Lt Col. Now I've also worked operations where the AOBD was a full Col while the IC was a Lt Col, so yes the chain can be confusing; but I've never seen the disparity in ranks that you describe.

Jeff-

If you really really saw such a thing happening, did you talk to police or anyone in authority to confirm they were confused?

Or do you think they will be confused?

Flyer

Quote from: jeders on August 12, 2013, 02:40:05 PM

Quote from: JeffDG on August 12, 2013, 02:16:44 PM

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 12, 2013, 02:11:06 PM
UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

I always hear this one, but I've never actually seen it. So far every IC I've dealt with in CAP has been a field grade officer, most of them were Lt Col. Now I've also worked operations where the AOBD was a full Col while the IC was a Lt Col, so yes the chain can be confusing; but I've never seen the disparity in ranks that you describe.

I did exercises as a trainee IC as a 1st Lt (finished shortly before Capt), had multiple field-grade officers on my staff.  Had an IC1 here with Captain's bars on (he's since moved up to Maj)

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 12, 2013, 02:43:42 PM
Jeff-

If you really really saw such a thing happening, did you talk to police or anyone in authority to confirm they were confused?

Or do you think they will be confused?

Flyer

OK, so we have rank so that the police et al can see our level of authority, and that requires no evidence and is self-evident.  But when we, commonly, have those senior in grade reporting to those junior in grade in the ICS environment, that's requires evidence to establish.  Sorry, I never said that they were confused, but if you accept as a given that outside agencies use our grade to establish our authority, then the fact that grade has nothing to do with authority necessarily confuses those outside agencies.

I'm sure people freak out when they see this:



I mean, holy hell, a FOUR STAR POLICE OFFICER!?!?>!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!11111 How big is his department?

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 12, 2013, 03:04:42 PM
I'm sure people freak out when they see this:



I mean, holy hell, a FOUR STAR POLICE OFFICER!?!?>!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!11111 How big is his department?

At least 16...

Why would that freak me out? It does not matter if he has 5 stars, no stars, 5 grenades, or 10 handcuffs on his collar. If he needs to do the job of a police officer, so be it!

What would freak me out is whether he has to intervene with me because he thinks I may be breaking the Law!

Flyer