I haven't looked this up, but do I understand correctly that shorts and t-shirts are the approved uniforms for gliding activities? I'm not familiar with gliders, but don't they have air vents? If they do, I find it hard to believe they get much hotter than a C-172 at 1000' in Florida in July or August.
Then you have situations like in PAWG 2 years ago when a glider "crash landed" in a corn field and the kid got all cut up on his legs and arms. If he had been wearing something other than shorts and a t-shirt he would have been fine.
Quote from: CAPR 60-15-7. CAP Member Soaring Uniform. Soaring activity, to include the tow pilot, demands that comfortable, loose-fitting, nonrestrictive clothing be worn. A T-shirt, such as a CAP designed wing T-shirt with a pair of shorts/long pants and tennis shoes is sufficient. However, the final uniform decision rests with the region/wing commander. Due to space restrictions in most glider rudder pedal areas, the wearing of boots, including military style boots, is prohibited.
Okay, the boots thing makes some sense (Since you have to wear boots with flight suits and bdus, they wouldn't be appropriate).
But you can wear what are basically tennis shoes with the golf shirt uniform. Maybe this is the one activity where having this particular uniform makes some sense, though you would have to authorize a version specifically for cadets.
A glider's bubble canopy acts like a little greenhouse, and yes, it gets WAY hotter than a C-172.
A glider usually has one air vent, but flies at an airspeed of 50 knots, and about 45 knots while thermalling. The air vent on a 172 is taking air at 105 knots or more, plus the wash off the propeller.
Golf shirt and gray shorts would work, but who am I to introduce logic into the discussion?
Exactly. Either use the durned golf shirt uniform as is. Or add shorts.
Or....just use BDU pants, T shirt and sneakers. No muss, no fuss. When you're done, put the boots and blouse back on. Voila.
I could go with authorizing shorts (mandatory style & color) with the golf shirt for this one activity assuming Kach's info is correct (no reason to doubt it). I'd rather have that then some crazy tshirt.
So, what happens when someone, like a cadet, shows up to a meeting in this uniform?
Quote from: RiverAux on August 10, 2007, 07:23:57 PM
I could go with authorizing shorts (mandatory style & color) with the golf shirt for this one activity assuming Kach's info is correct (no reason to doubt it). I'd rather have that then some crazy tshirt.
I agree, this looks like a job for the GOLF SHIRT!!! (with grey shorts)
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 10, 2007, 07:24:39 PM
So, what happens when someone, like a cadet, shows up to a meeting in this uniform?
Inform him that this uniform is only authorized for glider activities only and send him home and have a talk with his cadet supervisor about making sure that cadets understand proper uniform wear.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 10, 2007, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 10, 2007, 07:24:39 PM
So, what happens when someone, like a cadet, shows up to a meeting in this uniform?
Inform him that this uniform is only authorized for glider activities only and send him home and have a talk with his cadet supervisor about making sure that cadets understand proper uniform wear.
And CAP Officers?
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 10, 2007, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on August 10, 2007, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 10, 2007, 07:24:39 PM
So, what happens when someone, like a cadet, shows up to a meeting in this uniform?
Inform him that this uniform is only authorized for glider activities only and send him home and have a talk with his cadet supervisor about making sure that cadets understand proper uniform wear.
And CAP Officers?
there is no senior member protection policy. make them do pushups. oooor, take away their donuts... >:D
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 10, 2007, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on August 10, 2007, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 10, 2007, 07:24:39 PM
So, what happens when someone, like a cadet, shows up to a meeting in this uniform?
Inform him that this uniform is only authorized for glider activities only and send him home and have a talk with his cadet supervisor about making sure that cadets understand proper uniform wear.
And CAP Officers?
Same answer. If the uniform is specifically only authorized for one activity, I wouldn't have any problem at all telling a senior he shouldn't be wearing it at a meeting either. Slightly different than our standard "problem" wherein for most activities no commander has the guts to specify a uniform of the day and then stick with that decision.
It's a good approach, but "Sparky" brings up a valid question. Sure, the standard "smite them using appropriate procedures and point out the regulations" response sort of "answers" the question, but looking at our current CAP culture it won't do enough to actually prevent the problem.
How many times do S'members show up to regular squadron meetings wearing the flight suit? Sure, we all know the appropriate response, but it's so rarely enforced that it's common place to see this violation.
I do like the idea of using the polo shirt, however, as the shirt instead of just a random t-shirt. At least one part of the uniform could look like others we have. The justification for special clothing while flying gliders is legitimate... it can get incredibly hot in those small cockpits. It's not the same as the Cessna, where you have a windscreen; in the glider, you're sitting under a glass bubble which just intensifies the incoming sun rays.
I'd rather see NHQ standardize what people will wear for glider flying, and add clear language on when it can and cannot be worn. It's still a better solution than saying when flying gliders, members can just wear some t-shirt and shorts.
QuoteHow many times do S'members show up to regular squadron meetings wearing the flight suit? Sure, we all know the appropriate response, but it's so rarely enforced that it's common place to see this violation.
You're assuming someone has actually made an effort in a squadron to educate the officers about uniforms appropriate for squadron meetings and has actually specified a uniform of the day. That seems rare for senior squadrons or the senior side of composite squadrons.
It's sure not rare in my small part of the world. When I was teaching Level I, proper uniform wear was emphasized, including when and when not to wear certain combinations.
As I'm reading all the posts below, I'm thinking "how many of the commenters are glider pilots or CFIGs?"
1. As JohnKachenmeister pointed out, flying a Cessna around at 100 kts with fresh air coming in through 5 vents is not the same as flying a glider around at 40 kts with fresh air coming in through 1 vent. The glider canopy gives no protection whatsoever from the sun, so the inside is just a bit steamier than the atmosphere in a parked car with the windows rolled up.
2. Once you've spent several days sweltering in the back seat of a glider at a midsummer glider academy - then come talk to me about how appropriate long pants, long sleeves, a dark-colored polyester golf shirt, or perhaps a flight suit would be. The only way to survive safely and halfway comfortably is in a light-colored cotton (or wicking) shirt, shorts, and a sun-shielding hat.
3. The term for landing a glider in a farm field is "landing out." It is not a "crash landing" and is not an emergency. It's an avoidable, but not dangerous, part of soaring. Most experienced glider pilots have "landed out" at one time or another. I have never heard of anyone getting "cut up" while landing out, - perhaps the cadet in question chose to walking through tall corn stalks - but if he had been dehydrated/heat-stressed from wearing long sleeves & long pants, I imagine he would have been worse off.
4. The "soaring uniform" is used only when people are soaring. Everybody who uses the CAP gliders knows that. It's simple: a CAP T-shirt, a pair of decent shorts, and sneakers. It has been in use since at least 1998, and during the last nine years I have never heard of anyone attempting to show up at a CAP meeting, wing conference, formal banquet, etc. in a T-shirt and shorts, claiming to be "in uniform."
So the concern y'all are exhibiting ("eek, what do we do when someone shows up at a CAP meeting in their 'soaring uniform' ") would seem to be unfounded. None of the cadets or seniors, I've ever flown gliders with have seemed the least bit unclear about the fact that the "soaring uniform" is used only while soaring.
Pylon: On the contrary, I believe the CAP soaring uniform is standardized. The language in 60-1 seems clear enough to me. It's not a random T-shirt, it's a CAP T-shirt ("such as a CAP designed wing T-shirt"). The only thing that might be productive to add would be something about the shorts ("plain shorts, tan or blue in color, conservative in length" or something to that effect).
Hmm, seems to me that anytime you have to land the glider someplace other than an actual landing field it is an emergency situation even if it might not actually be a "crash" landing.
Just because a powered airplane can safely land on a highway, when it is forced to do it because of a lack of fuel or some other situation, it is an emergency.
It seems a bit to ask for a specific uniform for the gliders. In reality , how often do members (cadets & seniors) fly in the gliders (other than instructors). I would say not all that much. Many only get a few rides. To make someone buy a uniform for what would be a few occasions (especially for a cadet) is a bit much. I know CAP is Come And Pay, but c'mon now.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 10, 2007, 09:48:27 PM
Hmm, seems to me that anytime you have to land the glider someplace other than an actual landing field it is an emergency situation even if it might not actually be a "crash" landing.
Just because a powered airplane can safely land on a highway, when it is forced to do it because of a lack of fuel or some other situation, it is an emergency.
Please don't compare a glider "landing out" in a field to a powered plane making an emergency landing on a highway.
One is a normal occurrence and the other is an emergency.Gliders are more like hot air balloons. They would like to land at an airport, but when none is available, they land safely in a field, with little or no damage to either field or aircraft. This is one reason why the FAA allows solo in gliders and balloons at age 14, whereas power pilots cannot solo until 16.
To put it another way: experienced, expert, safe glider pilots land out routinely; whereas an experienced, expert, safe power pilot will typically go his entire flying career without running out of fuel or landing on a highway.
This isn't really relevant to CAP glider activities, but whenever there is an SSA regional soaring competition, there are around 30 to 50 gliders competing, and on any given day (depending on lift conditions) 5 or more of them may "land out." To quote George Moffatt's article on glider competitions, "If you don't land out occasionally, you aren't pushing hard enough." ( see http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/Glider%20racing/Moffat.pdf )
Then again, it's a competition, so the pilots are pushing, trying to get as far as possible, or complete a course as fast as possible. We don't do that type of glider flying in CAP.
During regular local dual instruction, or solo (CAP type glider flying), "land-outs" are quite rare. A land-out in this case causes significant embarrassment to those involved, since on a local flight there is really no excuse for not having stayed within range of the airport.
Other background on landing out:
http://www.sac.ca/cas/techniques/iangrant/iangrant.html#field
and
http://www.sac.ca/cas/techniques/iangrant/iangrant3.html
^ Ok thanks, now I know some of the correct terminology. I say since the regs say there are uniforms for powered aircraft, lets get a sentence that says what type, color, style shorts and T-shirt needs to be worn while in a glider.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 10, 2007, 09:48:27 PM
Hmm, seems to me that anytime you have to land the glider someplace other than an actual landing field it is an emergency situation even if it might not actually be a "crash" landing.
Just because a powered airplane can safely land on a highway, when it is forced to do it because of a lack of fuel or some other situation, it is an emergency.
No. A land-out is so routine on cross country flights that most glider pilots have a recovery team follow them. I lucked out and made it to an airport, and was able to have the towplane come and get me. Many $$, but I didn't have to sweat like a $2 hooker on payday night trying to take the glider apart and loading it on a trailer.