CAP Talk

See the attached article on the new USAF Heritage Coat being ready for wear testing.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123061371

I had to look closely but there is a belt a la USMC's Service A uniform.  In fact, the whole thing looks like the Service A jacket.

Quote from: DKruse on July 19, 2007, 08:45:57 PM
I had to look closely but there is a belt a la USMC's Service A uniform.  In fact, the whole thing looks like the Service A jacket.

Careful, them's fighting works around here!  ;)

All kidding aside, I like this uniform.  It has just enough tradition in it to be attractive. 

Was I asleep when the voting for the usage of the term "warrior ethos" came about?  When did that start and why?  Does the term warrior ethos mean the same to Marines as to Air Force or Coasties?? What does warrior ethos have to do with a service jacket??  Does CAP have, or deserve warrior ethos??  Can I get a ribbon for prior warrior ethos service??  Does an ES gung ho officer have more warrior ethos than a safety officer?  Do the air crew members have the most warrior ethos of all?? Inquiring minds want to know..

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 08:54:28 PM
Was I asleep when the voting for the usage of the term "warrior ethos" came about?  When did that start and why?  Does the term warrior ethos mean the same to Marines as to Air Force or Coasties?? What does warrior ethos have to do with a service jacket??  Does CAP have, or deserve warrior ethos??  Can I get a ribbon for prior warrior ethos service??  Does an ES gung ho officer have more warrior ethos than a safety officer?  Do the air crew members have the most warrior ethos of all?? Inquiring minds want to know..

I think they mean to say that this is a "shift away" from the "corporate model" that was pushed by folks of the McPeak era.  The idea was for the USAF uniform to look like a "plain business suit."  This has been cited as the source for the "limited ribbons," slit pocket and sleeve rank of the original McPeak Uniform.

The new service coat is designed to look like a "military uniform."  True, going back to the 1920s/30s/40s for inspiration is a bit of an over kill, but many people find the look of that period to be traditional.

Ha Ha...

You said "Limited ribbons."

That's funny.  Ha Ha!

Did you get this part...

QuoteThe test locations are Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., and its Gunter Annex; Lackland and Randolph Air Force Bases in Texas, and the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado. In addition, the Air Force Honor Guard will put the coat through its paces.

OK, Conspiracy Theorists...have at it!!!

OK, I've got a few questions about this new foray into military fashion.  These are serious questions.

1.  There WERE two different uniforms designed, one with an open collar and one with a choker collar.  Does the appearance of the single female model in the open lapel uniform mean that the choker collar went (deservedly) to the ash can of history?

2.  On the open-lapel version, there WAS a wing-and-prop insignia on the lower part of the lapel.  I don't see it on the female sergeant's uniform, but enlisted uniforms never had the branch device on the lower lapel.  Will officers have the wing-and-prop design?

3.  If you are not an Air Force aircrewman, will you still get the wing-and-prop, or some other specialty design?

4.  How bad will CAP screw up this uniform?

5.  IF this uniform is adopted, and full-size medals are authorized on appropriate occasions, will CAP make Vanguard create full-size CAP medals for us?  If not, will miniature medals also be authorized on this new uniform?

6.  Will I live long enough to care about any of this?

I will admit that my experience and exposure to this new uniform is limited, but from what I have seen so far I may have to get the TPU.  The belted uniform will look like crapola on us guys who are borderline (and sometimes cheating) on the weight standard.  Worse, even, than the double-breasted.  I do wish that the TPU would lose that silver sleeve braid, though.

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 08:54:28 PM
 Does an ES gung ho officer have more warrior ethos than a safety officer?  Do the air crew members have the most warrior ethos of all?? Inquiring minds want to know..

In answer to the good Colonels question, it is a well known fact that aviators have the largest stones. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 19, 2007, 09:28:20 PM
Did you get this part...

QuoteThe test locations are Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., and its Gunter Annex; Lackland and Randolph Air Force Bases in Texas, and the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado. In addition, the Air Force Honor Guard will put the coat through its paces.

OK, Conspiracy Theorists...have at it!!!

Is design being headed out of Florida?

Quote from: JC004 on July 20, 2007, 01:29:39 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 19, 2007, 09:28:20 PM
Did you get this part...

QuoteThe test locations are Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., and its Gunter Annex; Lackland and Randolph Air Force Bases in Texas, and the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado. In addition, the Air Force Honor Guard will put the coat through its paces.

OK, Conspiracy Theorists...have at it!!!

Is design being headed out of Florida?

I don't know, but I did hear that it was being transported in a black van- traveling at a high rate of speed.

Quote from: aveighter on July 20, 2007, 01:27:56 AM

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 08:54:28 PM
 Does an ES gung ho officer have more warrior ethos than a safety officer?  Do the air crew members have the most warrior ethos of all?? Inquiring minds want to know..

In answer to the good Colonels question, it is a well known fact that aviators have the largest stones. 

Hey, long time no read.  How've you been?

Maybe the resolution on my monitor isn't sensitive enough, but the 'heritage' jacket did not look all that different from the present one.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 20, 2007, 04:28:44 AM
Maybe the resolution on my monitor isn't sensitive enough, but the 'heritage' jacket did not look all that different from the present one.

You smoking crack again?  Click on the full image.

Is it still 2007? The impression I get from that coat is...... I wanna say 1942? Hmm. Is that coat going to be something that CAP will consider? I don't want to give Vanguard another $180 for a service coat that will show up about two months from the time I order it.

Of original two uniforms that were presented, I actually prefered the Mitchell heritage one (that's the chocker collar).  However, I do not believe that most CAP members have the physique to compliment that cut.  The Hap Arnold Heritage uniform show in that link it altered from the intial one, with it's smaller lapels, which make it more complimentary for females and the typical AF personnel.

I have always prefered the previous service coat as it is more fitted and structured.  Two things I think are important in military style uniforms.  You put on a uniform with those characteristics and instantly you walk a few inches taller.

The only thing that I do not like about this uniform is the belt.  I think that it is very uncomplimentary.  In all honesty it looks like they took the all weather coat belt and put it on this one.

Overall I like it.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 20, 2007, 12:14:35 PM
...However, I do not believe that most CAP members have the physique to compliment that cut....

Cadet: grows upwards
Senior Member: grows outwards

Just what we needed, another uniform change..........

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on July 20, 2007, 03:06:49 PM
Just what we needed, another uniform change..........

Everyone remain calm!  :)  This isn't going to be phased in for AF wear for some time yet, as it's just to the wear test stage.  There may be some more changes made to it based on the wear test, which would delay it even further for the AF.  Phase-in for CAP wear is still many years away, and mandatory wear for CAP is even farther off. 

But that doesn't prevent this from becoming the most active thread in this post.

Gentleman and Ladies, to change the topic for only a minute, I believe we have found our contact for the in-state nominations for the Admiralty for the Navy of the Great State of Nebraska for those of you who missed the former opportunity, (See Above Post from Lt.Col. Kirwin (NEBOOM)), and I bet he will nominate you if asked nicely..Do not touch your knobs or the ones on your computer, I will now return you to your regularly scheduled Heritage Coat Discussion..

Quote from: capchiro on July 20, 2007, 03:27:26 PM
Gentleman and Ladies, to change the topic for only a minute, I believe we have found our contact for the in-state nominations for the Admiralty for the Navy of the Great State of Nebraska for those of you who missed the former opportunity, (See Above Post from Lt.Col. Kirwan (NEBOOM)), and I bet he will nominate you if asked nicely..Do not touch your knobs or the ones on your computer, I will now return you to your regularly scheduled Heritage Coat Discussion..

LOL!   ;D

I don't even have one of those for myself, and I've lived here nearly all my life!  And it looks like all you "out of staters" have been doing just fine keeping the Governor's office occupied churning out certificates!  :D

(please move along, there's nothing for you to see here...)

Quote from: aveighter on July 20, 2007, 01:27:56 AM

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 08:54:28 PM
 Does an ES gung ho officer have more warrior ethos than a safety officer?  Do the air crew members have the most warrior ethos of all?? Inquiring minds want to know..

In answer to the good Colonels question, it is a well known fact that aviators have the largest stones. 

I thought it was watches...

Quote from: JC004 on July 20, 2007, 04:37:35 AM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 20, 2007, 04:28:44 AM
Maybe the resolution on my monitor isn't sensitive enough, but the 'heritage' jacket did not look all that different from the present one.

You smoking crack again?  Click on the full image.

Don't you mean "still"??

Anyway, that comment was after viewing full image....like I said, I've only got a small monitor (maybe 15 inch, I don't recall)

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 20, 2007, 05:44:05 PM
...like I said, I've only got a small monitor (maybe 15 inch, I don't recall)

Who said size doesn't matter.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 20, 2007, 01:38:29 AM

Quote from: JC004 on July 20, 2007, 01:29:39 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 19, 2007, 09:28:20 PM
Did you get this part...

QuoteThe test locations are Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., and its Gunter Annex; Lackland and Randolph Air Force Bases in Texas, and the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado. In addition, the Air Force Honor Guard will put the coat through its paces.

OK, Conspiracy Theorists...have at it!!!

Is design being headed out of Florida?

I don't know, but I did hear that it was being transported in a black van- traveling at a high rate of speed.

Lets just hope the van doesnt roll over at a high rate of speed. Someone might have to disregard their own safety and well-being to assist the occupants of the van.

Quote from: capchiro on July 20, 2007, 03:27:26 PM
Gentleman and Ladies, to change the topic for only a minute, I believe we have found our contact for the in-state nominations for the Admiralty for the Navy of the Great State of Nebraska for those of you who missed the former opportunity, (See Above Post from Lt.Col. Kirwin (NEBOOM)), and I bet he will nominate you if asked nicely..Do not touch your knobs or the ones on your computer, I will now return you to your regularly scheduled Heritage Coat Discussion..

As a member who has received an Admiralty from the Great State of Nebraska (1990) for services rendered to the state, I find it greatly offensive to see so many exceptional individuals, who willingly give their time, energy and funds in service to our country to diminish their service and integrity through self-nomination for this honor.

While the honor may be considered a gag to some, I can assure you it isn't for those of us who have received the accolade via the proper form.

Quote from: flyerthom on July 20, 2007, 05:36:21 PM

Quote from: aveighter on July 20, 2007, 01:27:56 AM

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 08:54:28 PM
Does an ES gung ho officer have more warrior ethos than a safety officer?  Do the air crew members have the most warrior ethos of all?? Inquiring minds want to know..

In answer to the good Colonels question, it is a well known fact that aviators have the largest stones. 

I thought it was watches...

Actually, no one knows that aviators have the stones because generally their wives have possession of them at any given time.

Yes, ES Officers do have the biggest stones, we just dont tie them to a red and yellow scarf and wear them around our necks. HooAh!

As someone who now maintains a shaved head after living for 2 years as a Buddhist monk, I can tell you that the warrior ethos has nothing to do with warfare. It has to do with character. It has to do with tradition and the pride that a "warrior" takes in a job well done and does not concern himself with how he looks to others but rather how he is of service to his fellow man. It isnt about medals, but that the medals represented that the warrior put others before himself. It has to do with a quiet, calm spirit, a keen mind and the ability to meet any challenge. The warrior ethos is possessed by those who stand for those who have fallen and serve that others might live.

I emphatically recommend the book "The Path of the Warrior" by Chogyam Trungpa...a Buddhist meditation master and departed teacher. Venerable Trungpa as well as my precious spiritual teacher who recently passed away in Burma achieved the goal of the warrior while sitting quietly and mindfully playing their rightful role in the universe. And yes, I was really was a Buddhist monk, and yes, we discussed the warrior ethos long before it became a military catch phrase.

Quote from: CAPOfficer on July 20, 2007, 05:57:26 PM

Quote from: capchiro on July 20, 2007, 03:27:26 PM
Gentleman and Ladies, to change the topic for only a minute, I believe we have found our contact for the in-state nominations for the Admiralty for the Navy of the Great State of Nebraska for those of you who missed the former opportunity, (See Above Post from Lt.Col. Kirwin (NEBOOM)), and I bet he will nominate you if asked nicely..Do not touch your knobs or the ones on your computer, I will now return you to your regularly scheduled Heritage Coat Discussion..

As a member who has received an Admiralty from the Great State of Nebraska (1990) for services rendered to the state, I find it greatly offensive to see so many exceptional individuals, who willingly give their time, energy and funds in service to our country to diminish their service and integrity through self-nomination for this honor.

While the honor may be considered a gag to some, I can assure you it isn't for those of us who have received the accolade via the proper form.

Please take any further comments over to the admiralty threads so we can keep this one on track. Thanks

I believe the warrior ethos that the Air Force is looking at is a similar concept to the Army's. The Army's "warrior ethos" is:

"I will always place the mission first,
I will never accept defeat,
I will never quit,
I will never leave a fallen comrade"

If you ask any soldier what the warrior ethos is, that's what they'll tell you. It's part of the Soldier's Creed, and Army doctrine.

I am kind of interested in that book, though. Something that addresses a person's character is always enlightening. A book I would recommend is "Lonely Soldier" by Adam Harmon. He was an American that served in the Israeli Army. More than just being a soldier, there are some serious lessons on dedication, and hard work.

AHH...an actual wear test....how intelligent.  I think the wear test for the TPU was done in TP's basement.

As for this service coat......I think it's fine except for the belt.  They have got to loose the belt.   Belts just don't work as Kach said for those pushing the envelope on the weight standards.  While I am within the weight standards, I still don't have a physique that would look complimentary with that goofy belt.

Quote from: Smokey on July 20, 2007, 06:50:14 PM
AHH...an actual wear test....how intelligent.  I think the wear test for the TPU was done in TP's basement.

As for this service coat......I think it's fine except for the belt.  They have got to loose the belt.   Belts just don't work as Kach said for those pushing the envelope on the weight standards.  While I am within the weight standards, I still don't have a physique that would look complimentary with that goofy belt.

Let's just rememeber that these are USAF service coats (being tested by the USAF) to be worn by folks that, at least in theory, would be far from exceeding the standards.  Now, for CAP, should they adopt these, that might be another issue.

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 20, 2007, 06:57:35 PM

Quote from: Smokey on July 20, 2007, 06:50:14 PM
AHH...an actual wear test....how intelligent.  I think the wear test for the TPU was done in TP's basement.

As for this service coat......I think it's fine except for the belt.  They have got to loose the belt.   Belts just don't work as Kach said for those pushing the envelope on the weight standards.  While I am within the weight standards, I still don't have a physique that would look complimentary with that goofy belt.

Let's just rememeber that these are USAF service coats (being tested by the USAF) to be worn by folks that, at least in theory, would be far from exceeding the standards.  Now, for CAP, should they adopt these, that might be another issue.

The only physiques that look good in uniforms with belts belong to 23 year old USMC Lance Cpls.

I'd be first in line for one of these - the only questions will be whether I'll drop the big bucks for the fancy version or not.

I've missed my old Service Dress since I had to hang it up for the "business suit."  I'm good for another 12 years or so, so I'll get some use out of it.

Point of Order:  "Lose the belt" means you are going to discard it, while "loose the belt" means you are going to let it out a notch or two.  While losing the belt would almost certainly be against regs, loosing the belt might just as well be written into 39-1.

My spelling error.... :)....Lose it, dump it, get rid of it.........speck check didn't catch that for obvious reasons.......

Quote from: Smokey on July 20, 2007, 06:50:14 PMAs for this service coat......I think it's fine except for the belt.  They have got to loose the belt.   Belts just don't work as Kach said for those pushing the envelope on the weight standards.  While I am within the weight standards, I still don't have a physique that would look complimentary with that goofy belt.

If you're over a few pounds, then you pull the belt tighter. That should in turn make you appear a little slimmer.

;D

Or else you look like one of those balloon animals thats been twisted in the middle...

:D

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 20, 2007, 05:44:05 PM

Quote from: JC004 on July 20, 2007, 04:37:35 AM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 20, 2007, 04:28:44 AM
Maybe the resolution on my monitor isn't sensitive enough, but the 'heritage' jacket did not look all that different from the present one.

You smoking crack again?  Click on the full image.

Don't you mean "still"??

Anyway, that comment was after viewing full image....like I said, I've only got a small monitor (maybe 15 inch, I don't recall)

15"?!  Who does that?!  It's got the different cut, lapels, pockets, belt, and epaulets.  Wonder if the belt will stay or not...maybe we should take bets.   :)

Egad, I miss the old silver tans.

Quote from: Grumpy on July 21, 2007, 09:38:53 PM
Egad, I miss the old silver tans.

Hey, Olde Fart, want some cheeze with that whine? You miss nickel beer, too!

What, am I dating myself?  That was the best lookin' uniform the Air Force ever had.  Rock Hudson looked looked terrific wearing it in "Strategic Air Command".  Or was it Gathering of Eagles?   ;D

Quote from: Grumpy on July 22, 2007, 06:51:06 AM
What, am I dating myself?  That was the best lookin' uniform the Air Force ever had.  Rock Hudson looked looked terrific wearing it in "Strategic Air Command".  Or was it Gathering of Eagles?   ;D

Jimmy Stewart was in Stragic Air Command.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/Stategic_Air_Command_%28film%29.jpg/200px-Stategic_Air_Command_%28film%29.jpg)

And there are the Silver Tans!!!

Gee, at least I got the name of the movie right.  I didn't mean to slight General Stewart.  Rock was in one AF movie where he wore the tans (I hope).   ;D

Quote from: Grumpy on July 22, 2007, 06:51:06 AM
What, am I dating myself?  That was the best lookin' uniform the Air Force ever had.  Rock Hudson looked looked terrific wearing it in "Strategic Air Command".  Or was it Gathering of Eagles?   ;D

Hey, I wore those WIWAC, too. So there!  :P

I checked IMDB, Rock Hudson wore the uniform in "A Gathering of Eagles", playing a wing commander!

Grumpy is an olde fart...I can personally attest to it ...ain't that right Grumpy...(remember NCCF)

Hark!  Back in the days of yore I had the moniker "Senior Grump" on my filing cabinet.
Who is this person from my mysterious past, he asks?  Is it Brian Stover?

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 22, 2007, 04:41:09 PM
I checked IMDB, Rock Hudson wore the uniform in "A Gathering of Eagles", playing a wing commander!

Those were the short-sleeved 505's Rock Hudson was wearing in "A Gathering of Eagles".   I don't remember the silvertans being worn in that movie at all.  On the other hand Jimmy Stewart, Frank Lovejoy and others did wear the silvertans quite an bit in "Strategic Air Command". Very different uniform.