Quote from: Eclipse on July 13, 2013, 01:07:30 AM
Too bad you can't get that kind of information on the internet...

Much "information" on the internet is incorrect. Much of it has commercial bias. Need an example? Google "colon cleansing". Medically useless, even dangerous but if you believe the internet it's an epidemic of major proportions.

Much incorrect information on the web is generated by the proverbial guy sitting around in his underwear all day because he has no life.

There are some reliable site for information but many more unreliable ones.

I agree.  That doesn't make it CAP's place to be seen as a source for that type of information.

You are also free to provide that, at any level you like, without the mantle of a staff position or specialty track within CAP.
In fact, without that, there are no constraints on what you can provide or how you inform.

People ask me all the time about IT and motorcycle safety issues, those are my professional wheelhouse.
I am neither an ITO nor a CAP driving instructor.  They ask anyway.

Or are you saying "no pin, no info"?

Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

No need for a doctor. Its chicken pox.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 13, 2013, 04:20:22 AM
No need for a doctor. Its chicken pox.

Or an attack by the Giant Hogweed.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 13, 2013, 04:12:00 AM
Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

Your example is fundamentally different. The above provided examples were health information. The situation you describe requires diagnosis which is medical treatment.

However, if a Cadet came to me who needed medical treatment and told me that his/ her parents could not afford medical care, I could and would direct the Cadet to institutions that provide free or low cost medical care.

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 14, 2013, 02:08:52 AM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 13, 2013, 04:12:00 AM
Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

Your example is fundamentally different. The above provided examples were health information. The situation you describe requires diagnosis which is medical treatment.

However, if a Cadet came to me who needed medical treatment and told me that his/ her parents could not afford medical care, I could and would direct the Cadet to institutions that provide free or low cost medical care.

So you would send the child to these providers rather than inform the parents about these facilities and let them decide?

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on July 14, 2013, 02:32:31 AM

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 14, 2013, 02:08:52 AM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 13, 2013, 04:12:00 AM
Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

Your example is fundamentally different. The above provided examples were health information. The situation you describe requires diagnosis which is medical treatment.

However, if a Cadet came to me who needed medical treatment and told me that his/ her parents could not afford medical care, I could and would direct the Cadet to institutions that provide free or low cost medical care.

So you would send the child to these providers rather than inform the parents about these facilities and let them decide?

You make a valid point. It would depend on the age of the cadet and the medical issue as to whether I would inform the parents or the cadet only. Under certain circumstances, the cadet's wishes would control.

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 14, 2013, 02:53:55 AM

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on July 14, 2013, 02:32:31 AM

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 14, 2013, 02:08:52 AM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 13, 2013, 04:12:00 AM
Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

Your example is fundamentally different. The above provided examples were health information. The situation you describe requires diagnosis which is medical treatment.

However, if a Cadet came to me who needed medical treatment and told me that his/ her parents could not afford medical care, I could and would direct the Cadet to institutions that provide free or low cost medical care.

So you would send the child to these providers rather than inform the parents about these facilities and let them decide?

You make a valid point. It would depend on the age of the cadet and the medical issue as to whether I would inform the parents or the cadet only. Under certain circumstances, the cadet's wishes would control.

And this is exactly the gray areas that CAP must stay away from...

Quote from: NCRblues on July 14, 2013, 05:34:27 AM

So you would send the child to these providers rather than inform the parents about these facilities and let them decide?

You make a valid point. It would depend on the age of the cadet and the medical issue as to whether I would inform the parents or the cadet only. Under certain circumstances, the cadet's wishes would control.
[/quote]

And this is exactly the gray areas that CAP must stay away from...
[/quote]

If by "grey area" you mean that the decision is up to the HSO's discretion, you are mistaken.

State laws vary but most states provide that minors can receive certain medical treatments without the permission or knowledge of their parents.  Your unit legal officer should be aware of what the law is in your state.

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 14, 2013, 11:13:27 PMState laws vary but most states provide that minors can receive certain medical treatments without the permission or knowledge of their parents.  Your unit legal officer should be aware of what the law is in your state.

More examples of why CAP needs to stay completely out of the health services and information area.

So now you're advocating that legal should get involved on whether or not a CAP HSO should be providing information to cadets.

Seriously, you want a poop storm that ends memberships?  Start providing information or services to cadets without their parents knowing it
and then wave some legal flag that says it's OK.

Good.

Luck.

With.

That.

Yep.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 14, 2013, 11:24:21 PM

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 14, 2013, 11:13:27 PMState laws vary but most states provide that minors can receive certain medical treatments without the permission or knowledge of their parents.  Your unit legal officer should be aware of what the law is in your state.

More examples of why CAP needs to stay completely out of the health services and information area.

So now you're advocating that legal should get involved on whether or not a CAP HSO should be providing information to cadets.

Seriously, you want a poop storm that ends memberships?  Start providing information or services to cadets without their parents knowing it
and then wave some legal flag that says it's OK.

I'll try to raise the level of discourse from your "poop" level.

Most states have laws that allow minors to receive medical treatment without their parent's consent or knowledge under very special circumstances. In my state this includes situations where the minor is the victim of family sexual abuse. State laws vary.

If a cadet alleged this, I would provide information on where he/ she could receive confidential medical treatment.  It would be my duty. If a cadet found it necessary to reveal this to me, it would be because I'm the only adult he/ she could trust, which is not unusual in cases of family sexual abuse.

Eclipse is opposed to providing this information to the victim because he's concerned that parents would object. I find this despicable.

That's the last I have to say on this topic, particularly to Eclipse.

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 15, 2013, 08:00:16 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 14, 2013, 11:24:21 PM

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 14, 2013, 11:13:27 PMState laws vary but most states provide that minors can receive certain medical treatments without the permission or knowledge of their parents.  Your unit legal officer should be aware of what the law is in your state.

More examples of why CAP needs to stay completely out of the health services and information area.

So now you're advocating that legal should get involved on whether or not a CAP HSO should be providing information to cadets.

Seriously, you want a poop storm that ends memberships?  Start providing information or services to cadets without their parents knowing it
and then wave some legal flag that says it's OK.

I'll try to raise the level of discourse from your "poop" level.

Most states have laws that allow minors to receive medical treatment without their parent's consent or knowledge under very special circumstances. In my state this includes situations where the minor is the victim of family sexual abuse. State laws vary.

If a cadet alleged this, I would provide information on where he/ she could receive confidential medical treatment.  It would be my duty. If a cadet found it necessary to reveal this to me, it would be because I'm the only adult he/ she could trust, which is not unusual in cases of family sexual abuse.

No, you wouldn't. You would report it to law enforcement and, if it involves CAP in any way to your chain of command. Period, end of story. If you want to give advice, you do it on your own time, separate from CAP.

QuoteEclipse is opposed to providing this information to the victim because he's concerned that parents would object. I find this despicable.

That's the last I have to say on this topic, particularly to Eclipse.

No, he's not. He is a dedicated member with many years of command experience who is trying to prevent lawsuits caused by well meaning members who ignore the fact that we live in a highly litigious society.

Why would someone take on the responsibility of providing medical advice to anyone, knowing that the organization doesn't have your back? Provide basic first aid; stop the bleeding and call 911. That's the extent of medical service needed.

Sorry to add fuel to the fire, but with only a couple of exceptions, every HSO I've encountered used the position for a quick promotion and actually did nothing. That certainly doesn't help the cause.

Quote from: RNOfficer on July 15, 2013, 08:00:16 AM
If a cadet alleged [family sexual abuse], I would provide information on where he/ she could receive confidential medical treatment.  It would be my duty. If a cadet found it necessary to reveal this to me, it would be because I'm the only adult he/ she could trust, which is not unusual in cases of family sexual abuse.

Eclipse is opposed to providing this information to the victim because he's concerned that parents would object. I find this despicable.

That's the last I have to say on this topic, particularly to Eclipse.

CAPR 52-10 states that members "should immediately report incidents of observed or suspected abuse to the unit commander or commander at the next higher level of command." Furthermore, "[m]embers having knowledge of abuse must follow reporting requirements under their state's laws."

CAPR 160-1 states that "CAP is not a health care provider, and CAP members are not permitted to act in the role of health care providers during the performance of official CAP duties." The only medical care that can be provided "within CAP is limited to emergency first aid and may be provided only by members with appropriate training and experience.

It seems to me that Eclipse was just addressing the fact that what you suggest is NOT allowed within CAP as it goes beyond our mission, scope and what we're allowed to do as members.

Except in the case of a thread devolving to outright abusive language, cyber bullying, etc., I would never advocate for a thread to be locked...  Instead, I believe the most effective (and First Amendment-friendly) method to end a repetitive cranium-meet-wall situation, is to simply stop engaging or replying to the poster in question.  And I do believe that is the best course of action here.

But--holy smokes!--talk about someone Simply. Not. Getting it...

Ma'am (sir?), thank you for your continued service to the Civil Air Patrol.  Out.

Quote from: Nuke52 on July 15, 2013, 09:52:48 PM
Except in the case of a thread devolving to outright abusive language, cyber bullying, etc., I would never advocate for a thread to be locked...  Instead, I believe the most effective (and First Amendment-friendly) method to end a repetitive cranium-meet-wall situation, is to simply stop engaging or replying to the poster in question.  And I do believe that is the best course of action here.

But--holy smokes!--talk about someone Simply. Not. Getting it...

Ma'am (sir?), thank you for your continued service to the Civil Air Patrol.  Out.

Yeah, I feel the same way about Eclipse too...


Oh you meant the OP.

...nice...

I am interested in networking with health professionals. I have been an RN for 30 years, retired from the Natl Guard as an O/4 and have been a member of CAP for about a year without being assigned as an HSO. I note that there is no health services representation at the National Convention this year.I am wondering if the wealth of education and social skills of health services is not being wasted by the obsession of paramilitarism. I have served in various community organizations without much emphasis on uniform and decorations and have actually got quite a lot done. We might learn lessons from military "auxillaries" that were epic fails.