Let me start off by saying I had to think very for very hard and for very long to try and come up with  a way to field this question in a manner that wouldn't result in my immediate immolation. I couldn't come up with anything.

This idea was inspired by the way USCGAux organizes their membership. I don't exactly know how to feel about this in CAP parlance so I'd like to pick everyone's brains for different perspectives and facts that I didn't even think about.

So, why have military-style grade in CAP?

I wish EVERY question would be so simple to answer...

1. We are the United States Air Force Auxiliary, so we will use that example. Less "reinventing the wheel."
2. We use the AF uniform. No sense using that uniform if there are no ranks to go with those grades.

Flyer

Perhaps instead of explicitly inviting a flame fest, you might start by stating your views on the subject and discussing it with us.  It sounds like you have studied both the the systems used by CAP and the USCGA.  Each have their strengths and weaknesses, of course, and we have discussed them at length here on CAPTalk.

A calm, reasoned discussion is not as amusing as a flame fest.  But it would probably serve both  organizations better.

And for the record, we have had military-style grades since we were founded over 70 years ago.  Sadly, we can no longer ask LaGuardia, Curry, or Spaatz why they thought it was important to have military-style grades.  Or even if they consciously made such a decision while modeling their organization on the USAAF which was using military grades at the time.

But while using a system that includes military-style grades we have saved thousands of lives, trained and mentored over a million cadets, and provided aerospace education to America.

But we can and should examine and discuss every aspect of organization periodically.  That's the best way to continuously improve.

Thank you for your service.

While I've done my best to do my research I don't feel like I've had enough experience in CAP or USCGAUX to have a valuable opinion, seeing as I've been in both for less than a year.

I guess it couldn't hurt too much to share my incomplete opinion. From what I've gotten, the ranks don't really serve a purpose here. I've never experienced a time in CAP where we've needed Jonny on the spot to take charge because there was no clear CoC set in place. Like you said, we've succeeded for a long time with ranks and at this point in time it kind of seems like a "What problem are we trying to solve?" case. This question probably would have been more useful if asked during the founding of CAP as "What problem are we trying to solve by using ranks?"

Keeping that in mind, this thread is meant to be more of a philosophical-ish? discussion on the use of ranks in CAP since we're not really trying to solve a huge problem; merely asking why.

We don't have "ranks", we have grades.

Currently, the grade system is primarily used to recognize professional development within CAP, or professional skills brought to the table for CAP's advantage.

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 04:48:34 PMKeeping that in mind, this thread is meant to be more of a philosophical-ish?

Search is your friend.

Using the USCGAUX as an example to drop grade titles doesn't hold up in my experience.  It does not fix "the problem. "

Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2013, 04:50:21 PM
We don't have "ranks", we have grades.

Currently, the grade system is primarily used to recognize professional development within CAP, or professional skills brought to the table for CAP's advantage.

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 04:48:34 PMKeeping that in mind, this thread is meant to be more of a philosophical-ish?

Search is your friend.

Ah, see now I'm a little confused. From my understanding the term "rank" is simply grade adjusted for time. Is that incorrect?

That's the basic idea, but not a concept used in CAP, except on a rare occasion with cadets in regards
to applying for an NCSA or similar.

All equal grades are equal in CAP, and from a practical perspective, all grades are equal, since, just like the
CGAUX, all authority comes from appointment, and is unrelated to grade.

Generally, the only time there is a problem is with inexperienced members, easily corrected.

Now, that doesn't make the grade structure useless, since the one thing it does carry in CAP is an expectation of performance.  Members are expected to have program knowledge and participation at least equal to what they have on their shoulder.

Nothing speaks more loudly about a member's ability, knowledge, experience, and attitude then the first few paragraphs out of their mouth filtered through their grade insignia.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2013, 05:34:25 PM
That's the basic idea, but not a concept used in CAP, except on a rare occasion with cadets in regards
to applying for an NCSA or similar.

All equal grades are equal in CAP, and from a practical perspective, all grades are equal, since, just like the
CGAUX, all authority comes from appointment, and is unrelated to grade.

Generally, the only time there is a problem is with inexperienced members, easily corrected.

Now, that doesn't make the grade structure useless, since the one thing it does carry in CAP is an expectation of performance.  Members are expected to have program knowledge and participation at least equal to what they have on their shoulder.

Nothing speaks more loudly about a member's ability and knowledge then the first few paragraphs out of their mouth filter through their grade insignia.

All right, so correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that grade insignia in CAP are basically fancy skill badges that go on our shoulders.

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 05:42:56 PM
All right, so correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that grade insignia in CAP are basically fancy skill badges that go on our shoulders.

No, it's more then that.

Search is your friend, we don't need to re-discuss this again.

Greetings & Salutations! Many adults want to have a rank and some even want to have ribbons and whatever badges they can add to their uniforms. As far as I know, no one gets paid and they not only buy their own uniforms, they also pay yearly dues and in turn donate their time and talent. Now the U.S. Air Force may recruit or commission many because they have good benefits all the way around, true? Like the C.A.P., there are people who volunteer for the Coast Guard Auxiliary, maybe a few like to wear a uniform, hold a title and be awarded ribbons now and then? Of course its my understanding the Marine Corp League has enlisted ranks for those under 18 while adults do not have rank, is that correct? Rank and ribbons are for the cadets, of course Marines are motivated beyond us mere mortals. As for myself, only the Army would accept me as I was not up to par for the Corps, but I greatly respect them just the same! In the C.A.P. I wore an Army Good Conduct Medal (ribbon) and the National Defense Service Medal (ribbon) and wore Air Force Master Sergeant chevrons, the old style with six below, not 5 below with an upward chevron. When I went back into the C.A.P. I wore mostly civilian attire and sometimes a jump suit without rank. Cannot speak for others why they are attracted to the serve? Could some be for ribbons and ranks? I do not know? Respectfully, Herbert Booker of Palm Coast, Florida

Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2013, 05:46:25 PM

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 05:42:56 PM
All right, so correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that grade insignia in CAP are basically fancy skill badges that go on our shoulders.

No, it's more then that.

Search is your friend, we don't need to re-discuss this again.

Am I not using the right search terms, because I'm not finding threads on the usefulness of grade in CAP?

Hh-

Yes we are paid commensurate to grade earned.

SM-$0.00
2nd Lt-$00.00
1st Lt-$000.00
Captain-$0,000.00...

Flyer

Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2013, 04:50:21 PM
We don't have "ranks", we have grades.

I know that CAPR 35-5 doesn't mention ranks, but grades and CAPM 39-1 refers to grade insignias, not rank insignias. In the Air Force, however, 1st Lt, Capt and Maj, for example, refer to rank, while O-2, O-3 and O-4 refer to grade (pay grade to be more exact). My only guess is that CAP doesn't refer to these as ranks because in the military rank implies a degree of seniority and authority. Furthermore, there's no need to distinguish between rank and grade (in the military a grade may have more than one rank associated with it).

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 11, 2013, 04:04:30 PM
1. We are the United States Air Force Auxiliary, so we will use that example. Less "reinventing the wheel."
2. We use the AF uniform. No sense using that uniform if there are no ranks to go with those grades.

The Academy of Military Science (AMS), the officer training school for Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve, used rank insignias in a similar fashion as the Coast Guard Auxiliary for its officer trainees. They were based on position held; the higher the position, the higher the rank insignia. I think it's an interesting concept.

CAP uses grades and grade insignias to show professional development progression within CAP. Grade may signify experience and longevity, although that's not always the case. Is it necessary? Probably not; there are (or could be) other ways to show this progression. But rank or grade insignias have been part of CAP almost from the beginning. Unless there was a big push from the Air Force not to use them, I doubt CAP would go out of its way to change this.

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 11, 2013, 06:27:31 PM
Hh-

Yes we are paid commensurate to grade earned.

SM-$0.00
2nd Lt-$00.00
1st Lt-$000.00
Captain-$0,000.00...

Flyer

Don't forget:

Major- 00,000.00
Lt. Col.- 000,000.00
Col- 0,000,000.00
Brig. Gen.- 00,000,000.00
Maj. Gen.- 000,000,000.00

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 05:49:47 PM
Am I not using the right search terms, because I'm not finding threads on the usefulness of grade in CAP?

You must not be, because it's about 50% of the discussions here.

Same thing, over and over.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2013, 07:33:09 PM

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 05:49:47 PM
Am I not using the right search terms, because I'm not finding threads on the usefulness of grade in CAP?

You must not be, because it's about 50% of the discussions here.

Same thing, over and over.

Feed a man a fish? Link, please.

There's probably no strongly defensible reason to retain our grade structure (nor is our current structure harmful).

Philosophizing, we could easily temporarily grant senior member grade based on rank or position as it is at the Wing Command and higher level. For example:

Dept Head (Ops O, etc): 1st Lt
Deputy Commander: Capt
Squadron Commander: Maj
Group CC: Lt Col
Wing CC: Col

I'm wearing Lt Col because I was an O-5 before I retired from the Navy, I'm active in my squadron, and the approval authority agreed that I'm contributing appropriately. My CC is a 1st Lt. Would it be a bit awkward for me to wear Capt grade insignia after wearing silver oak leaves in the Navy? Yes, but not if there was an established and meaningful grade structure aligned as above, that applied to everyone and communicated the level of authority entrusted to the person wearing the insignia by the organization.

Quote from: Archer on August 11, 2013, 07:42:10 PM
Feed a man a fish? Link, please.

http://captalk.net/index.php?action=search

Quote from: doodah5 on August 11, 2013, 07:59:40 PMWould it be a bit awkward for me to wear Capt grade insignia after wearing silver oak leaves in the Navy?

Why are they even related?

Two different, unrelated organizations.