Figured this didn't have to be a polling a question. But how many people out there have Squadron hats? How did you design them and where did you get them from? We're looking into maybe doing them ourselves. So far there's only one in ours right now. I call it the Boston Cadet Squadron Hat Mark 1.2. I just had an addition put on to it. Since I like fitted caps I had a Squadron Patch put on the front (little big but it's a test) and on the back I just had a gound team badge sewen on. Since I wear it out of uniform I like to have something there when I put a hat backwards. Plus I wear the hat in my BBDU's or my CAP utility.
Almost all the squadron here on Long Island have pretty basic squadron covers....
Each has a unique color (navy, black, green, red, etc) with the last three digits of the charter numeber on the front in 3-4 inch numerals in a contrasting color. MY squadron is a black hat with the numbers 117 on the front. Its a one size fits all and the numbers are embroidered. Cost the member about $11 dollars, and the first one is free when you join (at least i think it was).
And another question as long as we are on the line of covers...
How many people out there "crown" thier covers in the front? Almost all the cadets around here seem to (mins from WIWAC).
Organizational baseball caps are lame... and when the ABU is rolled out hopefully they will be banned just like the USAF has done. BDU caps all 'round.
At least the Coast Guard does organizational caps right IMO.
Edit: And we don't wear covers.
Quote from: MIKE on August 08, 2007, 05:19:55 PM
Organizational baseball caps are lame... and when the ABU is rolled out hopefully they will be banned just like the USAF has done. BDU caps all 'round.
Ah, but the USAF has not banned Organizational Baseball Caps, at least not with the Woodland BDU's, which is what CAP wears.
They have banned them when wearing the DCU (Desert Combat Uniform), we don't wear that.
They have banned them when wearing the ABU, we don't wear that one either. We may in the future, but not right now.
Per the 39-1, Organizational Baseball Caps are worn at the Unit Commander's discretion.
You don't want your unit to wear them and you're the Commander, no problem, it's your decision.
But if you're not the Commander, and the Commander authorizes them then about all you can do, if you don't like them, is to not wear it.
You still have the option of wearing the BDU cap.
Quote from: PHall on August 08, 2007, 05:48:23 PM
But if you're not the Commander, and the Commander authorizes them then about all you can do, if you don't like them, is to not wear it.
You still have the option of wearing the BDU cap.
Can't the commander proscribe members from wearing certain uniform options for the sake of uniformity, though? For example, the commander can order that only a certain t-shirt color option is worn in the unit with the BDUs for example, or that at a certain function, nobody will wear ties with their short-sleeve SDBs. Wouldn't logic follow that the commander
could require everyone to wear one cap or the other?
Well small stuff like certain colored shirts, no ties with short sleve shirts, they're more squadron tradition. Like in my Squadron only staff can wear a black t-shirt with their BDU's.
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 05:58:27 PM
Well small stuff like certain colored shirts, no ties with short sleve shirts, they're more squadron tradition. Like in my Squadron only staff can wear a black t-shirt with their BDU's.
Perhaps it's a tradition in some squadrons, but it's the commander's perogative to allow that or to change that.
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 05:58:27 PM
Well small stuff like certain colored shirts, no ties with short sleve shirts, they're more squadron tradition. Like in my Squadron only staff can wear a black t-shirt with their BDU's.
Personally, I have an issue with only staff allowed to wear black t-shirts. My unit is 130 miles from the nearest military installation. That and Vanguard are about the only options as far as quality brown t-shirts go for our members.
On the other hand, you can buy black t's at the local Walmart. We have one of those about three miles from where our unit meets.
I think that any commander restricting black t's to staff isn't considering the impact on all the unit members.
We meet in a DOD building with uniformed personel. Plus we do it so if we have to deblose we can be told apart but the public.
The Seattle Composite Squadron has a distinctive blue baseball cap with our squadron insignia embroidered. What I call the "Frasier" logo with any outline of the Seattle skyline.
I can get source/cost info if needed.
Here is a link to the hat page on our website. We started a tradition (sort of) of taking pictures of the hat in distant or exotic locations. Kinda fun:
http://www.capseattlesquadron.org/squadron_hat.htm
-SeattleSarge
Those are awsome, I was actually taking a look at them yesterday. Did you go through a local company to get them made?
I'm pretty sure we used a local firm. I'll check with my logistics guy and let you know.
-SeattleSarge
P.S. They also match the shade of the BBDU.
Thanks. The one I've come up with is fairly close to the BBDU. I'll post pictures later once I take some of Mark 1.2. Plus I have to learn how to post a picture on here. ;D
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 08, 2007, 06:24:48 PM
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 05:58:27 PM
Well small stuff like certain colored shirts, no ties with short sleve shirts, they're more squadron tradition. Like in my Squadron only staff can wear a black t-shirt with their BDU's.
Personally, I have an issue with only staff allowed to wear black t-shirts. My unit is 130 miles from the nearest military installation. That and Vanguard are about the only options as far as quality brown t-shirts go for our members.
On the other hand, you can buy black t's at the local Walmart. We have one of those about three miles from where our unit meets.
I think that any commander restricting black t's to staff isn't considering the impact on all the unit members.
Hawk-
What about internet ordering? I recently ordered package of 6 brown t-shirts online and had them in my hands in 4 days. I dont think that with the ease of getting just about anything through the internet that access to certain items is really a valid argument against using them.
My opinion: Don't care for organizational hats.
My experience: Was in a squadron that wore black baseball caps for 20 years before I showed up. I wasn't about to change that, so I got me a black hat. It was a right of passage for some. Once they graduated T-Flight, they'd be issued a black hat. Not sure where it came from, but it could have been worse.
Problem I had was that there were 4 or 5 different types of plain black baseball caps, but only 1 BDU hat. I know, why didn't we just purchase the hats from the same place? Well, people, over time, got them from different places, companies, manufacturers etc. Some had mesh, some didn't, some were adjustable, some were fitted, some were low-profile, some were high. Yadda yadda yadda...
Then....having a squadron hat meant that you still had to own [read: purchase] a BDU cap, because you couldn't wear your baseball cap outside of squadron activities. So now, instead of being required to buy just one hat, you had to buy two, and as a squadron commander, I did everything I could to limit what anyone had to spend money on.
And then, what happens when someone loses their black hat? They wear their BDU cap, now you've got one knucklehead in a different cap. Keep everyone in a BDU cap and all is solved.
Again, I've worn it because it was the right thing to do, but if I were king, I'd limit hats to BDU hats only, except, maybe, just maybe, during encampment for flight designation.
Personally, I like squadron ballcaps with the BBDU's and blue utilities.
I dont foresee the ballcaps going away when we adopt the ABU: USAF loves all that stuff that makes CAP uniforms "distinctive."
Does anyone wear the woodland ballcap w/BDU's??
Quote from: O-Rex on August 08, 2007, 09:24:27 PM
Personally, I like squadron ballcaps with the BBDU's and blue utilities.
I dont foresee the ballcaps going away when we adopt the ABU: USAF loves all that stuff that makes CAP uniforms "distinctive."
Does anyone wear the woodland ballcap w/BDU's??
I have once or twice. I don't remember why.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 08, 2007, 06:24:48 PM
Personally, I have an issue with only staff allowed to wear black t-shirts. My unit is 130 miles from the nearest military installation. That and Vanguard are about the only options as far as quality brown t-shirts go for our members.
On the other hand, you can buy black t's at the local Walmart. We have one of those about three miles from where our unit meets.
I think that any commander restricting black t's to staff isn't considering the impact on all the unit members.
Wal-mart carries brown Ts as well. I had to check into that as we have the same issue with Ranger schools where only Expert Rangers are allowed to wear black. Incidentally, I don't wear black Ts to them either.
Just got the Mark 1.2 will have pictures up tonight.
CAP already has more than enough "uniformity" issues....we don't need to add to it by having squadron hats. If you want to stand out, where the squadron patch. No need to have both.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 09, 2007, 09:01:44 PM
CAP already has more than enough "uniformity" issues....we don't need to add to it by having squadron hats. If you want to stand out, where the squadron patch. No need to have both.
We are not allowed to wear squadron patches on our flight duty uniform or flight jackets.
Squadron hats are worn with pride by all squadron members. It is a symbol of our high standards and the squadron's prominent role in this Wing. We will, on occasion, present one as a gift to a visiting VIP.
-SeattleSarge
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 09, 2007, 09:31:51 PM
We are not allowed to wear squadron patches on our flight duty uniform or flight jackets.
Yet people wear them anyway because they can't read.
Quote from: MIKE on August 09, 2007, 09:34:28 PM
Yet people wear them anyway because they can't read.
Well, I can't claim any superior knowledge of 39-1 on this either. Traditionally, Wing let squadrons wear insignia on the right sleeve of the FDU and flight jacket. Our Wing Chief of Staff reminded a couple of our people (rightly so) at a few SAREXs.
I've been encouraging our pilots to wear the FAA proficient pilot patch as so many of them have completed levels in the WINGS program.
-SeattleSarge
Well... This is a subject for another thread, possibly including a poll. >:D
squadron patches aren't allowed on the flight suit now? I must have missed that one. Pretty silly to just have them on BDUs then...
In our wing all of us on Flight Crew wear ours on the right shoulder.
Your wing is wrong. :)
Yeah, isn't the right shoulder of the flight suit left for an "optional" patch. I've seen guys wear everything from Proficient Pilot to NGSAR patches. Why couldn't you wear a squadron patch?
I'm a huge fan of keeping things simple and as cheap as possible. Squadorn patches can cost hundreds of dollars as can squadron hats. We're already asking folks to fork over money for the basic requirements, I never enjoyed requiring them to fork over another $5 for a squadron patch and $10 for a squadron hat.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 10, 2007, 12:47:00 AM
squadron patches aren't allowed on the flight suit now? I must have missed that one. Pretty silly to just have them on BDUs then...
Yeah, I guess I missed that one too.
To quote myself:
Quote from: MIKE on August 09, 2007, 09:47:15 PM
Well... This is a subject for another thread, possibly including a poll. >:D
Well, I went and checked the manual and it does seem to not allow squadron patches on flight suits-- only wing, region, or national patches, or one of the many, many other patches. Don't really understand why a squadron patch wouldn't be included if you're going to allow all those special activities and other patches. For example, you can wear a Hawk Mountain patch on your flight suit -- why? doesn't even have anything to do with air ops..
Can anyone tell us if you can or cannot wear a metal grade rank on your Squadron Cover? And please show your proof/site/or wherever you see the justification. Thank you.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Figure 2-26.4. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander.
The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be
prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above
visor.
If grade insignia were authorized it would say so, just like it does for the BDU caps.
I think Squadron Covers/ ball caps, should be approved the same route as Squadron Patches.
I hope when the ABU's eventually arrive, anything other than the AF style cover/hat will not be approved. Isn't the AF already eliminating wearing unit specific caps/hats/covers??
With ABUs yes, and DCUs too apparently.
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 09, 2007, 12:42:53 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 09, 2007, 12:37:32 PM
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 09, 2007, 12:33:44 PM
Expert Rangers
*snicker* *snicker* ::)
"HEH HEH HE HEH HEH HEHHEH" (in my best BEAVIS voice)
Sometimes I think that CAP is composed largely of people who instead of enjoying the wide variety of activities as best they can in their own way, prefer to waste time and effort making fun of how others enjoy it.
^I am not making fun of those who decide to participate in the "Ranger" programs, I am however, poking fun at the title they gave themselves. I think it rather presumptuous for a 15 year old walking around calling himself an "Expert Ranger," when the first thing that pops into peoples minds when you say "Ranger" is the Special Forces Group.
I too enjoy many of the types of things that are conducted at the "ranger" schools, wilderness survival, ground search, rappelling, emergency first aid - but I would not under any circumstance call myself a "ranger."
Please do not think for one minute that I am "making fun" of how others enjoy CAP, simply the title. This post was a serious digression, so I now return you to your discussion about squadron hats and such.
I don't wear one... :)
Squadron Hats........why do people wear metal rank on their hats. I see TP doing it all the time. Whats that saying? "LEAD BY EXAMPLE". Apparently he missed that part during Staff College. I see it more at special activities and Encampments than anywhere else. Just read the Reg and follow the guidance. Not that HARD.
Quote from: MIKE on August 11, 2007, 08:27:39 PM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Figure 2-26.4. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander.
The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be
prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above
visor.
If grade insignia were authorized it would say so, just like it does for the BDU caps.
That's just it. The manual does not address "it". Again, can we wear a metal grade on our
Squadron covers? If not, where does it say or allude to say that you cannot? If you can, where does it say or allude to say that you can?
Thank you.
Thats just it... if it's not in there it is not authorized.
Quote from: CAPM 39-11-1. ... COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. ...
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 13, 2007, 02:01:24 PM
Squadron Hats........why do people wear metal rank on their hats. I see TP doing it all the time. Whats that saying? "LEAD BY EXAMPLE". Apparently he missed that part during Staff College. I see it more at special activities and Encampments than anywhere else. Just read the Reg and follow the guidance. Not that HARD.
If you are discussing the personal Squadron hat, yes it is hard. Where does it say or imply that you cannot wear the metal grade? I need help finding this and a friendly assist is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
The answer is no. It is impossible to put every single "can't" into the manual. So they focus on the "cans."
Each hat that is authorized Grade Insignia says so - they left it out on purpose because it isn't authorized.
The connections people are making with it reminds me of Holy Grail. (horribly misquoted...) "So if the witch weighs as much as a duck, and the duck floats, and so does wood - then the witch must be made of wood and should be burned..."
"So if the BDU cap must have grade insignia on it and the Squadron Hat can be worn with the BDU, that must mean that the Squadron Hat must have grade insignia..."
Quote from: MIKE on August 13, 2007, 06:37:03 PM
Thats just it... if it's not in there it is not authorized.
There are a lot of "things" that are not in "there". For example, when to wear contact lenses or the type of underwear we can wear, etc.
So, if you don't know or this question is a puzzler, just say so or move on.
For those up to the challenge, can you cite an implication or an intention about metal grades on personalized Squadron Hats?
Thank you.
See cite added to my previous post.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Fig 2-264. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander. The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above
visor.
Grade insignia is not mentioned, therefore grade insignia is not authorized.
Quote from: arajca on August 13, 2007, 06:57:38 PM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Fig 2-264. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander. The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above
visor.
Grade insignia is not mentioned, therefore grade insignia is not authorized.
This is better. Since its not mentioned, that doesn't mean that you can't wear it either.
For example, a pledge pin on your uniform is clearly not allowed and directly implied in 39-1.
Your thoughts?
Thank you.
Quote from: L Cid on August 13, 2007, 06:42:24 PM
There are a lot of "things" that are not in "there". For example, when to wear contact lenses or the type of underwear we can wear, etc.
So, if you don't know or this question is a puzzler, just say so or move on.
Dude, seriously. Let's be clear on this. What does the CAPM 39-1 control? Uniform items and your appearance in uniform.
Are contact lenses or underwear uniform items? No. Can you see them while you're wearing the uniform? No.
Is grade insignia a uniform item? Absolutely. Are baseball caps, including the squadron ones, uniform items? Absolutely. They fall under CAPM 39-1's guidance.
National is so adament about the fact that if it's not in CAPM 39-1, then you can't wear it/do it, they put this in Paragraph 1-1:
QuoteCOMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.
The appropriate area dealing with baseball caps has already been quoted. Grade insignia cannot be worn on your baseball cap, it cannot be worn on your civilian clothing, and it cannot be worn where you please. The only places you can wear it are on your CAP uniform, where CAPM 39-1 tells you that you can place it.
Quote from: L Cid on August 13, 2007, 07:07:26 PM
This is better. Since its not mentioned, that doesn't mean that you can't wear it either.
Yes it does. Without any ambiguity, yes it
does mean that you
cannot wear it.
Quote from: L Cid on August 13, 2007, 07:07:26 PMFor example, a pledge pin on your uniform is clearly not allowed and directly implied in 39-1.
Your thoughts?
That's even farther in left field, dude. Not even close to kosher.
Once again, since CAPM 39-1 doesn't say you can place it on any of your uniforms, you cannot wear it. This is really a very simple game.
I just look at metal grade insignia on your hat as a good way to get twin blood-trails down your forehead. We have a former Army captain who does that...just waiting for him to hit his head on something and have his hat nailed down tight.
FWIW, I have yet to meet a 15yo Expert Ranger..most of them are adults as it is hard to progress one level a year at the entry-level and the upper levels are even tougher. Considering that you have to be 13 to even go to Hawk and Expert is the 5th level up, I just don't see it happening.
Incidentally A) the name has been around a lot longer than almost any of us has been in CAP, so even if we did try to change it (I did), it won't go, and B) the 6th RTB at Eglin has offered to help with our survival exercise over Labor Day Weekend, so I don't see them having too much of a problem with it either.
So does that mean I can wear my bright orange crevate now...
You can..I've asked our Ranger cadets not to wear it except for special occassions as I think it looks too insecure and is not in the interests of uniformity.
Sorry about the mistimed edit, for those wondering where Jimmydeano got that from, I had mentioned being allowed to wear grade insignia on Orange baseball caps since they were now authorized nationally; I had taken it out because on further reading of the thread, I realized that the question was stupid and had already been beaten to death.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 13, 2007, 07:31:40 PM
You can..I've asked our Ranger cadets not to wear it except for special occassions as I think it looks too insecure and is not in the interests of uniformity.
Sorry about the mistimed edit, for those wondering where Jimmydeano got that from, I had mentioned being allowed to wear grade insignia on Orange baseball caps since they were now authorized nationally; I had taken it out because on further reading of the thread, I realized that the question was stupid and had already been beaten to death.
^Oy vey...I think we're writing over each other... :) My orange crevat comment unfortunately wasn't about anything relating to rangers (although it seems to have incidentally fit rather well), but about the "uniform manual not telling me I can't wear it" comments from above.
Also, when I said "crevat" I was implying a replacement tie for the blues, rather than the orange ascot.
I hope I'm less confused now...
How dare those Boy Scouts call themselves Scouts!!! What about those dedicated people in Army scout units?
^ Difference between the phrase "Boy Scout" and "Scout". No Difference between "Ranger" and "Ranger". How dare hawk grads call themselves "Ranger". I also have never found any reference to "Ranger Grade" in any CAP manual/ reg. Other than what PAWG puts together, which is crappy by the way there is no reference.
Back to hats.......Why does 39-1 say adherence to the book is mandatory, but Commanders are allowed to make exceptions to headgear? Never understood that. Lets all get into the same uniform JUST ONCE!
Quote from: MIKE on August 08, 2007, 05:19:55 PM
Organizational baseball caps are lame... and when the ABU is rolled out hopefully they will be banned just like the USAF has done. BDU caps all 'round.
Well stated. Succinct and to the point.
Quote from: MIKE on August 08, 2007, 05:19:55 PM
Organizational baseball caps are lame... and when the ABU is rolled out hopefully they will be banned just like the USAF has done. BDU caps all 'round.
Watch out for the PAWG black van...
Quote from: JC004 on August 14, 2007, 06:49:12 AM
Quote from: MIKE on August 08, 2007, 05:19:55 PM
Organizational baseball caps are lame... and when the ABU is rolled out hopefully they will be banned just like the USAF has done. BDU caps all 'round.
Watch out for the PAWG black van...
When did you get one????
I figured PA WG would drive something like a black Chevy Blazer or Jeep...with blaze orange trim of course
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 14, 2007, 03:01:15 PM
I figured PA WG would drive something like a black Chevy Blazer or Jeep...with blaze orange trim of course
and reflective tape all over it, with a whistle for a horn. ;) >:D
I found something better than a whistle... >:D
http://www.hornblasters.com/
Quote
Ever heard a train sound its horn from a mile away? How about from up close? HornBlasters.com specializes in selling extremely loud train horn setups for just about any use. We have lots of specialized kits already perfected for use on trucks, cars, SUVs, boats, or just about any kind of vehicle imaginable.
Quote from: Pylon on August 14, 2007, 03:04:43 PM
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 14, 2007, 03:01:15 PM
I figured PA WG would drive something like a black Chevy Blazer or Jeep...with blaze orange trim of course
and reflective tape all over it, with a whistle for a horn. ;) >:D
On a silver chain.
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 14, 2007, 02:52:56 PM
When did you get one????
'few weeks ago...shhhh...it's a secret.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 14, 2007, 03:01:15 PM
I figured PA WG would drive something like a black Chevy Blazer or Jeep...with blaze orange trim of course
Nope...black vans are standard issue by NHQ Special Ops. That's what the REST of our vehicles are like...