CAP Talk

It seems really obvious to me as a new member but I will ask the question anyhow.

Has an orange uniform (flight suits and BDU style) been seriously advanced for consideration? We are in the search and rescue business and emergency services. We are not trying to hide but are trying to be seen, so we should be wearing uniforms that make us easy to see. CAPM-39 figure 2-17 note 10 requires an orange vest be worn with the BDUs for ground teams. I would suggest a bright orange colored nomex flight suit with white on blue insignia and something similar for the ground team uniforms. And on the back of the uniforms, in large capital letters "CIVIL AIR PATROL - EMERGENCY SERVICES".

I was on a wing exercise mission a few weeks ago and I believe that the Coast Guard Aux pilots were wearing orange and I thought that it made a lot of sense.

Your comments?

--Nomex

It has been proposed, but not seriously.

Orange flight suits used to be optional, but I don't think they are anymore.

We certainly would never be confused with the Air Force.

We MAY, however, be confused with clients of the various correctional institutions, and frankly, I'd rather people confuse me with the Air Force.

Put "CAP" on the back?  You forget that CAP is a better-kept secret than the Manhattan Project.

"Correctional Agency Prisoner?" 

NEVER!!!

Well, it would sure beat parading around in the woods during hunting season in camoflage green or in the dark in navy blue...

I don't think orange uniforms should be used for GT, but I do believe that the blue BDU should be required.  Camouflage is horrible for SAR, even if the wearer is wearing an orange vest.  The idea is to be seen, so you don't become a victim yourself.  Wearing an orange vest with a BDU for SAR is like being a tree in a forest with a little bit of orange painted on it.  The odds of being found are a lot less.    

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 18, 2007, 07:48:31 PM
Well, it would sure beat parading around in the woods during hunting season in camoflage green or in the dark in navy blue...

Or you not wearing the mandatory orange vest? The one that is required when you're doing field operations?

Quote from: 12211985 on July 18, 2007, 07:54:31 PM
I don't think orange uniforms should be used for GT, but I do believe that the blue BDU should be required.  Camouflage is horrible for SAR, even if the wearer is wearing an orange vest.  The idea is to be seen, so you don't become a victim yourself.  Wearing an orange vest with a BDU for SAR is like being a tree in a forest with a little bit of orange painted on it.  The odds of being found are a lot less.    

Sounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2007, 07:57:36 PMSounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

Unless, of course, you choose to wear the vest underneath gobs of OD green webgear and an Alice or MOLLE pack.  Kind of defeats the purpose...

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2007, 07:57:36 PMSounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

That's not the point.  Camo for SAR is a bad choice, even if an orange vest is worn.  Blue shows up better.  What if you're in a position where the vest is hidden?  What if all your webgrear is hiding the vest?  The camo is going to hide you in the foliage.  Blue, however, won't.    

I say blue BDUs only for GT, and bright yellow vests instead of orange.  

Quote from: 12211985 on July 18, 2007, 08:08:22 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2007, 07:57:36 PMSounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

That's not the point.  Camo for SAR is a bad choice, even if an orange vest is worn.  Blue shows up better.  What if you're in a position where the vest is hidden?  The camo is going to hide you in the foliage.  Blue, however, won't.    

I say blue BDUs only for GT, and bright yellow vests instead of orange.  

What position are you going to in where the vest is hidden, but you can see the rest? Besides, it's dark blue. It's also a scientific fact that the color blue is the most difficult for the human eye to register. And currently, the US military, in general, doesn't use any camouflage that's 100 percent effective in any environment anyway. You're not going to get lost in the woods, unless you're trying to.

Bright yellow vests I would agree with. As long as they're ANSI type vests (which means retina searing lime colors, essentially). They work better at night too.

Quote from: Dragoon on July 18, 2007, 08:08:00 PM
Unless, of course, you choose to wear the vest underneath gobs of OD green webgear and an Alice or MOLLE pack.  Kind of defeats the purpose...

Which is kinda stupid to do. That's like saying "No-one will lose sight of me! I'm wearing my bright orange underwear!"

You may think it's an out there statement, but I've known a few geniuses that believed it.

In the air, as a scanner, I have easily pick out a line of orange vest walking in the woods.   On the ground in my BDU's I wear an orange vest, and even under my ALICE gear it can be seen. 

Personally, I think the BDU's are fine.  If you are trying to be found, a small bit of orange still stands out.  To be safe, just keep that signal mirror with you, as those are amazing easy to see from the air.

When it comes to looks, I think the BDUs and sage flight suits look professional, and helps CAP members standout as an organized, possibly even trained, group of people.

Hey, Smitty, check out the slides that are part of the aircrew training materials. A couple of them have aerial shots of GT folks, and the guys in the orange vests show up really well. And, the folks in the camo BDUs show up, too, but not as well. Concealment depends on more than the clothing you're wearing.

Quote from: sschwab on July 18, 2007, 08:16:33 PM
In the air, as a scanner, I have easily pick out a line of orange vest walking in the woods.   On the ground in my BDU's I wear an orange vest, and even under my ALICE gear it can be seen.

Many of us have  ditched ALICE for MOLLE or other specialty vests.

At any rate, as an employee of the FL Dept of Corrections, I can assure you that our inmates do not wear orange, they wear blue.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 18, 2007, 08:19:58 PM
And, the folks in the camo BDUs show up, too, but not as well.

Hey SarDragon, that's the point!  How about khaki BDUs?  Shows up perfectly well and are readily available.  Another idea is orange boonie hats - those show up very well from the air.  I have met with at least one mission pilot who can attest to that.

Ground Teams wearing khaki BDUs, yellow ANSI-approved vests, and orange boonie hats - now that would be ideal!  Might not look very military, but certainly would stand out.       

Quote from: SarDragon on July 18, 2007, 08:19:58 PMConcealment depends on more than the clothing you're wearing.

I know.  It also depends on the area around you, and how your clothing stands out against your surroundings.  Tie that in with the weather conditions, and that could either simplify or complicate things.   

Assuming that we would want to wear these horrors, consider cost/availability: Orange BDU's are not on the market (watch some argumentative nit-picker post a link to someone selling them) and I haven't seen an orange flightsuit since the '70's (not counting the cu$tom color$ and applicable price$ available from flightsuits.com)

Point being that neither are available in abundance at your corner Army/Navy Surplus.

But I'm sure that Vanguard could have them in  the proverbial" couple of months." ;D

Somebody found an orange tactical vest, but the cost was something like $275.

The CAWG supplement to CAPM 39-1 authorized a GT uniform consisting of:
(a) Long or short sleeve orange, two pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) Blue CAP Field Uniform trousers.
(c) Dark blue web belt with black subdued buckle (USAF style).
(d) Boots appropriate for conditions. The Ground Team Leader will be the final authority for the suitability of boots.
(e) Outer garments appropriate for weather and safety conditions.
(2) NOTES: Only the following insignia and patches will be worn.
(a) Civil Air Patrol Blue Breast Badge is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag - cloth is worn centered immediately above the right shirt
pocket (only the last name is used).
(c) CAP Aviation Badges and Ground Team Badge.-.Cloth, are worn 1/2 inch
above the "Civil Air Patrol" tape. If both devices are worn, the aviation badge is placed 1/2 inch above the Ground Team Badge.
(d) A cloth Specialty Badge (Communications, EMT, CPR, etc) may be worn
centered on the left shirt pocket.
(e) A unit patch may be worn centered on the right shirt pocket.
(f) The California Wing patch is worn 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left sleeve. See Figure 5-12, below.
(g) The NASAR SARTECH II or OES Search and Rescue patch, with or without
attached tab, may be worn 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the right sleeve.
(3) Insignia NOT authorized on the Ground Team Uniform combination:
(a) Grade insignia.
(b) CAP Lapel/Collar insignia
(c) Military Aviation Badges
(d) Metal insignia.

Let's discuss this on its merits, and stay away from bashing CAWG for having it in the supplement in the first place.

The orange shirts are available at most industrial safety stores, and are commonly called "CalTrans shirts" because of their ubiquity on the highway crews. They are actually more comfortable than a BDU shirt (lighter weight), but are slightly less functional because of the lack of pockets.

Personally, I'm fairly satisfied with the visibility of GT members wearing vests both from the perspective of an aircrew member trying to spot them as well as a ground team member trying to stay in line with others. 

Theoretically wearing orange clothing may slightly increase actual effectiveness, but thats about it.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 18, 2007, 09:05:38 PM
The CAWG supplement to CAPM 39-1 authorized a GT uniform consisting of:
(a) Long or short sleeve orange, two pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) Blue CAP Field Uniform trousers.
(c) Dark blue web belt with black subdued buckle (USAF style).
(d) Boots appropriate for conditions. The Ground Team Leader will be the final authority for the suitability of boots.
(e) Outer garments appropriate for weather and safety conditions.
(2) NOTES: Only the following insignia and patches will be worn.
(a) Civil Air Patrol Blue Breast Badge is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag - cloth is worn centered immediately above the right shirt
pocket (only the last name is used).
(c) CAP Aviation Badges and Ground Team Badge.-.Cloth, are worn 1/2 inch
above the "Civil Air Patrol" tape. If both devices are worn, the aviation badge is placed 1/2 inch above the Ground Team Badge.
(d) A cloth Specialty Badge (Communications, EMT, CPR, etc) may be worn
centered on the left shirt pocket.
(e) A unit patch may be worn centered on the right shirt pocket.
(f) The California Wing patch is worn 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left sleeve. See Figure 5-12, below.
(g) The NASAR SARTECH II or OES Search and Rescue patch, with or without
attached tab, may be worn 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the right sleeve.
(3) Insignia NOT authorized on the Ground Team Uniform combination:
(a) Grade insignia.
(b) CAP Lapel/Collar insignia
(c) Military Aviation Badges
(d) Metal insignia.

Let's discuss this on its merits, and stay away from bashing CAWG for having it in the supplement in the first place.

The orange shirts are available at most industrial safety stores, and are commonly called "CalTrans shirts" because of their ubiquity on the highway crews. They are actually more comfortable than a BDU shirt (lighter weight), but are slightly less functional because of the lack of pockets.

so if you just happen to be in the CAP standart BBDU's and "the ballon goes up" you put on the orange smock, no?

It all sounds strangely attractive, in an Austin Powers sort-of way. . . . .

I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

CAWG has also authorized the orange nomex flightsuit.  A pilot in my squadron has one (custom made). Yes he does stand out !!!!!!!

I think it looks awful......I just can't stand orange flightsuits.

And yes, some inmates in California wear orange jumpsuits.  SO....as Kach sez...I'd rather be mistaken for the AF than an escapee.

Quote from: Smokey on July 18, 2007, 10:28:39 PM
CAWG has also authorized the orange nomex flightsuit.  A pilot in my squadron has one (custom made). Yes he does stand out !!!!!!!

I think it looks awful......I just can't stand orange flightsuits.

And yes, some inmates in California wear orange jumpsuits.  SO....as Kach sez...I'd rather be mistaken for the AF than an escapee.

Once upon a time the Military (except Marines) briefly used orange flightsuits for nontactical use in CONUS, and I remember that USCG had them for a time. 

That was then, this is now...

Note "custom made:"  until DOD, HLS or LE starts buying them in bulk, it's just not commercially viable, so they will be expensive.

Operational CAP-wear is more about what's available that what's fashionable.

Hi-viz vest should suffice for our ops.  For air, it's not the color of you flightsuit, rather than the range of your ELT/PLB.

and a reflective 'space blanket' is only $5 and stows anywhere.

Nomex Maximus- Enjoy: there's nothing like the feel of a new-out-of-the-bag flightsuit.  For keep that like-new look & feel, woolite & hang-dry.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2007, 08:13:51 PM

Quote from: 12211985 on July 18, 2007, 08:08:22 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2007, 07:57:36 PMSounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

That's not the point.  Camo for SAR is a bad choice, even if an orange vest is worn.  Blue shows up better.  What if you're in a position where the vest is hidden?  The camo is going to hide you in the foliage.  Blue, however, won't.   

I say blue BDUs only for GT, and bright yellow vests instead of orange. 

What position are you going to in where the vest is hidden, but you can see the rest? Besides, it's dark blue. It's also a scientific fact that the color blue is the most difficult for the human eye to register. And currently, the US military, in general, doesn't use any camouflage that's 100 percent effective in any environment anyway. You're not going to get lost in the woods, unless you're trying to.

Bright yellow vests I would agree with. As long as they're ANSI type vests (which means retina searing lime colors, essentially). They work better at night too.

That blinding lime green is called International Yellow and that one you can see for miles over open ground.

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 18, 2007, 10:20:26 PM
I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

We have 5 ems aircrews in my city and none of them wear orange...I have worked with aircrews all over the country and have never seen one that does. Theres no point. Furthermore, if you were carrying a patient with a head injury or seizures, its well documented that loud noises, sudden movements and bright colors can trigger seizures. The only time I have seen flight crews in orange is when they are out on the LZ helping to package the patient, never on board.

Quote from: 12211985 on July 18, 2007, 08:08:22 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2007, 07:57:36 PMSounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

That's not the point.  Camo for SAR is a bad choice, even if an orange vest is worn.  Blue shows up better.  What if you're in a position where the vest is hidden?  What if all your webgrear is hiding the vest?  The camo is going to hide you in the foliage.  Blue, however, won't.   

I say blue BDUs only for GT, and bright yellow vests instead of orange. 

1. The blue BDUs dont show up any better than the camos. The shade (called LAPD Blue by Propper) also disappears in underbrush, especially in low light, so thats not really valid.

2. If your vest is hidden by your web gear, then you are too "high speed" for your own good and are wearing too much web gear.

I do agree the International Yellow are better because over open ground they have a longer visibility range than orange, especially with the reflective stripes on them.

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 03:08:32 AM

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 18, 2007, 10:20:26 PM
I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

We have 5 ems aircrews in my city and none of them wear orange...I have worked with aircrews all over the country and have never seen one that does. Theres no point. Furthermore, if you were carrying a patient with a head injury or seizures, its well documented that loud noises, sudden movements and bright colors can trigger seizures. The only time I have seen flight crews in orange is when they are out on the LZ helping to package the patient, never on board.

As a former flight paramedic for a hospital-based HEMS program, I know that we had an affiliated program that had their flight crews wear blaze orange flighsuits. To my knowledge there were no issues of malpractice associated with the color. In fact, for a while we wore similarly bright (red) flight uniforms as well.

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 03:12:40 AMI do agree the International Yellow are better because over open ground they have a longer visibility range than orange, especially with the reflective stripes on them.

Question: is there anything stopping ground teams from wearing the International Yellow vests? 

I know that bright orange boonie caps are not allowed per the 39-1, but they are a smart idea, too. 

Quote from: 12211985 on July 19, 2007, 03:19:02 AMQuestion: is there anything stopping ground teams from wearing the International Yellow vests? 

I know that bright orange boonie caps are not allowed per the 39-1, but they are a smart idea, too. 

Pubs, and insurance. That's probably about it. The pub can be changed easily, and it wouldn't take too much to convince our insurance carrier that International Yellow is actually more visible.

I remember that some aircrews in Alaska hated orange in the fall. Half the leaves are the same color, and you couldn't discern a body from 500 ft from the foliage.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 19, 2007, 03:28:29 AMPubs, and insurance. That's probably about it. The pub can be changed easily, and it wouldn't take too much to convince our insurance carrier that International Yellow is actually more visible.

You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest.   

Quote from: 12211985 on July 19, 2007, 03:32:35 AM
You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest. 

It could. Not wearing any designated uniform properly (meaning with all authorized and required insignia) could result in no coverage. It's nitpicky, but it's legal. Even the military has been known to charge for medical care when the incident wasn't in line of duty or basically resulted from doing something that you just weren't supposed to be doing.

As for choosing, you may not have that option. Whoever is in charge of you may tell you that since you're not wearing authorized gear, you don't go on the mission. And there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it.

Quote from: Chaplaindon on July 19, 2007, 03:15:20 AM

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 03:08:32 AM

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 18, 2007, 10:20:26 PM
I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

We have 5 ems aircrews in my city and none of them wear orange...I have worked with aircrews all over the country and have never seen one that does. Theres no point. Furthermore, if you were carrying a patient with a head injury or seizures, its well documented that loud noises, sudden movements and bright colors can trigger seizures. The only time I have seen flight crews in orange is when they are out on the LZ helping to package the patient, never on board.

As a former flight paramedic for a hospital-based HEMS program, I know that we had an affiliated program that had their flight crews wear blaze orange flighsuits. To my knowledge there were no issues of malpractice associated with the color. In fact, for a while we wore similarly bright (red) flight uniforms as well.

If you re-read my post you will see that I never mentioned malpractice issues, simply that it has been documented by the AMA, JEMS, etc that bright colors, rapid movements, loud noises, strobing lights (the reason that if at all possible a post-ictal patient is not transported code 3 by ground) and even the stobe-like effect of a spinning rotor can trigger status epilepticus in a patient with a history of generalized tonic clonic seizure, especially acute onset. As a respiratory therapist/flight EMT I have flown with two seperate HEMS (often also called HETS for helicopter evacuation and transport services) who wore neutral or darkly colored flight suits specifically because many trauma patients tend to panic in flight and as with seizures it has been shown that sensory over stimulation can cause the panic to become intensified necessitating paralytic assisted intubation simply because you cannot have someone thrashing around in the back of a BK-117 at 175 miles an hour unless you get your kicks auto rotating out of the sky. As a side note, when I work in the Canadian oilfields and have to rapel out of a chopper to pick up a patient, we cover their eyes with a sleep mask so that they arent sickened or frightened by looking up into the spinning rotor (also helps keeps them from getting blasted with down wash).

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 19, 2007, 03:41:41 AM

Quote from: 12211985 on July 19, 2007, 03:32:35 AM
You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest. 

It could. Not wearing any designated uniform properly (meaning with all authorized and required insignia) could result in no coverage. It's nitpicky, but it's legal. Even the military has been known to charge for medical care when the incident wasn't in line of duty or basically resulted from doing something that you just weren't supposed to be doing.

As for choosing, you may not have that option. Whoever is in charge of you may tell you that since you're not wearing authorized gear, you don't go on the mission. And there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it.

I don't think there would be many reasonable people who would go to the wall over the difference between yellow and orange.  It reminds me of a hit-skip accident where the witness described a car as "Tan" but the defense attorney produced pictures showing that the car was "Clearly gray."  The plate matched within 1 digit that the witness got wrong (He read it as a "O" or "Zero," it was actually a "Q").  The defendant got out 60 days later.

Quote from: 12211985 on July 19, 2007, 03:32:35 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 19, 2007, 03:28:29 AMPubs, and insurance. That's probably about it. The pub can be changed easily, and it wouldn't take too much to convince our insurance carrier that International Yellow is actually more visible.

You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest.   

Actually if the IC says he wants you in a blaze orange teddy from Fredricks of Hollywood, that is the uniform of the day and you can be ordered to stand down and return to mission base. That is why he is the Incident COMMANDER...He Who Must be Obeyed. Its good to be king...I once commandered an elementary school as an operations base during a mass casualty incident-bus vs train. It had everything we needed: desks, chairs, tables, rooms for the different teams, comms, food, a kitchen, bathrooms, showers in the gym and the concrete playground made a dandy LZ.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 19, 2007, 04:21:03 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 19, 2007, 03:41:41 AM

Quote from: 12211985 on July 19, 2007, 03:32:35 AM
You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest. 

It could. Not wearing any designated uniform properly (meaning with all authorized and required insignia) could result in no coverage. It's nitpicky, but it's legal. Even the military has been known to charge for medical care when the incident wasn't in line of duty or basically resulted from doing something that you just weren't supposed to be doing.

As for choosing, you may not have that option. Whoever is in charge of you may tell you that since you're not wearing authorized gear, you don't go on the mission. And there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it.

I don't think there would be many reasonable people who would go to the wall over the difference between yellow and orange.  It reminds me of a hit-skip accident where the witness described a car as "Tan" but the defense attorney produced pictures showing that the car was "Clearly gray."  The plate matched within 1 digit that the witness got wrong (He read it as a "O" or "Zero," it was actually a "Q").  The defendant got out 60 days later.

Actually, depending where in the country, or world, you are, there can be a difference in meaning between blaze orange and international yellow. IY usually designates fire, EMS, sometimes police while orange often indicates technical rescue, utility workers on scene to shut down power, road crews during an accident, etc. Not always the case, but it can sometimes make a difference. Besides, why are we having this discussion...orange is CAPS regs so orange it is. Whats the problem. Even in the dark, if you have safety orange with reflective stripes, a fairly decent candlepower flashlight is going to bounce of that thing just fine from a very long distance. Im also for (unlike combat troops) us wearing things that rattle and clank: dog tags, tin mess cups even little bells on the boots, all of which I have done on SARs. The more senses you can stimulate to let your lost person know you are out there and headed their way the better they can assist you in getting found by hollaring, popping a flare or cyalume, using an emergency whistle, etc.

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 04:34:39 AM...Im also for (unlike combat troops) us wearing things that rattle and clank: dog tags, tin mess cups even little bells on the boots, all of which I have done on SARs. The more senses you can stimulate to let your lost person know you are out there and headed their way the better they can assist you in getting found by hollaring, popping a flare or cyalume, using an emergency whistle, etc.

You know, that's one of those simple things that no one ever thinks of.

If I were looking at night, I'd probably figure out someway to affix a Firefly to my headgear. Blowing a whistle every now and then would probably not be a bad idea either.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 19, 2007, 05:33:38 AM

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 04:34:39 AM...Im also for (unlike combat troops) us wearing things that rattle and clank: dog tags, tin mess cups even little bells on the boots, all of which I have done on SARs. The more senses you can stimulate to let your lost person know you are out there and headed their way the better they can assist you in getting found by hollaring, popping a flare or cyalume, using an emergency whistle, etc.

You know, that's one of those simple things that no one ever thinks of.

If I were looking at night, I'd probably figure out someway to affix a Firefly to my headgear. Blowing a whistle every now and then would probably not be a bad idea either.

You mean the SMWOG actually had an idea someone liked.  I think I may faint. yeah, it could get a little annoying, but during a night search in the Sandia Mountains  we wore small christmas bells, two on each boot, up near the top. Just dont do like a cadet in my squadron recently did and wear a 60 hour battery emergency strobe on your LBV. He got to play with it for about 20 minutes before we took it away from him. Also, does anyone out there actually wear dogtags...I had been thinking of getting some made up as gifts for the members of my squadron if I could get their blood types. I know the cadets would love them. I have actually seen a set of tags in a surplus that had belonged to I dont know who that said, Type Unknown, Use Universal on the blood type line. I was thinking of getting them printed with name, CAPID, blood type and religion.

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 18, 2007, 10:20:26 PM
I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

Thats why as a deputy you should have taken the personal initiative to wear either reflective or glow tape, or stick a cyalume in your hat band. And I prefer to think of us as "Unpaid Professionals." Or mercenary if youre a pilot  ;)

The Blaze orange flight suit was standard issue before Vietnam, made lots of sense if down in any environment, pre ELT days the aircrew wanted all the extra help they could get.

However A fat CAP guy in an orange flight suit does rather make him look like a Pumpkin

Regarding visibility, here are sections of some studies. These are all copied directly from the reports so that I wouldn't screw something up.
---------------------
In a large-scale survey that MN DOT conducted at the Minnesota State Fair in 1990, four mannequins were displayed, each with a different, fluorescent-colored jumpsuit [some sources say vests] on. Fair attendees were asked which mannequin appeared "the most visible" to them. The results are as follows: fluorescent yellow: 5,796, fluorescent green: 2,706, fluorescent orange: 2,231 and fluorescent pink: 2,017.

Of the 119 color-blind voters, 115 selected the fluorescent yellow.
----------
A more recent study, "High Visibility Clothing for Daytime Use in Work Zones," investigated 11 colors: 8 fluorescent, 2 non-fluorescent, and 1 semi-fluorescent. Subjects were asked to indicate the point at which they were able to detect the clothing in four different work zone situations. The study concluded that the fluorescent red-orange vest was the most conspicuous. The study did note that motorists may have become accustomed to seeing workers in orange vests and, therefore, associated an orange object with safety clothing.

The study recommended that agencies seeking an alternative to fluorescent red-orange vests should consider fluorescent yellow-green vests. This color appears to work well in work zones, and other research has identified it as performing well in low light and hazy conditions.

[Other studies noted that orange blended in with construction vehicles, barrels, cones and signs, and stated that yellow-green was better because of better contrast with all the surrounding orange.]
----------------
From another study: Small areas of fluorescent material have relatively little value.  Motion, however, augments the effect; bright colors worn on arms or legs or even the head may allow smaller areas to impart some measure of conspicuity.
-----------------------
And since we're talking ground teams and crashed pilots out in the woods, this is from a report on flagging (not clothing) by the US Forest Service.

The 16 most widely used colors and styles of flagging ribbon available were evaluated in deciduous and conifer forests in low light and bright light. Participants in the evaluations included individuals who were able to see the full color spectrum as well as individuals who were severely colorblind. Color blindness affects about 10 percent of the population.

Our field evaluations indicated that hot-pink flagging was the easiest color to see and was visible at the greatest distance. Lime-green flagging showed up poorly to participants with normal color vision, but colorblind participants saw the lime-green flagging best.

The other colors most visible to participants with normal color vision were oranges, blues, and candy striped, in that order.

[These results conflict with the Minnesota tests, but perhaps the reason hot-pink showed up best was that it had the best contrast against the forest.  Or it may be that the Minnesota viewers were repulsed by someone in a hot-pink jumpsuit.]
------------------------
All the studies stated that reflective bands on the arms and legs, in addition to the torso, were crucial to night-time recognition.  Movement was also very beneficial.

QuoteIf I were looking at night, I'd probably figure out someway to affix a Firefly to my headgear. Blowing a whistle every now and then would probably not be a bad idea either.

And your team mates will kill you for using something as bright as a Firefly.  However, wearing less intense strobes, lightsticks and other low intensity lighting is quite common in ground SAR.

Blowing whistles is a standard SAR technique (sound sweeps).  To keep other teams from being confused by constant whistle blasts (was that another team or the subject blowing the whistle) base will often coordinate the whistle blasts.  Vehicles using PAs or sirens also works.  One problem is that when the sound is constantly coming from different directions, the subject can get confused as to which direction is the help.

Mike

I havent been in long enough to study the regs on the use of flares. When i was doing SAR in NM (where hikers always carry at least pencil flares despite the dry desert vegetation and almost constant fire hazard) and often some carry larger flares.  We had one search at night where we stopped the line  because I thought I heard something about 400 meters to our 12 o'clock. I popped a bright green flare several hundred feet in the air (we were using flare guns). About 20 seconds later of total silence, a red flare came up over the thin tree line to our front. We then got the park service on the radio and asked permission to set off something we nicknamed the midnight sun. A huge illuminating flare that will light up a large area in total darkness for about 5 minutes. As this thing turned night into day, we saw our lost person, broken tib-fib and all, sitting in the sand in the arroyo almost exactly 400 meters to our front. She had been leaning slightly behind a rock and was not flashlight visible. We assembled the stretcher frame, SAM splinted that leg, our corpsman started a bag of ringers lactate, fed her a power bar and carried her out about two miles to a waiting ambulance. She had been lost for three days, was extremely sunburned, which I treated with burn gel as the rest of the team carried her and dressed her burns and by the time we got her to the ambulance she was 100 percent better than when we found her. Had it not been for  the midnight sun, we could well have walked right by her because of where she was sitting. She said she thought she heard us but was afraid it might be an animal so didnt use her whistle. And we managed not to set the Jemez desert on fire because we found the smoldering remnants of our flare and doused it with the extinguisher i was carrying.

SarMedTech:
Just so you know, Blood Types are not allowed on CAP dog tags.  Not sure of the reg, but we are not supposed to have medical info on person.  I know this doesn't make sense, I know that the military DOES have BT on the DT.  That's just the regs.

^I didn't know CAP had dog tags...never mind a reg about them. I would be interested to see that regulation.

Since when are we not supposed to have medical information about someone?  Every cadet that joins supplies their medical information, limitations, recent surgeries, insurance, etc.  They also list medications they are taking, etc. 

I am not aware of ANY regulations regarding dogtags in CAP.  The only caveat I would put on about blood types is to make sure you have the right blood type.

I think the blood type thing comes from the old CAP Bookstore...CAPMart.  You could order dog tags from them but the instructions said " NO Blood type". 

Ahh the bookstore...I miss it . Never had a problem and they had a catalog you could hold in your hands.....I miss the Supply Depot too.....but I digress.

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 06:40:23 AM
Also, does anyone out there actually wear dogtags...I had been thinking of getting some made up as gifts for the members of my squadron if I could get their blood types. I know the cadets would love them. I have actually seen a set of tags in a surplus that had belonged to I dont know who that said, Type Unknown, Use Universal on the blood type line. I was thinking of getting them printed with name, CAPID, blood type and religion.

I wear my military ones, mostly just out of habit. I woiuld have blood type on one, for the simple fact that blood is probably going to be one of the first identified needs for any accident victim.

A military compliant one would read:

Last Name
First Name, Middle Initial (or First Initial, Middle Name, like mine do)
Social Security Number
Blood Type
Religious Preference

Nothing against some of the fans, but "Orthodox Jedi" is probably not going to be taken seriously as a religious preference. You may laugh, but there people in the military that actually have that on their dogtags.

Quote from: sardak on July 19, 2007, 09:20:50 AM

QuoteIf I were looking at night, I'd probably figure out someway to affix a Firefly to my headgear. Blowing a whistle every now and then would probably not be a bad idea either.

And your team mates will kill you for using something as bright as a Firefly.  However, wearing less intense strobes, lightsticks and other low intensity lighting is quite common in ground SAR.

Hadn't thought about the brightness factor. I would probably shut it off myself if it was that bright, I'm mildly light sensitive. Anything similar, but not as glaringly bright?

How about one of those little rear lights for bikes? I saw one the other day and thought it would be an interesting ides to maybe put one on the back of a vest or pack. They can be set to strobe fast, slow or steady burn.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 19, 2007, 02:12:12 PM
SarMedTech:
Just so you know, Blood Types are not allowed on CAP dog tags.  Not sure of the reg, but we are not supposed to have medical info on person.  I know this doesn't make sense, I know that the military DOES have BT on the DT.  That's just the regs.

That has to be one of the three stupidest regulations ever. One of the primary purposes of a dog tag is to be able to keep a "serviceman" from bleeding to death when injured by having his blood type there so they dont have to waste and hour typing and cross-matching. I can tell you why they dont allow it. Its because once again, they dont want to be liable if someone has accidentally got the wrong BT on their tag and the transfusion kills them and they are afraid they would get sued. Tell ya what. I wont wear CAPs dog tags, I will wear MY dog tags and they have my blood type on them. If you could find that reg, I would greatly appreciate it. I was not even aware that CAP did DTs, I was just going to go it as a gift for the folks in my Squad. I just wont have them printed with U.S Civil Air Patrol or the members CAPID...just name, religious preference and blood type. Then they are a piece of personal battle rattle that the folks I present them too and they have nothing to do with CAP and CAP cant say anything about it. That really cranks my prop.

Sorry, but I have to say this old catch phrase en re dog tags this occasion...

"I've FALLEN and I can't get up!"

Seriously, blood types might be helpful...provided everyone knows their blood type and indicates it accurately.

Let's say Cadet X (related to "Charlie X" of Star Trek fame), wants to wear some CAP dog tags and goes to have them made.  This Cadet, or CAP Officer, doesn't know his blood type.  So, when asked, decides to "make it up."  Then, one a mission, something goes wrong and the cadet needs blood.  They look at the dog tags with the erroneous blood type and send the poor lad to St. Peter.

That might be why it is not allowed.

However, in that there is to be some sort of CAP Medical track.  One duty might be to accurately type CAP members blood and, issue official dog tags for operational purposes.

Wha'cha think?

(note: this is one of those rare times I identify a problem and provide my version of a solution.)

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 19, 2007, 03:51:43 PM
I am not aware of ANY regulations regarding dogtags in CAP.  The only caveat I would put on about blood types is to make sure you have the right blood type.

Which is as simple as a visit to your family doctors lab. Just tell em you need your blood typed and they can do it in a flash, or at least relatively quickly. Sorry, but nobody is going to tell me what medical information I can wear around my neck and what I cant. I try to stand behind the regs because I believe in them, that they are there for a reason and when I signed up I said I would obey the regs. But not this one. If they want to 2b me for having my own blood type on my own dog tag, they can go right ahead...and then when the hearing happens they can all sit and stare at the floor in embarrasment while the presiding officer chews them a new one. I have been trying to be a little more careful as to what I say on these boards because I know our un-named "guests" and "invisible" folks lurking around reading posts are either at Maxwell or somewhere in Florida or both and I dont want to get booted before i ever get my first butter bar, but this has gone to far. If its true that you are forbidden by the regs to put your BT on the tags that you pay for, that is just a CYA regulation. Besides, the members of my squadron will soon be wearing these little red nylon envelopes on their BDU pistol belts that say "med info" on them and have the officers emergency info, illnesses etc printed on them. Firefighters where them on their turn out gear out here. And Yes, I guess this is a hill i am willing to die on.

OK, let's not go berserk here. Nobody says you can't wear dog tags with your blood type on them.

The Bookstore would not, for whatever reason, sell dog tags with a blood type on them. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 19, 2007, 06:19:52 PMHowever, in that there is to be some sort of CAP Medical track.  One duty might be to accurately type CAP members blood and, issue official dog tags for operational purposes.

Wha'cha think?

Sounds like a pretty [darn] good idea to me. A lot of times, you have to save people from themselves. Although I don't know if we could afford to issue tags, it wouldn't hurt to have someone get their tags checked prior to attending a mission.

Although, in defense of cadets, there are a few seniors that would probably be just as stupid, and just make something up. Severely impaired genius is not entirely the realm of youth.

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 19, 2007, 06:19:52 PM
Sorry, but I have to say this old catch phrase en re dog tags this occasion...

"I've FALLEN and I can't get up!"

Seriously, blood types might be helpful...provided everyone knows their blood type and indicates it accurately.

Let's say Cadet X (related to "Charlie X" of Star Trek fame), wants to wear some CAP dog tags and goes to have them made.  This Cadet, or CAP Officer, doesn't know his blood type.  So, when asked, decides to "make it up."  Then, one a mission, something goes wrong and the cadet needs blood.  They look at the dog tags with the erroneous blood type and send the poor lad to St. Peter.

That might be why it is not allowed.

However, in that there is to be some sort of CAP Medical track.  One duty might be to accurately type CAP members blood and, issue official dog tags for operational purposes.

Wha'cha think?

(note: this is one of those rare times I identify a problem and provide my version of a solution.)

I learned how to type blood when I was in med school and to get it right everytime. Ill do it for free. Besides, if you really dont know, alot of people that make them up for you wont put blood type unless you have a signed note confirming it from your physician, just like in the RM where MEPS types your blood. I bet if you went to the med center at your friendly neighborhood AFB, a med tech would be happy to do it for you. I think the AF might like to see that we are taking responsibilty for out members for a change...that we are looking out for each other. AND, if you dont know your BT, you can always put "Type Unknown- Please Type and Match" or "Type Unknown-Transfuse with Universal" or "Type Unknown-Use FFP." It will probably confuse them more when they get to the religion line on mine and it says "Ordained Theravadan Buddhist Priest--no autopsy"

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 19, 2007, 06:32:42 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 19, 2007, 06:19:52 PMHowever, in that there is to be some sort of CAP Medical track.  One duty might be to accurately type CAP members blood and, issue official dog tags for operational purposes.

Wha'cha think?

Sounds like a pretty [darn] good idea to me. A lot of times, you have to save people from themselves. Although I don't know if we could afford to issue tags, it wouldn't hurt to have someone get their tags checked prior to attending a mission.

Although, in defense of cadets, there are a few seniors that would probably be just as stupid, and just make something up. Severely impaired genius is not entirely the realm of youth.

Its just so easy...go to your countys health department and they will have your type perfectly determined in about 9 minutes after a finger stick.  Its going on my tags.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 19, 2007, 06:29:10 PM
OK, let's not go berserk here. Nobody says you can't wear dog tags with your blood type on them.

The Bookstore would not, for whatever reason, sell dog tags with a blood type on them. Nothing more, nothing less.

I just got riled because someone up the thread said regs say no blood type. Besides, since CAP is a corporation they are really more like bylaws than regs.

I just ran a search through all the electronic regs downloadable from the National wesite. In all of those, there's not a reference to the term "blood type", "ID tag", "identification tag", "dog tag", etc. That's the terms I used, they don't turn anything up pertinent to dog tags.

There may have been in previous regs, but there does not seem to be now.

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 06:41:22 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 19, 2007, 06:32:42 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 19, 2007, 06:19:52 PMHowever, in that there is to be some sort of CAP Medical track.  One duty might be to accurately type CAP members blood and, issue official dog tags for operational purposes.

Wha'cha think?

Sounds like a pretty [darn] good idea to me. A lot of times, you have to save people from themselves. Although I don't know if we could afford to issue tags, it wouldn't hurt to have someone get their tags checked prior to attending a mission.

Although, in defense of cadets, there are a few seniors that would probably be just as stupid, and just make something up. Severely impaired genius is not entirely the realm of youth.

Its just so easy...go to your countys health department and they will have your type perfectly determined in about 9 minutes after a finger stick.  Its going on my tags.

Have the Unit, or Group, Health Services Officer issue permission to have it placed on dog tags based on a competent medical source.

I don't normally wear my dog tags...but, if it is a matter of life and death...I think a small amount of regulation might not be a bad thing here.  Plus, it is a responsibility that an HSO can have that would be meaningful (until CAP ever gets into true Medics).

Quote from: stillamarine on July 19, 2007, 06:13:19 PM
How about one of those little rear lights for bikes? I saw one the other day and thought it would be an interesting ides to maybe put one on the back of a vest or pack. They can be set to strobe fast, slow or steady burn.

That's a good idea. Not too bright, but attention getting. Probably doesn't cost a whole lot either.

From Pg 10 of the last printed CAPMart catalog (2004) item 0919...Dog Tags

It reads....."No blood type or medical information can be printed. Only items that reflect the CAP standards will be allowed." 
Line 1...Name
Line 2...Soc Sec Number
Line 3 Street Address
Line 4 Sate and Zip Code
Line 5 Your Choice  (no Blood Type)

I notice on Vanguard's site it offers only blank dog tags

How do these diatribes start??  I Have never heard or seen a need for a blood transfusion in the field with CAP members.  Number 2 CAP members don't have blood in the field.  Number 3, any place that is capable of doing a blood transfusion can type blood in under 10 minutes and would probably do so even if the DT had blood type on it.  Number 4 CAP Reg's do not permit blood transfusion by CAP members and I am not sure that CAP Reg's allow CAP members to bleed either.  How is that so much discussion can ensue about such a minute nonexistenet part of CAP??  Oh, and by the way, we don't do field trach's either, but, if push came to shove, I would do one.  Do I need to discuss it and confuse others on this board??  So, you can wear dog tags if your little heart desires and there is no such thing as an official CAP dog tag and hopefully if you are found unconscious without any ID or burnt beyond recognition, you will have one of your buddies around to ID you if you don't have your non-official dog tags on.  Gosh, a million and one problems with CAP and we have to keep inventing new ones??  Orange flight suits, yellow and red command scarves, promotion for to new members without waiting six months, come on guys, get with the real program..

In my 24 and 72 gear, i have a little personal "EPIRB" like you see kevin costner slap on cuba goodings helmet after the helo crash. It flashes and lets of a little beep that sounds just like an old electronic flash and it sends out a distress becon readable on...dagnabbit i forgot again..406mhz?  Is that right. It sounds right but doesnt look right. But I spose all you vets know all about the little gadgets since youve chased enough of them.

Okay, that's probably because they didn't want to assume liability for a misprint.  But I wouldn't consider the CAPMART catalog to be the authority on dog tags.

It's funny that it says "CAP standards" however, there are no standards...

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 07:03:59 PM
How do these diatribes start??  I Have never heard or seen a need for a blood transfusion in the field with CAP members.  Number 2 CAP members don't have blood in the field.  Number 3, any place that is capable of doing a blood transfusion can type blood in under 10 minutes and would probably do so even if the DT had blood type on it.  Number 4 CAP Reg's do not permit blood transfusion by CAP members and I am not sure that CAP Reg's allow CAP members to bleed either.  How is that so much discussion can ensue about such a minute nonexistenet part of CAP??  Oh, and by the way, we don't do field trach's either, but, if push came to shove, I would do one.  Do I need to discuss it and confuse others on this board??  So, you can wear dog tags if your little heart desires and there is no such thing as an official CAP dog tag and hopefully if you are found unconscious without any ID or burnt beyond recognition, you will have one of your buddies around to ID you if you don't have your non-official dog tags on.  Gosh, a million and one problems with CAP and we have to keep inventing new ones??  Orange flight suits, yellow and red command scarves, promotion for to new members without waiting six months, come on guys, get with the real program..

Take her easy there doc. Remember your blood pressure. Nobody said anything about transfusing in the field or having blood in the field...I think the closest thing the RM even has is called hemalogue which is a blood substitute which is universal and tricks your heart into thinking it has more blood than it does. And...by the rational you are making, theres no reason for any RM soldier or sailor or airman to have dog tags on. I said all the things you said about how little time it takes to type and cross and that I can even do it myself. As for trachostomies...Im gonna cram down a contraband combitube long before I let you cut open a cadets neck or jam a wide bore needle in his windpipe. My record time for dropping a combitube is 47 seconds...Id have it in and be bagging before you even got your Tom Mix pocket knife out of your 24 pack. Im kidding with you because i respect you very much. I think we are all a little on edge these days...maybe we are waiting for an impeachment or something. Your point about post without points is well taken, but we do still have the 1st amendment last time i checked and its still a semi free country. Doc...you are 2 of the 3 nicest people I know. Semper Vi my friend.

Not unusual here to stray off topic. Back to the original question: Have orange uniforms been proposed for CAP use?

I imagine we're talking at the National level, not a wings separate use of them.

Wow.

Amazing the people who get upset about a regulation that doesn't even exist.

I have no idea why the blood type is on the dog tag.  I spent 11 months and 11 days in combat as a Navy hospital corpsman, and the only things I got off the dog tags were name, serial number, and if they were in really bad shape, religious preference, and that was only to rule out Roman Catholic, because that's the only chaplain that would come and do some kind of last rites.

If a guy needed blood, he would be typed and cross matched anyway.  For EACH UNIT of blood he got.  We didn't pump ketchup into people based on what some clerk stamped on a piece of tin.

We would order type and cross match for, say, 3 units.  The lab guy would type the blood sample we sent, AND mix a little of the sample with a sample from each unit that we intended to hang.  Just to make sure that the little blood thingies didn't clump together.

CAPF 12 seems to call for bloodtype.  I have never seen one rejected for not filling that out.  Still, there has to be some reason that it is there.

CAPF 15 does as well.

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 07:18:05 PM

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 07:03:59 PM
How do these diatribes start??  I Have never heard or seen a need for a blood transfusion in the field with CAP members.  Number 2 CAP members don't have blood in the field.  Number 3, any place that is capable of doing a blood transfusion can type blood in under 10 minutes and would probably do so even if the DT had blood type on it.  Number 4 CAP Reg's do not permit blood transfusion by CAP members and I am not sure that CAP Reg's allow CAP members to bleed either.  How is that so much discussion can ensue about such a minute nonexistenet part of CAP??  Oh, and by the way, we don't do field trach's either, but, if push came to shove, I would do one.  Do I need to discuss it and confuse others on this board??  So, you can wear dog tags if your little heart desires and there is no such thing as an official CAP dog tag and hopefully if you are found unconscious without any ID or burnt beyond recognition, you will have one of your buddies around to ID you if you don't have your non-official dog tags on.  Gosh, a million and one problems with CAP and we have to keep inventing new ones??  Orange flight suits, yellow and red command scarves, promotion for to new members without waiting six months, come on guys, get with the real program..

Take her easy there doc. Remember your blood pressure. Nobody said anything about transfusing in the field or having blood in the field...I think the closest thing the RM even has is called hemalogue which is a blood substitute which is universal and tricks your heart into thinking it has more blood than it does. And...by the rational you are making, theres no reason for any RM soldier or sailor or airman to have dog tags on. I said all the things you said about how little time it takes to type and cross and that I can even do it myself. As for trachostomies...Im gonna cram down a contraband combitube long before I let you cut open a cadets neck or jam a wide bore needle in his windpipe. My record time for dropping a combitube is 47 seconds...Id have it in and be bagging before you even got your Tom Mix pocket knife out of your 24 pack. Im kidding with you because i respect you very much. I think we are all a little on edge these days...maybe we are waiting for an impeachment or something. Your point about post without points is well taken, but we do still have the 1st amendment last time i checked and its still a semi free country. Doc...you are 2 of the 3 nicest people I know. Semper Vi my friend.

If your hospital is going to give someone units of blood based on a piece of stamped tin around a fourteen year olds neck, then you have a lot greater issues then not being able to buy tags from CAP with your blood type on it.

Honestly, there is a line between 'hardcore' and 'run away from.'

I stand corrected on the BT.  I just remembered that CapMart wouldn't allow it, and I took it for granted.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 19, 2007, 06:48:50 PM

Quote from: stillamarine on July 19, 2007, 06:13:19 PM
How about one of those little rear lights for bikes? I saw one the other day and thought it would be an interesting ides to maybe put one on the back of a vest or pack. They can be set to strobe fast, slow or steady burn.

That's a good idea. Not too bright, but attention getting. Probably doesn't cost a whole lot either.

The ones for bikes are good, as are some they have for pets.  Sporting and outdoor goods stores sell small strobes also.  For less than a buck, Wal-Mart sells a 2" diameter red reflector with a red led flasher, not really a strobe, in the center, and a clip on the back.  People stick them on their hats, helmets, packs, etc.

Mike

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 07:03:59 PM
How do these diatribes start??  
. . .
Orange flight suits, yellow and red command scarves, promotion for to new members without waiting six months, come on guys, get with the real program..

Geeeeeeezzzzz..... I was just trying to make some fun conversation.

1) I really do think that a bright colored uniform makes more sense for emergency services and search and rescue than camoflage green.

2) I was just kidding around about the command scarf. It's not MY fault that the powers that be decided it should be an official option of our uniforms.

3) I really do care about getting a promotion if I correctly deserve it.

Relax folks, I come here for fun and to learn.

--Nomex M.

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 20, 2007, 03:07:28 AM
1) I really do think that a bright colored uniform makes more sense for emergency services and search and rescue than camoflage green.

Orange vest, remember? If you're walking into the woods in just your cammies, you're wrong.

Besides, the current camo's aren't really all that great for hiding you from anything other than a casual glance. As long as you're not actively attempting to hide, it's not difficult to be found.

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 20, 2007, 03:07:28 AM2) I was just kidding around about the command scarf. It's not MY fault that the powers that be decided it should be an official option of our uniforms.

We're just going to blame you anyway.... >:D  ;D

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 20, 2007, 03:07:28 AM3) I really do care about getting a promotion if I correctly deserve it.

No reason not to. If you're deserving, you should get it. If you have to wait, don't worry, the time will be gone before you know it.

Welcome to CAP...It's fun when you get to the real stuff that matters.

Quote from: JThemann on July 19, 2007, 08:36:09 PM

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 19, 2007, 07:18:05 PM

Quote from: capchiro on July 19, 2007, 07:03:59 PM
How do these diatribes start??  I Have never heard or seen a need for a blood transfusion in the field with CAP members.  Number 2 CAP members don't have blood in the field.  Number 3, any place that is capable of doing a blood transfusion can type blood in under 10 minutes and would probably do so even if the DT had blood type on it.  Number 4 CAP Reg's do not permit blood transfusion by CAP members and I am not sure that CAP Reg's allow CAP members to bleed either.  How is that so much discussion can ensue about such a minute nonexistenet part of CAP??  Oh, and by the way, we don't do field trach's either, but, if push came to shove, I would do one.  Do I need to discuss it and confuse others on this board??  So, you can wear dog tags if your little heart desires and there is no such thing as an official CAP dog tag and hopefully if you are found unconscious without any ID or burnt beyond recognition, you will have one of your buddies around to ID you if you don't have your non-official dog tags on.  Gosh, a million and one problems with CAP and we have to keep inventing new ones??  Orange flight suits, yellow and red command scarves, promotion for to new members without waiting six months, come on guys, get with the real program..

Take her easy there doc. Remember your blood pressure. Nobody said anything about transfusing in the field or having blood in the field...I think the closest thing the RM even has is called hemalogue which is a blood substitute which is universal and tricks your heart into thinking it has more blood than it does. And...by the rational you are making, theres no reason for any RM soldier or sailor or airman to have dog tags on. I said all the things you said about how little time it takes to type and cross and that I can even do it myself. As for trachostomies...Im gonna cram down a contraband combitube long before I let you cut open a cadets neck or jam a wide bore needle in his windpipe. My record time for dropping a combitube is 47 seconds...Id have it in and be bagging before you even got your Tom Mix pocket knife out of your 24 pack. Im kidding with you because i respect you very much. I think we are all a little on edge these days...maybe we are waiting for an impeachment or something. Your point about post without points is well taken, but we do still have the 1st amendment last time i checked and its still a semi free country. Doc...you are 2 of the 3 nicest people I know. Semper Vi my friend.

If your hospital is going to give someone units of blood based on a piece of stamped tin around a fourteen year olds neck, then you have a lot greater issues then not being able to buy tags from CAP with your blood type on it.

Honestly, there is a line between 'hardcore' and 'run away from.'

One thing that many  of you are missing is another aspect of why the BT is on the dog tags. It gives a sort of heads up. Soldier, Airman, etc goes into a CSH. One of the first things they do while a small amount of blood is being typed and crossed is to check their blood inventory against the wounded warriors type. Everyone is trying to make it out to be the do all and be all like no one checks any further than his tags. Its a starting point, another aspect of triage. Of course they dont just hang whatever type is on his tags without type and cross, but it does save some time, maybe only a couple of minutes, but if that warrior needs a transfusion, those 2 minutes may make the difference between life and death. Its the same reason that fire fighters and now some police departments their folks wear the little red nylon envelope i talked about on their belts. The fire fighter or LEO is hurt and cant talk, or has an altered mental status, the open up this little velcro pouch and out comes his medical information...allergies, pre-existing conditions, surgeries, pertinent past history and, eeh gads, blood type. Its like getting stopped by the police and getting asked for your drivers license. That LEO doesnt just take whats on your DL but it gives him a place to start when he radios for information on looks you up in his data terminal. Its really not such a hard concept. If you have someone already in shock, its a good thing to have a little jump start on his care.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 20, 2007, 03:23:06 AM

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 20, 2007, 03:07:28 AM
1) I really do think that a bright colored uniform makes more sense for emergency services and search and rescue than camoflage green.

Orange vest, remember? If you're walking into the woods in just your cammies, you're wrong.

Besides, the current camo's aren't really all that great for hiding you from anything other than a casual glance. As long as you're not actively attempting to hide, it's not difficult to be found.

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 20, 2007, 03:07:28 AM2) I was just kidding around about the command scarf. It's not MY fault that the powers that be decided it should be an official option of our uniforms.

We're just going to blame you anyway.... >:D  ;D

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on July 20, 2007, 03:07:28 AM3) I really do care about getting a promotion if I correctly deserve it.

No reason not to. If you're deserving, you should get it. If you have to wait, don't worry, the time will be gone before you know it.

Welcome to CAP...It's fun when you get to the real stuff that matters.

The real question I would like to hear answered is when the AF goes to ABUs, will the woodlands become the CAP distinctive fat and fuzzies and then we can just do away with the BBDUs.

When the AF goes to the ABU's, the BDU's will become corporate uniforms.  Do not know if NHQ phases out the BBDU.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 20, 2007, 04:32:27 AM
When the AF goes to the ABU's, the BDU's will become corporate uniforms.  Do not know if NHQ phases out the BBDU.

Not really. The old fatigues did not become corporate because they were phased out. They become an outdated uniform. We can't wear OD fatigues anymore because they're gone. Since it was a uniform allowed by the Air Force, they still have say on their wear.

There will still be a corporate utility over the next decade. It will probably change as the BDU design is starting to fall by the wayside. The costs on them will increase because of that. There are other options that would probably be adopted, I would imagine some kind of tactical clothing (it's pretty practical for SAR purposes). The 5.11 TDU is probably an item that will receive some consideration.

Isnt blood type on the form 60 we're supposed to have on missions anyway?

OH I DON"T  FEEL THE LOVE IN THIS THREAD ANYMORE :-*

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 20, 2007, 06:15:18 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 20, 2007, 04:32:27 AM
When the AF goes to the ABU's, the BDU's will become corporate uniforms.  Do not know if NHQ phases out the BBDU.

Not really. The old fatigues did not become corporate because they were phased out. They become an outdated uniform. We can't wear OD fatigues anymore because they're gone. Since it was a uniform allowed by the Air Force, they still have say on their wear.

There will still be a corporate utility over the next decade. It will probably change as the BDU design is starting to fall by the wayside. The costs on them will increase because of that. There are other options that would probably be adopted, I would imagine some kind of tactical clothing (it's pretty practical for SAR purposes). The 5.11 TDU is probably an item that will receive some consideration.

I love 5.11 gear. I get alot of my EMS stuff from them. I have work socks that actually have 6% rubber listed in the materials. How and why is what I think everytime i wear them.

There is a reason SWAT and soldiers wear green or dark color BDUs...they don't want to stand out.   When flying at our normal patrol levels (Helo 500 AGL) over the woods or an open field, without a focal point, anyone not wearing contrasting color clothing is difficult at best to be seen.  CAP is the only SAR group that wears camo shirts, poor choice if you want to be seen.
At 1,000 feet in a Cessna at 80 knots, unless our folks are out in the open with mirrors...I hope the sun is out!

Well, I've seen pictures of police SAR teams wearing dark blue/old style fatigue green/bdus/khaki.

But why invest the time and energy in orange uniforms when a five dollar vest can do most of the same. Maybe an orange hat/helmet for field duty.

Well, Well, Well...

An Orange Fligth Suit with plastic encased rank...

(http://www.durfee.net/startrek/images/TOS021.jpg)

(http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/8/86/KirkChristopher.jpg/210px-KirkChristopher.jpg)

And a service CAP and ascot to boot...

(http://www.gateworld.net/startrek/tos/s1/graphics/120.jpg)

He's dead, Jim.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 22, 2007, 06:23:29 AM
He's dead, Jim.

I was watching this episode when I was reading this thread.  It was like kismet!

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 22, 2007, 04:58:39 AM
There is a reason SWAT and soldiers wear green or dark color BDUs...they don't want to stand out.   When flying at our normal patrol levels (Helo 500 AGL) over the woods or an open field, without a focal point, anyone not wearing contrasting color clothing is difficult at best to be seen.  CAP is the only SAR group that wears camo shirts, poor choice if you want to be seen.
At 1,000 feet in a Cessna at 80 knots, unless our folks are out in the open with mirrors...I hope the sun is out!

You've got bigger problems if you're spending time looking for your ground teams instead of a downed target.

Besides, I've seen the slides, the photos and the videos showing the difference between those with vests, those without, and numerous other clothing options shown. It is no easier to find a guy in those wearing an orange shirt than it is to find one wearing "only" an orange vest. The false logic fails compared to the facts.

For all you anti-camo types, quit trying to create false facts. If you don't like the cammies, don't wear them. Don't feed people a line (or imply) that they will never be seen from again if they wear camo in the woods. It's garbage.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 22, 2007, 06:42:58 AM

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 22, 2007, 04:58:39 AM
There is a reason SWAT and soldiers wear green or dark color BDUs...they don't want to stand out.   When flying at our normal patrol levels (Helo 500 AGL) over the woods or an open field, without a focal point, anyone not wearing contrasting color clothing is difficult at best to be seen.  CAP is the only SAR group that wears camo shirts, poor choice if you want to be seen.
At 1,000 feet in a Cessna at 80 knots, unless our folks are out in the open with mirrors...I hope the sun is out!

You've got bigger problems if you're spending time looking for your ground teams instead of a downed target.

Besides, I've seen the slides, the photos and the videos showing the difference between those with vests, those without, and numerous other clothing options shown. It is no easier to find a guy in those wearing an orange shirt than it is to find one wearing "only" an orange vest. The false logic fails compared to the facts.

For all you anti-camo types, quit trying to create false facts. If you don't like the cammies, don't wear them. Don't feed people a line (or imply) that they will never be seen from again if they wear camo in the woods. It's garbage.

I think SARPilotNY is afraid that if ground teams wear camo, they might actually not just blend in, but literally meld with the surrounding foliage. As has been said, if you cant see the safety orange vest from the height you mentioned, you may wish to stop flying cause it would seem your vision is shot. But to reiterate, what are you as the mission pilot doing looking down at the ground for the team. Practically, there is no reason that you even need to see us down there...just worry about the wreckage and in fact, thats kinda what your right seat and scanner are for. Maybe the ground teams in New York could start carrying some orange or green or red smoke cans for ya "I cant see the GT, for the love of God, somebody pop some smoke before we have to abort." Come on. THere are a few folks here, and you know who you are, who just keep on futzing about uniforms to get reactions out of people. I like the idea of ES on BBDUs, not because I hate camo or even dislike it but pilots have distinctive (ie AF or CAP) gear and generally, blue is such a common color for "civilian" ES.  But, my feeling is this: if the GT I am on decides as a whole or is told by the Squadron commander to wear BBDUs, then I will do it. If they are all wearing camos, and now that I have dropped the weight, I'll wear camos. Since there is no significant or proven difference in visibility, for my money, uniformity is more important. I am sort of wondering though why there are alot of folks being worried about procuring woodland BDUs when AF goes all ABU. I tend to not want to order from Vanguard if I can help it because I just think..well you all know. We can all go to BDU.com and snarf up all the mil-spec BDUs we can eat. Heck, they even give the mil-spec number with which there BDUs comply. Propper are also consistantly better quality, easier to deal with and your local uniform shop will probably happily start stocking them for your squadron. Also, BDU.com is cheaper by a fair bit.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 22, 2007, 06:23:29 AM
He's dead, Jim.

You take his tricorder... I'll take his wallet!  ;D

Remember when flying from a moving platform, 1,000' agl with a normal orbit your target can be a half mile  or more away.  If I am trying to talk a team into a target and they are not in an open field, the orange vest that I am looking at is a very small target.  I am looking through his web gear, from his head down.  Vest were designed so construction workers could be seen by motorist, not aircrews.  Throw in some fall colors and were talking to an even more invisible target.  Good thing my eyes are checked every year but there is no eye test required for my 80 year old scanner.  I am just happy he doesn't have a heart attack in the back of the airplane or doesn't get air sick.  I have had times where each orbit we lose site of the team whereas if they all had orange shirts or jackets they would have been easily seen.  This really comes down to a safety issue.  I am for smoke and mirrors but visability and safety, all orange is the way to go.  Our NPS SAR folks wear orange shirts and are both highly visable from the ground for other teams as well as from the air.  Off goes the khaki, on goes the orange.

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 22, 2007, 03:59:58 PM
Vest were designed so construction workers could be seen by motorist, not aircrews.  Throw in some fall colors and were talking to an even more invisible target....

I have had times where each orbit we lose site of the team whereas if they all had orange shirts or jackets they would have been easily seen.  ....This really comes down to a safety issue.  I am for smoke and mirrors but visability and safety, all orange is the way to go.  Our NPS SAR folks wear orange shirts and are both highly visable from the ground for other teams as well as from the air. 

Funny, you can't even make up your mind. You say orange vests get lost in fall colors, but shirts are more visible than vests. The vests are designed for visibility, usually with prismatics or else made of synthetics that will not fade, and in eye burning colors. A shirt will lose that kind of visibility in three or four washes.

And you tell us that camo is impossible to see in the woods from altitude. Five months ago, one of our helicopter crews found a lost soldier in the woods from 750 ft. She was wearing BDU's at the time. Our crew must have supernatural vision or something, because by your reckoning, she never would have been found. Sky condition was scattered, so it wasn't a perfect day either.

Sorry, your facts aren't holding up. And considering that you feel that CAP should be wearing Boy Scout uniforms, your credibility is highly suspect.

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 22, 2007, 03:59:58 PM
Remember when flying from a moving platform, 1,000' agl with a normal orbit your target can be a half mile  or more away.  If I am trying to talk a team into a target and they are not in an open field, the orange vest that I am looking at is a very small target.  I am looking through his web gear, from his head down.  Vest were designed so construction workers could be seen by motorist, not aircrews.  Throw in some fall colors and were talking to an even more invisible target.  Good thing my eyes are checked every year but there is no eye test required for my 80 year old scanner.  I am just happy he doesn't have a heart attack in the back of the airplane or doesn't get air sick.  I have had times where each orbit we lose site of the team whereas if they all had orange shirts or jackets they would have been easily seen.  This really comes down to a safety issue.  I am for smoke and mirrors but visability and safety, all orange is the way to go.  Our NPS SAR folks wear orange shirts and are both highly visable from the ground for other teams as well as from the air.  Off goes the khaki, on goes the orange.

If you are looking at the ground team from your "orbit", all you need to see is that they are there and that if you are guiding them as they are also following the direction of the UDF, you only have to be able to see them, not what color they are. If you are looking down from above and saying that the orange shoulders of the vest are a small target to see, the whole body being orange from where you can see it is not going to be much more. If its really a problem expressed by other pilots, I will suggest that we start carrying orange nylon distress flags that we can hold over our heads so you can see them. Just remember, the pilots are assisting the GT, not the other way around. Also, we lost khaki many uniform generations ago. Besides, the reason that so many bizarre colors, (pink, lemon yellow, purple) have been experimented with over time and also the primary reason for the new surge in "digital camoflauge" is that the theory was long disproven that they eye primarily recognizes, or conversely cannot recognize things (ie you cant see us because we are camo) because of their color. We recognize things or not initially (and the brain makes a judgement, that is a person, or a building or a tree in milliseconds) because of their shape and by the same physiological function, it is the shape of the camo which affects our ability to see, not its color. Watch the WWII films of the random geometric shapes of the camo on planes and battle ships and then see what colors were experimented with. It is now known that camo if so effective, whatever its pattern, because of its ability to confuse the human brain into saying "that shape is not a person, the lines and curves arent right." So it wouldnt matter if we were wearing blaze orange hawaiian shirts, you would have a difficulty seeing us because your brain was expecting to see "servicemen" and not tourists. Simply put, your orange theory doesnt wash. This is why search transmissions (this is an actually one I have heard on a SAR I did in NM) often go like "Ground team leader, I make your team approx 3 clicks N/NE or a road running E to W, how copy my read?" to which the response was "Flier you have my team on spot, where now from our position using hard landmarks?"  By the way, on that SAR we were wearing tan...in the desert.

PS...you should probably let your observer and scanner do most of the looking at the ground lest you smack into it.  Speaking as a soon to be MO, I like my pilots to look at the wild blue yonder so they dont have to send a team looking for us.  Just a thought.

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 22, 2007, 06:45:37 PM
PS...you should probably let your observer and scanner do most of the looking at the ground lest you smack into it.  Speaking as a soon to be MO, I like my pilots to look at the wild blue yonder so they don't have to send a team looking for us.  Just a thought.

Brilliant!!

I am sending a priority flash message to the FAA immediately!  All flight training standards, flight training, pilot examinations, re-currency checks and all manner of things flying should now be placed under the direction and administration of non-pilot, non- (but soon-to-be) MO types.  Their superior insights into all manner aircraft operations is obvious.  What in the world have we been waiting for?

I fly, they observe.  Problem is there is no vision requirements for CAP scanners or observers.  Green BDU looks great  against the snow, orange against green, not much against fall colors.  I base my observations on years of just that, observing.  Is a lime yellow fire engine more visable than a red one?  A study to that question said lime yellow is more visable at night.   Guess what, NFPA standards aside, if you can't see all those flashing lights and scotchlite tape, I don't think color makes any difference.
Just as the DOT did studies on colors for traffic cones, road signage and safety vests.  Orange or the new safety yellow will outperform most other colors.  Camo???  No contest!   Tracking a ground team from the air in a fixed wing asset orbiting the team over rolling or mountainous terrain is difficult at best.  Maintaining a safe altitude, safe speed, comfortable turn that will keep the aircrew safe and happy will keep the target well over 1/4 mile from the crews eyes and more likely 1/2 mile.  If safety is our number one concern, (keeping hunters from mistaking us, cars from hitting us and so on) give me on reason why BDUs are a better choice.

us that camo is impossible to see in the woods from altitude. Five months ago, one of our helicopter crews found a lost soldier in the woods from 750 ft. She was wearing BDU's at the time. Our crew must have supernatural vision or something, because by your reckoning, she never would have been found. Sky condition was scattered, so it wasn't a perfect day either.

I bet the smoke, radios, mirrors and waiving arms helped too!

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 22, 2007, 06:45:37 PM

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 22, 2007, 03:59:58 PM
Remember when flying from a moving platform, 1,000' agl with a normal orbit your target can be a half mile  or more away.  If I am trying to talk a team into a target and they are not in an open field, the orange vest that I am looking at is a very small target.  I am looking through his web gear, from his head down.  Vest were designed so construction workers could be seen by motorist, not aircrews.  Throw in some fall colors and were talking to an even more invisible target.  Good thing my eyes are checked every year but there is no eye test required for my 80 year old scanner.  I am just happy he doesn't have a heart attack in the back of the airplane or doesn't get air sick.  I have had times where each orbit we lose site of the team whereas if they all had orange shirts or jackets they would have been easily seen.  This really comes down to a safety issue.  I am for smoke and mirrors but visability and safety, all orange is the way to go.  Our NPS SAR folks wear orange shirts and are both highly visable from the ground for other teams as well as from the air.  Off goes the khaki, on goes the orange.

If you are looking at the ground team from your "orbit", all you need to see is that they are there and that if you are guiding them as they are also following the direction of the UDF, you only have to be able to see them, not what color they are. If you are looking down from above and saying that the orange shoulders of the vest are a small target to see, the whole body being orange from where you can see it is not going to be much more. If its really a problem expressed by other pilots, I will suggest that we start carrying orange nylon distress flags that we can hold over our heads so you can see them. Just remember, the pilots are assisting the GT, not the other way around. Also, we lost khaki many uniform generations ago. Besides, the reason that so many bizarre colors, (pink, lemon yellow, purple) have been experimented with over time and also the primary reason for the new surge in "digital camoflauge" is that the theory was long disproven that they eye primarily recognizes, or conversely cannot recognize things (ie you cant see us because we are camo) because of their color. We recognize things or not initially (and the brain makes a judgement, that is a person, or a building or a tree in milliseconds) because of their shape and by the same physiological function, it is the shape of the camo which affects our ability to see, not its color. Watch the WWII films of the random geometric shapes of the camo on planes and battle ships and then see what colors were experimented with. It is now known that camo if so effective, whatever its pattern, because of its ability to confuse the human brain into saying "that shape is not a person, the lines and curves arent right." So it wouldnt matter if we were wearing blaze orange hawaiian shirts, you would have a difficulty seeing us because your brain was expecting to see "servicemen" and not tourists. Simply put, your orange theory doesnt wash. This is why search transmissions (this is an actually one I have heard on a SAR I did in NM) often go like "Ground team leader, I make your team approx 3 clicks N/NE or a road running E to W, how copy my read?" to which the response was "Flier you have my team on spot, where now from our position using hard landmarks?"  By the way, on that SAR we were wearing tan...in the desert.

PS...you should probably let your observer and scanner do most of the looking at the ground lest you smack into it.  Speaking as a soon to be MO, I like my pilots to look at the wild blue yonder so they dont have to send a team looking for us.  Just a thought.

I wonder why the FAA requires communications towers, water tanks and other structures orange (red) and white checkerboards if it would trick the mind?  Regardless, it does not make the towers invisible...maybe only to the guy that runs into it.

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 23, 2007, 02:43:49 AM
us that camo is impossible to see in the woods from altitude. Five months ago, one of our helicopter crews found a lost soldier in the woods from 750 ft. She was wearing BDU's at the time. Our crew must have supernatural vision or something, because by your reckoning, she never would have been found. Sky condition was scattered, so it wasn't a perfect day either.

I bet the smoke, radios, mirrors and waiving arms helped too!

No smoke, no radios, no mirrors, but probably waving arms.  According to you, she shouldn't have been found at all. After all, camo makes a person completely disappear, right?

If you don't like camo, man up and admit it. Don't try to create statistics.

great job by the crew, I don't think a CAP crew in a 80 knot aircraft would have the same results.  Yes, no secret here, I think wearing camo BDUs for SAR folks is a bad idea.  There are reasons why the DOT has standards for ambulances (KKK) and NFPA has standards for fire apparatus visability...to be seen.  There is a reason for camo...not to be seen.  Our folks in the air have a hard enough time as it is seeing our folks on the ground.  I wonder how many time somebody flew over the lost soldier before she was seen?  I bet she wished she was wearing orange.  BTW, how many SAR hours in grid do you have as a scanner or observer?

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 23, 2007, 04:48:30 AM
great job by the crew, I don't think a CAP crew in a 80 knot aircraft would have the same results.  Yes, no secret here, I think wearing camo BDUs for SAR folks is a bad idea.  There are reasons why the DOT has standards for ambulances (KKK) and NFPA has standards for fire apparatus visability...to be seen.  There is a reason for camo...not to be seen.  Our folks in the air have a hard enough time as it is seeing our folks on the ground.  I wonder how many time somebody flew over the lost soldier before she was seen?  I bet she wished she was wearing orange.  BTW, how many SAR hours in grid do you have as a scanner or observer?

Called orange vest, and orange hat.

At one time...it was not cool to:
Police:  wear body armour
Fire:  wear breathing apparatus
EMS:  wear gloves
CAP Ground Teams:  wear orange uniforms

The first 3 groups learned over the years why change was necessary and than later required...bulllit wounds, lung cancer, HIV and funerals.  Over the years, I have have attended dozens of funerals for friends that have died in the line of duty.  Some of them could have been prevented but we just wanted to look cool.  Why anyone in CAP ES would think looking "cool" vs "safety" is beyond me.  We have had aircrews fly over the same grids where they could not find an intact aircraft out in the open, why would we want to make their jobs any harder  for them so ground teams can just look cool?  I remember hearing of a CAP member being struck and killed on the freeway directing traffic, I am sure the car that hit him never really saw him.  But I bet he thought he looked cool.
The whole point of the color orange is visability that equates to safety.
When I started in the business, Scotchlight was too costly, only Geeks wore vests (both body armour and reflective).  Now vests are the norm and almost always required, Scotchlight on safety equipment is sewn by the yard and OMG, the lightbars and corner strobes...how can they miss us...but they still do.
If we could prevent the loss of I life of a CAP member...is it not worth it?

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 23, 2007, 06:33:36 AM
At one time...it was not cool to:
Police:  wear body armour
Fire:  wear breathing apparatus
EMS:  wear gloves
CAP Ground Teams:  wear orange uniforms

The first 3 groups learned over the years why change was necessary and than later required...bulllit wounds, lung cancer, HIV and funerals.  Over the years, I have have attended dozens of funerals for friends that have died in the line of duty.  Some of them could have been prevented but we just wanted to look cool.  Why anyone in CAP ES would think looking "cool" vs "safety" is beyond me.  We have had aircrews fly over the same grids where they could not find an intact aircraft out in the open, why would we want to make their jobs any harder  for them so ground teams can just look cool?  I remember hearing of a CAP member being struck and killed on the freeway directing traffic, I am sure the car that hit him never really saw him.  But I bet he thought he looked cool.
The whole point of the color orange is visability that equates to safety.
When I started in the business, Scotchlight was too costly, only Geeks wore vests (both body armour and reflective).  Now vests are the norm and almost always required, Scotchlight on safety equipment is sewn by the yard and OMG, the lightbars and corner strobes...how can they miss us...but they still do.
If we could prevent the loss of I life of a CAP member...is it not worth it?

The reason that you are meeting so much resistance is that you are all over the radar. First the vests are for the pilots, now you are worried about the GTs. It has nothing to do with looking cool. If I wanted to look cool, I would wear actual SAR gear rather than surplus bent to work for SAR. We are doing what we are supposed to be doing and wearing what is mandated. You are barking at the wrong dog. If you think it is vital for ground team to wear orange jumpsuits, then talk to NHQ about it, not us. I think CAP members have shown a willingness, often more than they should have to, to wear what we are ordered to wear even when there is no point to it. with your altitude and angle the only way the jump suit would be superior to the vests is if we laid down flat in formation. It would be better for us to wear a head lamp or something, but I say now, you get the regs changed and I will wear a bright orange jump suit or a pink tutu if you thats what NHQ says. Theyre not going to because there is no point to it and youre going to be largely alone in your pleas to NHQ because GTs arent going to back you up on it and I havent heard a flock of pilots besides you talking about having a problem seeing us.

I could see this being a a valid safety issue if we were losing GTs left and right...but we're not, so I'm not sure what the point is. Of course, we could always look for potential safety issues and try to solve them before they become an issue, but in this contect (where we've been doing on-the-job research for years) I don't think it's a problem. What's next? Tinfoil helmets?

Just put an orange ballcap on.

Incidentally, most orange vests I see are not really flourescent nor do they have reflective tape on them; they would look pretty blended in in fall foliage in some areas. My suggestion is to make sure you have an actual construction worker's vest, big enough to fit OVER your web gear (get one big enough for a King Kong beer gut) and top it with an orange hat.

Oh... My... Gawd!

There are two kinds of aircrews: 

Those that can see and those that can't.

I have been standing out with my GT wearing orange vests, with a bright-white (clean, even) van next to us in a parking lot no where NEAR a tree, and a crew flying at 800-1000 feet over the CLOSED store and they STILL couldn't see us, even though we were the ONLY people in the parking lot!

I have also been in the woods, and the swamp, in all four seasons, in two states (Ohio and Florida) and I have had crews spot us before we had visual on the aircraft throught the tree canopy.

In all cases we wore camo uniforms and orange vests. 

IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE! 

With some flight crews I could wear enough neon to make the Las Vegas strip look dull, and they would not see us.  With others, they can see us if all we had were orange watchbands.

The uniform of the United States Air Force is BDU camo at this time.  That's what I wear.  I will wear ABU when it is authorized for CAP.  We are on an Air Force mission, and we are the auxiliary of the United States Air Force.  We wear Air Force uniforms.  Case closed.

Hey...I'm not the one that started this subject...but...
If we found everything all the time we wouldn't have POD.
I say listen to California, the have authorized orange shirts for ground teams as well as Colorado and a few more.  Seems like California does more SAR than most wings...what do they know that we don't?  Maybe the reason they don't kill their folks is because they are visable.  Back to uniform(s)  sooo many to choose from, not so uniform.  I bet if you took the AF style uniform away, got rid of the rank, and medals, we would lose half our members...its all about the fashion show.  I ask the experts again that seem to see everything so well from the air, how many hours do you have in grid, how many finds (not ELTs) do you have?
BTW, I do wear USAF BDUs, fit in them and look good.

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 23, 2007, 03:29:30 PM
Maybe the reason they don't kill their folks is because they are visable.  Back to uniform(s)  sooo many to choose from, not so uniform. 

Show me a legitimate trend in losing Ground crews and I might buy it. I doubt you can. Otherwise, it's just false statistics that you've created. Civil Air Patrol is better at SAR than many other agencies. Maybe that's why we don't lose people like other agencies do.

I've been a member of California wing, and most people didn't wear that wing's orange shirt uniform. Biggest reason was that it was only authorized for wear on the mission. Couldn't wear it at your home unit. Most people didn't want to buy something that they couldn't wear to a meeting, too. Besides, have you ever worked with a California Ground Team in those uniforms? I doubt it, but I bet you'll make the claim to inflate your own "expertise".

As for the fashion, a lot of cadets get into the military aspect. Many want the experience of learning about the military. You sugest half would quit without the Air Force trappings. A large majority of that half would be cadets. You will take away their biggest interest in the program.

ES is not the only mission of CAP. And if it ever happened that that is all CAP did, it will fade away rather quickly. It wouldn't take much for other teams to build their experience and get better at it, especially if they didn't have any fallbacks.

Additionally, diminishing the experience of others here doesn't help your case. Put some facts up, a few links to legitimate studies. Declaring your boundless experience over others only serves to encourage them to ignore you.

As a matter of fact I have worked with California Wing ground teams.  Would you like me to send you their names ?   One of the reasons CAP is not seen as an equal with other Sheriff's teams is because were not.  Our teams have Cadets, theirs don't.  Our teams wear uniforms that set us aside, not bring us together.
Being from California, is it true that just a few people in your Wing run something like 90% of the missions?  Are you one of those or just a talker?
So why does California Wing authorize an orange shirt...just tp make a few people in the Wing feel like the other SAR folks or is it to be seen?  What do they know that most others in CAP not know?

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 23, 2007, 05:14:27 PM
As a matter of fact I have worked with California Wing ground teams.  Would you like me to send you their names ?   One of the reasons CAP is not seen as an equal with other Sheriff's teams is because were not.  Our teams have Cadets, theirs don't.  Our teams wear uniforms that set us aside, not bring us together.
Being from California, is it true that just a few people in your Wing run something like 90% of the missions?  Are you one of those or just a talker?

I don't get it. Rather than join one of these premiere SAR teams you would rather insult, diminish, belittle and make every attempt to change Civil Air Patrol. You want CAP ES  to be clones of other organizations. Why? If you don't think CAP is getting the job done, then join one of those other teams. CAP is an organization, not your personal SAR crew.

QuoteSo why does California Wing authorize an orange shirt...just tp make a few people in the Wing feel like the other SAR folks or is it to be seen?

They may authorize it, but it wasn't worn worn regularly. I saw people during quake relief wearing that outfit. Did they really need to be seen all that much? Would seem it's a case of personal recognition (ie."I've got something you don't!"), not a case of safety.

A "few" people run 90% of the missions? With the size of California, that couldn't be true based on simple logic.

I'm seeing that it's pointless to argue. Your "30+ years" seems to be the trump to every question posed to you. If ten other people came in here with similar experience, I would give the concept serious thought. All I see is you. Considering some of your past suggestions, I remain skeptical that yours is the be-all, end-all option for ES.

I will base some of my logic on fact.  I called upon an old friend that I have worked with professionally in the past, your new Wing Commanded.  He forwarded me some stats from your Wing newsletter... 7 ICs ran 79 % of all the missions in CA WG last year.
2 ICs ran 136 mission and they are from Southern California
California ran 321 missions
If you were to break CA into 3 regions, that would be 107 missions per region.
I know it's fuzzy math but, where CAWG has 48 ICs, what are the other 41 doing...all talk or show?
I understand one of the guys went on over 150 missions...does he wear orange?  I would think he is an expert to ask.  I also understand he has a full time job too!

I also am a member of a Sheriff's search team,  a USAR team, as well as a national incident command team.  If I were a safety officer at an earthquake incident and saw none "LE" people doing SAR in BDU's w/o safety vests, they would be sent home.  That simple!  I don't think our people have a real understanding of how dangerous a "hot zone" is after an earthquake.  CAP should not be there!

I had the opportunity and pleasure to work with several CAWG members during a joint SAR exercise and a missing airplane mission.  I will give you the names of the outstanding volunteers from CAP that I was able to work with.
Ostrat  Joyce  Charpentier  Keilholtz  Whaley
Do any of these people wear orange?...yes they did!

I watched CAP teams in green vs orange as well as the Federal and sheriff's teams in orange,  hands down orange wins!

I don't know your name, so tell me, were you one of the 7 ICs or any of the 5 above?

Are any of the 5 above experts or less qualified than you? 

Also why is CAWG turning back missions due to a lack of resources?

That wouldn't be in my definition of "primeire team"...sounds like the folks in CAWG need a reality check. 

Those are my facts...True or Not true?

BTW, how many of the 321 missions did you participate on?

Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 23, 2007, 07:19:51 PM
I will base some of my logic on fact.  I called upon an old friend that I have worked with professionally in the past, your new Wing Commanded.  He forwarded me some stats from your Wing newsletter... 7 ICs ran 79 % of all the missions in CA WG last year.
2 ICs ran 136 mission and they are from Southern California
California ran 321 missions
If you were to break CA into 3 regions, that would be 107 missions per region.
I know it's fuzzy math but, where CAWG has 48 ICs, what are the other 41 doing...all talk or show?
I understand one of the guys went on over 150 missions...does he wear orange?  I would think he is an expert to ask.  I also understand he has a full time job too!

I also am a member of a Sheriff's search team,  a USAR team, as well as a national incident command team.  If I were a safety officer at an earthquake incident and saw none "LE" people doing SAR in BDU's w/o safety vests, they would be sent home.  That simple!  I don't think our people have a real understanding of how dangerous a "hot zone" is after an earthquake.  CAP should not be there!

I had the opportunity and pleasure to work with several CAWG members during a joint SAR exercise and a missing airplane mission.  I will give you the names of the outstanding volunteers from CAP that I was able to work with.
Ostrat  Joyce  Charpentier  Keilholtz  Whaley
Do any of these people wear orange?...yes they did!

I watched CAP teams in green vs orange as well as the Federal and sheriff's teams in orange,  hands down orange wins!

I don't know your name, so tell me, were you one of the 7 ICs or any of the 5 above?

Are any of the 5 above experts or less qualified than you? 

Also why is CAWG turning back missions due to a lack of resources?

That wouldn't be in my definition of "primeire team"...sounds like the folks in CAWG need a reality check. 

Those are my facts...True or Not true?

BTW, how many of the 321 missions did you participate on?

Fact is, nothing your saying is based fact, or better yet, proven, documented statistics. Only anecdotal, BTDT mumbo jumbo. The fact is that we serve at the pleasure of the USAF and the other organizations who task us, not a grumpy, seemingly bitter pilot who apparently couldnt see a ground team if he were standing right on top them. Fly your plane, take your lead from other mission pilots, perhaps be still for a bit and learn a few new tricks after 30 years. Besides if youre a pilot, how often do you were BDUs and "look good in them?" Arent you afraid your flight crew wont be able to see you over there in the left seat?

Where's that padlock when you need it?