CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: jfkspotting on May 20, 2017, 09:07:19 PM

Title: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: jfkspotting on May 20, 2017, 09:07:19 PM
Anyone know what the largest squadron is in CAP, how many members are in it, and ow many aircraft they own?

Is there a way we can find out the largest squadron per wing?

What is the smallest squadron?

What is considered the median-sized squadron?


Mine has roughly 60+30 seniors. 2-3 Aircraft depending on month
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: etodd on May 20, 2017, 09:24:21 PM
Keep in mind that whoever claims to have the largest number of dues paying members on the roll ... may not necessarily be the Squandron with the highest average turnout on meeting nights. LOL

Would be interesting to see all the membership stats alongside attendance records.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on May 20, 2017, 11:28:29 PM
2-3 Aircraft depending on month


That doesn't seem right.
Title: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Spaceman3750 on May 20, 2017, 11:31:19 PM
2-3 Aircraft depending on month


That doesn't seem right.

It's unusual for most wings but it does happen.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on May 20, 2017, 11:53:44 PM
2-3 Aircraft depending on month


That doesn't seem right.

It's unusual for most wings but it does happen.


We recently had 3 at our unit...but I'm me was a temp, one for sale, one regular. You'd think a big wing like NY would need a bigger spread.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: jfkspotting on May 21, 2017, 03:46:34 PM
We usually have one stationed 182 and one stationed 206, and the visiting 172. We are the largest on LI and second largest after SYR in the state.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Ozzy on May 21, 2017, 05:19:27 PM
We usually have one stationed 182 and one stationed 206, and the visiting 172. We are the largest on LI and second largest after SYR in the state.

JFK... those aren't NY-328's aircraft, those are Long Island Group's aircraft.

And with the now-chartered squadron in Brentwood, I expect it to be one of the largest in the country eventually. The AFJROTC can't handle the amount of students looking to join up so CAP was requested to set up a squadron... by a few estimates it might easily get top 100 cadets soon after finalizing procedures to deal with the influx of new cadets.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: jfkspotting on May 22, 2017, 04:42:48 PM
I'm aware, however, they are chartered to our squadron. How does the creation of Brentwood affect us? There is no dying need to go running off to Brentwood, a very rough area--and they won't have their own aircraft since they don't have an airfield. It may shrink Squadron 9 further.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Ozzy on May 22, 2017, 06:42:36 PM
Explain what you mean by chartered. If you mean they are located there, that is correct that they are, but they were there long before Squadron 10 moved to LIG headquarters.

I also never said that the creation of the Brentwood squadron would affect your squadron other then saying it is likely to become the largest on Long Island. Your original question asked what is the largest squadron and how many members were in it. However, the creation of another squadron nearby and an increase of 40-50% of a group's cadets in a short time would definitely indirectly affect other squadrons nearby. I know several senior members and cadets from other squadrons are transferring over to help get the new squadron going; I would too but I am moving to Georgia in about two months.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: dwb on May 22, 2017, 06:49:17 PM
Leesburg, VA -- 115 cadets, 47 seniors. That's on the books; we don't get that many every week. Loudoun County is growing rapidly, which is a significant factor in our growth.

We have 1-2 aircraft at a time at KJYO depending on aircraft rotation in the Wing.

The average CAP squadron is probably closer to 15-20 cadets, ~10 seniors. NIN has some statistics on this in his role as RRO, but a disturbing percentage of CAP units are effectively under-strength and probably not executing all three missions.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Blanding on May 23, 2017, 07:31:02 AM
Anyone know what the largest squadron is in CAP, how many members are in it, and ow many aircraft they own?

Point me in the direction of a CAP squadron that owns their own aircraft... I have some fundraising questions for them!
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Shieldel on May 23, 2017, 01:11:34 PM
JFK, no one squadron nationally OWNS aircraft. They are WING ASSETS. As in yes they may be "in your squadron"....for maintenance and accountability purposes. If your squadron is doing O-Rides but there's a Wing Wide AFAM going on...chances are the IC will ask for the aircraft. The SAR takes precedence over your o-ride. CAP "triages" aircraft by priority of the situation. This is done by seniors in WMIRS when the aircraft is double booked, say it was booked for the rides but now we have a SAR so somebody on mission books it, oops double book! Now which one takes priority? SAR - any day.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: stillamarine on May 24, 2017, 09:22:06 AM
2-3 Aircraft depending on month


That doesn't seem right.

When I was there Emerald Coast Senior Squadron in Pensacola had two aircraft assigned at all times and during the summer months sometimes had 3. But they flew daily, 365 days a year sorties over Eglin range on firewatch. During the summer they regularly flew two sorties a day.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: jfkspotting on May 30, 2017, 07:19:47 PM
Leesburg, VA -- 115 cadets, 47 seniors. That's on the books; we don't get that many every week. Loudoun County is growing rapidly, which is a significant factor in our growth.

We have 1-2 aircraft at a time at KJYO depending on aircraft rotation in the Wing.

The average CAP squadron is probably closer to 15-20 cadets, ~10 seniors. NIN has some statistics on this in his role as RRO, but a disturbing percentage of CAP units are effectively under-strength and probably not executing all three missions.

[stupid]! that's huge! Are you the largest of VA?
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: dwb on May 30, 2017, 07:34:24 PM
Yes, although the unit in Manassas is very strong at 97 cadets, 73 seniors. Fredericksburg is also impressive at 95 cadets, 44 seniors.

Population density helps tremendously. We're all good squadrons that are firing on all cylinders, but we couldn't be this big if we were out in rural southwest Virginia.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: dogden on June 09, 2017, 01:07:14 PM
My Group is 15 units with almost 900 members (600-ish cadets and 300-ish Seniors). We have 8 aircraft assigned. We have one Hq unit, 8 Composite Squadrons, 3 Senior Squadrons, 3 Cadet Squadrons (2 school programs). We are in the process of chartering 1 composite squadron and 1 cadet squadron. We are also rechartering one cadet squadron to a composite squadron. Our largest unit is 180 and smallest is 18 averaging to 60 per unit.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Eclipse on June 09, 2017, 02:17:49 PM
Our largest unit is 180 and smallest is 18 averaging to 60 per unit.

What's the empty shirt ratio on a unit with 180 members?  Depending on location, one could argue that exceeds the reasonable ability
of most units to be able to manage effectively and should be busted up into more then one, if for no other reason then
to be able to afford leadership opportunities for more members.

That's the problem with these questions - most of the "largest" squadrons are school programs with mandatory and dubious participation
and very few seniors because the "staff" is teachers. For example, the unit in INWG at one point had something like 300 cadets
and only 5 seniors.  I don't know what that really "is", but it's not CAP.

My wing had a unit that for years was "driving to 100" by scooping up all the empty shirts they could find - they had maybe 30-40 active
members, but wore that "100" goal as if it meant something other then a lot of busy work for the admin and nightmare SUIs.

I don't think there's a unit in my wing that has the facility that could accommodate 180 people at one time, or even 1/2 that.

60 is probably about all the average staff can handle, with 100 being a handy number for a goal, but getting into areas of resources,
cycle times, and other issues that make it difficult to manage in today's CAP.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 09, 2017, 02:37:55 PM
Our unit hovers around 60 members, with perhaps half or a third there on a regular basis. Seems about right for most units.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: dogden on June 19, 2017, 04:54:40 PM
Quote
What's the empty shirt ratio on a unit with 180 members?

It is a school unit so the empty shirt ratio is pretty small, the cadets are required to participate to pass the CAP class.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: CAPLTC on July 16, 2017, 11:45:14 PM
Yes, although the unit in Manassas is very strong at 97 cadets, 73 seniors.
Fredericksburg is also impressive at 95 cadets, 44 seniors.
Population density helps tremendously.
We're all good squadrons that are firing on all cylinders, but we couldn't be this big if we were out in rural southwest Virginia.

True.
The greater-DC area is military town.
The Pentagon, Belvoir, McNair, Meyer, Bolling, Quantico, Navy Yard, WRMMC, Annapolis, USCG HQ, Meade, Andrews, Detrick, AP Hill, Dahlgren, etc etc etc.
Everyone is a vet or works for the Gov it seems.
Fertile ground for recruiting.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Eclipse on July 16, 2017, 11:59:10 PM
Fertile ground for recruiting.

I disagree - my experience has been that people who spend the whole day in a uniform
aren't that interested in spending their off time in one, double for their kids, who
a lot of time resent the wandering the uniform forces on them.

I've seen a lot of kids with "dad in the military" cycle through CAP with little tangible success.

The transient nature of assignments doesn't help, either.

The areas that have retirees or recent separations seem to be more fertile then the
areas with a lot of active forces because all of a sudden they find themselves without
the team spirit, etc., they took for granted.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: CAPLTC on July 17, 2017, 12:11:49 AM
Fertile ground for recruiting.

I disagree - my experience has been that people who spend the whole day in a uniform
aren't that interested in spending their off time in one, double for their kids, who
a lot of time resent the wandering the uniform forces on them.

I've seen a lot of kids with "dad in the military" cycle through CAP with little tangible success.

The transient nature of assignments doesn't help, either.

The areas that have retirees or recent separations seem to be more fertile then the
areas with a lot of active forces because all of a sudden they find themselves without
the team spirit, etc., they took for granted.

Fair enough.

Do LA, NYC, Chicago, Miami, and DFW (just based upon population density?) have the same CAP cadet population density as the greater DMV area does?
If it's retirees, I guess we'd investigate FL, TX, and NC - they seem to draw a good % of the retirees I have ever known.

Maybe it's just proximity to DoD stuff that helps the DMV squadrons?
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: dwb on July 17, 2017, 11:55:27 AM
You're both right. We do benefit from big gov being so close by. We lose some people to military rotations, but more importantly we have a lot of folks with busy jobs and long commutes, which means they're able to commit less time to CAP. So we have a lot of seniors doing a little to chip in, rather than a few who have the hours to commit to the time consuming duty assignments (like command).

Also, "the DMV" is a pretty sizable geographic area that has its own subcultures and peculiarities. Some of the NATCAP and MDWG squadrons may be more impacted by DoD personnel rotations than Leesburg is.

Another point is that this is a high cost of living area. I know I'm not retiring here, and in fact most people don't retire here. Let's be honest, a lot of the work of CAP, especially the flying, is done by folks who are not working full time. We have a smaller pool of those people relative to our population.

All of this is to say -- yes, the raw numbers are large, but we still have our challenges like everyone else.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: NIN on July 17, 2017, 12:56:39 PM
NVM things like the traffic in that area is *awful* for the density.  Its not like driving in downtown Boston, where you *expect* it to be horrible. You're 20+ miles out of the city, even, and going from Point A to Point B that are 5 miles apart might take you close to an hour between 4 & 6pm depending on direction. That kind of factor has an impact on your recruiting area, etc.



Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: SarDragon on July 17, 2017, 02:02:18 PM
The last time I looked (and it's been a while), all of the NatCap Wing were meeting outside the DC city limits, i.e. VA & MD, leading to more commute issues.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: NIN on July 17, 2017, 02:02:58 PM
The last time I looked (and it's been a while), all of the NatCap Wing were meeting outside the DC city limits, i.e. VA & MD, leading to more commute issues.

Not precisely true anymore.
Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: Eclipse on July 17, 2017, 02:09:11 PM
An issue we have in ORD is people don't >live< in the loop.  At night it's a ghost town
and there aren't any airports or community type-centers in the downtown area, either.

Certainly not much that the average CAP unit could afford.  If you find a place, there's no
(free) parking, and if you commute you find yourself on the L at 1000 at night. No thanks.

That "cool dude in the next cube who wants to help kids" actually takes two trains and lives
nowhere near a unit.  The near neighborhoods are all but suburbs themselves, and at that point
it's easier just to try and hit an established unit.

This is why the second largest city in the country has essentially zero CAP presence.

I recently tried to poach make an opportunity for one of my wings highest performers.
He works in the loop and lives nearby.  Despite having a train station well near reasonable on
both ends for his office, there was nothing near his house.  No matter how we did the math nothing
was reasonable.  He was looking at 2-3 hours of commute time for a 2.5 hour meeting, and if he missed
a train on the late side, he might be sleeping at the airport until the AM commutes start.

Title: Re: Largest/Smallest/Median squadron 2017?
Post by: SarDragon on July 17, 2017, 02:18:23 PM
The last time I looked (and it's been a while), all of the NatCap Wing were meeting outside the DC city limits, i.e. VA & MD, leading to more commute issues.

Not precisely true anymore.

OK, I looked. There is now a unit meeting at Anacostia, which is still not a commuter's dream.