CAP Talk

What is your opinion of the "1st Lt for Life?"

Well, let's first define this person.  As some of you know, one reaches a sort of "road block" at 1st Lt because beyond this is the first promotion that requires a element beyond the unit of local group, the ubiquitous COURSE 13.

So, is there anything to be said for or against a CAP Officer that declines to take that course and remains a 1st Lt for Life?

(NOTE: A bit of a clarification: the bottom two positions are EXAMPLES to demonstrate both sides of the issue based on actual comments I have heard made while in CAP.)
Pros
A 1st Lt for life is pretty much a "unit level" bloke and is likely a solid SQUADRON STAFFER that is a player in the system that makes CAP operate "where the rubber meets the road."  Not a bad thing...eh?

Cons
All CAP Officers should have promotion on their mind/agenda.  Professional Development is the key to CAP, being a 1st Lt longer than five years is a blasphemy, it shows a person is lazy.  Disgraceful!!!

OK, these are both viable points argued in different subjects.  What say you? 

CAP grade is a joke... Both the 1st Lt for life, and the box top fast burner Lt Col are undesirable.

Quote from: MIKE on October 11, 2008, 01:57:01 AM
CAP grade is a joke... Both the 1st Lt for life, and the box top fast burner Lt Col are undesirable.

There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM

Quote from: MIKE on October 11, 2008, 01:57:01 AM
CAP grade is a joke... Both the 1st Lt for life, and the box top fast burner Lt Col are undesirable.

There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

Yeah Mike, that was uncalled for... the Major is quite upset now.  :-*

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM

Quote from: MIKE on October 11, 2008, 01:57:01 AM
CAP grade is a joke... Both the 1st Lt for life, and the box top fast burner Lt Col are undesirable.

There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

You did ask for opinions.  Calling a "1st Lt for life" lazy isn't any better. 

CAP is many things to many people.  I suggest we should be grateful for any useful volunteer time we get from members.  There are plenty of valuable career 1st Lieutenants out there.  I would personally hate to see them go.

Quote from: Lancer on October 11, 2008, 02:10:51 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM

Quote from: MIKE on October 11, 2008, 01:57:01 AM
CAP grade is a joke... Both the 1st Lt for life, and the box top fast burner Lt Col are undesirable.

There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

Yeah Mike, that was uncalled for... the Major is quite upset now.  :-*

That's right!  Now salute and make up!   ;)

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 11, 2008, 02:15:56 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM

Quote from: MIKE on October 11, 2008, 01:57:01 AM
CAP grade is a joke... Both the 1st Lt for life, and the box top fast burner Lt Col are undesirable.

There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

You did ask for opinions.  Calling a "1st Lt for life" lazy isn't any better. 

CAP is many things to many people.  I suggest we should be grateful for any useful volunteer time we get from members.  There are plenty of valuable career 1st Lieutenants out there.  I would personally hate to see them go.

I asked for opinion, not insults.  Had any other of us done that, the post would have been locked since the topic is not about "what CAP grade should/shouldn't be" but rather, what an individual does in Professional Development  What is good for the goose is good for the gander...even if the gander is a moderator.

You will note that the term is in quotation marks, that indicates that this is a term I heard and was passing it on.  It is the prompt for the post.

Secondly, I proposed both sides of the matter to spur a debate.  Thus, neither side is my position.  I know some of you don't fully understand how objectivity works...I mean, really, in our politically charged times where everyone has to have some side or agenda.  You know, where one has to be a Republican or a Democrat (LIBERAL or CONSERVATIVE) where the one side out paces the other in ones mind and the opposing side can never be correct.  I mean, who can possibly be taken seriously for standing back and looking at or presenting two differing sides?  How can it be at a person might actually present both sides of an issue to find a compromise?  

In anycase, I agree, I would hate to see these people go.  As I stated above, there is a middle ground to be explored on this issue.  In that area, truly the heart and soul of CAP, lies the answer.  

Quote from: Lancer on October 11, 2008, 02:10:51 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM

Quote from: MIKE on October 11, 2008, 01:57:01 AM
CAP grade is a joke... Both the 1st Lt for life, and the box top fast burner Lt Col are undesirable.

There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

Yeah Mike, that was uncalled for... the Major is quite upset now.  :-*

Ha! (incredulous...albiet no serious manner) This from a guy that actually has a portal person with a lap top and camera!!! Scandalous!!! ;)

Quote from: shorning on October 11, 2008, 02:23:19 AM

Quote from: Lancer on October 11, 2008, 02:10:51 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM

Quote from: MIKE on October 11, 2008, 01:57:01 AM
CAP grade is a joke... Both the 1st Lt for life, and the box top fast burner Lt Col are undesirable.

There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

Yeah Mike, that was uncalled for... the Major is quite upset now.  :-*

That's right!  Now salute and make up!   ;)

And this from the man who christened me "SPARKY!!!" :D

I'm curious about the term "box top fast burner Lt Col".  I have an idea what it means, but not sure. I'm sorry, kinda dumb here sometimes. I came in as a SM, was supposed to get 2nd Lt after Level 1 because I was a paramedic, but it still took awhile, cause paperwork got "lost" in the black hole we know as wing.  In fact, all of my promotions took longer than necessary because of "lost paperwork".

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM
There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

Why? Because its essentially so true?

Quote from: LtCol057 on October 11, 2008, 02:31:12 AM
I'm curious about the term "box top fast burner Lt Col".  I have an idea what it means, but not sure. I'm sorry, kinda dumb here sometimes. I came in as a SM, was supposed to get 2nd Lt after Level 1 because I was a paramedic, but it still took awhile, cause paperwork got "lost" in the black hole we know as wing.  In fact, all of my promotions took longer than necessary because of "lost paperwork".

Don't worry, that is not a usually used phrase in CAP.  I likely refers to a person who promotes uber quickly in the CAP by whizzing through (or on :D) their professional development in a manner that sees them rise.  Some might say, too quickly.

This is in reference to the 1950s-90s practice of sending in boxtops to collect a prize from a cereal ad campaign.  Some might buy the boxes for an intent other that the intended one, to eat cereal.  In some cases, where people dislike the cereal.  In this case, the "Box Tops" are CAP promotion criteria, the "cereal" being neglected is actual service to CAP and the "prize" is being called "Col CAPMAN."  I should point out that normally the prize sent away for is usually disappointing.  I would extend that to this metaphor.

Being promoted rapidly with no substance via service may prove to be rather disappointing.  For some, the road is more interesting that the destination, for others the road was ignored and the desintation was a tourist trap!!!

Quote from: NIN on October 11, 2008, 02:34:17 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM
There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

Why? Because its essentially so true?

No, because it distracted from the intent of the post.  This topic was derailed by the fellow that is supposed to be preventing that.

In anycase, CAP grade has its place.  It is supposed to reflect your training in CAP.

I'm not going to go there with you Lt Col, Sir.  Because CAP grade will never have any meaning if such comments are continually made by CAP Officers and no action is ever taken to "beef up" what it means.

Quote from: LtCol057 on October 11, 2008, 02:31:12 AM
I'm curious about the term "box top fast burner Lt Col".  I have an idea what it means, but not sure. I'm sorry, kinda dumb here sometimes.

Anybody can be a Lt Col if they send their box tops in (fulfill promotion requirements).  Fast burner implies that grade was earned with the minimum (or less) time in grade to earn each promotion.

I'm a 1st Lt for Life and I'm not a "unit level bloke."  I'm just stuck there because apparently PAWG hasn't figured out how to get AFIADL tests to people.  Maybe they're looking for "ECI" on the envelopes instead?

Major Carrales,

Why is a senior member sitting on a rank forever...any sort of a problem?

If you have a member of your squadron who needs professional development...you as the PD officer, Deputy Commander for Seniors or the Commander encourages him to get the training he needs.

If the guy is doing his job compentantly and happily...why do anything?

Running a squadron is hard enough without having to make up "up or out" rules.

Is a strong proactive PD getting SM a good thing?  Sure is...but so is that 1st Lt for life who just loves to push that paperwork around, run his ground team, mann teh adrio, drive the cadets, and a thousand other very valuable jobs.

I NEVER EVER, EVER, EVER, accuse a VOLUNTEER of being LAZY just to fill some stupid boxes and "earn" a useless promotion.

Quote from: JC004 on October 11, 2008, 02:47:39 AM
I'm a 1st Lt for Life and I'm not a "unit level bloke."  I'm just stuck there because apparently PAWG hasn't figured out how to get AFIADL tests to people.  Maybe they're looking for "ECI" on the envelopes instead?

Ironically, I don't think badly of "unit go getters" that stay at that level and work for the unit.  I think, dare I bring it up, this might be what CAP NCOs should be.

Back to the topic...

I've seen it both ways and heard many arguments about it. I think Capt is a better holding point than 1st Lt, although 1st Lt for life is far better than 2d Lt for life, since the 1st Lt has at least obtained some level of skill training. Capt shows the member has some knowledge of CAP and how to work in the system (excluding insta-Capt's). Also, to many non-CAP, non-military types, either flavor of Lt is still in training and hasn't proven themselves as a leader yet.

If a 1st Lt for life is actively contributing to the unit, great. I have no problem with that. I do understand that not everyone can get weekends off to do SLS. I do not really think AFIADL 13 should be a stumbling block, since the course is fairly easy and study guides (unofficial)are readily available.

I greatly value your input, thus I will correct the misunderstanding I detect in your post.  Poitn by point...with some input of my own.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 11, 2008, 02:48:29 AM
Major Carrales,

Why is a senior member sitting on a rank forever...any sort of a problem?
If you have a member of your squadron who needs professional development...you as the PD officer, Deputy Commander for Seniors or the Commander encourages him to get the training he needs.

I don't think this is a PDO issue as it is a unit member's choice.  The people of which I speak are not denied Professional Development, they simply do not want to do it or see no use for it as seen from the prespective of what they want to do.

As a teacher in a public school I often "open doors" that students chose not to enter.  Thus, there are CAP officers that remain at 1st Lt or Captain because they feel that what they are doing (squadron logistics officer, Cadet person, local COMMO) is where their focus is, not attending SLS or CLC or RSC.

QuoteIf the guy is doing his job compentantly and happily...why do anything?

Agreed, that is my point.  I have heard comments about these people ranging all over the gamut from your comment to the comment I made in the Cons section of my original post.

QuoteRunning a squadron is hard enough without having to make up "up or out" rules.

Is a strong proactive PD getting SM a good thing?  Sure is...but so is that 1st Lt for life who just loves to push that paperwork around, run his ground team, mann teh adrio, drive the cadets, and a thousand other very valuable jobs.

Again we agree.  

QuoteI NEVER EVER, EVER, EVER, accuse a VOLUNTEER of being LAZY just to fill some stupid boxes and "earn" a useless promotion.

Agreed, maybe that is what I was hoping someone would say.  I have heard people get grilled for not getting promoted, sometimes to the point of bullying.  Some time just jokes about "1st Lt for Life" that are demeaning.

I think we are making a breakthrough on this thread.

Quote from: arajca on October 11, 2008, 02:54:00 AM
Back to the topic...

I've seen it both ways and heard many arguments about it. I think Capt is a better holding point than 1st Lt, although 1st Lt for life is far better than 2d Lt for life, since the 1st Lt has at least obtained some level of skill training. Capt shows the member has some knowledge of CAP and how to work in the system (excluding insta-Capt's). Also, to many non-CAP, non-military types, either flavor of Lt is still in training and hasn't proven themselves as a leader yet.

If a 1st Lt for life is actively contributing to the unit, great. I have no problem with that. I do understand that not everyone can get weekends off to do SLS. I do not really think AFIADL 13 should be a stumbling block, since the course is fairly easy and study guides (unofficial)are readily available.

Well spoken, Sir. 

As I pointed out before, CAP grade is designed to show some sort of progress (or status thereof) in the Professional Development program.  Thus, when you see a Major with wings, its a pilot who can be sought out for aviation expertise...or a Lt Col with ribbons that show this person knows CAP, its policies and its missions.

I also see the the 1st Lt that works for the squadron, steers clear of CAP politics and is a functional officer in the Squadron as the foundation of CAP.  A person committed to the service of the UNIT than to personal messages.

[Wow, 17 posts since I started this before dinner. Gonna post anyway.]

Jeez, Sparky, lighten up! First the diamonds thread, now this one.

I spent 14 years as a Captain, and was perfectly comfortable with it. I'm only a Major now because I got tired of my CC nagging at me every week. Major does lend itself to doing better humourous things, too, but that's another story.

I can do what I do for my unit, group, and wing, regardless of my rank/grade. What matters are my skills and knowledge, and my ability to use them for CAP's missions. There isn't a single job that I do in CAP that has a rank prerequisite. None.

Being a Major might help validate certain aspects of interaction with the higher-ups, but it's not essential. The 30 on my Red Service Ribbon does just as well, IMHO.

YMMV.

Yeah when I looked at the 13 in 2007 and saw the quality of it and then read that Al Gore is Vice President, I knew I was going to have trouble with it...  So I threw that piece of crap out.

Give me a test that looks like you don't care about it and has not been updated in 8 years...

well....  I don't care about it either...

Count me as a 1 LT for life....

I'll add to this also.. CAP is a volunteer 'job', I don't get paid.. rank means nothing in the grand scheme of things for me.  My 'real' job is in the defense industry designing things that will either kill the enemy or protect our boys and girls in uniform.  That's where MY rank really counts.

What I do as CAP aircrew is what counts and the rank means squat.  I am an observer, I do the photography and I do CD.  LT.. Lt Col... means nothing in that case either.  I am not going to spend more of my money to take tests, go places to attend school on my dime for something that does not really mean much in the grand scheme of things.

I can save lives, find people, do CD as well with my LT rank as I could as a Col.  As a matter of fact I am probably able to do it better as an LT because of the BS that comes along with rank.

I'm probably gonna po some people, and if I do, I apologize in advance.  If you're a "1LT for life", but you're doing a job in the unit, I commend you. That's your decision not to go any further in the Professional Dev.  But I have a problem when you stagnate in a grade if you're around the cadets. We try to motivate them to be promoted, to advance in the program. For example, I have a 1LT in my unit that was a Mitchell cadet. Since he's been a 1LT, he has done absolutely nothing. He was testing officer, until we relieved him because he wasn't doing the job. He was leaving the tests unsecured, never did a test inventory, he'd grumble and gripe everytime he had to grade a test.  We've ordered the (ECI 13) whatever it's called now,  twice for him. He won't take it. He doesn't have a job in the squadron. The ones he has had, he didn't do jack.  All he does is come to an occasional meeting and gripe. I really don't want him around my cadets. I think he's a bad example. I'm really thinking about telling him next time he comes to a cadet meeting, that either he gets off his tail, takes a job, and does the 13 or I don't want him around my cadets. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 02:40:25 AM
I'm not going to go there with you Lt Col, Sir.  Because CAP grade will never have any meaning if such comments are continually made by CAP Officers and no action is ever taken to "beef up" what it means.

Beef up?

Please explain to me how you can "beef up" grade in CAP.

Until grade is tied to billet in some meaningful way (ie. you don't have a LtCol as the Personnel Officer working for the 1Lt Squadron Commander), grade is exactly as you suggest: A measure of training.  Hell, I have a chest full of ribbons that show how well trained I am, most of which I had to earn to gain my grade anyway, so why exactly do I need an oak leaf to denote training?

I see a two fold problem here:

Problem 1)  CAP is way, way too grade-conscious.  If I had a dollar for every dork I saw run out and drop $75 on a hat with farts and darts the second he made Major, I'd have enough to take you and me to a nice lunch.   Honestly? I did my best work as a captain. I stayed at Captain for 5 years, Major for, uh, let me think, 5 years as well.   I'm in another cadet program. I'm a captain. I get stuff done.  I don't need an oak leaf to get things done.  I've been a captain over there for over 2 years, and you know what?  Some SOB tries to promote me to Major he's gonna have a hell of a fight on his hands. :) 

But seriously,  I wonder how many CAP seniors we'd lose if we said "Hey, uh, yeah, we're gonna grade-level CAP by billet... If you're a LtCol sitting in a squadron assistant testing officer job, you're gonna be a 2Lt as of 1 Oct.." 

Problem 2) There is no consequence for non-performance at your grade level.  Yeah, yeah, cry me a river about doing performance evals on volunteers.  But I had a member who made Major under the previous commander, and honestly, the gentleman was incapable of tying his shoes without retraining 2 times a day.  He was the comm officer. Our comm program was non-existent.  He was the finance officer when I took over the squadron. I don't think he ever met two numbers that were meant to be added together in a coherent fashion, and he brought me the (late) finance paperwork in a plastic shopping bag.. Yeah...

My point is: If you're a LtCol, there needs to be some responsibility level asssociated with your grade, or you don't get to hang on to it.   In the real AF, you don't make LtCol and call AFPERCEN up and say "Uh, high, yeah, I wanna polish the seat of my trousers here in this cubicle at Bufftuck AFB doing TPS reports."  No, sorry, bucko, you're probably gonna be a squadron commander, etc.  Not capable?  The AF will ensure that you're shown the door, I hope.

All grade in CAP proves is that you can outlast the poor dumb SOB to your left or right in some of the most mind-numbing professional development exercises ever created.    Repeatedly.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:33:01 AM
What is your opinion of the "1st Lt for Life?"

Back to the original question. I have no problem with it. Like many wings we have a number of lieutenants and captains who have been around for a very long time. Sure, it'd be great if they'd promote and set the example but we have to allow for the fact that many members can't or won't - and that's fine. We can only hope and ask that they do their best in contributing to the success of the program. The point made by NIN is a valid one and something to consider. I have my opinions about comments like "CAP grade is a joke" and the "box top fast burner Lt Col's" but that wasn't the question.

I don't have any problems with someone who has worked to a certain point in the CAP PD system and then decides to stop at that level. 

By bigger problem is the people who bypass the PD system entirely through special and professional appointments and then never do another thing.   

Like medal of honors and a whole bunch of stars on their shoulders?

Well, my post maybe null and void when the new CAPSOC on-line course is up and running, but the AFIADL 13 is a course very hard to take seriously.  It is sooooo out of date, had so may errors, that as I read it I found myself continuously thinking, "I am suppose to take CAP professional development seriously?  CAP can't update a required course in 8 years??"  I still took it, passed the test, and completed level II. 

If CAP wants more senior members to progress through the PD levels then CAP must do a better job of assuring that the PD tasks are up-to-date and the learning is useful!  Now, to the 1st Lt. for life question...if the individual is performing in a position well, is feeling satisfied with his/her involvement, then I have no problem with it.

CAP is a unique 'quasi-military' organization: rank is not competitive, nor does it guarantee a leadership position.

Strangley enough, someone did a study a couple of years back, and found that the distribution of rank in CAP was not that far off from USAF.  What makes CAP seem skewed or top-heavy is that higher ranking members are the more active ones.

If someone makes 1st Lt or Capt, and there he or she stays, then so be it: its their membership.

HOWEVER, how can they push cadets (and others) to progress in the program when they don't lead by example?

Sure, CAP oak leaves and 5 bucks will get you a cup of coffee, but if anything, it demonstrates that you cared enough to learn the program, and no one can take that from you.

In the process of getting our Garber or Wilson, some of us completed ACSC and even AWC: and in CAP or out, that's an accomplishment in itself in any venue.

Even if not for the rank, take advantage of the professional education opportunites in CAP, and add value to yourself, both as a CAP member, and personally.

O-Rex,

I understand your position about leading by example....how ever you can't compare cadet progression with SM progression.

Take your ideal cadet and your ideal SM.

The both join the same day. 

in 18 months the cadet is a 2d Lt (10 promotions) While your SM is just putting on 1st Lt (2 promotions).

By the time the cadet is putting on the super cadet is putting on his Spaatz 32 months after joining (he is a super cadet!) The Senior member is still a 1st Lt waiting for his 3 years TIG to run out.

So.....my point is....it is perfectly normal for cadets to see Senior Members not progressing.  We just don't progress at the same rate as they do.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 02:40:25 AM
In anycase, CAP grade has its place.  It is supposed to reflect your training in CAP.

Totally untrue. 

Our version of "Stripes for Skills", means that a member with less than 30 days in CAP can be a Capt because they hold an IGI and passed Level 1 and OPSEC.

I have a friend joining who is an Army COL, he will be a CAP Lt Col before he has a month in the program.  His military skills as an FA officer will do him no good as our AEO.

Sparky ...

You've brought up a pretty good point here, which seems to be drifting into territories that maybe it shouldn't.  But, fortunately, the good people of CAPTalk bring it back into line.  And that's because there are valid arguments on both sides of the issue.

I don't want to weigh in on one side or the other here, though, because I was one of those "fast-track box top Lt Cols" Mike referred to here.  But in my case it had nothing whatsoever to do with earning grade; it was all about the education.  I did each course as quickly as I possibly could, because I wanted to learn new things that would help me do my job better.  My CCs along the way put forward the promotion paperwork as soon as I was eligible -- up through major, anyway.  At that grade I became the unit CC.  So after earning my Wilson, my Group CC put in my promotion to lieutenant colonel.  And I had it exactly nine years after I received my butter bars.  Heck, my rank didn't last long enough on my shoulder to get tarnished!!

I still have my framed SOS and ACSC certificates on the wall of my office at home.  I wanted to enroll in AWC but chose to retire from CAP instead -- if I ever do come back in, which I yet may, then I'll enroll as soon as my grade is reinstated.  

But I have to say again with emphasis -- my "rapid advancement" had little or nothing to do with the rank that went with it.  I was in CAP for the marvelous educational opportunities that existed.  And even when I'd gone as far as I could go without becoming a corporate officer, I was still looking for the classes or courses that would expand my horizons.

And Nin ... to give you an idea how long ago it was ... you had to wait until you made Lt Col to get your farts and darts hat -- and they were only $45 at MCSS.

Jack

Quote from: Trung Si Ma on October 11, 2008, 03:32:29 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 02:40:25 AM
In anycase, CAP grade has its place.  It is supposed to reflect your training in CAP.

Totally untrue. 

Our version of "Stripes for Skills", means that a member with less than 30 days in CAP can be a Capt because they hold an IGI and passed Level 1 and OPSEC.

I have a friend joining who is an Army COL, he will be a CAP Lt Col before he has a month in the program.  His military skills as an FA officer will do him no good as our AEO.

Here is where people misunderstand.  The point of professional appointments and grade for pilots et al is to reflect training that they did not achieve in CAP.  You are "bumped up" for these things for having knowledge and skills you bring to CAP.  Thus, the accounant that serves as a finance officer who was trained and and a degree in Accounting is actually very well trained for their job.  The CFI that joins and become a Captain is quite well trained, I think everyone would agree.  The Spaatz cadet also has a great deal of training...heck, they baically completed what amounts to "CAP ROTC."

One could also say the same for prior military.  They bring in skill sets that, if used, justify the promotion.

What adds "boogers to the oatmeal" is when one of these joins and does not follow their skill set.  In our Group, ur group commander will not approve a "special promotion" if that CAP Officer has not taken a related staff position.  Thus, the CFI does not get to be a Captain unless he/she is not taking some role in the aviation program as a maintenance officer, assist stan/eval, ops officer or the like.

These people sometimes "stagnate," however, it is mostly because they are backfilling.

Quote from: NIN on October 11, 2008, 05:28:39 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 02:40:25 AM
I'm not going to go there with you Lt Col, Sir.  Because CAP grade will never have any meaning if such comments are continually made by CAP Officers and no action is ever taken to "beef up" what it means.

Beef up?

Please explain to me how you can "beef up" grade in CAP.

I am surprised at you NIN, "beef up" means to add substance, rigor and relevance to something.  I wouldn't go so far as to tie it to a billet, however, placing elements that make it more meaningful might not be a bad idea.  I'm not advocating "USAFR lite" like Dennis Nall sometimes tries to push for, but something that reflected more rigor and relevance.

I really have no problem with the concept of "1st Lt for Life," so long as the job is getting done.  Maybe the Squadron level could be redesigned to reflect some of your points.

I think the primary question is whether a member contributes to our mission.  If someone is proficient in their chosen specialty I don't care what grade insignia, if any, is on their uniform.  Their skills may be gained within CAP or elsewhere.  They don't have to be "homegrown" in a way that earns CAP grade to be valuable to the mission.  

My squadron has several members who are also members of the local sheriff's SAR team.  They bring a lot of experience and professionalism to the table. I would never dream of minimizing their contributions because they are "only" 1st Lieutenants, or because they didn't earn their chops "the CAP way."  The situation is similar for plenty of other specialties, comm, finance, etc.  If they never "promote" it doesn't affect their performance in the least.

Perception is the other side of the coin.  Are some outsiders confused by our use of grade?  Of course.  Do they assume our Lieutenants are still wearing training wheels?  Possibly.  

This may sound like thread drift, but the issues are intertwined.  I think we would be better served by finding another way of recognizing accomplishments, at least on the senior member side of the house.  (Cadets ARE motivated by promotions.)  If we just gotta have grade, invent a different system that doesn't have the rest of the world scratching their heads when they work with us.  Sure, that's just the way it is, but it doesn't have to be.

Like re-chow, 1st Lt is so much better the second time around.

Trung Si Ma: I have to politely disagree with your comment about your FA friend Colonel.  He has many military skills beyond being an Artillery Officer that are perfectly appropriate for CAP.  He has demonstrated leadership skills, organizatonal skills, levels of military education far beyond anything in CAP, probably spent a tour as a service school instructor, has expertise in logistics and transportation, etc.

I was a Military Intelligence Officer for most of my career.  I have seldom used my MI skills in CAP, except when I performed as a mission intel officer, but my other skills certainly have come in handy on many occasions.  I was a service school instructor(prefix 5), a commander several times, held Pentagon level staff positions,was the G2 Air of a Field Army, ran two motor pools, graduated from the Officer Basic and Advanced Courses, Army Command and General Staff College, the Air War College, the Special Warfare School, the Air Ground Operations School, have a Masters Degree, etc.  Lots of those skills are relevant to CAP, if and when used.

One of my pet peeves is getting non-military experienced officers in CAP to recognize the skills that former RM officers and NCOs bring to the fray and to use those skills and that experience.  Don't know exactly why, but some folks are really reluctant to use the ex-mil skills to their best advantage.

QuoteOne of my pet peeves is getting non-military experienced officers in CAP to recognize the skills that former RM officers and NCOs bring to the fray and to use those skills and that experience. 

Which is more than balanced out by the fact that CAP doesn't recognize the skill sets of civilians unless they are some sort of "professional". 

For example, a woman who started what is now a multi-million dollar a year busin
ess with hundreds of employees has to start at the bottom while a person who may have been a Lieutenant in the submarine service 40 years ago, but who has been working as a farmer since then, jumps right to Captain. 

Quote from: lordmonar on October 11, 2008, 03:13:47 PM
O-Rex,

I understand your position about leading by example....how ever you can't compare cadet progression with SM progression.

Take your ideal cadet and your ideal SM.

The both join the same day. 

in 18 months the cadet is a 2d Lt (10 promotions) While your SM is just putting on 1st Lt (2 promotions).

By the time the cadet is putting on the super cadet is putting on his Spaatz 32 months after joining (he is a super cadet!) The Senior member is still a 1st Lt waiting for his 3 years TIG to run out.

So.....my point is....it is perfectly normal for cadets to see Senior Members not progressing.  We just don't progress at the same rate as they do.

Point taken, it's a 'given' that it takes seniors longer to get promoted (as it should be) but when you have a senior member who has been a First Lieutenant longer than the cadet has been alive, that's another thing entirely, and we DO have some of those.

My vision of a senior setting the example is progressing through the program at a steady pace; maybe not fast-tracking, but progressing nonetheless.

I really don't think that cadets really care whether or not a senior member advances in rank.  Now, they sure as heck will notice if they are not setting a good example as far as uniforms, customs and courtesies, and general CAP activity. 

I have been a 1Lt since 1998. :clap:

You're a living homage to those Army soldiers who spent 20 years in one rank back in the 1800s when promotions depended on when your superior officer died of heart disease...

Quote from: RiverAux on October 11, 2008, 09:33:15 PM
I really don't think that cadets really care whether or not a senior member advances in rank.  Now, they sure as heck will notice if they are not setting a good example as far as uniforms, customs and courtesies, and general CAP activity. 

Someone diligent enough to keep a squared-away uniform and practice proper customs & courtesies will make some effort to progress through the program.

Remember that CAP rank is not a measure of authority, but of accomplishments in pursuing the senior program though education and participation: the two very things we expect from cadets.

Quote from: NIN on October 11, 2008, 02:34:17 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:59:51 AM
There was no need for the "CAP grade is a joke" comment whatsoever. >:(

Why? Because its essentially so true?

CAP "rank" is not a joke, our treatment of that rank is a joke.

I am a firm believe that the "take any volunteer" mentality is the wrong one. I prefer quality over quantity.

Quote
I am a firm believe that the "take any volunteer" mentality is the wrong one. I prefer quality over quantity.

Thus with the new ICS requirements I think you are going to see an exodus of many members.

If a CAP member can't take a few hours to whip out those internet ICS courses, I don't think we want them around anyway.  The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

Quote from: RiverAux on October 11, 2008, 09:40:59 PM
You're a living homage to those Army soldiers who spent 20 years in one rank back in the 1800s when promotions depended on when your superior officer died of heart disease...

When I was in the National Guard, the joke was that you didn't have to wait for someone to retire to get a new slot.. You had to wait for someone to retire, and then die, to get that slot..

Quote from: LittleIronPilot on October 12, 2008, 03:11:12 PM
CAP "rank" is not a joke, our treatment of that rank is a joke.

I am a firm believe that the "take any volunteer" mentality is the wrong one. I prefer quality over quantity.

No disagreement.

Years ago, there was a Bob Stevens cartoon in the back of Air Force magazine that talked about the pilot shortage at the beginning of WWII and how they'd "take anybody." It depicted a team of doctors around a potential pilot cadet candidate, and each is poking/prodding and asking questions.  One Dr. says to the nurse "Put down 'breathing'." while the other doctor is asking the examinee "What color is that red number on the wall?"

Please demonstrate how you will be a benefit to my organization before I'm going to take the time and effort training you.  My unit uses a membership board to ensure that we have qualified and eager members who actually sign on the dotted line and will be there contributing in a year.

I think grade in CAP serves it's purpose that is often mitigated by the very people who earn it.

Quote from: ColonelJack on October 11, 2008, 03:34:21 PM
And Nin ... to give you an idea how long ago it was ... you had to wait until you made Lt Col to get your farts and darts hat -- and they were only $45 at MCSS.

Jack

I only paid 40 for mine and have only worn it once.

;D

Quote from: Flying Pig on October 11, 2008, 09:35:16 PM
I have been a 1Lt since 1998. :clap:

I've been a LtCol since 1990. I win!!

Quote from: RiverAux on October 12, 2008, 09:34:53 PM
The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

They should be no more offended than a licensed professional, i.e., Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, CPA, etc., meeting the 'continuing education' requirements to keep their jobs, or soldiers and marines re-qualifying with their weapons and common tasks annually.  Or better yet, a pilot becoming offended because he has to take a check-ride.

Really, some folks need to get over themselves.

Longest time in rank i know of at this time.

Col Ben Stone of GAWG HQ.

Made Lt. Col. in 1954 and was promoted to Colonel in 2007

53 Years as a Lt. Colonel and there is none beter than this man!

There are a few motivations to move to a higher grade, but from what I've read so far, the primary reason is for the sake of appearance...to mitigate what others will think of you.  I'm not being sarcastic, rather I am a member for slightly over a year and I am genuinely curious.  It doesn't make much difference from what I've seen so far.

I know you have to be a Colonel to be a wing king, at least a First Lieutenant for squadron commander, etc.  If you aren't on track to be a wing king, how does grade REALLY affect your CAP career?  What is it really good for, especially if you have professional and leadership experience earned outside CAP?

Quote from: RiverAux on October 12, 2008, 09:34:53 PM
If a CAP member can't take a few hours to whip out those internet ICS courses, I don't think we want them around anyway.  The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

Thank you! People taking a couple of online courses and a test is NOT HARD.

Anyone that tells me they have neither the time or inclination to do them ICS classes also tell me they have no interest in actually be a professional CAP/SAR team member.

I believe in ongong and continous professional development. Most professional careers have some form of CEU (continuing education unit) requirements to them. When you work through any professional development course either part of CAP or not than you are improving yourself (hopefully) as an Individual which in turn should improve your professional knowledge or skill. I do not do professional development as a way to get more rank (which has no real authority) I do it because I am dedicated to the line of work I have chosen.

Advancement in rank is a benefit of completing professional development courses and not the other way around. You can have a 1st Lt PIC and a Lt. Col in the same plane and the 1st Lt is still the PIC. I enjoy the opportunities to network with fellow CAP members thorugh professional development courses such as SLS/CLC/RSC/NSC. I dont have any personal angst with those who choose not to promote through the ranks unless they are part of a Cadet program.

As stated in the past I believe that if you work for it and earn it than you deserve to wear it, that goes for rank or any awards!

MSgt since 1989, so there!
{currently working on ECI 13}

Quote from: caphistorian on October 13, 2008, 11:44:08 AM
Longest time in rank i know of at this time.

Col Ben Stone of GAWG HQ.

Made Lt. Col. in 1954 and was promoted to Colonel in 2007

53 Years as a Lt. Colonel and there is none beter than this man!

Amen to that, Major Shaw!!  Ben Stone was an inspiration to me when I was active in CAP ... I enjoyed many GAWG conferences just sitting with others listening to the man talk.  The single finest person I'd ever met in the organization, and I knew some good people.

I was so pleased to see Col. Stone get his eagles!  They should've done that for him a long time ago.

Jack

  As my humble contribution (opinion):

  I have been a Captain for many years, and have had a great time and gotten alot done.  I feel I have just enough rank to have earned some 'respect' from others (I'm talking mostly first impressions),  yet able to stay  'under the radar' (meaning, clear of Wing politics!) for the most part.  I have earned promotion to Major, and will really enjoy doing those jobs that come with it, but I will probably not become LtCol for a long, long time because of everything involved.  I still believe I get more done flying under the radar.  I have known several people who remain in the grade of 1s tLt just because it is what they enjoy doing.  I have no problem with that. 

Quote from: Sleepwalker on October 13, 2008, 04:41:23 PM
I have earned promotion to Major, and will really enjoy doing those jobs that come with it, but I will probably not become LtCol for a long, long time because of everything involved. 

What jobs are restricted to those of a Major or higher (Wing CC not included) ?

Quote from: O-Rex on October 13, 2008, 11:38:51 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on October 12, 2008, 09:34:53 PM
The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

They should be no more offended than a licensed professional, i.e., Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, CPA, etc., meeting the 'continuing education' requirements to keep their jobs, or soldiers and marines re-qualifying with their weapons and common tasks annually.  Or better yet, a pilot becoming offended because he has to take a check-ride.

Actually, it is a little like telling that Doctor that he needs to go back to school to take a few new courses.  Experience has shown that people will drop out because of these requirements, even the easy online courses.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing them, but anytime you increase requirements you will lose people not willing to "pay the price" and that we are going to lose some good mission staff people over 300/400 requirement. 

Same goes for any increased requirements relating to promotion. 

Well....such is life....nothing we can do about it.

We either meet NIMS requirements and take the hit on our volunteers or we ignore the NIMS requirement and take the chance that we don't get used for missions.

Seeing as how we should all be in CAP to accomplish the mission....I know which way I would vote.

Quote from: RiverAux on October 13, 2008, 09:57:04 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on October 13, 2008, 11:38:51 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on October 12, 2008, 09:34:53 PM
The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

They should be no more offended than a licensed professional, i.e., Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, CPA, etc., meeting the 'continuing education' requirements to keep their jobs, or soldiers and marines re-qualifying with their weapons and common tasks annually.  Or better yet, a pilot becoming offended because he has to take a check-ride.

Actually, it is a little like telling that Doctor that he needs to go back to school to take a few new courses.  Experience has shown that people will drop out because of these requirements, even the easy online courses.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing them, but anytime you increase requirements you will lose people not willing to "pay the price" and that we are going to lose some good mission staff people over 300/400 requirement. 

Same goes for any increased requirements relating to promotion. 

If a medical standard changes, doctors DO take classes to maintain currency. It's part of their requirements. It is no different than when the training requirements firefighters had to meet when the haz mat regs came out. They had to take the training or leave. Most took the training. Including volunteers.

Quote from: jkalemis on October 13, 2008, 06:01:22 PM

Quote from: Sleepwalker on October 13, 2008, 04:41:23 PM
I have earned promotion to Major, and will really enjoy doing those jobs that come with it, but I will probably not become LtCol for a long, long time because of everything involved. 

What jobs are restricted to those of a Major or higher (Wing CC not included) ?

jkalemis:  The only requirements I am aware of is that of Group Commander, which is probably my next job.    :)   

Personally, I think it's all a matter of personal choice.  Everyone serves in their own way, to their own limits.  The 1st Lt for life may be one of the biggest contributors to the ES mission in the squadron.

I personally choose to pursue the PD program for the following reasons:
1.  I figure the extra training will make me better able to contribute to CAP.
2.  As the squadron's PD Officer, I figure I shouldn't be encouraging others to pursue the program if i don't do it myself.  You know, lead by example.
3.  Okay, I admit it, I like the little ribbons. :D

There are two side to this issue.

One side....as officers and leaders we should be activly looking for way to imporove ourselves so we can more effectivly perform our duties and get the mission done.

Flip Side....as volunteers (and I know some of you hate this word) there are limits to our time/ability/money/commitment that we are willing to pay in the service of CAP.

As leaders of CAP officers we need to encourage and facilitate our members to learn more and become better leaders. 

But beyond that what are we going to do?

We only have a few carrots and fewer sticks in our leadership tool bags.  And we ourselves have limited time and resources that we have to spend in a lot of areas.

So Lt Sitonadime likes being a Lt....does not think he has the time to do his ECI 13 or SLS.
Is he a "bad" officer?  Not necessarily. 

Do I kick him out if he does not progress?  Only If I were stupid.

Bottom line...IF and officer is lacking in skills and needs to progress....then as a commander I would step in and make it happen or place the officer in to duties more suited to his talent.

But if he is not a problem...and he is happy and does not want to progress I will use him to the best of my abilities.

I think part of the issue is that, frankly rank means nothing.

Many folks work hard to improve themselves in CAP.  They go to classes, come out for exercises, talk with the Wing counterparts.

But they (correctly) see that rank is CAP is optional, and has no effect on their ability to operate.

Some are even a little embarrassed to be "pretend officers."

And we invented a uniform (golf shirt) just for these guys!

And truthfully, even our PD doesn't neccesarily make you a better performer.  Some of the best Wing staffers I've worked with only had Level II or III.  Lack of a GRW in no way decreased their effectiveness.

I wish CAP used grade in a meaningful way, and have a more military culture.  But it doesn't.

When I grow up and become a "REAL" CAP Officer...my goal is to be a 1st Lt as long as I can be. Worst case scenario - Capt. I'm not interested in command at this point or professional development past what I need to know to do my job. I'm a full time college student so CAPSOC (whatever it's now called, used to be ECI 13) is another annoying test that I don't want to do. It's not holding me back in my CAP career not having it done at this point. In the year and a half that I've been a SM, I've always been at college or in transit to college whenever my old squadron had SLS (Which makes total sense to schedule SLS when all the college students are away and not around ??? ::)). Now, that my schedule has settled down/I've moved, I may go to SLS. I currently don't NEED to, nor do I have to. I plan on having my CC signing my CAPF 2 for me to get promoted to TFO (Edit-at the end of this week). Then I still have two years to get CAPSOC and SLS done. If it gets done, it gets done. If not, I'll be a "REAL" CAP Officer at that point so who cares...I'm still progressing in CAP (FO-TFO-1st Lt) and in my specialty rating(s), so what harm will it do?

The problem with our rank is that is completely an internal recognition system, that only we understand, with no outside authority given to it whatsoever.  And without some serious CAP overhaul at the congressional level, thats all it will ever be.  It like coming to work and being completely happy being the guy in the mail room.  Someday I will promote, but frankly dont have the time, and with all of the other studying, sitting down and taking ECI 13 is pretty far down on my list.   And the reason its not a high priority, is that my rank has never prevented me from doing or offering anything to CAP. I am a Sq. Commander, Mission/CD Pilot, prior Deputy Commander for Cadets, Leadership Officer.  And managed to do it all as a 1Lt.   Ive been in CAP 15 years, and have never been asked to leave the room because a meeting was only for Majors and above, or Level 4 grads.

I look forward to SLS, CLC, UCC, I enjoy wearing the uniform and excelling and talking with other members.  But maybe when CAP decides to make PD worthwhile beyond what I am already volunteering to do with my time, more people will jump on board.  Honestly, that ECI 13 (or whatever the name is) is a joke.  Along with the ES Officer test booklet talking about Capt. Johnston going on an unauthorized SAR.  Good Grief...that thing was so lame I half expected a box of crayons to come in the packet with the book!

We can all make a decision (speaking as adults here) make our own decisions as to the grade/rank to which we aspire. Some of our best and brightest are just fine at Lt. and Capt. People who give themselves to ES fully and forever, for instance.

Upgrading inside ES to the extent they become the finest pilots, observer, even IC -- is no small aspiration. I think of this like I do carrier pilots who want to be the point of the spear and when their flying time is up, they don't go to staff at the Pentagon, but quietly retire after doing their 20 years.

To think that their accomplishment in saving lives, risking their own, pivoting on performance in a single mindedness call to a particular and specific duty - To short sell these people is short-sell CAP. For the time being at least, accomplishing this goal, while I am able, is not short sighted what so ever. I split my time between the squadron and wing. I donate to each and serve both with distinction. Before I'm done, I may make Major, but that is not part of my grand plan.

I think of CAP service as 2 different groups. Those who do and those who teach. While I am able I want to do. I offer myself to the doing. Doing the smallest of tasks well. In 10 years or so when I slow down, I'll spend more time teaching. I'm not probably interested in command at any level. I am quite interested in upgrading history, upgrading PA, upgrading ES, upgrading my knowledge through experience and real world service. I don't think this is wrong headed. I don't think I'm slacking. I do think there are two different minded groups inside the cadre. I think both are doing their duty while exhibiting different aspirations.

I was discussing this thread with my group commander the other day and he suggested that we use something like the warrant officer system which every service but USAF/CAP has. Warrant Officers are technicians who concentrate in one specialty and move up in grade through a progression of time not necessarily of PD. Start out as a WO-1 and a few years later with no "oh-ohs" and your a WO-2. This would be perfect for those seniors who want to fly or do comms or concentrate on ground team. This would give those people who want to volunteer but don't have the time or the opportunity to take courses a way to advance and be recognized.

As for the significance of rank in CAP, I think it means less to some people who are professionally accomplished whether in the RM or civilian world. Usually the only people I see really worrying about rank are those that wouldn't have it outside of CAP or who value form over function. Most of the go getters and doers I have been associated withdon't care what rank you are as long as you do the job and don't worry about having your tushy kissed because you are of a certain rank.

Quote from: RiverAux on October 13, 2008, 09:57:04 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on October 13, 2008, 11:38:51 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on October 12, 2008, 09:34:53 PM
The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

They should be no more offended than a licensed professional, i.e., Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, CPA, etc., meeting the 'continuing education' requirements to keep their jobs, or soldiers and marines re-qualifying with their weapons and common tasks annually.  Or better yet, a pilot becoming offended because he has to take a check-ride.

Actually, it is a little like telling that Doctor that he needs to go back to school to take a few new courses.  Experience has shown that people will drop out because of these requirements, even the easy online courses.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing them, but anytime you increase requirements you will lose people not willing to "pay the price" and that we are going to lose some good mission staff people over 300/400 requirement. 

Same goes for any increased requirements relating to promotion. 

We talk about 'officership' in CAP; that concept is based on officership in the military, which by the way, is a somewhat exclusive club, exclusivity based performance with a somewhat rigorous initiation process: with an appox. 25 to 30 percent dropout/washout rate in the officer ascension programs for the services in general, not all who enter will win the prize, so-to-speak.  And even then, promotions are competitive, and along the way some aspiring career officers who are found wanting will be shown the door.  It's how the military 'culls the heard' and promotes those who meet quality and performance criteria.

In CAP, you pay your (monetary) dues, take an on line course and maintain a pulse for six months, and bippity-boppity boo, you're a lieutenant.  So if somewhere along the line, a CAP member decides he or she it not going to play anymore because heaven-forbid we ask them to learn something new, then so be it, I see it as just the normal ebbs and flows and attrition of the organization.   

Remember that the courses we are talking about (ICS 300/400) are not intended for your rank-in-file member, but for those in ES Leadership positions, who will likely interface with their counterparts in other organizations who actually do ES for a living (and who incidentally, had to take those very same courses.)  If a person is too offended to step up and take a couple of weekend courses, they probably don't need to control aircraft, vehicles and people in a concerted effort to save lives.

And yes, even doctors go back to school: attending workshops and seminars that keep them up-to-date on the latest medical breakthroughs and techniques.  Most do so with the same zeal and enthusiasm that they had during their eight years in college, two years in internship, and a couple of more in residency to get where they are.

True professionals never stop 'paying their dues' (and I'm not talking about money.)

We are all volunteers in CAP, but a committed volunteer who takes on responsibility needs to continually improve his or her skill-set in the face of a changing environment and not gripe about it, otherwise we become the quintessential bumbling amateurs that some accuse us of being.

I wasn't making a value judgement --- Just stating the fact that we will lose ES staff people because of it and we should be prepared for that to happen. 

If they're making a valued contribution to CAP.... Who cares???

I've seen no rank SM's be THE Go-To guy at both Unit and Wing level and plenty happy to be an SM.

I've also seen SM's catapault in grade and offer little to the organization other than looking really pretty with their fruit salad of PD and service ribbons on the uniform.

There are days as a Wing staffer I'd like to turn in my grade and be an SM. It makes it easier dealing with pushy field grade officers at times when you're the head of a Directorate only and not a subordinate in grade wing head of a Directorate. I have this bad habit of thinking out loud. >:D

I admittedly didn't read everything here... but here's my two cents and consider it a sign of agreement if I'm repeating someone else.

I have no real aspirations to rise through the grades for two main reasons.  Firstly, I just don't care about grade, I've had advanced leadership and interpersonal skills training that I don't feel the need to repeat to get a new shiny thing on my shoulder. 

And secondly, I am a volunteer who is also a full time student in a rigorous program and I have a part time job.  With my limited time available I have worked hard to develop as an ES officer and ITO officer as well as having gotten my Safety Tech rating as a safety officer.  I am GTM 1,2,3 and GTL, an MS working toward MO, an MSA, and if I ever get the time to take the ICS 300 course I'll go ahead with my GBD qualification (I could have it done now, but I'd just lose it when the new requirements come into effect).

To call me disgraceful is an insult and I have some choice words in private for whoever thinks this of my service.

1. CAP is a VOLUNTEER organization. People volunteer for different reasons and to different extents just like any other volunteer organization. Are we trying to say that if you don't want to volunteer to the same extent that some of us do that you should get out?

2. Rank doesn't matter as much to others as it does to some. Frankly, we put to much emphasis on it.  I guess it is like office politics in colleges and universities.... It gets vicious because the stakes are so small. A Lt. Col. rank and $.75 will but you a $.75 newspaper.

3. Some people in this organization tend to give orders to people as if they are backed up by the UCMJ.  If we are paying somebody a salary and benefits, we might be able to dictate professional development progress or whether someone can date someone else "off duty".  But since we aren't, we can't.

Let's worry about ourselves and our own personal development and quit worrying about people who are perfectly happy doing what they do. As long as they obey the regs and follow the rules of conduct, quit worrying about the ants while the elephants are stomping us to death.

Well, recently I experienced someone who pushed the rank issue to much. Since rank in CAP does not necessarily reflect experience/knowledge/capabilities/resources...etc...and many times it's just handed out...worst is someone who just got a rank and treats you like scum just because of your butter bar. Doesn't matter how much more I know than that person...rank became an issue when it isn't when their a mission or a task to be done.

Again, rank in CAP has its purpose, but as far as how it relates to people and jobs within the org. it's a diferent beast.

Quote from: stratoflyer on November 14, 2008, 08:06:42 AM
Well, recently I experienced someone who pushed the rank issue to much. Since rank in CAP does not necessarily reflect experience/knowledge/capabilities/resources...etc...and many times it's just handed out...worst is someone who just got a rank and treats you like scum just because of your butter bar. Doesn't matter how much more I know than that person...rank became an issue when it isn't when their a mission or a task to be done.

Again, rank in CAP has its purpose, but as far as how it relates to people and jobs within the org. it's a diferent beast.

Again, we're getting rank and grade confused here.

Grade is what you wear on your shoulder. Be it a butter bar, railroad tracks, etc.

Rank is where you fall in the overall scheme, the chain. You might be a Lt Col in a squadron and serve as the Deputy Commander. Your CC may be a 1st Lt. Though you hold a superior grade to the commander, the commander, in fact, outranks you.

Quote from: SJFedor on November 14, 2008, 02:57:32 PM
Rank is where you fall in the overall scheme, the chain. You might be a Lt Col in a squadron and serve as the Deputy Commander. Your CC may be a 1st Lt. Though you hold a superior grade to the commander, the commander, in fact, outranks you.

And that is still not how it is defined by CAP.  Rank is seniority within a given grade.  Of two or more Lt Cols, the one with the earliest date of grade is senior.  It says nothing of "positional authority."

When I went the USAF NCO Academy we had a block of instuction about "authority".

There are several types of authority.

One of those types is "positional" authority.....that is someone has authority based on their position.  This type of authority may be legitmate or illegitmate.  The boss' secratary has illegitmate positional authority because she controls his information flow...while the deputy commander has legitamate positional authority.

Rank and and grade have some but not absolute relationship to authoirty. 

I used to deal with this sort of thing all the time.

What it boils down to is that grade and rank only have bearing on authority because the USAF (a) limits the number of people holding a particular grade, (b) does it best effort to eliminate any grade/authority mis-matches, (c) has clearly defined chains of command that allows for a quick resolution to any conflicts that come up.

So, in CAP position has nothing to do with rank as it is defined in out text....but also rank usually has nothing to do with authority so the they balance out.

Quote from: DogCollar on October 11, 2008, 02:44:08 PM
Well, my post maybe null and void when the new CAPSOC on-line course is up and running, but the AFIADL 13 is a course very hard to take seriously. 

When is this suppose to happen anyway? I heard about at encampment this past summer , and I was told look for it in august. Any idea anyone?

I can not help but laugh at the issue.  My best friend and I joined CAP at the same time he made it to C/LTC and Me to C/1LT (before going active duty) 20 years later I am a Maj (who may never make it to LTC due to politics) and he is a 1LT for life (ECI 13).  We both are Air Crew, GT, Base Staff.  We both have been Deputy commander and on Group staff.  What is the difference in the real world.  In a year when we are both ICs will it matter that he is a 1LT and I am a Major?  When the next command vacancy comes up will it matter which of us fills the need?

V/R
LT J.

If I was the one making the decision about the command slot, yes, it would make a difference.

You are both specializing, which is fine in terms of your personal experience and contribution, but when it comes to Commanders, we need members who are committed to the whole program, including the stuff which isn't as "fun" or objectively rewarding.

I see it all the time - members who like to play where they like to play, but have no time for SLS/CLC/TLC, etc., and then don't understand the totality of the organization, or the issues which sometimes result in the decisions that affect where they like to play.

I would be asking direct questions about why its so hard to take the ECI-13.  If he can't be bothered to set the example, how can he, as a commander, expect others to do so with a straight face?

Quote from: messofficer on November 20, 2008, 10:04:13 AM

Quote from: DogCollar on October 11, 2008, 02:44:08 PM
Well, my post maybe null and void when the new CAPSOC on-line course is up and running, but the AFIADL 13 is a course very hard to take seriously. 

When is this suppose to happen anyway? I heard about at encampment this past summer , and I was told look for it in august. Any idea anyone?

They are still shipping the ECI-13 materials and test as of last month.

I would have some respect with reguards to the command selection issue (and believe me the unpleasant stuff we both shovel with all of our CAP roles is deep) except for the # of LTC types who don't do half of what we do in CAP in any of the 3 missions.  ECI 13 in our area is a running Charlie Foxtrot.  Everyone orders it, studies for it and requests the test.  Then 3 or 4 attempts to get the test later the majority give up.  It gets lost at wing, Lost at Group. Not sure where it gets lost and asking our PD folks at group and wing does not seem to help.

V/R
Lt J.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 02:50:14 AM

Quote from: JC004 on October 11, 2008, 02:47:39 AM
I'm a 1st Lt for Life and I'm not a "unit level bloke."  I'm just stuck there because apparently PAWG hasn't figured out how to get AFIADL tests to people.  Maybe they're looking for "ECI" on the envelopes instead?

Ironically, I don't think badly of "unit go getters" that stay at that level and work for the unit.  I think, dare I bring it up, this might be what CAP NCOs should be.

I think that unit NCOs should be heavily utilized in a training capacity, as they have the real specialty experience.  Not misused as "go-fers".

Yep

The life of a CAP LT......  being just like an RM NCO.  Who else in CAP is making things happen??  Do you really think it's all happening above CAP LT??    WRONG!!!  Who else is going to make the connections at the EM and community level??  Do you really think its all the high speed CAP LTC' and Col's??

Don't let that LT bother you all.  Some of us "got" plenty of real life ICS experience to include real life IC work and even did I 300 and 400.

Just because one is CAP LTC and Col, it doesn't mean that they see the whole program picture. Plenty of us DO see the whole picture we just have not got a chance to attend all those wonderful RSC's and to see that part of the "whole picture"

CAP leadership ought to be more than online courses, lame OPSEC issues, and whoever is having problems getting or having an ECI issues that shows some real LAME looking out for the troops

We Lt's do specialize and contribute just as much as any CAP Col out there...some CAP Col types out there just do not want recognize that just because we "haven't" been around, we as CAP LT's fail to see a larger picture

From RM enlisted experience.........  that is and the subject of "whole picture" and us not getting and accepting !@!@@# assignments is pure bunk.....

It is nice to know that I am not the only one who had to endure all of the ICS mind melt!!  I completed 100-800.  The worst was the 300!!  I thought my mind was going to implode though that week!

What is a RM?(Royal Marine?)

I had rather have a competent 13 year 1st Lt who loves what he/she does in the field with me than some book smart gungho "Oberst Klink"(Colonel) driven with the sole intent to get that next promotion or ribbon.   

Quote from: PaulR on November 26, 2008, 01:24:06 AM
What is a RM?(Royal Marine?)

Here it means RealMilitary usually followed by trademark.

Too funny!  Thanks for the clarification!

Quote from: heliodoc on November 26, 2008, 12:11:54 AM
Don't let that LT bother you all.  Some of us "got" plenty of real life ICS experience to include real life IC work and even did I 300 and 400.

Just because one is CAP LTC and Col, it doesn't mean that they see the whole program picture. Plenty of us DO see the whole picture we just have not got a chance to attend all those wonderful RSC's and to see that part of the "whole picture"

CAP leadership ought to be more than online courses, lame OPSEC issues, and whoever is having problems getting or having an ECI issues that shows some real LAME looking out for the troopsg and accepting !@!@@# assignments is pure bunk.....

I find it infinitely amusing that generally the people complaining most about all the "BS tests, etc." are the same ones who can't seem, to find the time to take those "BS tests".

We don't have the advantage of standardized up-front training, or on-going, fully-funded college level courses, so CAP people either need to bring it to the table with them, in which case they are granted grade and qualifications based on outside training, or do what they can within the program to work the program.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with specialization, we need more people who find something they are good at and stick with it to the point of real proficiency, rather then the multitude of members who try to "do it all" and do nothing well.  However don't complain if commanders make an issue of your choice to specialize when you are being considered for a command slot.

Individual members have the choice to specialize, commanders don't.  CC's need to be comfortable with the whole program in order to provide for everyone's needs, and while you might not think SLS/CLC is "important", there are many of us who know it is a key component of building good staff officers (when done with the proper curriculum and executed properly).

For those who were NCO's in a monetarily compensated service, there's no ECI-13 excuse because completion of an NCO academy grants a waiver to ECI-13.

What trips up a lot of those members is the inability to attain a Technician, etc. rating in a specialty because they have no interest in serving a staff position, which again is fine, but don't complain when you aren't processing or considered for command.

If you're happy with your level of involvement, that's great, CAP needs happy "doers", but to say that PD you're not interested in completing is "BS" is not cricket.

People tend to forget that the purpose of the professional development program (tech - master in a speciality track, ECI-13 through NSC, Levels I-V) is to train competent staff officers to run the squadrons, groups, and wings.  Rank is just one of the rewards you get for learning how parts of a CAP organization work, and then actually working in it.

Is Gore still the Veep in the ECI 13?  Mine had it and that was 6 years after he left office!

Quote from: MIKE on November 26, 2008, 01:37:04 AM

Quote from: PaulR on November 26, 2008, 01:24:06 AM
What is a RM?(Royal Marine?)

Here it means RealMilitary usually followed by trademark.

Like this:

RealMilitary™

Quote from: SarDragon on November 26, 2008, 06:17:17 AM

Quote from: MIKE on November 26, 2008, 01:37:04 AM

Quote from: PaulR on November 26, 2008, 01:24:06 AM
What is a RM?(Royal Marine?)

Here it means RealMilitary usually followed by trademark.

Like this:

RealMilitary™

Or this: RealMilitary® . My usual when referring to Ma Blue is RealAirForce®.  ;D

Quote from: Short Field on November 26, 2008, 03:31:52 AM
People tend to forget that the purpose of the professional development program (tech - master in a speciality track, ECI-13 through NSC, Levels I-V) is to train competent staff officers to run the squadrons, groups, and wings.  Rank is just one of the rewards you get for learning how parts of a CAP organization work, and then actually working in it.

I have to disagree.  CAP PD neither qualifies a person to run any level of CAP nor does it make the Officer a "better Officer".  All it is, are "rings of fire" a person has to jump through to get promoted.  The courses are largely outdated, and usually are presented by a person who had until just recently never taken the course themself. 

The whole "Officer Development" (Professional development) in CAP needs an overhaul.  They have started, but they are far from finished. 

Quote from: Timbo on November 26, 2008, 07:53:33 PM

Quote from: Short Field on November 26, 2008, 03:31:52 AM
People tend to forget that the purpose of the professional development program (tech - master in a speciality track, ECI-13 through NSC, Levels I-V) is to train competent staff officers to run the squadrons, groups, and wings.  Rank is just one of the rewards you get for learning how parts of a CAP organization work, and then actually working in it.

I have to disagree.  CAP PD neither qualifies a person to run any level of CAP nor does it make the Officer a "better Officer".  All it is, are "rings of fire" a person has to jump through to get promoted.  The courses are largely outdated, and usually are presented by a person who had until just recently never taken the course themself. 

The whole "Officer Development" (Professional development) in CAP needs an overhaul.  They have started, but they are far from finished. 

While the way the program is being run may not accomplish it, it is still the purpose of PD to make better officers and commanders.  Don't confuse "purpose" with "practice".

I don't think anyone would disagree that the program could be improved.

So requiring a person to be assigned to a squadron duty position and work in it long enough to understand it well enough to achieve a Master rating does nothing to teach a person to run that level of the organization?  Training a person to have a Master rating in Personnel, Professional Development, Operations, Emergency Services, Administration, Aerospace Education, or any of the other speciality tracks is just "rings of fire"?  

I will not even attempt to defend the current SLS or CLS courses except to say that they are better than the previous ones.  It also depends greatly on the leadership as to how well the courses are taught.  I know of some wings that allow SLS and CLS to be taught as a one day, eight hour course just to give people credit for it.  RSC and NSC tend to be ran better.  However, they are only a small part of the PD program.   The PD program is defined by the requirements to achieve the PD Levels I - V.  

You only get out of the program what you put into it.  I never attended a RM course that made people a better officer.  I attended a lot of courses that made you a better follower and gave you an expanded knowledge base to to use in making decisions.  Officership was taught by senior officers guiding junior officers.  Some produced good officers, others produced inept bureaucrats.     This applies to commissioned officers, noncommissioned officers, and the corporate business world.  Why should CAP be any different.

QuoteI have to disagree.  CAP PD neither qualifies a person to run any level of CAP nor does it make the Officer a "better Officer".  All it is, are "rings of fire" a person has to jump through to get promoted.  The courses are largely outdated, and usually are presented by a person who had until just recently never taken the course themself.

The whole "Officer Development" (Professional development) in CAP needs an overhaul.  They have started, but they are far from finished.

It sure seems to run that way, don't it? Here's the thing--It SUPPOSED to develop those who join who have no idea of what or how to do in a military environment. It supposed to be basic training for new officers and then progress to more important stuff. The idea of getting promoted would be reflecting how much you've learned in the organization. SO yes, a LT can do a lot more than a LTC, but the LTC had some more schooling--theoretically.

I'm very tempted to stay where I am but the fact is what would those around me (namely cadets) see in me? Complacency? I think that to set the example, I should be getting promoted, but most importantly, getting all those classes underneath my belt.

But these courses MUST be updated immediately...and thankfully it's underway.

Updated YES

Including the Specialty Tracks for Ops still referring to the 55 series CAPM's

Pilots have to update medicals, Form 5/91's etc

How about Papa CAP and updating Specialty tracks while they are "updating" websites

A true disservice to pilots as well as ground folks............

 You Moderators move this to where it's appropriate (I really didn't want to open a new topic on this)

  Most make it to 2d Lt within a short time. Why even have the many stages of stripes for SM?

Ribbons should show training, activity and recognition.

Qualification badges should show experience and expertise.

Grade should indicate level of responsibility and seniority.

CAP turns all that upside-down.

If you want grade to mean something more than "box tops," offer a suggestion -- don't just dig on light colonels who fast-burn. I'd rather that my grade meant something, myself. Otherwise, I have no authority to lead others, unless I'm a commander (well, I am, but I won't always be).

I have no problem with someone who holds at a certain grade. If it's what the member wants, so be it. Captain is a better holding point, just as it is for "real" officers -- there are some fairly old captains on active duty out there. But I'm not going to knock someone for having had first louie bars for eight years. I might make a wisecrack in fun, but I'm not going to knock them.

I guess I could have turned down promotions that came with advancing through the program, but if "rank" isn't that big of a deal, why not accept it.  It's not a big deal to me to have or have not.  I would have attended SLS, CLC, taken ECI 13 and attended RSC either way; to gain experience and knowledge to be a better senior member.  Just so happens, with those courses and time in service/grade, came more rank.

I never once put in for my own promotion.  Squadron and wing commanders submitted my promotion paperwork on my behalf.  What was I going to do, say "silly colonel, rank is for cadets, keep it".  I accepted it, wore it appropriately and set a standard for others to follow.

As for the 1LT4L, I've known several high quality ELL TEEs who had more time as a lieutenant than I had in CAP, but for one reason or another, they didn't promote.  Perhaps they came in as a 1st Lt and didn't see a need to advance in rank, or maybe they were never taught.  If I were a squadron commander and I had a long-term 1st Lt, I'd encourage them to complete ECI 13, attend SLS and get promoted.  If they choose not to, I wouldn't press the issue or pass them up for awards or better duty assignments.

I was a 30 year old Lt Col.  I wasn't too excited about it, but what the heck.  I advanced through a legitimate program without making too much effort.  If the max rank I could achieve was Captain, I would have done the exact same thing, if for nothing more than the training value.

Quote from: NavLT on November 25, 2008, 09:22:27 PM
I can not help but laugh at the issue.  My best friend and I joined CAP at the same time he made it to C/LTC and Me to C/1LT (before going active duty) 20 years later I am a Maj (who may never make it to LTC due to politics) and he is a 1LT for life (ECI 13).  We both are Air Crew, GT, Base Staff.  We both have been Deputy commander and on Group staff.  What is the difference in the real world.  In a year when we are both ICs will it matter that he is a 1LT and I am a Major?  When the next command vacancy comes up will it matter which of us fills the need?

V/R
LT J.

Maybe be a friend and have your ex C/Lt Col read this: Interim Change Letter – CAPR 50-17, CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program and CAPR 280-2, Civil Air Patrol Aerospace Education Mission

Where he will find that because he made it to C/LtCol, he will get credit for ECI 13.

"2. Credit will be awarded to former cadets based on specific accomplishments. Those members who earned the Earhart Award may receive the technician rating in the Cadet Programs Officer
specialty training track. Members who have earned the Eaker Award may be awarded completion of SLS, the CAP Senior Officer Course, and Level II. In addition, members who
earned the Spaatz Award may be awarded the senior rating in the Cadet Programs Officer specialty training track and the Yeager Award."

I disagree that saying because a 1st Lt has been 1Lt for 5 yrs is lazy. I could say that about people who have higher rank than 1Lt, just because You have the time to travel to take some 2 day class and maybe even money depending on the Levels dont mean that person is any more active than lower ranks in his/her squadron. Im a 2Lt now my Commander dont just promote because You have 6 months in. He didnt promote Me till 3 yrs. I have people who are under rank or me and above who arent as active as iam. Many of us have various reasons for that. I for one am now off on medical now sadly im a security officer, I dididnt get weekends off at the time. Also sometimes I didnt have money to even go take certain special classes. So just because a person may be a 1Lt for 5 years that dont in any way shape or form make that person lazzy. I know someone that is a Major and our lowest ranking person is more active than this person by far.

I also hold the opinion no one should be promoted from SM to 2nd Lt in 6 months. Thats way too short. I think they should have a person start at grade of SM than after 6 months or so get promoted to maybe a FO grade or what ever they came up with. Then maybe after 1 or 2 yrs be allowed to get 2nd Lt. Many people starting out dont know much about CAP in 6 months so Why should they be a 2nd Lt in 6 months?

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:33:01 AM
What is your opinion of the "1st Lt for Life?"

Well, let's first define this person.  As some of you know, one reaches a sort of "road block" at 1st Lt because beyond this is the first promotion that requires a element beyond the unit of local group, the ubiquitous COURSE 13.

So, is there anything to be said for or against a CAP Officer that declines to take that course and remains a 1st Lt for Life?

(NOTE: A bit of a clarification: the bottom two positions are EXAMPLES to demonstrate both sides of the issue based on actual comments I have heard made while in CAP.)
Pros
A 1st Lt for life is pretty much a "unit level" bloke and is likely a solid SQUADRON STAFFER that is a player in the system that makes CAP operate "where the rubber meets the road."  Not a bad thing...eh?

Cons
All CAP Officers should have promotion on their mind/agenda.  Professional Development is the key to CAP, being a 1st Lt longer than five years is a blasphemy, it shows a person is lazy.  Disgraceful!!!

OK, these are both viable points argued in different subjects.  What say you? 

....and this is why I vote for the SM NCO corps to come back!!!!   >:D

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 04:05:03 AM
I also hold the opinion no one should be promoted from SM to 2nd Lt in 6 months. Thats way too short. I think they should have a person start at grade of SM than after 6 months or so get promoted to maybe a FO grade or what ever they came up with. Then maybe after 1 or 2 yrs be allowed to get 2nd Lt. Many people starting out dont know much about CAP in 6 months so Why should they be a 2nd Lt in 6 months?

But SM-MADDOG, what about those of us who bust our butts to learn everything we can about CAP, and maybe have learned even more than some people who have been in CAP for way longer?  Besides the 6 months "probationary period" (which is how I look at it) shouldn't promotion be based on achievement, etc. -- not based on an arbitrary length of time considered to be an "appropriate" amount to spend to learn about CAP?

Well, in my professional opinion, just like the military, there are *some* (not all, not even close), SMs that come in and get the grade of 2LT and go buck wild on cadets b/c they get saluted, etc and just think they have "so much power."  I spent my enlisted time in the Army before I went to OCS.  I think that there are some SMs that need more work than others and if you can't prove yourself within the first six months (you know there are some out there), there should be a few NCO grades available (TSGT and higher) to provide additional training before we give officer grade to those SMs.  Yes, there are those SMs that are current military that are NCOs that can hold their own military grade in CAP, but I think that there should be an NCO corps for the SMs too......I'm one of 0.34893274329 that believe that though......   :'(

 Meh :-\

2Lt is the same as "thank you for your work, come join the club"

Does it equate to knowledge, or power, or anything beyond C/A1C understanding.  Nope.

You have got to start somewhere, and history shows that if you don't give a pat on the back people stop performing and don't start that crap of I don't ever want to be recognized because I eat razor blades.  The idea with the 2Lt is not to empower it is to set the hook on these green members.

You can walk in off the street, go to 12 weeks of training, and be a 2Lt in the Military.  Do you think they have a clue what it's like to be in the military walking in the door their first day as a butter bar?

Get real, and don't drag this down the same old NCO path again.  Go look at one of the 5 locked threads about that if you want to know the general tone of the board about that subject.

Oh, trust me, I'm on a board at national discussing this very topic and getting it from all directions, I know the general tone.  ;)

Quote from: CPT Anderson on January 22, 2009, 05:00:52 AMI'm one of 34893274329 that believe that though...

Its a significantly smaller number that believe an NCO corps has any place in CAP...

Yeah, my 0.whatever number I put, didn't post the 0. until I reloaded it this time....there are a few of us at "eschelons above reality" that think there should be an NCO corps.....

Would we have an OCS , also?

Ok but neither does the rank of Major, I know one Major who when she asked what My grade was I said SM, she replies what Is an SM? She didn't know. But thats not everyone. Thats why I dont like to judge a book by its cover. Everyone is different. Also this rank thing, Now that I got promoted I still make 0.00 an hr lol. Im glad I got the promotion and I should have got it way before. Several including other commander's even said I should have got 2Lt along time ago. Now that I have it great, but rank dont mean that much to Me, I like CAP and dont care that I do it volunteer just as im sure the rest of You feel. I just wish more squadrons would promote case by case basis instead of some Who just promote to 2nd Lt because they been a member 6 months and took the orienation and cppt class.

Quote from: IceNine on January 22, 2009, 05:56:28 AM
Meh :-\

2Lt is the same as "thank you for your work, come join the club"

Does it equate to knowledge, or power, or anything beyond C/A1C understanding.  Nope.

You have got to start somewhere, and history shows that if you don't give a pat on the back people stop performing and don't start that crap of I don't ever want to be recognized because I eat razor blades.  The idea with the 2Lt is not to empower it is to set the hook on these green members.

You can walk in off the street, go to 12 weeks of training, and be a 2Lt in the Military.  Do you think they have a clue what it's like to be in the military walking in the door their first day as a butter bar?

Get real, and don't drag this down the same old NCO path again.  Go look at one of the 5 locked threads about that if you want to know the general tone of the board about that subject.

Well let me rephrase what I said, as I said in another post on this topic I think squadrons should promote case by case basis and not just because a SM has 6 months in and attended the orientation and ccpt class. Thats the why our squadron co feels, he only promotes after a certain time and if He feels the SM has completed enough requirements and is ready for a rank of 2Lt. But yes if someone came in our squadron and learned allot in 6 months and meets the requirements I say hey promoted them to 2Lt. I should have been promoted along time ago to 2Lt, however thats How I feel and several other people. Now I have 2Lt. But that was My personal feelings on the matter off duty feelings of course lol :)

Quote from: tjaxe on January 22, 2009, 04:26:25 AM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 04:05:03 AM
I also hold the opinion no one should be promoted from SM to 2nd Lt in 6 months. Thats way too short. I think they should have a person start at grade of SM than after 6 months or so get promoted to maybe a FO grade or what ever they came up with. Then maybe after 1 or 2 yrs be allowed to get 2nd Lt. Many people starting out dont know much about CAP in 6 months so Why should they be a 2nd Lt in 6 months?

But SM-MADDOG, what about those of us who bust our butts to learn everything we can about CAP, and maybe have learned even more than some people who have been in CAP for way longer?  Besides the 6 months "probationary period" (which is how I look at it) shouldn't promotion be based on achievement, etc. -- not based on an arbitrary length of time considered to be an "appropriate" amount to spend to learn about CAP?

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
Ok but neither does the rank of Major, I know one Major who when she asked what My grade was I said SM, she replies what Is an SM? She didn't know. But thats not everyone. Thats why I dont like to judge a book by its cover. Everyone is different. Also this rank thing, Now that I got promoted I still make 0.00 an hr lol. Im glad I got the promotion and I should have got it way before. Several including other commander's even said I should have got 2Lt along time ago. Now that I have it great, but rank dont mean that much to Me, I like CAP and dont care that I do it volunteer just as im sure the rest of You feel. I just wish more squadrons would promote case by case basis instead of some Who just promote to 2nd Lt because they been a member 6 months and took the orienation and cppt class.

Quote from: IceNine on January 22, 2009, 05:56:28 AM
Meh :-\

2Lt is the same as "thank you for your work, come join the club"

Does it equate to knowledge, or power, or anything beyond C/A1C understanding.  Nope.

You have got to start somewhere, and history shows that if you don't give a pat on the back people stop performing and don't start that crap of I don't ever want to be recognized because I eat razor blades.  The idea with the 2Lt is not to empower it is to set the hook on these green members.

You can walk in off the street, go to 12 weeks of training, and be a 2Lt in the Military.  Do you think they have a clue what it's like to be in the military walking in the door their first day as a butter bar?

Get real, and don't drag this down the same old NCO path again.  Go look at one of the 5 locked threads about that if you want to know the general tone of the board about that subject.

SM - you could have told her Sergeant Major  >:D 

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
Ok but neither does the rank of Major, I know one Major who when she asked what My grade was I said SM,

Maybe you shoulda said SMWOG. >:D

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 10:23:05 AM
I think squadrons should promote case by case basis and not just because a SM has 6 months in and attended the orientation and ccpt class. Thats the why our squadron co feels, he only promotes after a certain time and if He feels the SM has completed enough requirements and is ready for a rank of 2Lt.

I just wish more squadron commanders would learn the regulations and then follow them.  Yes, the squadron commander has the authority to not promote a member - but it should be for a definable cause - not "after a certain time and if he feels the SM has completed enough requirements and is ready".

Quote from: CPT Anderson on January 22, 2009, 02:13:07 PM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
Ok but neither does the rank of Major, I know one Major who when she asked what My grade was I said SM, she replies what Is an SM? She didn't know. But thats not everyone. Thats why I dont like to judge a book by its cover. Everyone is different. Also this rank thing, Now that I got promoted I still make 0.00 an hr lol. Im glad I got the promotion and I should have got it way before. Several including other commander's even said I should have got 2Lt along time ago. Now that I have it great, but rank dont mean that much to Me, I like CAP and dont care that I do it volunteer just as im sure the rest of You feel. I just wish more squadrons would promote case by case basis instead of some Who just promote to 2nd Lt because they been a member 6 months and took the orienation and cppt class.

Quote from: IceNine on January 22, 2009, 05:56:28 AM
Meh :-\

2Lt is the same as "thank you for your work, come join the club"

Does it equate to knowledge, or power, or anything beyond C/A1C understanding.  Nope.

You have got to start somewhere, and history shows that if you don't give a pat on the back people stop performing and don't start that crap of I don't ever want to be recognized because I eat razor blades.  The idea with the 2Lt is not to empower it is to set the hook on these green members.

You can walk in off the street, go to 12 weeks of training, and be a 2Lt in the Military.  Do you think they have a clue what it's like to be in the military walking in the door their first day as a butter bar?

Get real, and don't drag this down the same old NCO path again.  Go look at one of the 5 locked threads about that if you want to know the general tone of the board about that subject.

SM - you could have told her Sergeant Major  >:D 

?Superman?? ;D

superman is better.   ;D