In the August edition of Air Force magazine Former Senator Sam Nunn of Georgia was qouted as saying:

"Certainly there area very large number of gay and lesbien men and women in our military today. And they're doing itwithin the existing law. I'm not advocating anything-except I'm saying the policy was the right policy for the right time, and time changes. It's appropriate to take another look". 

Sam Nunn was a key leader in adoption of the "Don't Ask, don't Tell" policy

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 18, 2008, 04:29:27 AM
Either way, CAP has no official policy on membership for people of homosexual identification.

As an unwritten rule, we do not discriminate against gay people and in desire not to go to the Supreme Court over said issue and chance embarrassing the organization,  I recommend that people continue that practice.

I've been in healthcare for more years than I care to remember. I've learned the following:

We all bleed red.

We're all the same on the autopsy table.

I'm with afgeo on this.

Mike,

Please lock this thread!   

Quote from: sarflyer on August 20, 2008, 05:12:22 PM
Mike,

Please lock this thread!   

While most of us realize this is a sensitive topic, we don't lock and stymie discussions simply because the subject matter is sensitive.  The vast majority of participants in this discussion replied professionally and within the guidelines of the Membership Code of Conduct.

Funny enough, the discussion was pretty much done (it's clear where the vast majority stands on the issue, and rightfully so).  After it had been dead for almost 24 hours, you dredged it up again to ask us to lock it.   

We don't lock threads because you're uncomfortable discussing something.  We stop threads that destroy professional decorum, that violate the membership code of conduct, or stop ones that get way off tangent on unrelated matters.

Quote from: alamrcn on August 18, 2008, 09:44:59 PM

Quote from: smj58501 on August 17, 2008, 01:07:19 AM
Sexual orientation is not addressed (one way or the other) in our nondiscrimination policy.

Does it have to be? What is the date on the policy anyway, that could be why...

Actually, it wasn't in the most recent release detailed in the latest policy memo.

At any rate it doesn't matter. The way this topic is going, we may actually surpass many uniform discussions in the number of posts containing points of questionable value.

OK I am coming out of the closet, I have been a lesbian  for 20 years, which is tough to be since I am a guy :clap:

Defination of lesbian= only likes females. Therefore I am also a lesbian

It would appear that all serious discussion on this topic has ended. Perhaps its time to lock this before it gets any worse.

Last notice:  Keep posts on a professional level and pertinent to the discussion topic.

Inappropriate topic.

Quote from: sarflyer on August 21, 2008, 12:28:06 PM
Inappropriate topic.

Why do you think the topic is inappropriate?

Jack

QuoteWhy do you think the topic is inappropriate?

...why if we talk about them  then it acknowlges their existance.....and makes them scary real...

mk

Quote from: sarflyer on August 21, 2008, 12:28:06 PM
Inappropriate topic.

Sir,
A topic is not inappropriate because it makes us feel uncomfortable.  That's like burying our proverbial heads in the sand to make something that frightens us go away.

The question was a good one because no specific CAP documentation points to this particular topic.  I believe the question has also been answered; it's not a problem, it's not even an ISSUE in CAP.  But even though the question has been answered (for me, anyway) that doesn't mean professional, open discourse needs to stop. As I said in my earlier post, it's refreshing to me to see so many posts on the "acceptance side" of the issue.

<edit -- grammatical fixes - Tracey >

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 21, 2008, 03:19:27 PM

Quote from: sarflyer on August 21, 2008, 12:28:06 PM
Inappropriate topic.

Why do you think the topic is inappropriate?

Jack

It's easier to depersonalize and then not deal with the topic. It's easier to dehumanize the people discussed which then makes it easier to maintain the prejudice.

At the risk of sounding like a trite bumper sticker - hatred is not a family value. We as an organization have not had issues because we are accepting of people of various abilities and skill levels. Our origins come from those who were to young, to old, female or some other reason the military could not use them.

We would think it unconscionable to refuse to launch a mission to aid a gay pilot. How can we in good conscience refuse membership to a person we may serve sans evidence of an actual threat?

As I said before, we all bleed red. We are all human. We all have the same basic rights. What group do we ban next? If you are child free you can't join? If you're Islamic? If you've been in a fraternity / sorority? If you haven't been in a fraternity / sorority?

We have far more important things to worry over than consider than sexual orientation.


As for you guys that are lesbians - I don't believe it. Nor will I till I see you Oscar, Emmy or Tony awards! At least your SAG cards ...

Quote from: sarflyer on August 21, 2008, 12:28:06 PM
Inappropriate topic.

The only inappropriate topic is the one that isn't discussed out of fear. Any topic is appropriate if it is discussed in a professional, thoughtful, and intelligent manner.

In today's society, orientation should be a non issue. I think its safe to say that today, almost everyone either has a gay relative, knows someone who is gay, has a gay co-worker, or comes into contact with gay people in the course of normal daily life. 

If people started worrying more about the things that really do affect them rather than the things that only affect them if they allow it to, the world would be a much better place.

To put it bluntly, unless you are the person crawling in bed with them, why do u care about how the other person is.

Quote from: LtCol White on August 21, 2008, 06:20:31 PM

Quote from: sarflyer on August 21, 2008, 12:28:06 PM
Inappropriate topic.

The only inappropriate topic is the one that isn't discussed out of fear. Any topic is appropriate if it is discussed in a professional, thoughtful, and intelligent manner.

In today's society, orientation should be a non issue. I think its safe to say that today, almost everyone either has a gay relative, knows someone who is gay, has a gay co-worker, or comes into contact with gay people in the course of normal daily life. 

If people started worrying more about the things that really do affect them rather than the things that only affect them if they allow it to, the world would be a much better place.

To put it bluntly, unless you are the person crawling in bed with them, why do u care about how the other person is.

Because their behavior is immoral and does not reflect the values held by the majority of Americans or our founding principles.  Moreover, as I have previously pointed out, this behavior makes a person ineligible for military service.  As the Auxiliary of the USAF we should enforce a similar moral standard.

Now I'm beginning to understand why we no longer have MLOs.

Quote from: D2SK on August 21, 2008, 06:52:49 PM
Because their behavior is immoral and does not reflect the values held by the majority of Americans or our founding principles.  Moreover, as I have previously pointed out, this behavior makes a person ineligible for military service.  As the Auxiliary of the USAF we should enforce a similar moral standard.

Now I'm beginning to understand why we no longer have MLOs.

Stop embarrassing yourself. For starters, I know several MLOs.

Actually, you know several former MLOs.

There is so much that I would like to say, but will refrain in the name of professionalism.

However, when I get a new senior, I like to point them to our core values.  I've never had anyone say they weren't comfortable with them or agree with them.  

Attitudes that intentionally demean, disrespect, assume judgement and discriminate are a direct violation of what our organization stands for and are not welcome.  Someones sexual orientation is neither a violation of our core values, nor does it hinder mission accomplishment except for those who are so close minded that they can not work with someone of different stature.  

We are not talking about people who molest children or are forcing their beliefs on others.  We are talking about people, just like you and me who have a desire to serve their country and communities, who want to help others around them.  Good, law abiding citizens - for that they gain my respect.

We live in a country that was founded by outcasts, those who fled seeking a way to live a free life, one absent from oppression or judgement.  

If we bring the military into this discussion, recent polls and surveys of military members have found that a majority of those in the military really could care less about the sexual orientation of their team members.  Many more find it disgraceful that those members must "hide."  

So, just as a reminder (pay particular attention to #4).

Quote
1. Integrity: This is the very fiber of all core values; without it all other core values cannot prevail. It is the cornerstone for all that is moral and just in our society. It is more than simple honesty. It embraces other attributes such as courage, responsibility, accountability, justice, openness, self-respect, and humility. Lastly, this core value means CAP members must practice the highest standards of self-discipline.

2. Volunteer Service: CAP adopted this core value because it reflects the very essence of the organization—service to humanity. All CAP volunteers willingly give of their time, energy, and personal resources. Moreover, many have made the ultimate sacrifice by losing their lives while serving the organization. As a minimum, this core value implies a commitment on the part of all CAP members to place the organization's purposes first and foremost. This process starts with the member's agreement to obey the rules and regulations of CAP and the Air Force. In this regard, self-discipline is an absolute must.

3. Excellence: This core value reflects CAP's continuous effort to be the very best, and to consistently improve its humanitarian service to America. From personal appearance to resource management, excellence must be the goal of all CAP members.

4. Respect: CAP members come from all walks of life. Therefore, it is extremely important that members treat each other with fairness and dignity, and work together as a team. To do otherwise would seriously impair CAP's capability to accomplish the mission.

The core values outlined above serve as the foundation for how CAP members treat one another; how they treat the recipients of CAP's humanitarian service; and how they care for the corporate assets under their control. These basic commandments form CAP's ethical centerline – a moral compass for the organization. If one member fails to uphold these values, then, in a way, the entire organization suffers.

MLO's are now ChDO's (Character Development Officers)

I was reading an OP ED piece in my local paper this morning.  The header was "Jefferson Would Lose Today".  The article was basically referring to the "forum" at the Saddlebrook Church last Sunday hosting Sen. McCain and Obama.  The authors point was: why are we allowing a religious "test" with our presumptive candidates when there should not be.  She further gives Jefferson's quote saying; what does it matter if my neighbor believes in 20 gods or no god.  It doesn't effect my life nor my family's...
The obvious point is; it doesn't matter what the "majority" of Americans think or how they feel.  It matters how we respect each individuals rights as a citizen.  
That being said, do we really need to continue with this "conversation"?