The replacement course for the ADL-13 has finally been announced for release:
http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/officer_basic_course.cfm
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
"Unlike ADL-13, there is no end-of-course examination. To complete the OBC, members must successfully pass an open-book online quiz at the end of each lesson within the blocks."
>:( So how do we prove that the member learns anything from this?
Quote from: NCRblues on December 08, 2009, 11:37:06 PMSo how do we prove that the member learns anything from this?
Lots of little tests instead of one big one?
I suspect you're concerned about the open-book nature of the tests. I'm not sure that will significantly change the amount of information that is retained by the participants.
plus only 90 days allowed. Can't start when you register, and only a certain number of slots allowed, until you are pushed back later. WTH, I know ECI-13 wasn't the best, but this? :o ???
Quote from: Fubar on December 09, 2009, 12:42:12 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on December 08, 2009, 11:37:06 PMSo how do we prove that the member learns anything from this?
Lots of little tests instead of one big one?
I suspect you're concerned about the open-book nature of the tests. I'm not sure that will significantly change the amount of information that is retained by the participants.
Its online, open book. Like all things CAP, many will take it seriously and complete it in the spirit of learning and growth, but many will
simply treat it as an exercise of the F3 key.
I have no issue with online, huge issue with open-book, especially without a proctor. Ditto for the upcoming Cadet testing.
As I've argued on CS and here - traditional open book tests require at least a working knowledge of the book (especially those with a poor index), but with the sum total of human knowledge one click away, "open book" takes on a different meaning.
500 questions, 1,000, 10,000 with rotating decks - it doesn't matter if you can leave Wikipedia open and Google the regs.
Hey, I was wrong about wing Banker, maybe this will be a pleasant surprise as well...
Eclipse said everything i was thinking
I have not take the course but I am taking another course on the the black board and I don't think you can just F4 search it like we do the 116, CP, Comm, etc tests.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 09, 2009, 01:02:37 AM
I have not take the course but I am taking another course on the the black board and I don't think you can just F4 search it like we do the 116, CP, Comm, etc tests.
Assuming this is a browser-based situation, its near impossible to lock a machine down to prevent using other programs while the test is running. It may not be as bad as the 116 tests, but what about another browser window? Another machine? Cel phone?
As I write this (by random chance because I am reloading some CAP notebooks) I have 10 notebook computers and 4 cel phones within arms reach that all have web access, and that doesn't even account for just pure cheating.
If its program knowledge, it'll be in the regs and pubs, fully indexed on both the web and locally (MS Search, Google Desktop, etc.), if its general knowledge, its in the ether.
You can only pose Yeager's birthday so many ways, and the dilution of the Yeager is the perfect example of the issue. Between general knowledge and being active in the program, most reasonably intelligent adults should be able to knock out the AEPSM in about 15 minutes walking in cold.
Eligibility Requirements Eligibilityrequirements for the OBC are the same as eligibility requirements forADL-13. For senior members this means that you must have completedLevel I. Cadets must have completed their Mitchell Award *NOTE: The Officer Basic Course does NOT counttowards the Leadership Academy requirement for Phase IV of the CadetProgram at this time. Cadets may continue to enroll in ADL-13 until 1March 2010. Cadet Officers who elect to take the OBC aspersonal development will have OBC completion carried over to theirsenior member record should they choose to transition to seniormembership in the future.
So...what happens after 1 March 2010 then?
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on December 09, 2009, 01:32:21 AM
So...what happens after 1 March 2010 then?
TBD
The KB specifies that the decision about counting OBC towards Eaker has not yet been made.
Will Al Gore still be listed as VP?
My application has been submitted, along with two others from my squadron. I wonder how many were sent in today?
Quote from: EMT-83 on December 09, 2009, 02:52:49 AM
My application has been submitted, along with two others from my squadron. I wonder how many were sent in today?
I submitted mine. So at least 4.
I wonder how many slots are available....
You know, soon after they launched the updated SLS and CLC courses I asked here how many people would be interested in taking them again since they are basically entirely different courses than the old "This is what the squadron/group/Wing ES officer does" courses. Not many were interested. I wonder how many might take this course even if they've already done the old ECI-13?
Quote from: RiverAux on December 09, 2009, 03:45:13 AM
You know, soon after they launched the updated SLS and CLC courses I asked here how many people would be interested in taking them again since they are basically entirely different courses than the old "This is what the squadron/group/Wing ES officer does" courses. Not many were interested. I wonder how many might take this course even if they've already done the old ECI-13?
I'd take it again simply to be informed on the content and delivery method.
But its not really a fair analogy - SLS/CLC's are more about networking, and the reason the re-take is encouraged is because the new curriculum is discussion-based and subjective, so its never the same. The OBC, even at its best, it just about basic knowledge of CAP and its operations.
Did anyone else notice that you can bypass the classes and challenge the tests directly? If you can't get through 200, open-book, multiple choice questions in 90 days, you don't deserve to be a Captain.
One suggestion might be to require that the tests be challenged by all takers before getting the curriculum, and then the system could shuffle things around to the areas where the tester struggled - them what knows can get on with their lives.
I personally would like to see the option to challenge removed, with at least some sort of per-page timer running (a lot of online presentations do that now to prevent the click-through factor). At least make the light from the pages enter the room and intersect with the members' eyes...
Quote from: cdk77 on December 09, 2009, 03:34:31 AM
Quote from: EMT-83 on December 09, 2009, 02:52:49 AM
My application has been submitted, along with two others from my squadron. I wonder how many were sent in today?
I submitted mine. So at least 4.
I wonder how many slots are available....
175-185 slots available.
Don't get me started on wing banker please!!!! >:(
ADL-13?
You mean we're taking courses from the Anti-Defamation League?
It's HQ AU A-4/6 Course 13. In fact, they abbreviate course names as simply A-4/6 13. Before it was A-4/6, it was AFIADL. You can't abbreviate any more than those six letters without botching the name, or just calling it ECI, which goes back even further.
(Speaking as someone who's in the midst of A-4/6 20.)
I tried to enroll my wife last night but got a bounced backed email. Anybody else having problems?
Nope, no bounce. I saved the form as a PDF and sent it as an email attachment. The "submit" button on the form did nothing for me.
Quote from: EMT-83 on December 09, 2009, 01:23:33 PM
Nope, no bounce. I saved the form as a PDF and sent it as an email attachment. The "submit" button on the form did nothing for me.
I did the exact same thing but it bounced.
As far as open book testing goes, knowing where to go for the information is just as important (if not more important) then memorizing information and regurgitating it on a closed book test. That is how the military predominantly operates as far as the officer side goes. Remember "knowing is only half the battle".
Quote from: Spike on December 09, 2009, 01:43:05 PM
As far as open book testing goes, knowing where to go for the information is just as important (if not more important) then memorizing information and regurgitating it on a closed book test. That is how the military predominantly operates as far as the officer side goes. Remember "knowing is only half the battle".
So why not just give everyone a Google phone with their Captain's bars and call it a day.
Being able to search for a technical answer is one thing, the fundamental baseline program knowledge required to be a good leader in CAP is something else. I might need to look up a "will vs. shall", but I also know whether there's a need to check in the first place.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2009, 04:42:30 PM
Quote from: Spike on December 09, 2009, 01:43:05 PM
As far as open book testing goes, knowing where to go for the information is just as important (if not more important) then memorizing information and regurgitating it on a closed book test. That is how the military predominantly operates as far as the officer side goes. Remember "knowing is only half the battle".
So why not just give everyone a Google phone with their Captain's bars and call it a day.
Being able to search for a technical answer is one thing, the fundamental baseline program knowledge required to be a good leader in CAP is something else. I might need to look up a "will vs. shall", but I also know whether there's a need to check in the first place.
Neither of which is well evaluated in a comprehensive multiple choice test.
The key is that the read the material and understand it.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 09, 2009, 05:19:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2009, 04:42:30 PM
Quote from: Spike on December 09, 2009, 01:43:05 PM
As far as open book testing goes, knowing where to go for the information is just as important (if not more important) then memorizing information and regurgitating it on a closed book test. That is how the military predominantly operates as far as the officer side goes. Remember "knowing is only half the battle".
So why not just give everyone a Google phone with their Captain's bars and call it a day.
Being able to search for a technical answer is one thing, the fundamental baseline program knowledge required to be a good leader in CAP is something else. I might need to look up a "will vs. shall", but I also know whether there's a need to check in the first place.
Neither of which is well evaluated in a comprehensive multiple choice test.
The key is that the read the material and understand it.
Agreed, but at least closed-book it requires you to somewhat pay attention.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2009, 05:41:44 PMAgreed, but at least closed-book it requires you to somewhat pay attention.
Okay....but I don't really care about the course all that much anyways when it comes to promoting people or assigning jobs.
It is good information and will help a member become a good officer. If they cut corners it will show in their work and will reflect in their promotion.
I just submitted my application. Waiting to hear back now.
FYI - the application form automatically fills in the Date block with the date/time. They are serious about first come, first served.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 09, 2009, 04:20:00 AM
175-185 slots available.
Thanks.
Now I just need to wonder how long before they announce who is in the first group.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2009, 04:42:30 PM
Quote from: Spike on December 09, 2009, 01:43:05 PM
As far as open book testing goes, knowing where to go for the information is just as important (if not more important) then memorizing information and regurgitating it on a closed book test. That is how the military predominantly operates as far as the officer side goes. Remember "knowing is only half the battle".
So why not just give everyone a Google phone with their Captain's bars and call it a day.
Being able to search for a technical answer is one thing, the fundamental baseline program knowledge required to be a good leader in CAP is something else. I might need to look up a "will vs. shall", but I also know whether there's a need to check in the first place.
I guess my point was not clear, I apologize. I merely meant that having open book tests do require a person to dig through information to find the correct answer to the question. Now, if a person pays attention when first presented with the info, the digging will be much shorter for that person, opposed to a person who merely takes all the course tests on day one in blackboard.
Honestly, if I do my job well enough as a Squadron Commander and make my Senior Mentoring program the best it can be, this course should be a breeze. It is my job, and my Deputy for seniors job to make sure new Officers are educated enough to operate in CAP. Many Squadrons throw the new members into the "find out yourself" pit of failure.
Remember this is supposed to be the "Basic Course". I will treat it that way. Officers need to know a little bit about everything, and later on focus in on their chosen field. Unfortunately, I have no way to see what this course is all about as it is not open to those who have taken equivalents (ECI 13 in my case).
For all we know the course is no different then an ORM or EO "course".
Judging from the announcement, it sounds like this one follows the same format as the online ICS courses.
I'm curious as to what it covers compared to ECI/AFIADL/DL/whatever-13. The announcement says 20 hours compared to 13's 37 hours. I'm a little concerned about the fact that it's a only a little over half of 13's hours. Granted, there was a bunch of extraneous content, but wondering how much the new course covers.
^ I can't remotely imagine taking 37 hours for ECI-13. It took me an an afternoon to go through the materials and I took the test the next day.
Quote from: Spike on December 09, 2009, 08:44:47 PM
I guess my point was not clear, I apologize. I merely meant that having open book tests do require a person to dig through information to find the correct answer to the question. Now, if a person pays attention when first presented with the info, the digging will be much shorter for that person, opposed to a person who merely takes all the course tests on day one in blackboard.
Google search takes the same amount of time for someone with no experience as a Level V member. The only variable will be the speed of
your internet connection.
There isn't a single question about CAP history or operations, nor Aerospace history, etc., that isn't fully indexed in one place.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2009, 09:02:47 PM
^ I can't remotely imagine taking 37 hours for ECI-13. It took me an an afternoon to go through the materials and I took the test the next day.
Not about how many hours it takes, but how many are credited. A matter of content, not execution.
I may end up taking this thing even though wing has my ECI13 test right now. I've been told that the wing commander will not allow the test to be mailed to the units anymore and it'll be a cold day in hell before my wife will let me drive 2.5 hours one way to take a half hour test. I might be able to take it with the SD but that's still an hour away.
Quote from: davidsinn on December 09, 2009, 09:10:26 PM
I may end up taking this thing even though wing has my ECI13 test right now. I've been told that the wing commander will not allow the test to be mailed to the units anymore and it'll be a cold day in hell before my wife will let me drive 2.5 hours one way to take a half hour test. I might be able to take it with the SD but that's still an hour away.
You should probably confirm that directly - I can't imagine under what pretense they would be doing that, or even what the point of it would be.
Nothing like special policies to make the lives of our members easier... ::)
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2009, 09:26:28 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on December 09, 2009, 09:10:26 PM
I may end up taking this thing even though wing has my ECI13 test right now. I've been told that the wing commander will not allow the test to be mailed to the units anymore and it'll be a cold day in hell before my wife will let me drive 2.5 hours one way to take a half hour test. I might be able to take it with the SD but that's still an hour away.
You should probably confirm that directly - I can't imagine under what pretense they would be doing that, or even what the point of it would be.
Nothing like special policies to make the lives of our members easier... ::)
I've been in contact with WG PD for three days. It is what it is. On a positive note she'll talk to the SD about him giving it to me at GUS which is only 65 minutes away. Still..... ???
Received notification that I'm in the first group, starts 1 Jan.
I'm in the first group also.
I'm also in the first group. :D
I am also in the first group.
Wow, looks like we are going to be pinning on a lot more Capts in the near future. Good luck to all. :clap:
Any idea how many people got into the first group and if there is a waiting list for the second (or third, etc)?
I signed up as fast as I could and got Feb 15 2010. Maybe I'll take the old test that I ordered? Which will happen first?
Quote from: Thrash on December 10, 2009, 11:31:35 PM
I signed up as fast as I could and got Feb 15 2010. Maybe I'll take the old test that I ordered? Which will happen first?
You're not supposed to signup for the OBC if you are in an open ECI-13 track. At a minimum you should contact AFIDL and
disenroll from ECI-13.
Says who? I have not completed ADL-13.
The Fine Print
•Members who have previously completed ADL-13 will not be accepted as students at this time. We must do this in order to accommodate all the members who need to complete this requirement in order to complete Level II. We'll review this restriction on a regular basis and will remove this restriction when demand for the course levels out.
•Members who are currently enrolled in ADL-13 may continue their studies. Their enrollment in ADL-13 will continue normally and will expire 12 months from their enrollment, as usual. No new enrollments for ADL-13 for senior members should be submitted after 31 December 2009.
•If you are unfamiliar with the online learning environment and would like to take a tutorial, there is a Blackboard tutorial available. To take the tutorial, please send the request in the email with your OBC application
•
•If you are having trouble submitting the form, copy and save either as a new .pdf file or as a .jpeg file. If you are unable to do so, please contact Ron Olienyk at rolienyk@capnhq.gov.
Steps to Enrollment:
There are three simple steps to enroll in the Officer Basic Course:
1. Confirm your eligibility to enroll in OBC.
2. Ensure you have not completed ADL-13.
3. Complete the OBC Enrollment Form below and e-mail it to: officerbasiccourse@capnhq.gov
Quote from: EMT-83 on December 09, 2009, 02:52:49 AM
My application has been submitted, along with two others from my squadron. I wonder how many were sent in today?
+ 1
Just submitted my application.
Thrash,
If you do not offically withdraw from ECI-13 then you will get an incomplete and be locked out of all other ECI courses for upto a year.
A4/A6 may allow you to enrole in the OBC while still enrolled in ECI-13 but you really should not.
The note about those currently enrolled in ECI-13 simply means that you can continue to finish the course...which IMHO you should.
Order the test and get it over with.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 11, 2009, 01:47:24 AM
Thrash,
If you do not offically withdraw from ECI-13 then you will get an incomplete and be locked out of all other ECI courses for upto a year.
Also the FAQ:
3. Can I drop my current ADL-13 enrollment and enroll in the Officer Basic Course?
Answer: We encourage members presently enrolled in ADL-13 to finish the course.The last thing they need is a bunch of ECI no-notice drops tying up AFIDL.
:clap: January 1st
The on-line OBC is ran by CAP and has no connection to the USAF manged ADL-13. Enrollment in one has no impact on the other. I discussed this with our Region PDO last week. There might be a "preference" to have people finish ADL-13 instead of taking OBC but it is not a requirement. If you don't plan on finishing ADL-13, disenrolling is the best option. Still, if you don't plan on taking another ADL course in a year, it really doesn't mattter.
Bottom line IMHO, if you are about ready to test, then finish ADL-13. If you are nowhere near ready to test, then drop it and sign up on-line.
I've ordered the test. I'm still waiting. I'm tired of waiting.
Quote from: Thrash on December 11, 2009, 02:24:43 PM
I've ordered the test. I'm still waiting. I'm tired of waiting.
The story of our lives whilst dealing with AU. Your luck, you'll get into the Feb 15 OBC class and finish it before seeing the materials from AU. To date, I have taken 6 classes from AU (2 CAP, 4 AF) and the story is the same, every time.
Quote from: Short Field on December 11, 2009, 03:51:08 AM
The on-line OBC is ran by CAP and has no connection to the USAF manged ADL-13. Enrollment in one has no impact on the other. I discussed this with our Region PDO last week. There might be a "preference" to have people finish ADL-13 instead of taking OBC but it is not a requirement. If you don't plan on finishing ADL-13, disenrolling is the best option. Still, if you don't plan on taking another ADL course in a year, it really doesn't mattter.
Does everything have to be a regulation before members will just do what they are supposed to?
Its clear the intent here is to have people already in the ECI-13 track finish it and leave the OBC for those who haven't enrolled anywhere.
Why is it so hard to just follow instructions?
The bottom line is that if you've done the course and only waiting for the test, you should complete it through AU. Rather than take a slot that can be filled by someone else.
I heard back last night. I got in for 15 February. Ah well, as long as I get it done so I could be promoted at Wing Conference I'm happy.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 11, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
[Why is it so hard to just follow instructions?
Actually, I was passing along the guidance I received from the Region PDO. Some people are so far behind (as in never started or stopped with no real intention of finishing) in the correspondence course they will never finish it anyway. Do you want to "punish" them or see more people finish OBC? If people are close to finishing ADL-13 and will be ready to test, then by all means finish it. If not, then they need to bail and get into something they might finish. If ADL-13 was that great, why did we change to a on-line version that is significantly different.
Ages ago when I started college, the only "short" college courses you could take were the six-week long summer sessions. Now entire degree programs are offered where you take one class at a time over a couple of weeks. I know of several Masters programs that ship you the course work, then you spend one week in class, take the test, hand in the term paper, and then move on to the next course. Then you have the new on-line courses...
If your already a Capt based on being a Sq Commander, do you still need to take it?
Quote from: Flying Pig on December 11, 2009, 08:13:16 PM
If your already a Capt based on being a Sq Commander, do you still need to take it?
Yes, if you want to be promoted to Major. Level II is an embedded requirement.
I finally heard from the state director. I have an appointment for 1300 next friday to take the test. I'll have an hour one way drive for a 20 minute test.
The "Submit by email" button also didn't work for me. I'm guessing that I'll at best in the Feb class. Does anyone know why they limited the class size, given that it's online? Especially with the backlog of people waiting to complete this requirement to make it to Capt?
They have a limited number of licenses for BlackBoard.
Quote from: MikeD on December 11, 2009, 10:15:55 PM
The "Submit by email" button also didn't work for me.....
By comparing notes with other members, we sort of found out that if you have Adobe Acrobat then the "Submit by email" will work just fine. However, it will not work if you only have Adobe Acrobat Reader. Hopefully the issue will be rectified soon by national.
Quote from: Flint on December 11, 2009, 04:44:51 PM
I heard back last night. I got in for 15 February. Ah well, as long as I get it done so I could be promoted at Wing Conference I'm happy.
How long did it take you to hear back?
Quote from: vento on December 11, 2009, 10:42:05 PM
Quote from: MikeD on December 11, 2009, 10:15:55 PM
The "Submit by email" button also didn't work for me.....
By comparing notes with other members, we sort of found out that if you have Adobe Acrobat then the "Submit by email" will work just fine. However, it will not work if you only have Adobe Acrobat Reader. Hopefully the issue will be rectified soon by national.
If my computer does not have Adobe Acrobat, how do I get it ?
I hit the submit by email button and it brought up a screen to send an email but nothing was in the email section .. just the name of where it will be sent. I hit the send button. Did this happen with anyone else or did I do something wrong? Forgive my knowledge with this stuff. I am normally ok with computers.
Quote from: Flight Officer on December 12, 2009, 12:15:15 AM
If my computer does not have Adobe Acrobat, how do I get it ?
While Adobe Acrobat Reader is a free program, Adobe Acrobat is not. Amazon charges $236.49 for a copy link here (http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-22002418-Acrobat-Standard-9/dp/B0018QV3OC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1260577949&sr=8-1)
We think there must be a glitch with the NHQ's formatting on the application form. When done correctly, it should be able to work with just the Reader instead of the full program. So far, none of the application bounced for people with Acrobat, but all bounced for people with only the Reader. That's why we are speculating...
Quote from: vento on December 11, 2009, 10:42:05 PM
Quote from: MikeD on December 11, 2009, 10:15:55 PM
The "Submit by email" button also didn't work for me.....
By comparing notes with other members, we sort of found out that if you have Adobe Acrobat then the "Submit by email" will work just fine. However, it will not work if you only have Adobe Acrobat Reader. Hopefully the issue will be rectified soon by national.
I have Acrobat 7 and it does not work with that.
Quote from: Flight Officer on December 12, 2009, 12:15:15 AM
Quote from: Flint on December 11, 2009, 04:44:51 PM
I heard back last night. I got in for 15 February. Ah well, as long as I get it done so I could be promoted at Wing Conference I'm happy.
How long did it take you to hear back?
Quote from: vento on December 11, 2009, 10:42:05 PM
Quote from: MikeD on December 11, 2009, 10:15:55 PM
The "Submit by email" button also didn't work for me.....
By comparing notes with other members, we sort of found out that if you have Adobe Acrobat then the "Submit by email" will work just fine. However, it will not work if you only have Adobe Acrobat Reader. Hopefully the issue will be rectified soon by national.
If my computer does not have Adobe Acrobat, how do I get it ?
I hit the submit by email button and it brought up a screen to send an email but nothing was in the email section .. just the name of where it will be sent. I hit the send button. Did this happen with anyone else or did I do something wrong? Forgive my knowledge with this stuff. I am normally ok with computers.
I sent the application in on Wed.
Quote from: vento on December 11, 2009, 08:32:05 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on December 11, 2009, 08:13:16 PM
If your already a Capt based on being a Sq Commander, do you still need to take it?
Yes, if you want to be promoted to Major. Level II is an embedded requirement.
Sorry but true - you gotta complete all requirements for both Level II and Level III along with completing the time-in-grade requirement for major.
When the "Submit by email" button didn't work, I cut'n pasted the content into an email with an explanation. I'm in for Feb so I guess that they know about the problem.
Quote from: helper on December 12, 2009, 04:45:33 AM
When the "Submit by email" button didn't work, I cut'n pasted the content into an email with an explanation. I'm in for Feb so I guess that they know about the problem.
I would like to have seen this done as an 'application' in e-Services. It'd be able to automatically fill in everything except the statement of understanding (nearly one-click enrollment), and would be somewhat software-agnostic. (Mind you, many things in e-Services indicate they require IE but I've had near 100% success with Firefox). Oh, well. We'll go with what we've got.
How did people find out what date they got? I submitted the form via Acrobat email (I have the full version) as soon as I got the message online (Wednesday).
I don't believe I have seen anything from CAP as to what date I have received....
Bob Roberts
Quote from: Eclipse on December 11, 2009, 10:35:00 PM
They have a limited number of licenses for BlackBoard.
http://www.humboldt.edu/~jdv1/moodle/all.htm Moodle looks good, and http://www.linuxbox.com/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=bb2moodle converts from BB to Moodle. http://dotlrn.org/ is another good alternative. (Hopes someone from NHQ IT reads this).
Quote from: rroberts on December 14, 2009, 05:50:57 AM
How did people find out what date they got? I submitted the form via Acrobat email (I have the full version) as soon as I got the message online (Wednesday).
I don't believe I have seen anything from CAP as to what date I have received....
Bob Roberts
+ 1
?????
Quote from: rroberts on December 14, 2009, 05:50:57 AM
How did people find out what date they got? I submitted the form via Acrobat email (I have the full version) as soon as I got the message online (Wednesday).
I don't believe I have seen anything from CAP as to what date I have received....
Bob Roberts
Once you are admitted to a cohort, you will receive an email from Ron Olienyk at NHQ telling you when you will be taking the course. I know emails have been sent to the January 1 cohort, I'm not sure if they have yet sent emails to those who ended up in later cohorts.
Check your 'Spam' folder and make sure that you don't have an acceptance email mis-filed.
Thom
I got the email from Ron today. April 1st. Amazed the first two cohorts filled up in the day or two since an announcement.
Looking forward to the course.
Quote from: helper on December 12, 2009, 04:45:33 AM
When the "Submit by email" button didn't work, I cut'n pasted the content into an email with an explanation. I'm in for Feb so I guess that they know about the problem.
I printed, scanned, attached to email. that worked.
Quote from: rroberts on December 14, 2009, 05:50:57 AM
How did people find out what date they got? I submitted the form via Acrobat email (I have the full version) as soon as I got the message online (Wednesday).
I don't believe I have seen anything from CAP as to what date I have received....
Bob Roberts
Got an email with the date.
Quote from: MikeD on December 14, 2009, 05:55:50 AM
http://www.humboldt.edu/~jdv1/moodle/all.htm Moodle looks good, and http://www.linuxbox.com/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=bb2moodle converts from BB to Moodle. http://dotlrn.org/ is another good alternative. (Hopes someone from NHQ IT reads this).
Moodle is great ... it just lacks a bit of the flashy commercial stuff that BlackBoard has.
I received the email with the start date of 15 May 2010.
Anyone else have the start date of 15 May 2010 ?
Quote from: Flight Officer on December 16, 2009, 02:30:58 AM
I received the email with the start date of 15 May 2010.
Anyone else have the start date of 15 May 2010 ?
My wife received yesterday a date of Jan.
+1 15 may 2010
Printed and scanned my Enrollment application. Time stamp = 2009-12-09 09:31:33
Submitted application via email 2009-12-09 13:40:00 CST.
Accepted into the 15 February 2010 session.
Eligible for promotion to Captain 16 FEB 2010 for serving as Squadron Commander
Complete Level II upon completion of Officer Basic Course.
I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)
But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.
The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 16, 2009, 09:52:11 PM
I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)
But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.
The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.
We already have the SLS and later on the CLC for junior officers. No need to try to make CAP like a 100% military organization with an encampment like OBC. What we need is to have proper training to perform our missions well, not training to look like military officers.
Quote from: vento on December 16, 2009, 10:34:08 PM
We already have the SLS and later on the CLC for junior officers. No need to try to make CAP like a 100% military organization with an encampment like OBC. What we need is to have proper training to perform our missions well, not training to look like military officers.
I agree - The summary conversations cover most of what a member needs for the first couple of months, and a mentor or the commander can take it from there. I encourage new members to get into an SLS as soon as they can after joining - my wing offers 3-4 per year so this is generally not a problem.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 16, 2009, 10:39:23 PM
my wing offers 3-4 per year so this is generally not a problem.
... for your wing. Some wings have trouble holding one a year, and other geographically dispersed wings have trouble pulling in a crowd.
Quote from: McLarty on December 16, 2009, 11:50:56 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 16, 2009, 10:39:23 PM
my wing offers 3-4 per year so this is generally not a problem.
... for your wing. Some wings have trouble holding one a year, and other geographically dispersed wings have trouble pulling in a crowd.
Yeah, I know - and getting to where we are was an uphill climb - for a long time there was only one a year and located as far from the population centers as possible.
Quote from: vento on December 16, 2009, 10:34:08 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 16, 2009, 09:52:11 PM
I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)
But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.
The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.
We already have the SLS and later on the CLC for junior officers. No need to try to make CAP like a 100% military organization with an encampment like OBC. What we need is to have proper training to perform our missions well, not training to look like military officers.
But thats the problem vento. We dont have poper training. In my old squadron those guys can be at the computer all day and do this course. Is that going to make them better CAP officers? no it wont. They have checked a block and thats it. In my army unit, you know how my soldiers get through the ICS courses? Our training NCO has the answers to the online tests. He gives them to the soldiers and says "Go fill in the answers. And thats what happens in many CAP units. they go through the motions of an online course without getting any sustantive training. I know Senior members that have been in for years and still dont know how to salute or how t recognize rank. But its all in level I right? and they all had that. But did it stick? apparently not. I have been to so many functions and seen the Wing Commander enter the room ans noby does anything or some one will say "room attention" (whcih is incorrect as well) so I am sorry but I just dont think online courses give you the actual hands on practice you need that a physical course would give you
I was asked by some senior members than work in cadet programs recently to actually teach them how to drill. They wanted me to form them up and give them dril commands. So they desire is out there.
Why are folks against CAP being more military? Or is that just hear on this board? We wear a semi military uniform. if we are going to wear it then we need to behave like military officers. I read on here about senior member officers not saluting military officers when they should. You cant learn that online.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 17, 2009, 02:10:28 PM
But thats the problem vento. We dont have poper training. In my old squadron those guys can be at the computer all day and do this course. Is that going to make them better CAP officers? no it wont. They have checked a block and thats it. In my army unit, you know how my soldiers get through the ICS courses? Our training NCO has the answers to the online tests. He gives them to the soldiers and says "Go fill in the answers. And thats what happens in many CAP units. they go through the motions of an online course without getting any sustantive training. I know Senior members that have been in for years and still dont know how to salute or how t recognize rank. But its all in level I right? and they all had that. But did it stick? apparently not. I have been to so many functions and seen the Wing Commander enter the room ans noby does anything or some one will say "room attention" (whcih is incorrect as well) so I am sorry but I just dont think online courses give you the actual hands on practice you need that a physical course would give you
My broken record, again - local issues do not reflect the national situation. If there is no proper reinforcement and use of the training, then you can have a Ph.D in CAP and it won't matter because there's no use for it.
I see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else. This is all they see from day 1. These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C. Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 17, 2009, 02:10:28 PM
Why are folks against CAP being more military? Or is that just hear on this board?
I don't think that's the case at all, here or otherwise. The problem is that because of our schizophrenic nature, we tend to swing the pendulum too far depending on who's agenda we're working on.
What we need is the intestinal fortitude across the board and up the whole chain to adopt a consistent set of SOP's, attitude, and consequences, and then just "do it", accepting the attrition, growth, and eventual higher performance that will come with changing the rules somewhat.
I have never, personally, met a "corporate type" who wasn't willing to stand at attention, salute once in a while, and say "Sir" like it wasn't a four-letter-word, as long as its met with the same respect in return, leaving the Napoleon's at home, and there aren't any "special cases".
Likewise, those who adopt the military-mindset need to occasionally lighten up a bit, and realize the world won't come to end if someone calls you by your first name once in a while.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2009, 02:22:37 PMLikewise, those who adopt the military-mindset need to occasionally lighten up a bit, and realize the world won't come to end if someone calls you by your first name once in a while.
We have first names!?
I agree with everything that has been said. I always read about people who saw so-and-so not doing that or not saying that or not saluting that or demanding that from AD folks, but I've never seen it in my area, and my first unit and all Encampments took place at Great Lakes!
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 16, 2009, 09:52:11 PM
I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)
But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.
The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.
I disagree....to a point. Yes it would be wonderful idea to get new CAP officers to a weekend course to teach basic leadership. However, we only got so many weekends and even then a weekend is not really enough time.
If you look at the effort vs output you quickly see that would not pay off in the long run.
Smaller wings would have fewer of them per year then large wings which would slow up the training pipe line for that wing.
Even at a live course...how much hands on training will you get. Assume it is a 1700 Firday to 1700 Sunday course you get a grand total of 48 hours to get your training in. 16 hours for sleeping, 5 hours for meals, 1-2 hours in/out processing...that gives you 25 hours for actual instruction time. How many hours do you put aside for instruction and how many hours for hands on work?
Think this is a very good compromise between what would really be needed (a week long in-resident leadership course) vs the current very dry, very incorrect ECI-13.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2009, 02:22:37 PMI see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else. This is all they see from day 1. These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C. Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.
And there are also units where C&C are not stressed between the seniors and they are suscessful, cohearant, motivated and top perfomers. C&C are not all that.
What works....works.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 17, 2009, 06:05:04 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2009, 02:22:37 PMI see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else. This is all they see from day 1. These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C. Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.
And there are also units where C&C are not stressed between the seniors and they are suscessful, cohearant, motivated and top perfomers. C&C are not all that.
What works....works.
I agree, to a point. Sadly, there are far too few Hawkeye Pierce's (and too many Frank Burns', too).
What I can say for sure is that if everyone was consistently adhering to at least a baseline of C&C, we would not have these
dueling-camps of people at missions bases, encampments, and other activities.
You know the guys - you salute them and they duck like you were going to hit them...or that look at you like you have a second head when you suggest your name isn't "John", its "Captain Doe" (in situations where C&C are legitimately dictated).
Quote from: lordmonar on December 17, 2009, 05:59:38 PMYes it would be wonderful idea to get new CAP officers to a weekend course to teach basic leadership. However, we only got so many weekends and even then a weekend is not really enough time.
....
Even at a live course...how much hands on training will you get. Assume it is a 1700 Firday to 1700 Sunday course you get a grand total of 48 hours to get your training in. 16 hours for sleeping, 5 hours for meals, 1-2 hours in/out processing...that gives you 25 hours for actual instruction time. How many hours do you put aside for instruction and how many hours for hands on work?
Think this is a very good compromise between what would really be needed (a week long in-resident leadership course) vs the current very dry, very incorrect ECI-13.
Maybe a "combo" course would be more helpful. Online classes, as well as in-resident classes. The method is being used by numerous colleges to positive effect. It wouldn't have to be done at wing, groups could easily host a few weekend days a few times in a quarter.
There's also the benefit of people seeing that they've spent time and accomplished something. It would go a lot further for people's confidence level over "I spent a few hours doing online classes".
It seems like we're allowing a downslide in training/education and lowering the bar because "there's not enough time". I don't know any organization that is going to accept a person having 80 credit hours when the job they need you for requires a degree. Why should we be any different? (No, I'm not advocating that our officers have degrees, just pointing out the principle.)We want professionals, but aren't taking the time to train our members to be professionals.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2009, 06:11:37 PMYou know the guys - you salute them and they duck like you were going to hit them...
Funny you should mention it that way, I've had a Wing CC or three that have done it. It would be amusing if it wasn't so sad.
Part of this is that we need everybody, but we also put the same expectations on everyone walking in the door.
On first contact, every new member has an equal shot at being the National Commander, and we rarely ever have conversations
about whether this or that development track or duty is appropriate (until they fail, spectacularly).
There are people who are leaders and people who are followers, and there are people in both camps who think they are one and should be the other.
How many of you have seen a new member, someone who's real life involves a day job with no management experience, be put in a Wing-level position the day their Level 1 is clear, only to see them buckle under the pressure and quit in under a year?
I don't have a quick fix, but raising the bar on expectations, PD, and initial training would sure help.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2009, 06:11:37 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 17, 2009, 06:05:04 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2009, 02:22:37 PMI see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else. This is all they see from day 1. These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C. Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.
And there are also units where C&C are not stressed between the seniors and they are suscessful, cohearant, motivated and top perfomers. C&C are not all that.
What works....works.
I agree, to a point. Sadly, there are far too few Hawkeye Pierce's (and too many Frank Burns', too).
What I can say for sure is that if everyone was consistently adhering to at least a baseline of C&C, we would not have these
dueling-camps of people at missions bases, encampments, and other activities.
You know the guys - you salute them and they duck like you were going to hit them...or that look at you like you have a second head when you suggest your name isn't "John", its "Captain Doe" (in situations where C&C are legitimately dictated).
I appreciate that. Frankly, it's a balancing act for commanders. I was brought up in a CAP culture that is COMPLETELY different from most of what we see today. Our commander was from MNWG and the executive officer was from TXWG. Both wings had strong, military centered programs. If you went elsewhere in AKWG, there was a bunch of guys wearing flannel in J-3 cubs and U-6 Beavers. They were embarrassing to us but that was just the way it was.
WIWA squadron and group CC, I had to move the program of first the squadron, then the group. Sometimes it was a glacial pace, sometimes I had to make a stand. If I corrected the patches on every uniform I saw, I never would have gotten anything done. Sometimes progress in CAP is generational (regression comes overnight).
I think the new OBC is a good step. It's not what I would have done if I were king, but that's not to say that what I would do would be best for the force as a whole. I think what we need is a Civil Air Patrol 2.0 - start with the cadets. Have a program that carries them from middle school to SM Lt Col. Why would we have a program for youth that wouldn't provide us with the next generation of leaders. In my region, the non-cadet average age is 39+. That's part of the problem. If we train them to be CAP officers from an early age, then all of this bickering and whining about having to wear uniforms, respecting the grade and position of others, and whether or not I should shave off my beard would mostly go away. Others who join would look at CAP from that point of view, rather than CAP units kissing the hinterpart of prospective members. Have a long-standing set of traditions that prospective members either respect or reject. If they reject, then shake hands and move on.
When you join the AF, you accept standards. when you join the Marines, Army, Navy, CG, same thing. Problem isn't that we don't have any, it's that we have too many.
YMMV
Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2009, 02:22:37 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 17, 2009, 02:10:28 PM
But thats the problem vento. We dont have poper training. In my old squadron those guys can be at the computer all day and do this course. Is that going to make them better CAP officers? no it wont. They have checked a block and thats it. In my army unit, you know how my soldiers get through the ICS courses? Our training NCO has the answers to the online tests. He gives them to the soldiers and says "Go fill in the answers. And thats what happens in many CAP units. they go through the motions of an online course without getting any sustantive training. I know Senior members that have been in for years and still dont know how to salute or how t recognize rank. But its all in level I right? and they all had that. But did it stick? apparently not. I have been to so many functions and seen the Wing Commander enter the room ans noby does anything or some one will say "room attention" (whcih is incorrect as well) so I am sorry but I just dont think online courses give you the actual hands on practice you need that a physical course would give you
My broken record, again - local issues do not reflect the national situation. If there is no proper reinforcement and use of the training, then you can have a Ph.D in CAP and it won't matter because there's no use for it.
I see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else. This is all they see from day 1. These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C. Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 17, 2009, 02:10:28 PM
Why are folks against CAP being more military? Or is that just hear on this board?
I don't think that's the case at all, here or otherwise. The problem is that because of our schizophrenic nature, we tend to swing the pendulum too far depending on who's agenda we're working on.
What we need is the intestinal fortitude across the board and up the whole chain to adopt a consistent set of SOP's, attitude, and consequences, and then just "do it", accepting the attrition, growth, and eventual higher performance that will come with changing the rules somewhat.
I have never, personally, met a "corporate type" who wasn't willing to stand at attention, salute once in a while, and say "Sir" like it wasn't a four-letter-word, as long as its met with the same respect in return, leaving the Napoleon's at home, and there aren't any "special cases".
Likewise, those who adopt the military-mindset need to occasionally lighten up a bit, and realize the world won't come to end if someone calls you by your first name once in a while.
I agree withyou Eclipse. We do need to synchronize more and adopt a set of SOP's and stick with it. Those that dont want to follow it will leave and those that do will stay.
And yes I am a military tyoe and I dont get upset whener some one calls me by my first name. i dont likeit but I dont get all bent out of shape about it. i realize where i am and who i am dealing with.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 17, 2009, 05:59:38 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 16, 2009, 09:52:11 PM
I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)
But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.
The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.
I disagree....to a point. Yes it would be wonderful idea to get new CAP officers to a weekend course to teach basic leadership. However, we only got so many weekends and even then a weekend is not really enough time.
If you look at the effort vs output you quickly see that would not pay off in the long run.
Smaller wings would have fewer of them per year then large wings which would slow up the training pipe line for that wing.
Even at a live course...how much hands on training will you get. Assume it is a 1700 Firday to 1700 Sunday course you get a grand total of 48 hours to get your training in. 16 hours for sleeping, 5 hours for meals, 1-2 hours in/out processing...that gives you 25 hours for actual instruction time. How many hours do you put aside for instruction and how many hours for hands on work?
Think this is a very good compromise between what would really be needed (a week long in-resident leadership course) vs the current very dry, very incorrect ECI-13.
The State defense Force drills one weekend a month. Their OCS program is one weekend a month for a year. I am not suggesting that but why cant we have a CAP OBC over the course of a weekend? We do it with SLS and CLC.
Flyguy.....We give a week end for SLS, CLC, Air Show, TLC, UCC, Wing Confernce, 8-10 SAREXs,.....now you want an OBC....how often should we do it? Since it is a basic course it would have to be atleast every quarter just to keep up with new recruiting.
NVWG could not support that. We have a hard enough time supporting the required training now....and I think we don't do SLS/CLC/UCC often enough to keep our members well trained.
How long to hear something back for registration? Ive been waiting 3 days now with no response.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 18, 2009, 03:34:38 AM
Flyguy.....We give a week end for SLS, CLC, Air Show, TLC, UCC, Wing Confernce, 8-10 SAREXs,.....now you want an OBC....how often should we do it? Since it is a basic course it would have to be atleast every quarter just to keep up with new recruiting.
NVWG could not support that. We have a hard enough time supporting the required training now....and I think we don't do SLS/CLC/UCC often enough to keep our members well trained.
Well sir,
OBC wouldnt be for everybody. The ES folks could still do their SARex'x. they wouldnt be needed for OBS. Cadets could still do their thing. they arent needed and folks doing SLS and CLC wouldnt be needed either. Cant you run concurrent trainng on the same weekend at different locations?
Where are you going to get the extra, trained and qualified, bodies to teach the course? Many places don't have enough to go around as it is.
Around here, it seems to be the same bunch of folks who teach all of the PD classes - SLS, CLC, and our local Project Officers Training Course, among others. You can't just grab someone off the street and stick him/her up in front of a classroom and expect satisfactory results.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 18, 2009, 07:27:07 AMWell sir,
OBC wouldnt be for everybody. The ES folks could still do their SARex'x. they wouldnt be needed for OBS. Cadets could still do their thing. they arent needed and folks doing SLS and CLC wouldnt be needed either. Cant you run concurrent trainng on the same weekend at different locations?
The problem...at least here in Southern Nevada....is that the core people doing the work are all the same. We just don't have enough good instructors for them to "do their one thing". We are always trying to expand but it is hard to get a training cadre together.
Hence my reluctance to endores a new manditory weekend training course that would by definition would have to be offered before SLS. I already have a problem with CAP not offering enough
TIMELY training. We already have to wait six months to a year for SLS to roll around again.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 18, 2009, 07:27:07 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 18, 2009, 03:34:38 AM
Flyguy.....We give a week end for SLS, CLC, Air Show, TLC, UCC, Wing Confernce, 8-10 SAREXs,.....now you want an OBC....how often should we do it? Since it is a basic course it would have to be atleast every quarter just to keep up with new recruiting.
NVWG could not support that. We have a hard enough time supporting the required training now....and I think we don't do SLS/CLC/UCC often enough to keep our members well trained.
Well sir,
OBC wouldnt be for everybody. The ES folks could still do their SARex'x. they wouldnt be needed for OBS. Cadets could still do their thing. they arent needed and folks doing SLS and CLC wouldnt be needed either. Cant you run concurrent trainng on the same weekend at different locations?
That's the problem - there shouldn't be "ES People", "Cadet People", "AE People" and "PD People" - we're all
members with the same mission, and especially at the baseline of training should all be sitting in the same classes.
Quote from: Flying Pig on December 18, 2009, 06:33:47 AM
How long to hear something back for registration? Ive been waiting 3 days now with no response.
I heard back in two days, but that was with the first group. I get the feeling that he's a bit overwhelmed at the moment.
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cap_university/latest_pd_news.cfm/ (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cap_university/latest_pd_news.cfm/)
OBC Update!
[/b][/color](16 Dec 09)[/color]
Classesare filled through 15 MAY 2010, future requests will be placed in the 1July class until filled. If unable to submit registration form, pleasesend name, CAP ID, and e-mail address to: (officerbasiccourse@capnhq.gov)officerbasiccourse@capnhq.gov[/color][/email]
^ They need to open this thing up better. Let people take it when they want to take it. Why "classes" to begin with??
I just don't get why they limit enrollment.
Quote from: Spike on December 19, 2009, 01:45:29 AM
^ They need to open this thing up better. Let people take it when they want to take it. Why "classes" to begin with??
I just don't get why they limit enrollment.
A finite number of licenses. Considering that a lot of people can challenge the whole thing in about an hour, hopefully they will
open up complete licenses as they come available.
I'd also be willing to bet they have to create 180 manual ID's for each group, and that is hard enough without having to figure out who's done and who's not, so I can understand just killing the whole group and starting over each 90 days period.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 18, 2009, 06:18:28 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 18, 2009, 07:27:07 AMWell sir,
OBC wouldnt be for everybody. The ES folks could still do their SARex'x. they wouldnt be needed for OBS. Cadets could still do their thing. they arent needed and folks doing SLS and CLC wouldnt be needed either. Cant you run concurrent trainng on the same weekend at different locations?
The problem...at least here in Southern Nevada....is that the core people doing the work are all the same. We just don't have enough good instructors for them to "do their one thing". We are always trying to expand but it is hard to get a training cadre together.
Hence my reluctance to endores a new manditory weekend training course that would by definition would have to be offered before SLS. I already have a problem with CAP not offering enough TIMELY training. We already have to wait six months to a year for SLS to roll around again.
SARDragon and Lordmoaner,
You make a good point. I didnt consider that. That would be a challenge
Quote from: Eclipse on December 18, 2009, 06:55:47 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 18, 2009, 07:27:07 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 18, 2009, 03:34:38 AM
Flyguy.....We give a week end for SLS, CLC, Air Show, TLC, UCC, Wing Confernce, 8-10 SAREXs,.....now you want an OBC....how often should we do it? Since it is a basic course it would have to be atleast every quarter just to keep up with new recruiting.
NVWG could not support that. We have a hard enough time supporting the required training now....and I think we don't do SLS/CLC/UCC often enough to keep our members well trained.
Well sir,
OBC wouldnt be for everybody. The ES folks could still do their SARex'x. they wouldnt be needed for OBS. Cadets could still do their thing. they arent needed and folks doing SLS and CLC wouldnt be needed either. Cant you run concurrent trainng on the same weekend at different locations?
That's the problem - there shouldn't be "ES People", "Cadet People", "AE People" and "PD People" - we're all members with the same mission, and especially at the baseline of training should all be sitting in the same classes.
Thats not true Elclipse. I have an 85 year old member in my squadron who was a Tuskegee Airmen. he flew inWW2 and Korea. he has no interest in ES whatsoever. He joined CAP towork with our youth. He is a pilot and he get a form 5 every year. But he just gets it to go up and stay current. he likes the comraderie of themeetings and he likes working with the cadets. If we tried to MAKE him do ES would wouldnt hang around and he would leave. Now do I want that?
He comes to the meetings and talks to the cadets and he goes home. Doesnt do any weekend things. doesnt do any ES stuff and thats fime Youpick and choose what you do inCAP. I didnt really start getting involved inES until last year. Its takes enough to run a cadet unit. I only have limited time to give to CAP.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 19, 2009, 02:23:03 AM
He comes to the meetings and talks to the cadets and he goes home. Doesnt do any weekend things.
And that is fine as he has self-limited his involvement and expectations in CAP. But if anyone expects to advance in the organization and assume some of the responsiblities of running the organization instead of relying on other people to do it for them, then they need to take OBC.
Quote from: Short Field on December 19, 2009, 03:31:14 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 19, 2009, 02:23:03 AM
He comes to the meetings and talks to the cadets and he goes home. Doesnt do any weekend things.
And that is fine as he has self-limited his involvement and expectations in CAP. But if anyone expects to advance in the organization and assume some of the responsiblities of running the organization instead of relying on other people to do it for them, then they need to take OBC.
Oh, I completeky agree. I was replying to the comment that Eclipse made about ALL members should be engrosssed in all three missions. I 100% agree with what you said Short Field
THe emphasis of Eclipse's statement was that all members should have the same BASELINE training. Just because you a CP-type, doesn't mean you don't need to have a clue about ES.
I'm in 15 MAY class. Which works out perfectly.
Quote from: arajca on December 19, 2009, 02:31:18 PM
THe emphasis of Eclipse's statement was that all members should have the same BASELINE training. Just because you a CP-type, doesn't mean you don't need to have a clue about ES.
What if I have no interest in ES? Are they going to make me participate in something I dont want to?
PD 101
CAP has three missions: Emergency Services, Cadet Programs, and Aerospace Eduation. There is nothing that says you have to be active in all three.
CAP OBC is a major step on the Professional Development path. Members progress in Professional Development so they are better prepared to help run their organizations by filling command as well as staff positions. Members who do not progress in PD are still valuable assets, but are failing to prepare themselves for greater service. If a member just wants to fly, drive the van, hand out uniforms, or watch cadets drill, there is still a place for them. But they are only kidding themselves if they believe PD is unimportant to the long term sucess of the organization. That puts them in the same category as the people who believe they don't need to bother reading the regs because "they already know how to do it right" based on their (1) degree, (2) job, (3) military background, (4) cadet experience 20 years ago, or (5) just being smarter than anyone else.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 19, 2009, 09:58:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 19, 2009, 02:31:18 PM
THe emphasis of Eclipse's statement was that all members should have the same BASELINE training. Just because you a CP-type, doesn't mean you don't need to have a clue about ES.
What if I have no interest in ES? Are they going to make me participate in something I dont want to?
Ah...the idea of "University" in CAP. When one attends a University, the idea is to become a well rounded person. Thus the Engineers study literature, learn foreign languages, take astronomy classes and even music. One must complete and pass the curriculum to obtain the degree regardless of their interest.
The same would apply here.
But we are not a university.....
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 19, 2009, 09:58:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 19, 2009, 02:31:18 PM
THe emphasis of Eclipse's statement was that all members should have the same BASELINE training. Just because you a CP-type, doesn't mean you don't need to have a clue about ES.
What if I have no interest in ES? Are they going to make me participate in something I dont want to?
Make you participate. No. Nothing above said you had to participate, just that you should have an idea of ES is about.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 19, 2009, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 19, 2009, 09:58:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 19, 2009, 02:31:18 PM
THe emphasis of Eclipse's statement was that all members should have the same BASELINE training. Just because you a CP-type, doesn't mean you don't need to have a clue about ES.
What if I have no interest in ES? Are they going to make me participate in something I dont want to?
So, I should tell this 85 year old man who volunteers his free time to come out and help us out that he "HAS" to take ICS courses and that he HAS to go to SAREx's?
Ah...the idea of "University" in CAP. When one attends a University, the idea is to become a well rounded person. Thus the Engineers study literature, learn foreign languages, take astronomy classes and even music. One must complete and pass the curriculum to obtain the degree regardless of their interest.
The same would apply here.
Why would the 85 year old member need to take any ICS course if he does not plan on participating in ES and earning a qualification in a ES achievement? As a matter of fact, you don't even need to take any ICS couse to earn your GES achievement.
Why do you have to tell the 85 year old member anything??? It is obvious from what you have said that he is not planning on doing ANYTHING except what he is doing now. Just be thankful he is still making it to the meetings.
Quote from: Short Field on December 20, 2009, 03:58:49 AM
Why would the 85 year old member need to take any ICS course if he does not plan on participating in ES and earning a qualification in a ES achievement? As a matter of fact, you don't even need to take any ICS couse to earn your GES achievement.
Why do you have to tell the 85 year old member anything??? It is obvious from what you have said that he is not planning on doing ANYTHING except what he is doing now. Just be thankful he is still making it to the meetings.
I agree. Thats what I was saying.
Let's not get into this ES People VS AE people VS CP people VS comm people VS what ever people.
Fly guy was not trying to say that there are any one type who do just one thing. He was trying to counter my argument that adding a new weekend OBC course was too much. He was saying that in his wing they could hold an OBC and do a SAREX and do TLC because they have got a lot of people....enought to cover all their missions.
If we want to argue about how much cross mission training our officers need....take it to a new thread.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 20, 2009, 08:06:02 AM
Let's not get into this ES People VS AE people VS CP people VS comm people VS what ever people.
Fly guy was not trying to say that there are any one type who do just one thing. He was trying to counter my argument that adding a new weekend OBC course was too much. He was saying that in his wing they could hold an OBC and do a SAREX and do TLC because they have got a lot of people....enought to cover all their missions.
If we want to argue about how much cross mission training our officers need....take it to a new thread.
Thats exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you lordmoaner. But Ididnt look at it from your perspective and you are right.
I still have not received my enrollment date yet, and there are members now who are getting enrollment dated in July and August. So it looks like Ill be waiting about a year to start. Way to go CAP. It was good idea I guess. Why is this any different than any other on line course CAP has?
Apparently OBC is slightly more controlled than other online studies currently deployed by CAP.
Below is part of the instructions for people taking the course in January.
A link to the software was provided (ommited in this post).
QuoteTo prevent the perception of individuals not doing their own work on the course, we have a "Lockdown" program that everyone has to load on their computer prior to taking a test in Blackboard.
Quote from: Flying Pig on December 22, 2009, 05:22:09 PM
I still have not received my enrollment date yet, and there are members now who are getting enrollment dated in July and August. So it looks like Ill be waiting about a year to start. Way to go CAP. It was good idea I guess. Why is this any different than any other on line course CAP has?
This right here
QuoteHi all,
I'm finalizing the officer basic course and it shouldbe ready to go on 1 January. There is something you can do prior to the courseto help the process.
To prevent the perception of individuals not doing their ownwork on the course, we have a "Lockdown" program that everyone hasto load on their computer prior to taking a test in Blackboard.
After you load the browser, you will have to first open the "Lockdown"then login to Blackboard to take a test.
Attached are instructions for the "Lockdown Browser".
Please load the program from the following site and let meknow if you have any problems.
I got that earlier today. Looks like a decent way to prevent cheating. I'll let you know how it works in two weeks.
I dont see how it does anything to prevent cheating, but OK.
Well it makes it a little harder. I'm pretty sure I could defeat it just because I have five computers in the house..... ;D
Quote from: Flying Pig on December 22, 2009, 06:10:12 PM
I dont see how it does anything to prevent cheating, but OK.
How do you cheat on an open book test?
Quote from: davidsinn on December 22, 2009, 06:18:16 PM
Well it makes it a little harder. I'm pretty sure I could defeat it just because I have five computers in the house..... ;D
And they will all have the same, or very similar, IP addresses. That may trigger something in the lockdown.
Unless all five connect to the internet independently, more than likely it would have one IP between the CO and his internal router/switch.
However, having the one external IP may allow him to use one of any of the five to take the course. Helpful if he has to fight for computer time like I do at my house. ;)
To the server, it would look no different.
If cookies or certificates are involved all bets are off.
I presume it may generate a unique key between the client and the specific machine.
External IP's for average households are not static. Unplug your modem and more than likely you will be assigned a different external IP each time.
Tying the authentication to a single IP would be a bad idea.
Quote from: SarDragon on December 22, 2009, 10:28:29 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on December 22, 2009, 06:18:16 PM
Well it makes it a little harder. I'm pretty sure I could defeat it just because I have five computers in the house..... ;D
And they will all have the same, or very similar, IP addresses. That may trigger something in the lockdown.
Apparently we have missed the point of this application. From the manufacturer's page:
QuoteExtended Feature List
* Integrates with Blackboard, ANGEL, Desire2Learn, WebCT, and Moodle
* Assessments are displayed full-screen and cannot be minimized
* Assessments cannot be exited until submitted by users for grading
* Task switching or access to other applications is prevented
* Printing functions are disabled
* Print Screen and capturing functions are disabled
* Copying and pasting anything to and from an assessment is prohibited
* Right-click menu options are disabled
* Browser menu and toolbar options are disabled, except for Back, Forward, Refresh and Stop
* Function keys are disabled
* Source code for the HTML page cannot be viewed
* Over 400 screen capture, messaging, screen-sharing and network monitoring applications are blocked from running
* The browser automatically starts at the login page for the institution's course management system
* URLs cannot be typed by the user
* External links don't compromise the "locked" testing environment
* Pages from the assessment aren't cached or stored in Internet Explorer's history listing
* Assessments that are set up for use with Respondus LockDown Browser cannot be accessed with other browsers.
It would seem that the point of this app is merely to force you to NOT be able to open a second browser window to the source material while taking the test. It only appears to restrict the functions of your web browser (really acts as a replacement browser...) during the time you are taking the test. I believe this tool is probably much more designed for College-level courses which are not of the Open Book, Correctable-to-100% type, like the OBC.
There are so many ways around the limitations of this product, that I question if it is even meant by NHQ as more than a cosmetic effort at adding rigor to the testing environment. It will still leave much of the 'integrity' of the test environment up to each individual.
Hopefully CAP officers taking this course will have the necessary integrity that the whole exercise is merely unnecessary effort.
Thom
Quote from: lordmonar on December 20, 2009, 08:06:02 AM
Let's not get into this ES People VS AE people VS CP people VS comm people VS what ever people.
Fly guy was not trying to say that there are any one type who do just one thing. He was trying to counter my argument that adding a new weekend OBC course was too much. He was saying that in his wing they could hold an OBC and do a SAREX and do TLC because they have got a lot of people....enought to cover all their missions.
If we want to argue about how much cross mission training our officers need....take it to a new thread.
I think the point is more about exposure rather than cross-training (so legit to keep in this thread?). I'd say even the lunch-time conversations at a weekend class between an ES guy, and a CP guy, could be beneficial to both and to CAP as a whole. A CP-only person shouldn't need to say take the 116 and assorted FEMA classes, but should know roughly, what ES is about, and who to send questions to.
OBC is about CAP Officership - something everyone involved in AE, CP, & ES should be developing. OBC applys to the "whole person", not to a specific mission area. Should every senior member take OBC? YES. MUST every senior member take OBC? NO. If a member is participating in a small niche, is happy with that niche, then by all means leave them in their niche.
I actually feel much better about a on-line OBC that is standardized across the county than having aperiodic classes taught locally by instructors who can barely read the slides.
I just submitted 10 of my squadron officers into the OBC. All are in for July 1 Start.
Quote from: vento on December 22, 2009, 06:05:02 PM
Apparently OBC is slightly more controlled than other online studies currently deployed by CAP.
Below is part of the instructions for people taking the course in January.
A link to the software was provided (ommited in this post).
QuoteTo prevent the perception of individuals not doing their own work on the course, we have a "Lockdown" program that everyone has to load on their computer prior to taking a test in Blackboard.
what if a member does not have a computer?I have several members inmy squadron that do not own computers. They either use the one at the squadron which is not our property or they use the one at their jopb. so they cant download anything.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 25, 2009, 08:17:27 AM
what if a member does not have a computer?I have several members inmy squadron that do not own computers. They either use the one at the squadron which is not our property or they use the one at their jopb. so they cant download anything.
A variety of possibilities come to mind:
- Squadron computer (as you mentioned)
- Computer owned by family or friends
- Shared computer at the public library
- Cyber cafes, etc
- Some schools / colleges may have open computer labs
Of course these may not be ideal situations for everyone, but they are possibilities. Someone with sufficient motivation and enough resources to really be an active member will find a way.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on December 25, 2009, 05:52:22 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 25, 2009, 08:17:27 AM
what if a member does not have a computer?I have several members inmy squadron that do not own computers. They either use the one at the squadron which is not our property or they use the one at their jopb. so they cant download anything.
A variety of possibilities come to mind:
- Squadron computer (as you mentioned)
- Computer owned by family or friends
- Shared computer at the public library
- Cyber cafes, etc
- Some schools / colleges may have open computer labs
Of course these may not be ideal situations for everyone, but they are possibilities. Someone with sufficient motivation and enough resources to really be an active member will find a way.
This issue deserves its own separate thread. (Actually, I didn't search, there might already be one or more...)
CAP has moved aggressively to an online presence and online functionality, and we aren't the only parts of society doing so. Anyone who lacks Internet access, at least on a semi-regular basis, will find themselves more and more disconnected from modern american society.
There are plenty of arguments to be made about how that affects those of differing economic classes, differing educational backgrounds, and even differing geographical locations.
The fact remains that CAP, including our training and education such as OBC, is moving online and we will need to find solutions to enable our members to participate in that online presence, or risk losing some of them.
Thom
The days of the internet are here, whether we like it or not. The days of shuffling paper all over the place are fading quickly. CAP is making progress in this arena. Eventually a member is going to have to get with the program or not. Nothing is excluding them from volunteering with CAP if they don't have internet access...
I suppose it would be like complaining that an online school won't mail you the coursework...
Where the hell was I when this thread started?! Just found it today. >:(
Sent in my app.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 28, 2009, 12:25:28 AM
The days of the internet are here, whether we like it or not. The days of shuffling paper all over the place are fading quickly. CAP is making progress in this arena. Eventually a member is going to have to get with the program or not. Nothing is excluding them from volunteering with CAP if they don't have internet access...
I suppose it would be like complaining that an online school won't mail you the coursework...
These days a phone has internet access. A music player has internet access. An E-book has internet access. Those without internet, let alone a computer really do need to get with the program. And if it is an issue of cost (a non factor with the computer cost or the low end internet providers), the issue should be with CAP membership as well. Nothing is stopping Joe Broke from being in CAP, but being able to participate in anything more than a "attending meetings" capability would be hindered. Just a reality of life.
As for parents who limit their teens access to a computer or the internet? Nuts. This isn't 1993, and not everyone online is a sexual predator.
I understand and agree that much of our society is moving to an internet basis for many requirements. This is, as has been said, a sign of our times and our reliance on technology will only be deepening in the future. I will not argue the benefits or complications with the usage of technology as I am a certifiable computer geek. I would however like everyone to pause and think about the fact that much of our society lives in poverty. The people who tend to feel that everyone has iPod's and home internet computers are part of the society that does have those items. It is human nature to think everyone is like you (figuratively – I'm not flaming). In fact many are not. Some are far richer and some are far poorer. I for one am a HUGE fan of online activities. I also am a HUGE fan of making sure we scaffold (provide needed support) for individuals who are not able to meet the technology requirements that so many of us can. We need to make sure that these individuals are not made to feel any less capable because of socio economic issues that they may or may not have any control over. To do otherwise allow the formation of an ability gap that is based not on an individual's capability or drive but instead where they reside in the economic food chain.
I love blackboard and online tools, but let's make sure that the playground tries to stay level for all of our members. I teach in an urban school in New York and I would hate to have some of my students that do not know if they have a place to sleep at night, have a barrier that might not allow them to participate fully in every aspect of our organization.
Just my thoughts.
Again though, if someone is worried about having a place to sleep, is CAP really the best activity for them? How much can they get out of it if they can put little into it (and CAP is pretty much that kind of relationship).
Back on topic...
I started the course tonight, and made it through the first three chapters. Basically a review of leadership programs I've already taken, but the material was presented fairly well.
Quote from: EMT-83 on December 29, 2009, 04:37:17 AM
Back on topic...
I started the course tonight, and made it through the first three chapters. Basically a review of leadership programs I've already taken, but the material was presented fairly well.
Were any of those from CAP, and if so, SM or cadet? If not, were they military, or something else? The only one I've taken was a (free) online class from DAU on Integrated Product Team Leadership. There are some generic qualities of good leadership that would apply to engineering, CAP and the military, but there isn't much in a 6 hour class where 3 of them were just defining terms (most of which didn't apply to non-DOD agencies).
^ National Fire Academy fire officer training.
I've only scratched the surface with the OBC, but the material seems similar, using CAP terminology and scenarios. I remember having fun with role playing on Group Dynamics in a classroom setting; just reading about it on-line didn't really do justice to the topic.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on December 29, 2009, 01:33:52 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 28, 2009, 12:25:28 AM
The days of the internet are here, whether we like it or not. The days of shuffling paper all over the place are fading quickly. CAP is making progress in this arena. Eventually a member is going to have to get with the program or not. Nothing is excluding them from volunteering with CAP if they don't have internet access...
I suppose it would be like complaining that an online school won't mail you the coursework...
These days a phone has internet access. A music player has internet access. An E-book has internet access. Those without internet, let alone a computer really do need to get with the program. And if it is an issue of cost (a non factor with the computer cost or the low end internet providers), the issue should be with CAP membership as well. Nothing is stopping Joe Broke from being in CAP, but being able to participate in anything more than a "attending meetings" capability would be hindered. Just a reality of life.
As for parents who limit their teens access to a computer or the internet? Nuts. This isn't 1993, and not everyone online is a sexual predator.
Yes, but you have a lot of 60 year old and older senior members that dont know how to use the internet. Everybody didnt grow up in a household where the internet was taught. Everyone doesnt know what an ISP or an email address. and the older some people get , the less they want to learn new skills. SO in you guys anwer, we just disregard them and tell them so sad too bad. I have a CAP parent who doesnt has a computer but doenst haveinternet service. DO I tell her "oh well, sorry your son cant be a productive member because you guys dont have internet access" CAP will then become an eclusive organization only for the priviledged. That isnt right at all.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 29, 2009, 01:08:14 PM
DO I tell her "oh well, sorry your son cant be a productive member because you guys dont have internet access" CAP will then become an eclusive organization only for the priviledged. That isnt right at all.
I can't think of a single thing that is required that doesn't have a "non-internet" way of completing it. The OBC is optional, moving in the PD levels in optional, etc. If anything, I think our organization can go a bit too far sometimes with the amount of exceptions, waivers, equivalences, etc that are provided.
I can't think of a single cadet aged youth that has not had a "how to use a computer" class in school. It's standard curriculum in my state. Freshmen in college take "introduction to computers" which requires they learn to be able to use word processing applications, navigate through the operating system and find their way around the internet.
Many colleges have online portions of their traditional inresidence courses.
Latest studies show that over 80% of Americans have internet access and more than 50% of them have devices that can access the internet wirelessly. 63% of American adults don't just have internet access, but have broadband access in their homes. (factor out those that are below cadet age and those over say 75 (CAP's numbers drop off pretty significantly past 75) and I'd say that our members are probably significantly above average when it comes to access to the internet - at home.
Also, many studies show that it isn't generation "Y" that is the largest growing population of internet users, but those considered to be elderly. Another interesting bit of info I just found is that Black Americans are the most active users of mobile internet, showing twice the national average of usage between 2007 and 2009, also citing that 64% of Black Americans have broadband internet access at home.
Just sayin...
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 29, 2009, 01:25:51 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 29, 2009, 01:08:14 PM
DO I tell her "oh well, sorry your son cant be a productive member because you guys dont have internet access" CAP will then become an eclusive organization only for the priviledged. That isnt right at all.
I can't think of a single thing that is required that doesn't have a "non-internet" way of completing it. The OBC is optional, moving in the PD levels in optional, etc. If anything, I think our organization can go a bit too far sometimes with the amount of exceptions, waivers, equivalences, etc that are provided.
I can't think of a single cadet aged youth that has not had a "how to use a computer" class in school. It's standard curriculum in my state. Freshmen in college take "introduction to computers" which requires they learn to be able to use word processing applications, navigate through the operating system and find their way around the internet.
Many colleges have online portions of their traditional inresidence courses.
Latest studies show that over 80% of Americans have internet access and more than 50% of them have devices that can access the internet wirelessly. 63% of American adults don't just have internet access, but have broadband access in their homes. (factor out those that are below cadet age and those over say 75 (CAP's numbers drop off pretty significantly past 75) and I'd say that our members are probably significantly above average when it comes to access to the internet - at home.
Also, many studies show that it isn't generation "Y" that is the largest growing population of internet users, but those considered to be elderly. Another interesting bit of info I just found is that Black Americans are the most active users of mobile internet, showing twice the national average of usage between 2007 and 2009, also citing that 64% of Black Americans have broadband internet access at home.
Just sayin...
I wasnt saying that CAP cant do things in a non computer way. i was commenting on his comment that eventually we wil go to all internet service. Thisis getting off the subject, but come to Martin Luther King HS sometime. Sure they offer a computer class as per the state curriculum. The quality of that class? Well, it leaves something to be desired usually. of course most teens know how to use the internet. i was speakingof adults and thefew teens that dont.
Again, didnt mean to get off topic. just sayin.
You know, if we were basing things on the lowest common denominator, we'd still be arguing if the Earth is flat, or how to make a jet engine...
Just got this today:
QuoteSubject: Extension of enrollment window for ADL-13
Greetings all-
Since the launch of the Officer Basic Course (OBC) on 10 December, nearly 1000 members have registered for the course... an absolutely outstanding response from the membership to this new program. It's been an embarrassment of riches, however, as we have already filled several classes and are working on July 2010 enrollments.
Due to overwhelming demand for the Officer Basic Course and the need for members to complete their Level II training, as an alternative, ADL-13 enrollments will be now be accepted through normal AU A4/6 channels until 1 July 2010. Of course, members still have the option of enrolling in the new Officer Basic Course, but should be mindful that we are now filling the July 2010 class... so there will be a wait. Members should consider both options as they plan their Level II progression. See the CAP University portion of the capmembers.com website for details.
Please share this information with your professional development officers and commanders.
Very Respectfully,
Bobbie-Jean Tourville
Bobbie-Jean Tourville
Chief, Professional Development
HQ Civil Air Patrol
^ opps
Glad to see what they are doing about it.
Just completed the OBC, good course :
Quote from: chief2 on December 30, 2009, 11:48:59 PM
Just completed the OBC, good course :
Done all ready? :o
I thought I was making progress...guess I should get off CAP Talk and complete some more sections.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 09, 2009, 04:20:00 AM
Quote from: cdk77 on December 09, 2009, 03:34:31 AM
Quote from: EMT-83 on December 09, 2009, 02:52:49 AM
My application has been submitted, along with two others from my squadron. I wonder how many were sent in today?
I submitted mine. So at least 4.
I wonder how many slots are available....
175-185 slots available.
And boy do they go fast.
Just finished, had to get it done before I go away for a week of training for the day job.
Overall, the course was better than I feared, nowhere close to where I hoped it would be. For all the time they spent working on it, the grammar, spelling, and punctuation were pretty awful in some places, spot on in others. The content was definitely better than I was expecting, though much of it was familiar territory.
In general, I think it represents a reasonable attempt at a basic course for new officers, and it definitely isn't a waste of anyone's time.
Good Luck to everyone else!
Thom
Quote from: Thom on January 02, 2010, 05:40:43 AM
Just finished, had to get it done before I go away for a week of training for the day job.
Overall, the course was better than I feared, nowhere close to where I hoped it would be. For all the time they spent working on it, the grammar, spelling, and punctuation were pretty awful in some places, spot on in others. The content was definitely better than I was expecting, though much of it was familiar territory.
In general, I think it represents a reasonable attempt at a basic course for new officers, and it definitely isn't a waste of anyone's time.
Good Luck to everyone else!
Thom
From the way my wife was describing it, it's sounds like it would be a better requirement for a lower rank than Captain. I would expect a someone with the TIG to get Captain to know most of that stuff by now.
Quote from: davidsinn on January 02, 2010, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: Thom on January 02, 2010, 05:40:43 AM
Just finished, had to get it done before I go away for a week of training for the day job.
Overall, the course was better than I feared, nowhere close to where I hoped it would be. For all the time they spent working on it, the grammar, spelling, and punctuation were pretty awful in some places, spot on in others. The content was definitely better than I was expecting, though much of it was familiar territory.
In general, I think it represents a reasonable attempt at a basic course for new officers, and it definitely isn't a waste of anyone's time.
Good Luck to everyone else!
Thom
From the way my wife was describing it, it's sounds like it would be a better requirement for a lower rank than Captain. I would expect a someone with the TIG to get Captain to know most of that stuff by now.
Even though I haven't seen the information yet (I start next month). Would those that have seen it say this would have been better suited as something for Level 1 instead of Level 2?
In the RM, OBC is one of the first things they do, before they learn thier MOS Job. When they make Captain, they go to CCC (Career Captaons Course) where they can reclass or stay in the same feild, just get more training.
I think that we should do something similar, but not sure how, as we can always change Specialty Tracks.
I'm only halfway through the program, but I can easily say that this is not Level 1 material.
Much of the material presented is a review for me, but I don't know that I'm representative of the average first lieutenant. After all, I'm on CAP Talk!
Seriously, after doing personnel, administration, professional development and now deputy commander, I hope that I've learned something along the way. I suspect that most of the members of this forum are more involved than the average CAP member.
Finished the course yesterday. A great deal of the information is revew (for an IC at least) but there is some very good stuff in there about our relationship with the air force and leadership and group dynamics. Most of the modules are well written and the test questions are actually related to the material. I had to take each test a few times to score 100 on it but I never got less than 80 on the first try. The note at the end says it can take up to 2 weeks for the results to post. I am not sure where or how it shows up. I am hoping that after you take the course you can still refer back to the material. There is a very large set of references listed in the modules that will be useful going forward.
I had been enrolled in ECI 13 and I studied the material for that course as well. It was very slow going to work through and so old that it seemed pointless. I never actually took the test because I could never finish reading the course material. This course is very up to date and seems to focus more on things you need to know as a cap officer than who did what to the airforce in the vietnam era.
The respondus browser is a pain. I am not sure how it would prevent someone from doing someone elses work. All it seems to do is prevent monitoring of your computer and prevent you from looking at other webpages or software while you are taking the tests. Since they are all open book / open note I am not sure what the point is. It all worked as advertised and I am much happier with the online option than I was with ECI13.
Quote from: Flint on January 02, 2010, 04:57:53 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on January 02, 2010, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: Thom on January 02, 2010, 05:40:43 AM
Just finished, had to get it done before I go away for a week of training for the day job.
Overall, the course was better than I feared, nowhere close to where I hoped it would be. For all the time they spent working on it, the grammar, spelling, and punctuation were pretty awful in some places, spot on in others. The content was definitely better than I was expecting, though much of it was familiar territory.
In general, I think it represents a reasonable attempt at a basic course for new officers, and it definitely isn't a waste of anyone's time.
Good Luck to everyone else!
Thom
From the way my wife was describing it, it's sounds like it would be a better requirement for a lower rank than Captain. I would expect a someone with the TIG to get Captain to know most of that stuff by now.
Even though I haven't seen the information yet (I start next month). Would those that have seen it say this would have been better suited as something for Level 1 instead of Level 2?
IMHO, the material presented in the OBC is adequate for Level 2. There are 40 modules of 30 minutes each covering (at least scratching the surface) all facets of CAP, and it would be an overload for a new member doing Level 1. It takes roughly a year for a member to get ready for Level 2, and by that time such member would have some exposure to the regs and organization of CAP and have a pretty good idea about staying in the organization and renewing his/her membership.
It's true that there are grammatical and spelling errors all over the place and we hope they will be fixed, but the materials are definitely more closely related to CAP vs the info presented by ECI-13.
Definitely worth the time to do it.
My two cents ...
Did it really take about 20 hours to work through it?
Quote from: RiverAux on January 03, 2010, 04:04:26 AM
Did it really take about 20 hours to work through it?
My wife did it in about 12. She did 26 modules in one day because she just wanted to get it done.
You can definately spend 30 minutes on each module. I've been forcing myself to slow down and really study the material, plus review some of the references listed. It is tempting to just skip to the test, but what would be the point?
How do I get unmotivated senior members to take this course?
12 hours is a lot for some ofthe sm's in my squadron. Its hard to get them to come to weekely meetings. If i tell them they have to take an online course on their own, it would take them a year to get started. We havemembers thathave been in CAP since 1992 and have omly completed Levle 1 and they completed that becaue we mae them sit down and we went through it with them. They have never done anything on their own accord. Yet they keep renewing their membership.
Don't worry about it. If they aren't motivated enough to take this course, thats their problem. Why would we want to promote someone who isn't motivated to do the work.
It doesn't hurt the organization if they keep doing whatever amount of service they do at their current rank.
Flyguy,
Three years ago, no one in my squadron was interested in professional development. They considered it a waste of time. By working on the new members, who didn't know any different, completing SLS and CLC became the norm. Seeing new members getting promoted, while they didn't, prompted some older members start working on their specialty tracks. For some, they simply didn't know what to do and just needed a little guidance.
It didn't happen overnight, and there are always going to be members who aren't interested. I've got three members currently taking OBC and several more signed up for future sessions. Call it peer pressure or whatever, but the culture is slowly changing.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 03, 2010, 04:21:26 PM
How do I get unmotivated senior members to take this course?
12 hours is a lot for some ofthe sm's in my squadron. Its hard to get them to come to weekely meetings. If i tell them they have to take an online course on their own, it would take them a year to get started. We havemembers thathave been in CAP since 1992 and have omly completed Levle 1 and they completed that becaue we mae them sit down and we went through it with them. They have never done anything on their own accord. Yet they keep renewing their membership.
You can't make water flow uphill. It seeks its own level.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 03, 2010, 04:46:32 PM
Flyguy,
Three years ago, no one in my squadron was interested in professional development. They considered it a waste of time. By working on the new members, who didn't know any different, completing SLS and CLC became the norm. Seeing new members getting promoted, while they didn't, prompted some older members start working on their specialty tracks. For some, they simply didn't know what to do and just needed a little guidance.
It didn't happen overnight, and there are always going to be members who aren't interested. I've got three members currently taking OBC and several more signed up for future sessions. Call it peer pressure or whatever, but the culture is slowly changing.
Yeah, thats a good idea. In fact, we have a new member transfered from the SDF. he is very motivated. He is doing the courses. We shall see if it takes off. Thanks
Quote from: Gunner C on January 03, 2010, 07:31:23 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 03, 2010, 04:21:26 PM
How do I get unmotivated senior members to take this course?
12 hours is a lot for some ofthe sm's in my squadron. Its hard to get them to come to weekely meetings. If i tell them they have to take an online course on their own, it would take them a year to get started. We havemembers thathave been in CAP since 1992 and have omly completed Levle 1 and they completed that becaue we mae them sit down and we went through it with them. They have never done anything on their own accord. Yet they keep renewing their membership.
You can't make water flow uphill. It seeks its own level.
true Gunner,the poblemis and I am not tootingmy own horn, but I am probably the most active person in the squaddron, and I just got moed to wing staff, so i fear what is going to happen to my squadron. ionly that one motivated gentleman can motivate everyone else
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 03, 2010, 04:46:32 PM
Flyguy,
Three years ago, no one in my squadron was interested in professional development. They considered it a waste of time. By working on the new members, who didn't know any different, completing SLS and CLC became the norm. Seeing new members getting promoted, while they didn't, prompted some older members start working on their specialty tracks. For some, they simply didn't know what to do and just needed a little guidance.
It didn't happen overnight, and there are always going to be members who aren't interested. I've got three members currently taking OBC and several more signed up for future sessions. Call it peer pressure or whatever, but the culture is slowly changing.
+ 1
The fix for a failing program is working the program. It takes a few motivated individuals who will stay the course in the
face of inertia and naysayers, but it works every time.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 03, 2010, 07:38:20 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on January 03, 2010, 07:31:23 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 03, 2010, 04:21:26 PM
How do I get unmotivated senior members to take this course?
12 hours is a lot for some ofthe sm's in my squadron. Its hard to get them to come to weekely meetings. If i tell them they have to take an online course on their own, it would take them a year to get started. We havemembers thathave been in CAP since 1992 and have omly completed Levle 1 and they completed that becaue we mae them sit down and we went through it with them. They have never done anything on their own accord. Yet they keep renewing their membership.
You can't make water flow uphill. It seeks its own level.
true Gunner,the poblemis and I am not tootingmy own horn, but I am probably the most active person in the squaddron, and I just got moed to wing staff, so i fear what is going to happen to my squadron. ionly that one motivated gentleman can motivate everyone else
When I came back in, there were three of four of us who joined at about the same time. Everyone was sitting around in civvies and doing a lot of hanger flying. When we asked about training, they referred us to the wing email list and they went back to doing nothing. I was shocked and everyone just about quit. We were able to convince someone into giving us a level one course. By that time there were ten of us. We went on to change the entire squadron.
If it hadn't been for us, quite frankly, NC007 wouldn't be there right now (no combat control orientation course). I've found that the best cure for a lack-luster/inactive/lackadaisical unit is to go out and recruit. Leave them behind in the dust. No matter how persuasive you are, you can't get a dead mule to pull a cart.
Quote from: Gunner C on January 03, 2010, 08:42:40 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 03, 2010, 07:38:20 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on January 03, 2010, 07:31:23 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 03, 2010, 04:21:26 PM
How do I get unmotivated senior members to take this course?
12 hours is a lot for some ofthe sm's in my squadron. Its hard to get them to come to weekely meetings. If i tell them they have to take an online course on their own, it would take them a year to get started. We havemembers thathave been in CAP since 1992 and have omly completed Levle 1 and they completed that becaue we mae them sit down and we went through it with them. They have never done anything on their own accord. Yet they keep renewing their membership.
You can't make water flow uphill. It seeks its own level.
true Gunner,the poblemis and I am not tootingmy own horn, but I am probably the most active person in the squaddron, and I just got moed to wing staff, so i fear what is going to happen to my squadron. ionly that one motivated gentleman can motivate everyone else
When I came back in, there were three of four of us who joined at about the same time. Everyone was sitting around in civvies and doing a lot of hanger flying. When we asked about training, they referred us to the wing email list and they went back to doing nothing. I was shocked and everyone just about quit. We were able to convince someone into giving us a level one course. By that time there were ten of us. We went on to change the entire squadron.
If it hadn't been for us, quite frankly, NC007 wouldn't be there right now (no combat control orientation course). I've found that the best cure for a lack-luster/inactive/lackadaisical unit is to go out and recruit. Leave them behind in the dust. No matter how persuasive you are, you can't get a dead mule to pull a cart.
Wow Gunner,
You must have visited my squadron. Sounds just like it. Our problem is its beenthis way since 1984 when the squadron opened. Like I said, there are oneor two of us that do things outside of squadron events. But thats it. The others talk a big game. They say "yeah, i gotta get my mission pilot" but they never do. Keep inmind, most of our members are retired. They are 60 plus years old. So they have "been there, done that" I think they just want to belong to something. Not really interested in participating. but thats just my opinion. They treat meetings like an Elks club meeting. Tgeyshow up once a week to get away from the wife for a few hours.
its hard to recruit in my neighborhood because most people never heard of CAP or really understand what it is all about. They dont have the time nor money to participate heavily.
I just finished the course today. Here are a few comments.
The material is very well focused resulting in a good CAP specific course. This course would definitely be overload for someone working on their Level I. Although I certainly knew some of it before hand from other sources, I did learn from it. There are a few spelling errors but they don't significantly detract from the course. I don't think the respondus browser is that bad.
I can't directly compare it to the AFIADL 13, but I am sure the OBC is a far better course (based on hearsay). I have to give credit to those who developed it. :clap:
I also hope that some time in near future this course will replace the AFIADL 13 as an option for cadets working on the Eaker Award.
That will complete my requirements for Level II whenever I receive credit for it. I suppose I need to continue working on my Senior Rating. That will be my big hurdle for Level III.
Whew... all done.
I wonder if there's a way to open up the Blackboard license once someone completes the course, to let the next cohort begin. Seems like a waste of five weeks.
I just completed the course, It was fairly easy, I agree if you don't complete level I, you could be overwhelmed.
Hmmmm, I still have not received my enrollment information yet.
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 05, 2010, 05:00:16 PM
Hmmmm, I still have not received my enrollment information yet.
When did you apply?
My post doesnt have anything to do with this topic per se but I didnt neccessarily want to start a new one. But I wanted to talk about the CAP PD program in general. many of yall wonder why I argue for a tota revamp.
I know a guy that got promoted recently he has a Masters rating in FLight Ops. Now, this guy doesnt know anymore about CAP 60-1 thenhe did when he first joined CAP. but somene just marked him off as being a master rating.
I think that takes away from those of us that are trying to go through the system the right way.
Another member got promoted to MAJ and hadnt been to a meeting in over a year.
e-Service just posted under training my OBC completion as ECI-13 online course. It sure beats the old post card system. :)
Also, materials for all 40 modules are available to all members at http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/officer_basic_course.cfm
You'll be July or after for a start date. Or at the rate of enrollment, 2011......
Quote from: vento on January 08, 2010, 01:41:37 AM
e-Service just posted under training my OBC completion as ECI-13 online course. It sure beats the old post card system.
Thanks for the heads-up; mine posted as well. Only took three days, not the two weeks promised.
My wife's is up too. I've been in the program a year longer and she get's it posted first. :o Oh well since our F24's are going to ride in the same envelope we should have the same Lvl 2 date.
Just got an email. Because the first group got through the course so quickly, the secoond group (which I'm in) will now start 1 Feb.
I'm gald to see that someone is on the ball at NHQ and made a good decision. Hopefully they will continue to do that since I have heard that there has been phenominal enrollment.
Quote from: davidsinn on January 08, 2010, 05:18:32 AM
My wife's is up too. I've been in the program a year longer and she get's it posted first. :o Oh well since our F24's are going to ride in the same envelope we should have the same Lvl 2 date.
CAPF 24 for Level II can now be submitted via email, no hard copy or signature required. As the unit commander is the approving authority, it goes directly to NHQ.
My Level II posted in 2 days; but now have to route Level III through Wing, so it's gonna take a little longer.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 12, 2010, 03:31:20 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on January 08, 2010, 05:18:32 AM
My wife's is up too. I've been in the program a year longer and she get's it posted first. :o Oh well since our F24's are going to ride in the same envelope we should have the same Lvl 2 date.
CAPF 24 for Level II can now be submitted via email, no hard copy or signature required. As the unit commander is the approving authority, it goes directly to NHQ.
My Level II posted in 2 days; but now have to route Level III through Wing, so it's gonna take a little longer.
Still gotta have a signature on em. Our meeting was snowed out last week so I can't send them yet.
Negative. Signature is not required for submission via email.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 12, 2010, 03:36:53 AM
Negative. Signature is not required for submission via email.
Cite please.
I wouldn't accept an email form without one, especially when its dirt-simple to make an electronic signature.
Reference CAP Index 0-9, Paragraph 1. Some forms are not intended to be transmitted, but are for record-keeping purposes. These forms, and copies of other forms, (or the data they contain) may now be stored on a computer, electronically, without the need for a paper copy. If this method is chosen as an alternative to paper, units should perform frequent backups of the data. The following describes forms that may be transmitted through multiple echelons, and to National Headquarters, via fax or e-mail:
a. Forms listed with an asterisk (*) may be transmitted without a person's actual signature via e-mail only.
F24 is included on that list. Further, read the instuctions on the form itself.
Fair enough - anything to keep things moving.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 12, 2010, 03:50:56 AM
Reference CAP Index 0-9, Paragraph 1. Some forms are not intended to be transmitted, but are for record-keeping purposes. These forms, and copies of other forms, (or the data they contain) may now be stored on a computer, electronically, without the need for a paper copy. If this method is chosen as an alternative to paper, units should perform frequent backups of the data. The following describes forms that may be transmitted through multiple echelons, and to National Headquarters, via fax or e-mail:
a. Forms listed with an asterisk (*) may be transmitted without a person's actual signature via e-mail only.
F24 is included on that list. Further, read the instuctions on the form itself.
Huh. Learn something new everyday.
An email sent from the commander's email address, as listed in eServices, constitutes a valid electronic signature.
I am the PDO for the squadron. I just finished a CAPF 24 for a member who completed AFIADL 13 and was ready to advance to Level II. The AFIADL 13 completion had not showed up on the member's record. I prepared the CAPF 24 and attached it to an email. I also attached a pdf of the card showing completion of AFIADL 13. I forwarded the email to the squadron commander on Sunday to be forwarded to lmmeforms@capnhq.gov. The member's Level II and AFIADL 13 completion are posted on eServices today (Tuesday).
It is really hard to improve on this type of service.
Quote from: Short Field on January 12, 2010, 08:07:51 PM
I am the PDO for the squadron. I just finished a CAPF 24 for a member who completed AFIADL 13 and was ready to advance to Level II. The AFIADL 13 completion had not showed up on the member's record. I prepared the CAPF 24 and attached it to an email. I also attached a pdf of the card showing completion of AFIADL 13. I forwarded the email to the squadron commander on Sunday to be forwarded to lmmeforms@capnhq.gov. The member's Level II and AFIADL 13 completion are posted on eServices today (Tuesday).
It is really hard to improve on this type of service.
Not that hard to improve on. It should be in eServices just like promotions. There is no good reason it's not other than nobody thought to do it.
I love this. They've moved up group 2 again, it now starts for us on Tuesday!
Quote from: Flint on January 12, 2010, 09:32:47 PM
I love this. They've moved up group 2 again, it now starts for us on Tuesday!
That's great news. Im in the fourth group (set for 15 May) so maybe we will get bumped up after group three is finished.
Let's see if the next two groups can get through it as fast. Remember the first group did get two 3-day weekeneds which helps. My Personal goal is get it finished within a week and a half. That way it gives it enough time to show up in E-services and then for my promotion to go through Wing. And before anyone says Unit Approval, we just had a policy letter come out saying Wing will finalizae the decision for promotion to Captain.
Quote from: Flint on January 12, 2010, 11:22:17 PM
And before anyone says Unit Approval, we just had a policy letter come out saying Wing will finalizae the decision for promotion to Captain.
If you don't have groups that's how it's supposed to work. Mine only has to go through group.
Just started the course and it thus far is a major improvement over the ECI-13. I'll let you know if anything terribly interesting occurs.
Anyone know if I can be field-promoted overseas? This is the last thing I need to get my locomotive running... :D
Quote from: Flint on January 08, 2010, 09:22:02 PM
Just got an email. Because the first group got through the course so quickly, the secoond group (which I'm in) will now start 1 Feb.
I just received an email update that the date was moved again to 19 Jan!
I sent in my registration so we'll see if I can get in sometime before 2011.
Does anyone know how late they're booked through now?
Just got a response back (fast given that I e-mailed last night at the meeting!) and I was told I was slotted for late spring but that no further information would be available until 1FEB because of the whole people getting though faster than expected thing.
Congrats. I can't wait to start this on Tuesday. I wish it would open this Friday though. 3 day weekend I'd probably get it all done.
Took me 48 hours. Time to get my locomotive running. :)
48 hours? Not bad, maybe I can get some done next weekend after working though it at lunch all next week.
I know it's in this thread somewhere but I can't spend much time searching for it, how long till it posts on e-services?
At the end of the course it said, "Up to two weeks". *** EDIT : Just got an email that said it should be updated by next Friday - so hopefully 8 days in my case.
Basically, the course is 40 modules (topics) that each feature a 10 question test, for which 80% is passing. Most limit you to 20 minutes to complete the test. You can re-take a test that you failed.
It is open-book and open-note, despite this for some reason the tests must be taken in a browser that you download that prevents you from running other programs on your computer while taking each test. It is perfectly acceptable, according to the enrollment email I got, to print out the course materials (I printed the PDFs that are available to anyone) -- so I am not sure why the whole lockout-browser is required, but hey.. For the convenience and vastly improved course materials, I'll use whatever browser they want.
Overall, a very welcome change from the ECI course.
The reason for the lock out is to ensure that you don't get help from other people. It's so we can't use AIM or YIM.
Well, that's kinda my point -- it's open book -- you are allowed, in fact encouraged, to have the entire lot of class materials with you as you take the test.
But OK, let's say you still need the "extra help". You could:
1. Make a phone call.
2. Run your IM program of choice on another computer or on a cell phone/iPod Touch.
3. Have your cohort in cheating simply come over.
4. Run the browser in a virtual machine.
I could probably go on, but having taken the course and tests I really, really, really cannot see why you would need ANY help that isn't legitimately offered to you already.
Oh I know, they left a lot of holes in the idea. But this is CAP, nothing's perfect.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 14, 2010, 06:21:34 PMIt is open-book and open-note, despite this for some reason the tests must be taken in a browser that you download that prevents you from running other programs on your computer while taking each test.
It is because, AFAIK, Respondus/Respondus Lockout is the standard method of administering tests on the Blackboard system.
Also, because of the whole IM thing. Just because it is open-book doesn't mean it's not an individual effort.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 14, 2010, 06:21:34 PM
It is perfectly acceptable, according to the enrollment email I got, to print out the course materials (I printed the PDFs that are available to anyone)
I've already taken ECI-13 and am not eligible for this course. Where can I get the PDFs that you mention so that I might benefit from this improved material?
Quote from: NC Hokie on January 14, 2010, 08:29:09 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 14, 2010, 06:21:34 PM
It is perfectly acceptable, according to the enrollment email I got, to print out the course materials (I printed the PDFs that are available to anyone)
I've already taken ECI-13 and am not eligible for this course. Where can I get the PDFs that you mention so that I might benefit from this improved material?
http://capmembers.com/cap_university/officer_basic_course.cfm (bottom of the page)
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 14, 2010, 07:05:54 PM
Well, that's kinda my point -- it's open book -- you are allowed, in fact encouraged, to have the entire lot of class materials with you as you take the test.
But OK, let's say you still need the "extra help". You could:
1. Make a phone call.
2. Run your IM program of choice on another computer or on a cell phone/iPod Touch.
3. Have your cohort in cheating simply come over.
4. Run the browser in a virtual machine.
I could probably go on, but having taken the course and tests I really, really, really cannot see why you would need ANY help that isn't legitimately offered to you already.
IMHO, Lockdown browser is more to protect the integrity of the test than to avoid collaboration. With Lockdown, you can't copy/paste, screen capture, etc. This keeps the test questions from shared with others. BTW, Lockdown does not install on virtual systems.
Quote from: FlyingTerp on January 14, 2010, 10:02:05 PMWith Lockdown, you can't copy/paste, screen capture, etc.
No such thing...I'm not encouraging people to cheat, just pointing out the fallacy of the claims these software makers constantly make.
The test is online, open book. Why would anyone "cheat" with the sum total of human knowledge available with one click? Other than literally asking someone else for a specific answer, they ability to cheat in this environment is nearly impossible.
Quote from: FlyingTerp on January 14, 2010, 10:02:05 PM
BTW, Lockdown does not install on virtual systems.
Actually, it does. Tested it before I posted it.
Unexpected bonus: I conducted a Level 1 class for new members this week, and incorporated the CPPT scenarios from the OBC into the program. It worked well, having several shorter discussions rather than one long case study.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 14, 2010, 10:52:09 PM
Quote from: FlyingTerp on January 14, 2010, 10:02:05 PM
BTW, Lockdown does not install on virtual systems.
Actually, it does. Tested it before I posted it.
This is what I get when trying to run it in a VMWare image:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_QlQixpCt5kg/S0-vmbMS1GI/AAAAAAAAFnE/ptkKRChdnhI/s800/Lockdown.jpg) (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XwcjOD0ZpHngPkeU3ufbpQ?authkey=Gv1sRgCIbO3unnxY7o5AE&feat=embedwebsite)
Oh, well. I guess its impossible, then. ::)
I would suggest any further discussions of circumventing the Blackboard system be taken offline. For better or worse its what NHQ has picked.
With those of us in Group 2 starting on Tuesday I intend to start reading the materials heavily this weekend. When we sign into BlackBoard do we have to sit through an actual lesson? Or do we go directly to the test?
Quote from: Flint on January 15, 2010, 04:03:10 PM
With those of us in Group 2 starting on Tuesday I intend to start reading the materials heavily this weekend. When we sign into BlackBoard do we have to sit through an actual lesson? Or do we go directly to the test?
If you already downloaded and read the material from the CAP website, then you can go directly to the test using the LockDown browser. You don't have to sit thru the session.
Quote from: vento on January 15, 2010, 04:22:36 PM
Quote from: Flint on January 15, 2010, 04:03:10 PM
With those of us in Group 2 starting on Tuesday I intend to start reading the materials heavily this weekend. When we sign into BlackBoard do we have to sit through an actual lesson? Or do we go directly to the test?
If you already downloaded and read the material from the CAP website, then you can go directly to the test using the LockDown browser. You don't have to sit thru the session.
Do you get anything more out of the session that's not in the handouts? Are the sessons video or power point?
Quote from: Flint on January 15, 2010, 04:03:10 PM
With those of us in Group 2 starting on Tuesday I intend to start reading the materials heavily this weekend. When we sign into BlackBoard do we have to sit through an actual lesson? Or do we go directly to the test?
The same course material is presented, sometimes with links to relevant CAP and other publications that you are suggested to review. You can skip the lesson and begin the test immediately, but of course at that point you cannot review the linked material.
If you have been around CAP for a while and haven't had your head in the sand the entire time (and being here on CapTalk that's unlikely), the majority of the test questions should be easy enough. It's the standard type test where even if you don't know the answer, you can usually eliminate one or two of the choices as impossible/ridiculous. The rest, with a handful of exceptions, are right in the PDFs linked to earlier.
I breezed through most of it personally, but then again I may also be CAP's longest serving Lieutenant... :D I don't think I took more than half the allotted time on any test, and many were 2-3 minutes. The ones that took longer were the subjects in which I had zero knowledge (the Chaplain module comes to mind), but the ones I was familiar with (Standards, CAP History, etc) were a breeze. Some required lookups as I didn't recall the particular number of the referenced publication or some other similarly (seemingly?) obscure detail.
So my further advice would be to pay closer attention to those modules in which you have the least foreknowledge.
I did find a few things to be "CapTalk picky" about - such as the use of improper grade abbreviations (1LT was used a lot, for example) and I think there might have been some questions in which rank and grade were used interchangeably - and there was the curious statement that salutes are rendered by rank (as opposed to grade). Now, the same wording is in CAPP 151 and can be excused as more interchanging (even USAF does it when discussing whom one salutes), but in this case the following statement is made:
Quote from: Standards Module
Who salutes first if both are of the same grade? It is not necessary to salute but it is encouraged as a sign of mutual respect and a courtesy (and keeps you in the habit.)
I have yet to ever see, hear about, or be instructed to salute someone of the same grade. Not sure if my cadet training or adult observations skills are lacking; maybe those of you who were/are RM can weigh in -- if a Captain salutes another Captain as they pass one another, what would the other saluted Captain do and conclude?
Quote from: Flint on January 15, 2010, 04:26:04 PM
Do you get anything more out of the session that's not in the handouts? Are the sessons video or power point?
As I mentioned just above, there are some links to both CAP and external publications. The sessions are text.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 15, 2010, 04:53:55 PM
Quote from: Flint on January 15, 2010, 04:26:04 PM
Do you get anything more out of the session that's not in the handouts? Are the sessons video or power point?
As I mentioned just above, there are some links to both CAP and external publications. The sessions are text.
Joe thanks. That makes things easier and much more clear.
How long have you been an LT for?
10 years.
Last 3 as 1st Lt.
They must not like me. Ive submitted twice with no response.
Yup you got me beat.
I'm printing up most of the modules to read over this weekend. Hopefully Tuesday I can get most of the testing done.
Rob: they are probably ignoring you because you are from CA and a Sheriff's Deputy.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 15, 2010, 04:52:45 PM
Quote from: Flint on January 15, 2010, 04:03:10 PM
Quote from: Standards Module
Who salutes first if both are of the same grade? It is not necessary to salute but it is encouraged as a sign of mutual respect and a courtesy (and keeps you in the habit.)
I have yet to ever see, hear about, or be instructed to salute someone of the same grade. Not sure if my cadet training or adult observations skills are lacking; maybe those of you who were/are RM can weigh in -- if a Captain salutes another Captain as they pass one another, what would the other saluted Captain do and conclude?
That's interesting . . . WIWAD, 2d Lts didn't salute 1st Lts, and a WO/CWO didn't salute any other WO/CWO, regardless of grade (in fact, the standard was that even a W1 would address a W5 by his first name). Me thinks if a Capt saluted a Capt, he'd be looked at like a hog looking at a wrist watch. It's not wrong, just not done.[/slight rant]
It's interesting that this thread is now on its 12th or so page. It's almost as popular as a uniform thread, and given a chance, it'll prolly continue to a ripe old age. I guess the point here is that CAP members are interested in things other than the color of braid and exclusionary weights. This bodes well for us. PD is actually something that gets folks excited!
This whole thing about saluting has very little to do with the CAP Basic Officers Course, but it is a useful exchange of opinions. It has been too many years since my military service ended in retirement, but I would make a couple of observations.
Saluting is a courtesy. In saluting a superior, you are rendering a recognition that the superior rates recognition and that you are respecting his/her position in the hierarchy. If a Captain salutes a Captain(or any other rank saluting a like rank) you are simply rendering a recognition.
Too many folks, in my opinion, look at saluting as a demeaning act which is required of an inferior in rank to a superior in rank. IT IS NOT.
Quote from: bosshawk on January 15, 2010, 06:31:37 PM
Rob: they are probably ignoring you because you are from CA and a Sheriff's Deputy.
Ahhhh..I knew it.
Quote from: bosshawk on January 15, 2010, 06:52:34 PM
...
Too many folks, in my opinion, look at saluting as a demeaning act which is required of an inferior in rank to a superior in rank. IT IS NOT.
X2
Also worth mentioning... the OBC did clarify the difference between grade and rank. I don't remember the exact wording, but the example was something like two Captains, one promoted on January 2009 and the other one promoted on August 2009, they are on the same grade but the first Captain is the ranking officer for he was promoted earlier than the other one. Low ranking (same grade) officer salutes the higher ranking officer within the same grade was part of the lesson presented in the course as sign of mutual respect.
Quote from: bosshawk on January 15, 2010, 06:52:34 PM
This whole thing about saluting has very little to do with the CAP Basic Officers Course
Well, it does, because it is a part of the course. Instructional materials should achieve education, not confusion.
Quote from: bosshawk on January 15, 2010, 06:52:34 PM
Saluting is a courtesy. In saluting a superior, you are rendering a recognition that the superior rates recognition and that you are respecting his/her position in the hierarchy. If a Captain salutes a Captain(or any other rank saluting a like rank) you are simply rendering a recognition.
Too many folks, in my opinion, look at saluting as a demeaning act which is required of an inferior in rank to a superior in rank. IT IS NOT.
Agreed. In fact, there is nothing wrong with a superior officer saluting an officer of inferior grade/rank/whatever. In fact, most regulations (RM & CAP) expressly say that it is never inappropriate to salute given the nature of the gesture as a sign of respect.
Quote from: vento on January 15, 2010, 07:05:25 PM
Also worth mentioning... the OBC did clarify the difference between grade and rank. I don't remember the exact wording, but the example was something like two Captains, one promoted on January 2009 and the other one promoted on August 2009, they are on the same grade but the first Captain is the ranking officer for he was promoted earlier than the other one. Low ranking (same grade) officer salutes the higher ranking officer within the same grade was part of the lesson presented in the course as sign of mutual respect.
Right, and this is where (for me) the logic breaks down:
1. It is impossible to know the date of grade of an officer with whom you are unfamiliar.
2. You are required to salute all officers superior in RANK (which implies grade as well).
So if I were to come upon another 1st Lt, without an awkward line of questions to determine rank, neither knows who is required by regulation to render the salute. We can avoid discussion on the obvious problems of the salute needing to be rendered prior to conversation and the length of time that such a discussion might take (Beginning with "Huh?!").
The socially acceptable solution would be for each LT to simultaneously assume that the other is either higher ranking or lower ranking (and simply worthy of a respectful salute) and to fire them off at the same time (hence my question on the "opposing Captains"). Of course, then neither has initiated the salute FIRST, thereby throwing all barracks lawyers into a tizzy in one fell swoop.
The entire situation is avoided if the word "GRADE" is used in place of "RANK" -- you salute officers superior in GRADE to yourself -- which is what everyone expects -- Captains salute Majors, Colonels, and Generals/Admirals, not other Captains.
So the whole section makes no sense -- which was my point.
Quote from: Standards Module
o When outdoors and in uniform, salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank.
o Who salutes first if both are of the same grade? It is not necessary to salute but it is encouraged as a sign of mutual respect and a courtesy (and keeps you in the habit.)
If you change RANK to GRADE, the second point can be removed and there's no confusion.
Quote from: vento on January 15, 2010, 07:05:25 PM
Quote from: bosshawk on January 15, 2010, 06:52:34 PM
...
Too many folks, in my opinion, look at saluting as a demeaning act which is required of an inferior in rank to a superior in rank. IT IS NOT.
X2
Also worth mentioning... the OBC did clarify the difference between grade and rank. I don't remember the exact wording, but the example was something like two Captains, one promoted on January 2009 and the other one promoted on August 2009, they are on the same grade but the first Captain is the ranking officer for he was promoted earlier than the other one. Low ranking (same grade) officer salutes the higher ranking officer within the same grade was part of the lesson presented in the course as sign of mutual respect.
X3
OK, but when is the last time any of you guys have seen senior members salute each other? I have never seen it. I try to make a point of it for myself, but that's simply the former cadet in me.
It's been ages since I saluted a superior officer. I haven't done that since Tuesday.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 15, 2010, 08:46:15 PM
OK, but when is the last time any of you guys have seen senior members salute each other? I have never seen it. I try to make a point of it for myself, but that's simply the former cadet in me.
Last night I saluted my group commander. Same as every other Thursday night.
I will say that I never saw two officers of the same grade salute one another when I was on active duty.
Of course, officers in the O-1 and O-2 area were generally pretty liberal in their rendering a salute to one another.
I dunno. I worked for a living.
I was skimming through the thread, and I just want to confirm something and make sure I'm reading it correctly. I know we have the 90 days to complete the course from the date our group goes live.
But I thought I read that for each individual test there is a time limit once we start a particular module's test before it closes and grades the work completed?
I hope I was clear with my question, if not I'll be glad to try and fix it so y'all understand this Yankee's meaning.
Quote from: Flint on January 18, 2010, 04:56:12 PM
I was skimming through the thread, and I just want to confirm something and make sure I'm reading it correctly. I know we have the 90 days to complete the course from the date our group goes live.
But I thought I read that for each individual test there is a time limit once we start a particular module's test before it closes and grades the work completed?
I hope I was clear with my question, if not I'll be glad to try and fix it so y'all understand this Yankee's meaning.
That is correct.
There are 40 modules. You can take all the time you want to study/review each module. When you tell the system that you are ready to take the test for that module, you have 20 minutes (some are a bit longer) to complete that test. All of the tests are 10 question, multiple choice, 80% pass. You can retake tests that you fail.
You have 90 days to complete all 40 modules.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 14, 2010, 06:21:34 PM
At the end of the course it said, "Up to two weeks". *** EDIT : Just got an email that said it should be updated by next Friday - so hopefully 8 days in my case.
My ECI 13 has just been posted in eServices. Took 6 days. WTG National! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 20, 2010, 07:20:43 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 14, 2010, 06:21:34 PM
At the end of the course it said, "Up to two weeks". *** EDIT : Just got an email that said it should be updated by next Friday - so hopefully 8 days in my case.
My ECI 13 has just been posted in eServices. Took 6 days. WTG National! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Great news Joe. I started my tests yesterday and I've only got 14 left. Hope to have them done tomorrow.
If the second group moves along like Flint has since he originally started ... then we will all be in good shape. The time to wait wont be so long for the members who are scheduled to start sometime at the end of 2010. I am in the fourth group and maybe I can complete the OBC by March. Hopefully, if the fourth group gets to take the OBC ahead of schedule like the first two groups have. Keep up the good work Flint! ;D ;D
Flight it also helps that I've been in the program for 5 years. Most of the information in Unit 2 if you don't know after 5 years you're in trouble. Plus I'm also pushing myself so that I can be promoted by middle of next month before I go to a class being helped this way.
Addendum, the first group started on schedule.
I'd just like to let everyone know I finished the course today. Wasn't that bad. Now it's just paper work for the promotion.
I forget which page of this thread it's on. With the certificate that I can print off of black board is that enough for my PDO to put me in for Level II if this is my last requirement?
It would probably be fine, however he/she might want to wait the day or two to see it post to E-Services.
- When you think about it. Your promotion date or request date should not come before the date listed in e-services for the completion of the course...
- My guess is that the promotion wont go through until E-Services is updated.(E-Services will likely say you have not met all pre-requisites)
I recommend waiting....
Quote from: Flint on January 21, 2010, 03:54:37 AM
I'd just like to let everyone know I finished the course today. Wasn't that bad. Now it's just paper work for the promotion.
I forget which page of this thread it's on. With the certificate that I can print off of black board is that enough for my PDO to put me in for Level II if this is my last requirement?
The date that shows up in eServices is the date you finished the course, not the date it's posted. However, I would guess that the promotion would not go through until it's posted, right? Wouldn't the system kick any promotion action back since ECI 13 is missing?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 21, 2010, 04:24:27 AM
Wouldn't the system kick any promotion action back since ECI 13 is missing?
I would have to assume that's the case but only experience will tell for sure.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 21, 2010, 04:24:27 AMHowever, I would guess that the promotion would not go through until it's posted, right? Wouldn't the system kick any promotion action back since ECI 13 is missing?
A duty performance promotion can't be clicked until the member is 3-flags green (PD level, TIG, age), but I understand NHQ will process
level-upgrades before they post if you include substantiation.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 21, 2010, 04:31:37 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 21, 2010, 04:24:27 AMHowever, I would guess that the promotion would not go through until it's posted, right? Wouldn't the system kick any promotion action back since ECI 13 is missing?
A duty performance promotion can't be clicked until the member is 3-flags green (PD level, TIG, age), but I understand NHQ will process
level-upgrades before they post if you include substantiation.
Unless it's done on paper. Thankfully the F2 and F24 can be e-mailed or faxed for 1st and 2nd LT. If going for Captain, hand carry to Group CC and than e-mail or Fax.
When does the level completion get noted? When all the requirements are posted, or when you are promoted?
In other words, if ECI 13 was all that I needed to complete level II, should it show as being completed when the ECI 13 is posted?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 21, 2010, 09:55:06 AM
When does the level completion get noted? When all the requirements are posted, or when you are promoted?
In other words, if ECI 13 was all that I needed to complete level II, should it show as being completed when the ECI 13 is posted?
You must still send a F24 up to national. I've waited a week for my emailed F24 to post Lvl 2and it's still not there.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 21, 2010, 09:55:06 AM
When does the level completion get noted? When all the requirements are posted, or when you are promoted?
In other words, if ECI 13 was all that I needed to complete level II, should it show as being completed when the ECI 13 is posted?
Level is completed after From 24 is processed through chain of command as approved.
- Which should only happen if ECI-13/OBC is documented as complete.
-- A professional development officer or personnel officer would fill out the form (request action) and up-channel it for approval.
---- You could fill it out yourself but you take an opportunity for someone to do their job... Some apprecaite and some may not appreciate that...
Promotion can only happen after the level is completed.
- Example: "Level 2" must be completed prior to being promoted to Capt. (duty performance promotion)
Paper promotions likely take longer as a whole then E-Services but would allow someone to view the OBC cert and start the process. The promotion paperwork could be the very next piece of paperwork signed after the level completion...
I believe someone stated earlier that it took 3 or less days for completion of OBC to show in E-Services which is reasonable. Anyone seen longer?
But for those who waited for OBC, whats a few more days to make most of the process paperless?
Without question the material in ECI 13 needed updating. However, I don't necessarily agree with the approach to make the completion of this important material easier. Is that really what we want or need?
What we really need are people that are effectively trained and knowledgeable as leaders. I do not see how this change helps to accomplishes that.
The only thing this changes allows for is more senior members to potentially attain rank more quickly (ie more bling). This is an objective that is not necessarily desirable, particularly if a member doesn't possess the appropriate skills -- and let's be honest, we have more than our share of those out there (at least in my experience).
Now, in fairness, ECI 13 did not necessarily accomplish this either. However, there are a couple important things that make it preferable over the new approach:
1. It required commitment and follow through on the part of the member. You had to submit test, study, etc. It was a bit more cumbersome process. As such, a member had to "want it" more. I consider this to be a good thing and it serves as an artificial barrier to keep those less committed from advancing further.
2. You actually had to study - at least a little bit. Sure, some of the material was outdated...even wrong. However, you had to read it. An open book test test with fewer questions, particularly on-line, means a quick search through the answers and done. What was achieved in doing so? Has anyone benefited? I'd argue no.
I'll try to keep an open mind on this thing but my initial reaction is this is a step in the wrong direction. But I'll also add that this type of course should really be a prerequisite before any senior member pins on an officer rank (expanded Level 1).
Quote from: A.Member on January 22, 2010, 01:28:26 AM
What we really need are people that are effectively trained and knowledgeable as leaders. I do not see how this change helps to accomplishes that.
Please provide some details on how OBC does a poorer job of training than ECI 13. Have you taken OBC and compared it to ECI 13? Your whole complaint seems to be that it isn't hard enough to make people "really" work and that too many people will be getting promoted now who don't deserve promotions.
Quote from: Short Field on January 22, 2010, 02:11:06 AM
Quote from: A.Member on January 22, 2010, 01:28:26 AM
What we really need are people that are effectively trained and knowledgeable as leaders. I do not see how this change helps to accomplishes that.
Please provide some details on how OBC does a poorer job of training than ECI 13. Have you taken OBC and compared it to ECI 13? Your whole complaint seems to be that it isn't hard enough to make people "really" work and that too many people will be getting promoted now who don't deserve promotions.
Read the paragraphs of my post subsequent to the portion you quoted.
And no, I have not completed the new course. It is not currently open to members that have previously met the requirement.
I did read them - and deleted most of my intial response in order to attempt to remain civil.
I totally fail to see any reason to make training harder just to weed out people who don't have the "commitment" to finiish. There is NOTHING I have see in CAP that is hard to do - outside of the frustrating and confusing processes we have self-inflicted on ourselves. I am all for making things easier - so we end up with better trained and motivated people. I am tired of losing people simple because they get tired of fighting the system to get the training they need and want.
Quote from: Short Field on January 22, 2010, 02:43:23 AM
I did read them - and deleted most of my intial response in order to attempt to remain civil.
I totally fail to see any reason to make training harder just to weed out people who don't have the "commitment" to finiish. There is NOTHING I have see in CAP that is hard to do - outside of the frustrating and confusing processes we have self-inflicted on ourselves. I am all for making things easier - so we end up with better trained and motivated people. I am tired of losing people simple because they get tired of fighting the system to get the training they need and want.
Then you clearly missed my point. I'm not arguing to make things more difficult simply for the sake of making it difficult. My argument is to make the training meaningful. I do not see this change to the program accomplishing this at all. I simply see it as a way for even more people to pin on rank for which they are not properly prepared. That is actually a step in the wrong direction.
Quote from: A.Member on January 22, 2010, 01:28:26 AMIt was a bit more cumbersome process. As such, a member had to "want it" more. I consider this to be a good thing and it serves as an artificial barrier to keep those less committed from advancing further.
Quote from: A.Member on January 22, 2010, 02:48:27 AMThen you clearly missed the point. I'm not arguing to make things more difficult for the sake of making it difficult.
Guess I missed the point as well.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 22, 2010, 03:06:52 AM
Quote from: A.Member on January 22, 2010, 01:28:26 AMIt was a bit more cumbersome process. As such, a member had to "want it" more. I consider this to be a good thing and it serves as an artificial barrier to keep those less committed from advancing further.
Quote from: A.Member on January 22, 2010, 02:48:27 AMThen you clearly missed the point. I'm not arguing to make things more difficult for the sake of making it difficult.
Guess I missed the point as well.
Then perhaps that's the fault of the messenger. :-[
However, if we want to cherry pick, I thought the leading sentences of the these paragraphs would make my point clear:
Quote from: me
What we really need are people that are effectively trained and knowledgeable as leaders...
Quote from: me
Now, in fairness, ECI 13 did not necessarily accomplish this either...
With this being a conclusion:
Quote from: meI'll try to keep an open mind on this thing but my initial reaction is this is a step in the wrong direction...
I had the ECI 13 course materials, and having taken the new course, I can safely say that I learned more *useful* information in the new course than I did studying the old material.
The new material is online, you can read it and (re)draw your own conclusions.
Did the old ECI 13 test have more than 400 questions???
First off, I agree 110% with Joe, the matterial in OBC is much more relevant.
Second, I just saw that my course completion posted to my e-services. Sweet it's up less than 48 hours after I finished the course.
Do you print a OBC certificate or get one mailed to you? I'm not reading all 14 pages if that has already been posted!
When I finished they gave me the option to print a certificate. I've got to go back in and print it up. I wasn't near a printer when I finished.
Quote from: Flint on January 23, 2010, 02:45:09 AM
Second, I just saw that my course completion posted to my e-services. Sweet it's up less than 48 hours after I finished the course.
WOW. Not bad! I'm still waiting for my CAPF 24 to work its magic. I don't know why I'm so impatient over this given that I can't pin on my tracks until April. ;D
Tom Petty was right: The waiting IS the hardest part.
Did my part for the next cohort! Finished the course this morning and must say I really enjoyed the whole process.
I have to admit I was tempted to skip straight to some of the quizzes knowing that I could retake it knowing the correct answers. But I stuck it out and took the time to study each lesson and actually learned quite a lot.
Hopefully other people in this session will finish up quickly so that they can start third session early also.
Looking forward to the the Benjamin O. Davis award!
^ Can you tell us one thing you learned in the course that you thought you already knew??
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 23, 2010, 02:34:01 PM
Quote from: Flint on January 23, 2010, 02:45:09 AM
Second, I just saw that my course completion posted to my e-services. Sweet it's up less than 48 hours after I finished the course.
WOW. Not bad! I'm still waiting for my CAPF 24 to work its magic. I don't know why I'm so impatient over this given that I can't pin on my tracks until April. ;D
Tom Petty was right: The waiting IS the hardest part.
I'm waiting for the F24 Magic to take hold myself. I believe it was emailed yesterday. As soon as it posts I'm promoteable. I can hear the faint sound of trains coming. :P
My group got an email today saying 16 Feb was our new start date, instead of 1 April.
Quote from: Flint on January 29, 2010, 09:21:13 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 23, 2010, 02:34:01 PM
Quote from: Flint on January 23, 2010, 02:45:09 AM
Second, I just saw that my course completion posted to my e-services. Sweet it's up less than 48 hours after I finished the course.
WOW. Not bad! I'm still waiting for my CAPF 24 to work its magic. I don't know why I'm so impatient over this given that I can't pin on my tracks until April. ;D
Tom Petty was right: The waiting IS the hardest part.
I'm waiting for the F24 Magic to take hold myself. I believe it was emailed yesterday. As soon as it posts I'm promoteable. I can hear the faint sound of trains coming. :P
My 24 took a few days to post, CAPF 2 broke all known speed records - I think 6 hours between the time I sent the form (and request) to Personnel and the time I checked eServices and saw it was done. :)
I still maintain that the new course is better than the old course. You can bemoan the testing procedures and the open book nature of the test, but the goal is to have you LEARN; reading the question and searching the electronic publications would still make you read and learn the right answer despite any inclination you might have not to.
Just the fact that the course material is in PDF and available to anyone who wishes to (re)read it is a gigantic step forward. The ECI materials I got were so re-re-re-re-photocopied that they were an absolute chore to read. Bad contrast, tilted on the page, etc...
Does anybody know what "Cohort" is open now? As Group PDO I wanted to send out an update but since i already have Level 4 I cant apply for the course. So if anyone has just applied and been accepted let me know. Thank you.
I got an email this morning that the Feb 16th (originally April or May) group could start today. Going to do my part to help the next cohort get moving faster then planed too.
Quote from: MikeD on February 09, 2010, 02:13:43 AM
I got an email this morning that the Feb 16th (originally April or May) group could start today. Going to do my part to help the next cohort get moving faster then planed too.
Thanks. I am in the 15th May Cohort. Enjoy the course!
After some network issues my Level 2 finally posted. Now awaiting the paperwork for those tracks.
Say, I'm in the original 1 April cohort but have not received any emails stating we will be starting sooner.
Can anyone send me a copy of that email?
Thanks,
Dr. Dave
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 22, 2010, 04:53:41 AM
I had the ECI 13 course materials, and having taken the new course, I can safely say that I learned more *useful* information in the new course than I did studying the old material.
The new material is online, you can read it and (re)draw your own conclusions.
Did the old ECI 13 test have more than 400 questions???
Totally agree. I took the ECI 13 last October at a wing PD conference, but due to a paperwork snafu, never got enrolled through AU. After several attempts, I decided to just take OBC and finished it tonight.
While there's a lot of opportunity to take the OBC without actually learning anything, it's a well-designed course if the person takes it seriously. The material is good and the PDFs make good quick-references. Overall, I give NHQ a lot of credit for the effort to improve both the content and delivery of this training.
Just my $0.02.
Quote from: flyboy76 on February 16, 2010, 03:33:56 AM
Totally agree. I took the ECI 13 last October at a wing PD conference, but due to a paperwork snafu, never got enrolled through AU.
How could you take it at a Wing Conference? Any wing giving these tests without the member being enrolled directly is asking for trouble with the USAF. They shouldn't even have the test to start with.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 03:41:00 AM
Quote from: flyboy76 on February 16, 2010, 03:33:56 AM
Totally agree. I took the ECI 13 last October at a wing PD conference, but due to a paperwork snafu, never got enrolled through AU.
How could you take it at a Wing Conference? Any wing giving these tests without the member being enrolled directly is asking for trouble with the USAF. They shouldn't even have the test to start with.
Didn't take the test, just the classroom portion. That was part of the snafu. Thought I was enrolled and attributed the fact that I hadn't gotten the materials to the printing backorder that I'd read about. Took the classroom portion and requested the test from AU. They indicated that I wasn't enrolled. So, I resubmitted the enrollment...no response...rinse...repeat...surrendered. OBC was my destiny, I suppose.
Ah! Bach!
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 04:56:19 AM
Ah! Bach!
Perhaps the greatest of all M*A*S*H lines. Pretty much says it all.
Hmm... I was told I would receive more information about my cohort 1 February, however I have not gotten an e-mail yet. I will probably send one this weekend.
Just got an email that my Cohort is starting tomorrow. My original date was April 15th.
I think they are doing a wonderful job managing this role out.
Quote from: rroberts on February 18, 2010, 03:22:53 PM
Just got an email that my Cohort is starting tomorrow. My original date was April 15th.
I think they are doing a wonderful job managing this role out.
How is it coming along for you?
Quote from: Flight Officer on February 23, 2010, 10:21:59 PM
Quote from: rroberts on February 18, 2010, 03:22:53 PM
Just got an email that my Cohort is starting tomorrow. My original date was April 15th.
I think they are doing a wonderful job managing this role out.
How is it coming along for you?
All finished. Took me about two days to do the tests. I had printed all the modules ahead of time and studied/made notes. I learned a lot from this course. They should send this course out to new people that want to get more involved / know more faster than what might be normal. Good job to all involved.
I got an email this morning that my Cohort starts today. I am in the fourth cohort that was scheduled to start in May but got rescheduled for April 1st. Looking forward to this course :D Anyone else starting today?
Quote from: Flight Officer on March 31, 2010, 04:59:59 PM
I got an email this morning that my Cohort starts today. I am in the fourth cohort that was scheduled to start in May but got rescheduled for April 1st. Looking forward to this course :D Anyone else starting today?
I did! I was originally scheduled to start in June, but I was bumped up to yesterday.
I finished the course about 20 minutes ago. (I was off today and used this as an excuse to procrastinate on other things.) Overall, I think this is a great course. It provides an excellent foundation for newer members to build upon. I must admit, I actually learned a thing or two.
I did not study for any portion of this course before I opened up the lesson in Blackboard. On most of the lessons, I only took a minute or two to skim through the information and then proceeded to take the test. There were a few lessons where I HAD to read through the entire lesson, because I was a little rusty; for example: 'Legal Basis for CAP' and 'Support to Civil & Military'.
I passed most of the tests first time. The few I didn't pass the first time were caused by brainfarts and blond moments. ;) I quickly passed them the second time. I usually didn't spend longer than 5 minutes on any particular lesson, including the quiz. As stated before in this thread, there were a few errors and irregularities, especially to any Regulation Nazi.
I considered most of the information presented to be a review of what I learned as a cadet. I was fairly recently a cadet and I attribute my quick completion of the course to that. I transferred to the darkside three years ago next Monday.
Since becoming a SM, this is the first course I've seen that was on par with what is in the Cadet Program. I hope that CLC, RSC, and NSC are just as well presented and informative. I highly recommend this course and will be encouraging others in my area to register for it. Kudos to the folks who put this together!
This has been my concern with the OBC since I completed it. The objective isn't to see how fast you can blow through the tests. There's some really good material presented, and you're doing yourself a disservice by not taking your time and reading it.
Competitive OBC! It's only taken four months to launch. Just to keep things fair, we ought to come up with divisions such as Prior Military Service, Non-Prior Service, Former Cadet, Professional Appointees who get captain immediately, 18-21 age bracket, 22-30 age bracket, 31-40 age bracket, Old Fart, etc.
Seriously, folks, Level One and Officer Basic Course should set the foundation and framework for each member's career of service to CAP and our country. If we expect to render professional-level service, we ought to take our education and training seriously. A recurring gripe during the Pacific Region Staff College this last week was "We heard this in Level One." Response: it's still a problem in CAP so we are re-emphasizing it. Gripe 2: I wish I'd known this in Level 1 or 2. Response: a summary version was there but maybe you glossed over it.
I don't necessarily agree with all the content, emphasis or short length of some of the topics in Level One and OBC; at least it's an attempt to get everyone started and on the same page. But it doesn't address the need to inculcate an attitude of commitment and service in our new members. That rests on the shoulders of squadron commanders who set the example (uniform wear, professional attitude, etc.) tone and enforce the standards in the unit. These should have been embraced by the time the member gets to group/wing level courses such as SLS and CLC, and region-level courses such as RSC.
YMMV
Quote from: Always Ready on April 01, 2010, 04:58:26 AM
I did! I was originally scheduled to start in June, but I was bumped up to yesterday.
I finished the course about 20 minutes ago. (I was off today and used this as an excuse to procrastinate on other things.) Overall, I think this is a great course. It provides an excellent foundation for newer members to build upon. I must admit, I actually learned a thing or two.
I did not study for any portion of this course before I opened up the lesson in Blackboard. On most of the lessons, I only took a minute or two to skim through the information and then proceeded to take the test. There were a few lessons where I HAD to read through the entire lesson, because I was a little rusty; for example: 'Legal Basis for CAP' and 'Support to Civil & Military'.
I passed most of the tests first time. The few I didn't pass the first time were caused by brainfarts and blond moments. ;) I quickly passed them the second time. I usually didn't spend longer than 5 minutes on any particular lesson, including the quiz. As stated before in this thread, there were a few errors and irregularities, especially to any Regulation Nazi.
I considered most of the information presented to be a review of what I learned as a cadet. I was fairly recently a cadet and I attribute my quick completion of the course to that. I transferred to the darkside three years ago next Monday.
Since becoming a SM, this is the first course I've seen that was on par with what is in the Cadet Program. I hope that CLC, RSC, and NSC are just as well presented and informative. I highly recommend this course and will be encouraging others in my area to register for it. Kudos to the folks who put this together!
Whoa – slow down. I am also in the current OBC and have been taking my time to enjoy it. I could have gone through it in a day or two – but I didn't. One thing time has taught me is no matter how much I think I know, there is always room to learn, which is what this course is about. AlwaysReady- I am a former cadet (C/LTC). At work, I am responsible for 4 sergeants and over 30 officers in life & death situations - poor leadership could get someone killed. I have testified in Federal Court as an independent expert witness. I have been to a graduate-level (which I got credit for, yea) school of supervision and leadership that was four months long. HOWEVER, I still have managed to learn things from the OBC. There is always another perspective, there is always another theory, there is always something that YOU haven't thought of before. The OBC is great – a lot of good material in there. I look forward to the rest of it.
I did not mean to give you all the impression I was just speeding through the course to get it done or that I did not learn anything.
I did learn a lot from this course; just not in the context I was expecting. Was most of it a review for me? Yes, but I did still learn new things.
I did not take this course quickly so that I could check another box on my Form 2 or anything like that. I took it quickly, because that's my learning style.
Unfortunately, I'm mostly a kinesthetic (hands-on) learner. With online courses, or anything taught visually or orally, I only have one effective learning speed: fast. If I don't complete the work all in one shot and quickly, I will have a hard time understanding and retaining the information. The case studies help with connecting it to real world situations, but they usually don't help me pass the test. Yes, it is unusual. However, I would not have been able to have a 4.0 GPA throughout high school and, so far, a 3.5 GPA or higher in college without knowing how I learn best.
My cohort was 1 May. I was able to start yesterday. I am in Block 2. The course is pretty good. It seems to be a combination of every leadership/manager/military PME class I have ever taken. National may have gotten it right this time. Blackboard is a good system. I have used it for USAR applications and found it to be easy to use. So far, only one sub-course/block was subpar. Distance learning will never replace hands-on but it beats "Death by Power Point"
Chief Justice
Completed and passed! :)
Quote from: Chappie on December 08, 2009, 10:38:59 PM
The replacement course for the ADL-13 has finally been announced for release:
http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/officer_basic_course.cfm
I've just finished the course. My technique was to take written notes during the lessons which I sometimes had to refer to during the test.
Some suggestions:
If there's a regulation, publication, law, person, or date in the lesson, it's likely to appear on the test. You'll need to know, for example, the specific regulation number.
Anything quantifiable is likely to be on the test ( eg: how many members on the National Board?)
Anything enumerated is likely. (eg: what kinds of sexual harassment)
Some of the questions are
inane and can only be correctly answered in the context of the lesson.
Example:
What is a common kind of pet?
1. a dog
2. a cat
3. a Komono dragon
4. a goldfish
Answer: d. Because goldfish were discussed more in the lesson!
All, in all, a pretty good course. I didn't have to take it (because I have a former military appointment) but did anyway because I believe I should be able to counsel new members about it. Frankly, the information is so basic that all SM should be required to take it, including Professional and former-military appointments.
There were a few questions that there were actually multiple answers for but you had to choose one. That was really frustrating.
I think I came across about 10 really stupid, what the heck were they thinking questions. All-in-all, an excellent product. I think this course should be requried before promotion to 1st. Lt (or next promotion if special appointment).
I got my certificate as an email pdf attachment. It looks pretty cheesy.
I completed and passed the course yesterday. My completion was delayed because of my school work. Now I am just waiting for it to show up in eServices.