Quote from: EMT-83 on April 02, 2010, 02:30:53 AM
Our local policy on special promotions requires all requirements except TIG be met.

I have a retired Army Captain who is still a Senior Member. He just completed SLS, so his promotion is now being processed. Same for the Instrument rated pilot who hasn't gotten around to finishing his Form 5 – no mission related promotion.

It's important to promote those eligible, but within reason. Handing out promotions when people walk in the door removes any incentive to work the program.

I really do believe that such a policy violates CAPR 35-5 Section 1-1:

Quote1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Not all promotion methods require PD beyond Level I. So for special promotions, mission related skills promotions, and professional appointments/promotion, you need to use the criteria for those promotion methods and not include extra requirements that are used for duty performance promotions. Adding PD requirements and/or duty performance requirements to mission related skills promotion criteria when none exist shouldn't be done. It really is analogous to requiring at least one mission related skill for every promotion including duty performance promotions.

This doesn't mean you have to promote a new member who is a pilot just because he finished Level I. The member must be using his mission related skill to be eligible for promotion. But if the pilot has done his Form 5 and is on the way to being a mission pilot, there should be no reason not to promote just because he is not working in a specialty track.

Yes, it is important to promote those who are eligible. But we must use the eligibility criteria listed in CAPR 35-5 and not make up our own just because we think that every officer should complete PD. This is contrary to the regulation. If you read the regulation carefully, you will find that our national leaders believe that there are many different reasons to promote our members. Not all of them require PD beyond Level I. Otherwise it would have been included in the regulation.

This is not to say that commanders should be giving out promotions left and right. They should evaluate each member and determine if the member meets the promotion criteria. If the member meets the eligibility criteria, the member should be promoted unless there is some reason that the member shouldn't be promoted. But that reason shouldn't be just because the member hasn't met PD levels which aren't required for that promotion method. What I guess I am trying to say is that promotions for whatever promotion method is used, that the criteria for that promotion method be the only criteria and not criteria from any other promotion method.

Quote from: AirAux on April 02, 2010, 03:17:28 AM
Adding requirements outside of Reg's or demotion is way out of line and liable to get your tail removed from command.  The Reg's are not a guideline, they are the Reg's and to be obeyed..

This is in the reg: "d. The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."

A prospective member that walks in this month, and is a member by the following month hasn't really been given the time to really contribute. I wouldn't have signed off a promo that soon either. A few months isn't too much to ask. If the member is truly deserving and motivated to contribute, it's doubtful that they would mind. It's the ones that walk in saying "I've got this and this, what does it get me?" that can end up problematic.

This organization is just as much about service as the military is.

We're probably more in agreement that you think. I didn't say that the pilot must be a Mission Pilot, only that he completes his Form 5. For a CFI, he needs to get signed off as CAP CFI. Not that this is specifically required by the regulation, but it's common sense.

With other types of promotions, it's working with the individual member. That includes using PME and applicable degrees. So, for the retired Captain we might discover that his PME covers most of the requirements through Level IV.

Somewhere, you need to strike a balance. I've had both pilots and prior service prospective members walk in and expect a promotion almost before submitting an application. I also know of pilots who were promoted long ago, but never once flew a CAP aircraft. By setting expectations early, and applying them uniformly, you get a member who buys into the program and becomes a productive member.

Not getting mission skills and professional skills members involved in PD is how we end up with the flying club/GOB mentality.

Professional Development should be STRONGLY encouraged for all senior members!!

Quote from: SarDragon on April 02, 2010, 05:12:24 AM
Not getting mission skills and professional skills members involved in PD is how we end up with the flying club/GOB mentality.

I know it is not what you meant, but what you wrote implies to me that "mission skills and professional skills members" are a different kind of member than the rest of us. They are not. What we have in this organization is a membership with a wide variety of skills and experiences. Our leadership has acknowledged that many of those skills warrant promotion to officer grades without regard to PD level. Our leadership has also acknowledged that PD is an integral part to the requirements for duty performance promotions.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "flying club/GOB mentality." To me, a 'flying club mentality' would be the expectation of being able to use an aircraft for personal or recreational use. If this is happening, it is not because members are getting promoted who haven't completed Level II. It would be due to a leadership failure and a failure of the flight release system. Even if promotions are a factor, it would be because the member isn't "contributing these skills to the CAP mission" as is required in the regulation. It is not because of PD or lack thereof.

By "GOB mentality," do you mean that pilots think they are more important than others simply because they are pilots and therefore only associate with other pilots? If so, requiring PD for promotion for mission related skills is not going to change this. Again, if this is happening at a squadron, it is a leadership failure not having to do with promotions.

Quote from: DogCollar on April 02, 2010, 10:49:19 AM
Professional Development should be STRONGLY encouraged for all senior members!!

I STRONGLY agree, but there is a difference strongly encouraging and adding a requirement when no such requirement exists.

Quote from: bte on April 02, 2010, 01:09:05 PM

Quote from: DogCollar on April 02, 2010, 10:49:19 AM
Professional Development should be STRONGLY encouraged for all senior members!!

I STRONGLY agree, but there is a difference strongly encouraging and adding a requirement when no such requirement exists.

I think some of it should be required actually.  I do believe in advanced appointments for professional and mission critical disciplines; however, without professional development there is the danger that these skills and disciplines are not used to their full potential because there is an information vaccuum.  I would require a minimum of level II so that they are proficient in utilizing their skills at the squadron level.

Quote from: DogCollar on April 02, 2010, 01:17:29 PM

Quote from: bte on April 02, 2010, 01:09:05 PM

Quote from: DogCollar on April 02, 2010, 10:49:19 AM
Professional Development should be STRONGLY encouraged for all senior members!!

I STRONGLY agree, but there is a difference strongly encouraging and adding a requirement when no such requirement exists.

I think some of it should be required actually.  I do believe in advanced appointments for professional and mission critical disciplines; however, without professional development there is the danger that these skills and disciplines are not used to their full potential because there is an information vaccuum.  I would require a minimum of level II so that they are proficient in utilizing their skills at the squadron level.

Good. But we need a change in National policy in order to implement it. Please submit your proposal through the chain of command so the NB or NEC can make the policy change.

If you have a retired Army Captain that is a senior member and you made him complete his SLS prior to promotion to Captain, you are out of the Reg's and should be relieved of command..  I am really, really tired of the ego driven cowboys that are way beyond their authority and give CAP a bad reputation.  The Reg's are there and anybody can read them.. I would think that anyone in your squadron that has read the Reg's would think you are out of line and should be replaced.  If your Group Commander can't handle you, I would think the Wing Commander or IG could.. 

Apparently the Wing CC doesn't agree, as he was consulted in the matter.

As much as it may offend you, the commander is not required to grant automatic promotions.

Two wrongs do not make a right.  Unless there is something you have not disclosed, you have gone above and beyond the Reg's and in doing so have insulted a retired military officer by having him jump through hoops of your own choosing/making.  Usually, when I see this type of thing it is when the person doing so has not earned their rank the hard way.  Now, looking at your sign in as an EMT, I might question whether you got your rank through your EMT or through becoming a Squadron commander, or how..  If you have found a deficiency in our Reg's, you need to write it up and submit it for change..  National specifically dislikes additions to or detractions from teh Reg's at any level other than their own.. And rightfully so..  If your Captain showed up at my squadron, I would advise him that you were jerking his chain and show him the Reg's..

THIS_LINK

The only Promotion system I know of in place by any Wing Commander.  It seems somewhat unfair, and unjust, but it is in this Colonel's right as Wing Commander.

I looked at other Wing Websites, but could not find any, or they are just not kept on line

No, it isn't within his rights. You can make regulations more strict, but you cannot contradict them. NYWG had a similar policy that was rescinded.

^ I must have read the rules wrong then.

So you have a new member with prior service. It was like pulling teeth to get Level I done, he won't wear a uniform, won't come to meetings or partipate in squadron activities. This does not preventing him from demanding the promotion he "deserves" due to his prior rank.

None of these details were important to the topic. Thanks for jumping to conclusions and throwing me, and the Wing CC, under the bus.

Quote from: AirAux on April 02, 2010, 02:11:46 PM
If you have a retired Army Captain that is a senior member and you made him complete his SLS prior to promotion to Captain, you are out of the Reg's and should be relieved of command..  I am really, really tired of the ego driven cowboys that are way beyond their authority and give CAP a bad reputation.  The Reg's are there and anybody can read them.. I would think that anyone in your squadron that has read the Reg's would think you are out of line and should be replaced.  If your Group Commander can't handle you, I would think the Wing Commander or IG could..

I appears you're making an assumption that people are requiring the later levels before the promotion. No one is advocating that.

What is being proposed is that a person with an advanced promotion should have to meet PD requirements eventually within a reasonable timeframe, after a reasonable period of time is given to show that the person is contributing their skills to show they're worthy of the promotion. It's really not too much to ask, and avoids people getting advanced rank just to get advanced rank.

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I spoke to the member (a retired Army Guard colonel) I mentioned earlier who's advancing through the CAP promotion system and has declined the opportunity to promote based on his military status. He believes that a requirement for people with advanced promotions to "catch up" is a good one. I asked him about the time periods mentioned here, and he also considers a year per level as fair for the most part. He did mention that a year should be added for the Level I to COP be added, as it's almost essentially a level unto itself. It seems like the idea has merit.

The proposal could look like this:

Level 1: Advanced promotion upon completion of requirements.
Certificate of Proficiency: Due for completion one year after receipt of advanced promotion.
Level II: Due for completion one year after receipt of Certificate of Proficiency.
Level III: Due for completion one year after receipt of Level II.
Level IV: Due for completion one year of completion of Level III.

Level V is not mentioned, due to the fact that there's no advanced grade that would require it. The "after receipt of" is added to take into account that some of the awards can take a few months to actually receive. Not really fair to require someone to work for something on the next level when they haven't been awarded the previous one yet.

Quote from: EMT-83 on April 02, 2010, 04:56:59 PM
So you have a new member with prior service. It was like pulling teeth to get Level I done, he won't wear a uniform, won't come to meetings or partipate in squadron activities. This does not preventing him from demanding the promotion he "deserves" due to his prior rank.

My only question on that would be: Was he told of the initials before he joined? Even if he wasn't, I wouldn't consider him entitled if he chose not to contribute, but it would be easier to say: "Hey, you knew there was gonna be some requirements, and you haven't fulfilled them."

If the person knows up front that it's not gonna be a free ride, it's gonna be easier to have them contribute.

I think anyone with an Eagle or star should have to achieve level V within 1 year to keep the title "Colonel", or "General".

I love seeing Wing Commanders with level 2, and in for 3 years go from Lt to Colonel.  Blows my mind!!!!

Quote from: Spike on April 02, 2010, 04:03:29 PM
THIS_LINK

The only Promotion system I know of in place by any Wing Commander.  It seems somewhat unfair, and unjust, but it is in this Colonel's right as Wing Commander.

I looked at other Wing Websites, but could not find any, or they are just not kept on line

I would contend that, as written, paragraphs 5 and 6 of the memo violate Section 1-1 of CAPR 35-5. They add eligibility requirements which are not listed in CAPR 35-5.

However, i feel the intent of the paragraphs is to clarify CAPR 35-5 paragraph 2-1a(4)

Quote(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.

I think it should be reworded to make it clear that these are the positions the commander feels merit promotion to Major or Lt Col.