CAP Reg. 35-5 stipulates that Senior Members can be promoted to the rank they achieved while on active duty. Not to exceed Lt. Col. However this is with the approval of the local Commander and must be approved in writing up the chain of Command to National.
I have run into commanders that refuse to promote, this has always been a non-veteran who does this. My technique to work through this is to have the Senior Member submit his/her DD-214, a professional Military resume, and a form 2. When I joined CAP in 1912, I had to do this because our promotion board chairman also refused to promote prior military. I failed to mention that at the time I complained to my group commander and he made a phone call to my commander to stop blocking promotions.
Once again I am running into this attitude while trying to get a highly decorated retired Marine combat Veteran Officer his initial promotion. Its been seven months, and the Commander wants to wait and see if the officer is a benefit to the Squadron.
What do you think ?
As a commander, I'd never promote someone based on military or pilot or whatever on day 1. They need to complete level 1 AND take a staff position that is appropriate to what their requesting. I have told them at the outset, so there no misunderstanding. I've had folks want to join and the first thing they ask for is the advanced promotion. When I explain the process, I usually don't see them again. But I do have retire CFO as my asst. finance officer (he got an advanced promotion after being primary for three months). He's my assistant because he's a snowbird.
QuoteWhen I joined CAP in 1912
I thought CAP wasn't formed until 1941? ???
Quote from: arajca on June 04, 2016, 09:34:16 PM
As a commander, I'd never promote someone based on military or pilot or whatever on day 1. They need to complete level 1 AND take a staff position that is appropriate to what their requesting.
+1
Quote from: wingnut55 on June 04, 2016, 09:13:20 PM
Once again I am running into this attitude while trying to get a highly decorated retired Marine combat Veteran Officer his initial promotion. Its been seven months, and the Commander wants to wait and see if the officer is a benefit to the Squadron.
and....what has he done for CAP which would be commensurate with the grade in question in those 7 months?
Quote from: arajca on June 04, 2016, 09:34:16 PM
As a commander, I'd never promote someone based on military or pilot or whatever on day 1. They need to complete level 1 AND take a staff position that is appropriate to what their requesting. I have told them at the outset, so there no misunderstanding. I've had folks want to join and the first thing they ask for is the advanced promotion. When I explain the process, I usually don't see them again. But I do have retire CFO as my asst. finance officer (he got an advanced promotion after being primary for three months). He's my assistant because he's a snowbird.
So because of your personal opinion you refuse to follow CAP REG 35-5, It does not give you the Right to Refuse, or the right to add additional hoops to jump through at your discretion or fancy. For all the readers here, CAP rank is just Honorary to the Air Force, A CAP Officer must complete certain tasks, attend certain functions (such as a Wing convention), and so many years between promotions. Is it possible to be a Lt Col. in CAP with no High School degree, no skills, just good attendance at functions and limited hoops: Yes, I know of several. Ones has spent 30 years as a janitor, no High School. The Air Force thinks so little of our CAP rank that they require CAP to wear rank that is distinctively different from the military. And Military personnel are Instructed that they may chose to NOT Salute a CAP officer, because CAP rank is strictly Honorary, that's why Doctors, Lawyers, School Teachers, CFI's General Radio Telephone Operator license holders are "Given" advanced rank.
Contrast that with the requirements to be a Commissioned Officer in the US Military. Education, Education, Education, proven command ability, designated technical skills, advanced education, advanced military tactics and military organization schools, minimum time in grade, no adverse events (social and Legal), maintain a security clearance as needed, proven leadership and supervisory skills, adherence to regulations and directives, years of deployments away from family, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
So CAP wants to be part of the Military, But you decide what rules will be followed at the whim of a local commander, And I use that term with little respect, because in my over 40 year connection with CAP, most local commanders are chosen, solely because No one wants the job. The common joke is you pick the one who is sleeping.
Finally I would like to add that as a veteran you offend me, I suspect you are not former military. In my little world of CAP much of my flying has been in direct support of the US Military of all branches. Most of the members that I work with are retired Military, do you think a local commander made them do the Michael Jackson moon walk before they pinned on there "used" Major oak leaf ?
So how is that recruitment of Experienced Dedicated Military Veterans working out for you??? It's not ! maybe you should stop spitting on real military achievements. respect the rank, and not mandate through dictatorial rules your delusional ideals.
60 years ago 90% of CAP members never rose above Warrant Officer, all former Military officers retained their former rank, very few CAP officers were promoted above captain, but to improve membership they created the myth of promotion. You on the other hand believe what??
You need to read and look at the words...
Quote
CAP Reg. 35-5 stipulates that Senior Members can be promoted to the rank they achieved...
Does not mean that Nat HQ is saying "they are to be."
On the other hand, you are stating the regulation says that "all ex-military officers are to be, and should be promoted."
You need a dictionary. It does not mean that.
Although when I was Personnel Officer, my policy was to recommend the commander does approve that raise...
Arajca does have a sound policy.
Simmer down, Francis. The reg says may be advanced, not will be advanced. It is the discretion of the commander to recommend that a member be advanced. There are no guarantees for any advanced grade.
Quote from: wingnut55 on June 04, 2016, 11:20:23 PM
Finally I would like to add that as a veteran you offend me, I suspect you are not former military. In my little world of CAP much of my flying has been in direct support of the US Military of all branches. Most of the members that I work with are retired Military, do you think a local commander made them do the Michael Jackson moon walk before they pinned on there "used" Major oak leaf ?
I am a veteran.
QuoteSo how is that recruitment of Experienced Dedicated Military Veterans working out for you??? It's not ! maybe you should stop spitting on real military achievements. respect the rank, and not mandate through dictatorial rules your delusional ideals.
Actually, it's working quite well. I don't hide anything or make them jump through unreasonable hoops. I currently have 5 (besides me) veterans, mostly officers, in my unit. I also have an active reservist. And a lawyer. In addition to my ex-CFO finance guy. Everyone was told up front this is what we want to see. None of them had any issues with it. Give them the rules, follow said rules, and they have no issues. The ones that had issues weren't ones we really wanted around, as we found out later.
Quote60 years ago 90% of CAP members never rose above Warrant Officer, all former Military officers retained their former rank, very few CAP officers were promoted above captain, but to improve membership they created the myth of promotion. You on the other hand believe what??
You want recognition in CAP, contribute.
Contrary to what you seem to believe, veterans are not all-knowing god-like beings, that mere mortals are not fit associate with.
I've had several former officers join our unit and they insisted that they not be promoted until they had earned it. All are still with the squadron. On the other hand as a member of the Group Promotion Board, we had a former Colonel who had been a member for 10 years who I recommended not get promoted because there was no record of his doing any PD in those 10 years.
Quote from: wingnut55 on June 04, 2016, 11:20:23 PM
So because of your personal opinion you refuse to follow CAP REG 35-5, It does not give you the Right to Refuse, or the right to add additional hoops to jump through at your discretion or fancy.
You might want to try reading the whole reg. It actually does give a commander the "Right to Refuse"
Quote1-6. Minimum Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Eligibility Requirements. To qualify
for initial appointment to CAP officer or NCO grade, members must meet the following
minimum requirements:
a. Be at least 21 years of age.
b. Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
c. Complete Level I of the Professional Development Program (see CAPR 50-17).
Former members who have completed Level I training and have less than a 2 year membership
break and former cadets who have earned the General Billy Mitchell Award or higher, and have
less than a 2 year membership break are exempt from the Foundations portion of Level I
training.
d. Be recommended for promotion by the unit commander.
So, by withholding said recommendation, the local commander has an explicit "Right to Refuse".
Specifically with respect to prior military special promotions:
Quote3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve and National
Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or
resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but
not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience.
Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting
authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant
officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. The unit commander will
initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper
documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or
promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).
No promotion in CAP (or the military for that matter) is guaranteed or automatic. If you take a few minutes to read CAPR 35-5 you will see that none of the higher grade appointments are mandatory or automatic. This includes prior military and others such as chaplains, lawyers, medical personnel, etc. The policy within my Wing, and one that I completely support, is that the member must show a value to CAP beyond just paying annual dues. The higher the promotion, the greater that value should be. The advanced promotions are a sign of recognition of the member's previous experience and current value to CAP.
I once had an issue with a retired Army Captain who insisted that he be promoted. He refused to wear the CAP uniform properly, thumbed his nose at regulations and was an all around pain in the ass. I recommended he not be promoted until he got his act together. This was approved by the squadron commander and blessed by the wing commander.
Today, he is a solid performer and key member of the squadron. Had he been handed an instant promotion, I doubt that would be the case.
Wingnut, the reg is pretty clear on this. The promotion is not automatic and is totally at the unit commanders discretion.
You making an end run around the unit commander by going to the Group Commander because your commander didn't give you an answer you liked is not going to make you any friends.
It's called jumping the chain of command and is very frowned on in the military and in CAP.
And I'm drawing a military retirement, so yes I'm a veteran.
Quote from: wingnut55 on June 04, 2016, 11:20:23 PM
So CAP wants to be part of the Military, But you decide what rules will be followed at the whim of a local commander, And I use that term with little respect, because in my over 40 year connection with CAP, most local commanders are chosen, solely because No one wants the job. The common joke is you pick the one who is sleeping.
So have you stepped up to be the commander? It sounds like this will solve all of your problems! You can promote veterans, you can break the pattern of "no one wants the job," and you can promote the Core Value of Respect at the same time!
I stand corrected, Thanks
I approved 2 military grade promotions while I was the SqCC. Both members ended up being completely worthless, if not even a liability. However the mom, the dad, the retired plumber, the auto mechanic, the nurse and the local civilian CFI and retired school teacher were the people everyone remembers. Well... and then theres me... the SqCC who was made famous because everyone else made me appear as if I had the leadership and management abilities of Sun Tzu.
That being said..... coming in as a veteran military officer or NCO, in my experience, has little to no correlation with the type of CAP member you become. No more or no less than anyone else coming in off the street just looking to participate. So it is it sadistic and cruel to have a member prove they can be an asset before CAP approves an advanced promotion? If you have any desire to have CAP rank be anything more than a recruiting tool.... then it may be something to consider.
... double post
Although I am now an ex-member this is a topic that I found both interesting and troublesome. The last membership cycle I was very quickly told I could have my military rank or have rank given based on the fact I was a fight instructor.
Other than the basic leadership and land navigation skills very little of my military skill set would have been of value to the CAP. (Unless the CAP has an Armor/Cavalry component I was totally unaware of).
As a flight instructor to be virtually handed the rank of Captain on day 1 made no sense. Maybe not on day 1, I was asked to complete Phase 1 first.
In fact, the entire 'rank' business of CAP as it is seems to be counter productive. On one hand CAP wants to teach military values and courtesy to the cadets, and then undermines this almost immediately when the cadets see and hear a 2LT and an LTC addressing each other by first names, failing to salute, etc.
And then seeing this same behavior carry over on active duty military bases where CAP Members in sight and sound of active military really makes the CAP look professional.
Then handing out rank like Halloween candy to folks that have little idea of what the CAP even is. Sorry Army, Navy, Marine, Coast Guard Guys, but all of us are way behind the curve on understanding the Civil Air Patrol until we have been trained (indoctrinated).
To my line of thinking if the Civil Air Patrol wants to use military rank, then all members seniors as well as cadets should be required to uphold the traditions, and values of military behavior and courtesy. We expect a group of cadets to march in formation, but allow a mob of seniors to follow.
As I stated I am an ex-member and no longer have a dog in the fight.
Some units are better at this than others.
Admittedly, there's a poor way of compromising on Skills/former military experience. We have members who spend a decade or more getting to LtCol "organically", only to have people come in as a LtCol based on former military experience. Then we get into the arguments of "grade doesn't really mean anything". But then the members who do it organically hit all sorts of roadblocks when trying to work the PD, staff and leadership positions, and struggle to get Field Grade.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 07, 2016, 02:35:48 PM
Some units are better at this than others.
Admittedly, there's a poor way of compromising on Skills/former military experience. We have members who spend a decade or more getting to LtCol "organically", only to have people come in as a LtCol based on former military experience. Then we get into the arguments of "grade doesn't really mean anything". But then the members who do it organically hit all sorts of roadblocks when trying to work the PD, staff and leadership positions, and struggle to get Field Grade.
When field grade officers can't submit a retired E-9 for promotion to CMSgt without a CMSgt reviewing (and essentially approving/disapproving) the field grade officers' submission, it's hard to claim with a straight face that grade below colonel means a whole bunch (beyond eligibility for certain positions, PME, and customs and courtesies).
Quote from: DoubleSecret on June 07, 2016, 06:53:38 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 07, 2016, 02:35:48 PM
Some units are better at this than others.
Admittedly, there's a poor way of compromising on Skills/former military experience. We have members who spend a decade or more getting to LtCol "organically", only to have people come in as a LtCol based on former military experience. Then we get into the arguments of "grade doesn't really mean anything". But then the members who do it organically hit all sorts of roadblocks when trying to work the PD, staff and leadership positions, and struggle to get Field Grade.
When field grade officers can't submit a retired E-9 for promotion to CMSgt without a CMSgt reviewing (and essentially approving/disapproving) the field grade officers' submission, it's hard to claim with a straight face that grade below colonel means a whole bunch (beyond eligibility for certain positions, PME, and customs and courtesies).
Hence the second half of my post.
Most of the CFIs in my unit have waited as long as a year to get their mission based promotion. We ask that they at least get qualified as a TMP, and prefer O-ride pilot quals. They need to be participating as a pilot before they get any promotions based on being a pilot.
I don't approve military or other special promotions unless the member is actively contributing, something that can't be demonstrated on day one.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:44:00 AM
I don't approve military or other special promotions unless the member is actively contributing, something that can't be demonstrated on day one.
And that is the way it should be done. That is how it is done in my Wing.
We just had approval for a former AF Colonel to wear LtCol. He's been with us for over a year. No hard feelings from his end.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:56:42 AM
We just had approval for a former AF Colonel to wear LtCol. He's been with us for over a year. No hard feelings from his end.
I have heard of a few O-6 and above that join CAP and from what I have heard very few, if any, had an issue with "only" being an Lt Col. I know of one GO who actually refused any advanced promotion. He wanted to earn it like everyone else.
When the understanding is set properly from the first handshake, there's rarely issues.
The problem is far too many recruiting conversations start with "come and fly for free and we'll give you captain".
My conversations start with "these are the expectations and potential opportunities of membership".
I always start with and stress the word "expectations" on purpose.
Make everyone a Colonel! And, bring back the Guayabera shirt, too. Are we talking about uniforms, yet?
A Colonel (any officers for that matter) in the military (rip or retired) should automatically get their equivalent grade, it should be part of their membership application. If you think the specter of not getting promoted in CAP is going to make a guy like that participate more then you are sadly mistaken. Promote the guy and then mine him like the resource he is! If he turns out to be a dead end then part ways. He (or she, I heard they let women in the military, now :o ) isn't going to get anything out of it, he's already a Colonel. Besides, it doesn't count against you, you can have as many Colonels as you want to recruit.
It's a silly requirement to make a guy wait. Most likely, he is still going to wear a Defense Meritorious Service or a Legion of Merit ribbon so why not get some PAO mileage out of the guy joining; splash the paper with Colonel Smith joins local CAP unit! We're as cool as the Air Force, now press releases.
Quote from: wingnut55 on June 04, 2016, 11:20:23 PM
For all the readers here, CAP rank is just Honorary to the Air Force,
A CAP Officer must complete certain tasks, attend certain functions (such as a Wing convention), and so many years between promotions. Is it possible to be a Lt Col. in CAP with no High School degree, no skills, just good attendance at functions and limited hoops: Yes, I know of several. Ones has spent 30 years as a janitor, no High School. The Air Force thinks so little of our CAP rank that they require CAP to wear rank that is distinctively different from the military. And Military personnel are Instructed that they may chose to NOT Salute a CAP officer, because CAP rank is strictly Honorary, that's why Doctors, Lawyers, School Teachers, CFI's General Radio Telephone Operator license holders are "Given" advanced rank.
I think you have put forth some sort of "alternate universe" theory here.
CAP rank is not "honorary to the Air Force." It isn't even awarded by the Air Force. In fact, it's not "honorary" at all - it is quite real - to CAP. Which is all the real it needs to.
Of course, if you can cite a CAP or USAF regulation that states "CAP rank is just honorary to the Air Force," I'll issue a retraction. But, if you can't - I'd hope that you would retract your claim.
The problem is that in the Air Force, rank and grade are use differently than in CAP, with a few exceptions, which causes a lot of confusion not just to those in the outside, but for many of our members as well.
For example, how many times members in CAP Talk have been corrected that Maj is a grade, not a rank. In the Air Force Maj is a rank, with a pay grade of O-4. In addition, not all pay grades in the military have the same rank. A Corporal (E-4) outranks a Specialist (E-4). And within the same rank or grade, there is other criteria to determine who outranks who.
Rank/pay grades in the military are used to determine levels of authority and responsibility, as well as assignments. Not necessarily in CAP, where a squadron commander or wing director can be, and often is, a 1st Lt with members of higher grades under them.
Now, I agree that rank/grade in CAP is not honorary and is real to us. But since it's mostly used as a form of recognition, even though it has a lot of similarities with Air Force ranks, that makes it not quite real for what rank normally represents.
I'm partial to the way USNSCC handles officer promotions. Everyone initially serves a one year probationary period as an Instructor. Active, Reserve and Retired military have the option of wearing thier service uniform/military grade while serving as Instructors.
After the probationary year is completed, members may apply for an appointment to Ensign (O-1) provided they have met all other promotion criteria or they may opt to remain as Instructors indefinitely. Prior service personnel, over 35 years old, who obtained the grade of E-6 and above with at least 8 years of military service also have the option of applying for a Warrant Officer (W-2) appointment.
Lieutenant (O-3) and Lieutenant Commander (O-4) promotion packages go before a national selection board. The highest grade a member may be promoted to is Lieutenant Commander (O-4).
The thing about revamping CAPs structure is a question of "what then?" I'm willing to bet a large number of our members are invested in the current system, for what it's worth, because in most cases it shows a natural progression. Do the PD, do the job, put in the time, earn recognition via higher grade and responsibility. If we decouple the grade from positions, then where do we arrive? Maj. Gen for Nat. CC, (say) Gen for Region, Col for wing, LtCol for Group, Maj for Squadron, Capt for Dept. Head, 1st Lt for Duty Position, 2d Lt for assistant, and Member for all others? Get a ribbon w/device to show highest achievement, but revert to whichever after your term in X position level? It starts to look like the USCG Aux model, but is it really any better than what we have now?
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 02:25:09 PM
The thing about revamping CAPs structure is a question of "what then?" I'm willing to bet a large number of our members are invested in the current system, for what it's worth, because in most cases it shows a natural progression. Do the PD, do the job, put in the time, earn recognition via higher grade and responsibility. If we decouple the grade from positions, then where do we arrive? Maj. Gen for Nat. CC, (say) Gen for Region, Col for wing, LtCol for Group, Maj for Squadron, Capt for Dept. Head, 1st Lt for Duty Position, 2d Lt for assistant, and Member for all others? Get a ribbon w/device to show highest achievement, but revert to whichever after your term in X position level? It starts to look like the USCG Aux model, but is it really any better than what we have now?
I've proposed this before, but I'll put it here again.
First, start at CAP/CC as Maj Gen, for each echelon, drop one step:
National CC: Maj Gen
Region CC: B Gen
Wing CC: Col
Group CC: Lt Col
Sq CC: Maj
Flt CC: Capt
From there, I would say 3 "tiers" of staff: Command Staff, Senior Staff, Junior Staff
Command Staff: Vice Commander, Deputy Commander, Chief of Staff
Senior: Anyone who at Wing is designated as "Director of..."
Junior: Rest
The staff sits as follows:
Command: 1 step below CC (ie. National CV and CS get B Gen, Region get Col)
Senior: 2 steps below CC (Wing DO is a Major, Squadron DO is 1st Lt)
Junior: 3 steps below CC (Squadron SnackO is 2nd Lt)
Finally, Assistants sit one step below their primary.
Holding onto grade: I would suggest that if you hold a position for a period of time, say 2 years, you could retrain that grade in a "graduated" entitlement. So, spend 2 years as a Wing/CS, you get to keep Lt Col. At the same time, I would remove the "Field Grade" bars off the rank insignia, and add them to "current holders" of rank. So, if you're a current Wing/CC, there's a bar on your bird epaulets, if you're a graduated Wing/CC, still wear the birds, but no bar on them.
At least with that, if you see someone with Lt Col running around, you know that they hold or have held a position of considerable responsibility (Group Command, Wing/CV or CS, Region Senior Staff, or National Staff). Even if they no longer hold that position, you at least know that they've "been there, done that" and should have a pretty good idea of how stuff works.
"It starts to look like the USCG Aux model, but is it really any better than what we have now?"
Nope. Not really. We still get to wear our stripes after we leave a position in the Coast Guard Auxiliary as long as we complete at least 50% of our elected or appointed term. At least in CAP when you see someone with bars or oak leaves on you know that they met a minimum standard (TIG, TIS, PME) to put them on. In the Coast Guard Auxiliary, I could be wearing a gold bar today, take another job tomorrow and be wearing silver oak leaves.
It's still broken the first time the former Wing CC returns to a squadron assignment, there's simply no way around that issue.
Until it's "up and / or out" the fixes just shuffle the broken.
Want to be a Major? Then you can't stick around here, been nice hanging with you, hope you trained at least 2-3 potential replacements.
There should be no one higher then a Capt at the squadron level and the group people should all be Majors. Not qualified for Major?
Then seriously, you're not qualified to be serving at the Group level anyway, same goes for Lt Col for Wing. The region should be all birds.
And even that is broken because unless you bring in a star at wing, two at region and three-4 at NHQ.
Here's a thought - how about temporary / administrative reduction in grade if you circle back around? Wing king wants to be unit coffee officer for awhile?
Fine, Col Bird becomes Capt Bird until such time as he has a primary unit of assignment again at the Wing or higher.
That, would at least show the lay of the land to everyone where you fit in the CAP universe.
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 10, 2016, 02:42:05 PM
Nope. Not really. We still get to wear our stripes after we leave a position in the Coast Guard Auxiliary. At least in CAP when you see someone with bars or oak leaves on you know that they met a minimum standard (TIG, TIS, PME) to put them on. In the Coast Guard Auxiliary, I could be wearing a gold bar today, take another job tomorrow and be wearing silver oak leaves.
Can do that in CAP too. Join today, Wing Commander likes you and appoints you "Legislative Liaison", and Boom...insta-silver oak leaves.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 02:45:27 PM
It's still broken the first time the former Wing CC returns to a squadron assignment, there's simply no way around that issue.
Until it's "up and / or out" the fixes just shuffle the broken.
Want to be a Major? The you can't stick around here, been nice hanging with you, hope you trained at least 2-3 potential replacements.
Here's a thought - how about temporary / administrative reduction in grade if you circle back around? Wing king wants to be unit coffee officer for awhile?
Fine, Col Bird becomes Capt Bird until such time as he has a primary unit of assignment again at the Wing or higher.
That, would at least show the lay of the land to everyone where you fit in the CAP universe.
Then that Wing/CC can either wear the birds in the "graduated" form, or pin on the rank appropriate to the assignment.
But from a perception standpoint, nothing changes. Still a bunch of people wearing a lot of "high end" bling at the lowly unit level.
While I'm not opposed to a system like that, I think the bigger issue is not the wing commander who returns to a squadron as a Col, but the Lt Col who got promoted without ever leaving the squadron or even holding a primary position. We have plenty of those.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
But from a perception standpoint, nothing changes. Still a bunch of people wearing a lot of "high end" bling at the lowly unit level.
So?
At least those people wearing "high end" bling have been-there, done-that. Unlike now, when you can get that high end bling without ever leaving the local unit level just by putting time in.
Quote from: JeffDG on June 10, 2016, 03:00:41 PM
At least those people wearing "high end" bling have been-there, done-that. Unlike now, when you can get that high end bling without ever leaving the local unit level just by putting time in.
What difference does that make? Being on a roster at group or wing is not an automatic indication you
have a clue. Also, what about the slick-sleeves who take a wing level director job week 2?
At least with demotions, you always know who has what scope.
And the external perception is still the same - FGOs reporting (potentially) to CGOs or even NCOs.
The "real" world doesn't work that way. In most cases, LEO, FD, military, if you ascend you get promoted, and
if you descend there's a ghost outline of the stripes or grade you lost on your uniform.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 03:12:22 PM
The "real" world doesn't work that way. In most cases, LEO, FD, military, if you ascend you get promoted, and
if you descend there's a ghost outline of the stripes or grade you lost on your uniform.
In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.
Exception: National Guard. I work with someone who was an E-8 when he was a full timer for the Guard out of state, and when he came back he slipped into an E-7 billet.
Edit 2: Eclipse, I suppose this means you'll be turning in your oak leaves?
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.
It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
Edit 2: Eclipse, I suppose this means you'll be turning in your oak leaves?
The day things change, so will I.
In a CAP world that is properly manned and staffed, it won't need Lt Cols to go back to the units.
Quote from: JeffDG on June 10, 2016, 03:00:41 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
But from a perception standpoint, nothing changes. Still a bunch of people wearing a lot of "high end" bling at the lowly unit level.
So?
At least those people wearing "high end" bling have been-there, done-that. Unlike now, when you can get that high end bling without ever leaving the local unit level just by putting time in.
That's fine, but seems a lot of people have issues with the back-cycling Colonels. I don't mind taking on increasing responsibility to hit Major and above. I've come to accept that it's the reality in my wing. As long as it's applied evenly, I will cooperate and do my part. But the issue people have is with giving out Field Grade to former Military, or Captain to CFIs with little experience in CAP, on top of back-cycling Field grade officers to serve under Lts at the unit. Perhaps we need to make sure that Grade bumps happen faster for CCs? 1st Lt gets into the role and gets Probationary Captain until they serve X amount of time to make it permanent? Then give them the normal PD route to continue progressing?
"Grade bumps for Commanders" are part of the problem.
Jimmy's not a Captain today for "x" reason, too new, lack of PD, TIG clock, "can't be bothered" - CC job is vacant
so now he is one?
How about "be a Captain and that qualifies to be considered"?
That's the way it should be, especially in an organization where rank/grade means something.
I still think that the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary has it right when it comes to grade insignias, which indicate current or former office/duty assignment. I would very much like to see that in CAP, but I know it will never happen. Many (most?) members are too attached to their grades to give them up.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 04:59:08 PM
That's the way it should be, especially in an organization where rank/grade means something.
I still think that the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary has it right when it comes to grade insignias, which indicate current or former office/duty assignment. I would very much like to see that in CAP, but I know it will never happen. Many (most?) members are too attached to their grades to give them up.
I'm not sure why you think the Coast Guard Auxiliary is any different in that regard. When I attend my local flotilla meeting I'm still sitting in a room full of eagles and oak leaves while the meeting is being run by officers wearing bars.
They have slightly different insignias (could be the color of the letter; can't remember) for those holding office and those who formerly held offices. In addition, anyone with a grade insignia held an office commensurable with that grade insignia. Finally, they all remove their grade insignias when working with U.S. Coast Guard personnel. That's definitely different than they way we do things in CAP.
There are two advancements paths that you can bounce between in the CG AUX. One is elected leadership and the other is appointed staff. A different colored letter designation in the center of the insignia tells you the difference between a bird wearer who was elected to that level vs someone who was appointed to a staff job at that level. All auxiliarists regardless of position take off their bars, bottle caps, birds and stars. Instead they wear the generic aux device when they augment the active duty.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 04:47:00 PM
"Grade bumps for Commanders" are part of the problem.
Jimmy's not a Captain today for "x" reason, too new, lack of PD, TIG clock, "can't be bothered" - CC job is vacant
so now he is one?
How about "be a Captain and that qualifies to be considered"?
What if no Captain is available? It's really no different than the probationary time at LtCol. Presumably members who get the nod for that grade have proven themselves, so why have it probationary for a year?
The letter colors designate an elected (silver or blue) vs an appointed (red) officer. The office insignia is only required to be removed when augmenting the crew of a Coast Guard cutter. There is no requirement to remove it when otherwise working with Active or Reserve personnel. Past officers wear a special device on thier right pocket to indicate that they are not currently serving in the office indicated by the insignia being worn. Of course when you get to utility uniforms all bets are off since all insignia have a black letter and the past officer device is not worn on that uniform. The thing is that nobody seems to dwell on any of this. People just get things done.
Just like in CAP, the insignia only has meaning within the organization. Whether or not an outsider understands what any of it means is irrelevant. Everyone in CAP knows that CAP grade essentially indicates PD completion.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 04:24:30 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.
It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.
Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 04:47:00 PM
"Grade bumps for Commanders" are part of the problem.
Jimmy's not a Captain today for "x" reason, too new, lack of PD, TIG clock, "can't be bothered" - CC job is vacant
so now he is one?
How about "be a Captain and that qualifies to be considered"?
What if no Captain is available? It's really no different than the probationary time at LtCol. Presumably members who get the nod for that grade have proven themselves, so why have it probationary for a year?
The you find one and transfer him temporarily to the squadron until one can be found, or grown.
"Wait..."i'm not driving all the way over there just to be a unit CC for people i don't know..."
Bam, fail.
There's no way to fix this in a meaningful way that justifies the effort. The military can transfer a guy, or hold him back
indefinitely at their whim to "fix" their issues, businesses can find someone or sometimes leaves the job open and lean on the staff.
CAP can't do either of those even a little.
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 10, 2016, 06:43:13 PMJust like in CAP, the insignia only has meaning within the organization. Whether or not an outsider understands what any of it means is irrelevant. Everyone in CAP knows that CAP grade essentially indicates PD completion.
This. gets repeated and ignored by people trying to "fix" things.
Use that time to get more missions, retain some people alienated because you held them back, or go looking for the VIRBS that are dropping
off planes left and right, but don't waste your time "fixing" this.
Especially with the pile of stuff in a heap in the corner no one wants to even looks at.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 10, 2016, 07:18:31 PM
Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.
I suppose "common" is subjective, but in the myriad suburbs around me, there are plenty of instances of cops being deputy Chief one day and
back on the street the next - sometimes because of an election, sometimes because they just didn't want to bother with the admin stuff anymore.
I'll grant the Sgts getting knocked back w/o cause it more rare, if for no other reason then the unions, but it does happen.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 07:37:02 PM
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 10, 2016, 06:43:13 PMJust like in CAP, the insignia only has meaning within the organization. Whether or not an outsider understands what any of it means is irrelevant. Everyone in CAP knows that CAP grade essentially indicates PD completion.
This. gets repeated and ignored by people trying to "fix" things.
Use that time to get more missions, retain some people alienated because you held them back, or go looking for the VIRBS that are dropping
off planes left and right, but don't waste your time "fixing" this.
Especially with the pile of stuff in a heap in the corner no one wants to even looks at.
Then why do you keep advocating for changes?
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2016, 07:40:08 PM
Then why do you keep advocating for changes?
The changes I advocate for are deeper then the curtains, and further, if you're going to do something,
make it worth the time or don't bother.
Painting over rust makes things look nice for a short time, while actually making it worse.
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 10, 2016, 06:43:13 PM
Everyone in CAP knows that CAP grade essentially indicates PD completion.
Not according to CAPR 35-5, which requires the member to "be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."
As far as I'm concerned, members already get recognized for PD progression in the form of awards, certificates, ribbons, and specialty track badges. PD Levels are required for promotions, but promotions are not meant to recognize members for PD progression.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 09:41:31 PM
Not according to CAPR 35-5, which requires the member to "be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."
Well, that's the rub - it's treated from a practical level as PD by everyone, until it's time to approve them,
and then the discussion becomes all about "accepting new challenges, etc.", when nary a word was spoken
about that before.
That's one of the problems. And one of the reasons we have so many field grade officers who don't have a clue.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 10, 2016, 07:18:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 04:24:30 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.
It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.
Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.
Depends on the agency I guess. In my department we've had it happen quite a few times. I can name a few Sgts that are no longer Sgts. All disciplinary. Although I can't think of a Lt or above where that has happened. Most of the time they are eligible for retirement. We had a DC that get in trouble for getting an officer pregnant (he was married). They let him retire. I knew a captain that was wild crazy. All sorts of stories about her. She retired.
We may be slightly different as all of our ranks are through the personnel board.
Quote from: stillamarine on June 10, 2016, 11:32:03 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 10, 2016, 07:18:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 04:24:30 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.
It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.
Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.
Depends on the agency I guess. In my department we've had it happen quite a few times. I can name a few Sgts that are no longer Sgts. All disciplinary. Although I can't think of a Lt or above where that has happened. Most of the time they are eligible for retirement. We had a DC that get in trouble for getting an officer pregnant (he was married). They let him retire. I knew a captain that was wild crazy. All sorts of stories about her. She retired.
We may be slightly different as all of our ranks are through the personnel board.
Its actually pretty common..... that's just my experience having worked for 4 agencies in 2 states. Many times a demotion has nothing to do with corruption or illegal activity. Many times the person is promoted and simply fails the probationary term, makes a bad decision on a call, etc. The reasons they are demoted has nothing to really do with anything that may get them fired or sent to jail. Its just determined for whatever reason that they just no longer need to be a supervisor.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 11, 2016, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on June 10, 2016, 11:32:03 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 10, 2016, 07:18:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 04:24:30 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.
It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.
Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.
Depends on the agency I guess. In my department we've had it happen quite a few times. I can name a few Sgts that are no longer Sgts. All disciplinary. Although I can't think of a Lt or above where that has happened. Most of the time they are eligible for retirement. We had a DC that get in trouble for getting an officer pregnant (he was married). They let him retire. I knew a captain that was wild crazy. All sorts of stories about her. She retired.
We may be slightly different as all of our ranks are through the personnel board.
Its actually pretty common..... that's just my experience having worked for 4 agencies in 2 states. Many times a demotion has nothing to do with corruption or illegal activity. Many times the person is promoted and simply fails the probationary term, makes a bad decision on a call, etc. The reasons they are demoted has nothing to really do with anything that may get them fired or sent to jail. Its just determined for whatever reason that they just no longer need to be a supervisor.
Orrrr, the newly promoted Sgt that tells the deputy chief that hes a dumb ****, and the only reason he was promoted to DC was because he's the mayor's frat brother.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 11, 2016, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on June 10, 2016, 11:32:03 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 10, 2016, 07:18:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 04:24:30 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.
It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.
Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.
Depends on the agency I guess. In my department we've had it happen quite a few times. I can name a few Sgts that are no longer Sgts. All disciplinary. Although I can't think of a Lt or above where that has happened. Most of the time they are eligible for retirement. We had a DC that get in trouble for getting an officer pregnant (he was married). They let him retire. I knew a captain that was wild crazy. All sorts of stories about her. She retired.
We may be slightly different as all of our ranks are through the personnel board.
Its actually pretty common..... that's just my experience having worked for 4 agencies in 2 states. Many times a demotion has nothing to do with corruption or illegal activity. Many times the person is promoted and simply fails the probationary term, makes a bad decision on a call, etc. The reasons they are demoted has nothing to really do with anything that may get them fired or sent to jail. Its just determined for whatever reason that they just no longer need to be a supervisor.
I guess YMMV. I've rarely seen it or heard of it, except, as I said, for failure to complete probation, reduction to earned rank from appointed ranks following chief or sheriff changes or reduction in force. And, one other - I've seen a few voluntary reversions where guys just figure out that this isn't what they wanted.
Bad supervisory calls are usually learning experiences. Habitual bad supervisory calls merit disciplinary action, maybe followed by an "uncle" planting the reversion idea. In any case, all reasons combined, my experience was that it is not a common thing.
Agree vehemently with everything you said here wingnut55. +1
I'm sitting on 25 years of military service, if I was joining CAP and some commander like that wouldn't process the paperwork to match my military grade, I'd find a new squadron. Then I'd probably come back and make that guy's life miserable.
That said, EVERYONE should complete Level-1 as soon as humanly possible. For a field grade officer, L1 should be an hour of clicking through stuff - it's not difficult materiel.
Quote from: wingnut55 on June 04, 2016, 11:20:23 PM
So because of your personal opinion you refuse to follow CAP REG 35-5, It does not give you the Right to Refuse, or the right to add additional hoops to jump through at your discretion or fancy. For all the readers here, CAP rank is just Honorary to the Air Force, A CAP Officer must complete certain tasks, attend certain functions (such as a Wing convention), and so many years between promotions. Is it possible to be a Lt Col. in CAP with no High School degree, no skills, just good attendance at functions and limited hoops: Yes, I know of several. Ones has spent 30 years as a janitor, no High School. The Air Force thinks so little of our CAP rank that they require CAP to wear rank that is distinctively different from the military. And Military personnel are Instructed that they may chose to NOT Salute a CAP officer, because CAP rank is strictly Honorary, that's why Doctors, Lawyers, School Teachers, CFI's General Radio Telephone Operator license holders are "Given" advanced rank.
Contrast that with the requirements to be a Commissioned Officer in the US Military. Education, Education, Education, proven command ability, designated technical skills, advanced education, advanced military tactics and military organization schools, minimum time in grade, no adverse events (social and Legal), maintain a security clearance as needed, proven leadership and supervisory skills, adherence to regulations and directives, years of deployments away from family, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
So CAP wants to be part of the Military, But you decide what rules will be followed at the whim of a local commander, And I use that term with little respect, because in my over 40 year connection with CAP, most local commanders are chosen, solely because No one wants the job. The common joke is you pick the one who is sleeping.
Finally I would like to add that as a veteran you offend me, I suspect you are not former military. In my little world of CAP much of my flying has been in direct support of the US Military of all branches. Most of the members that I work with are retired Military, do you think a local commander made them do the Michael Jackson moon walk before they pinned on there "used" Major oak leaf ?
So how is that recruitment of Experienced Dedicated Military Veterans working out for you??? It's not ! maybe you should stop spitting on real military achievements. respect the rank, and not mandate through dictatorial rules your delusional ideals.
60 years ago 90% of CAP members never rose above Warrant Officer, all former Military officers retained their former rank, very few CAP officers were promoted above captain, but to improve membership they created the myth of promotion. You on the other hand believe what??
Mostly good information, but ...
I have watched more than a few retired AD officers join CAP and have poor experiences, because CAP isn't quite as military as where they came from. We resemble the AF, but there are differences in structure and procedures that need to be taken into account to be a successful CAP officer. These people couldn't seem to make those adjustments.
Locally, we like people getting advanced promotions to be participating, if not at, at least close to the level of their prospective rank. Settling to be the Chief Coffee Officer isn't going to go very far in getting that advanced promotion to Major.
Quote from: USACAP on August 27, 2016, 07:10:40 PM
I'm sitting on 25 years of military service, if I was joining CAP and some commander like that wouldn't process the paperwork to match my military grade, I'd find a new squadron. Then I'd probably come back and make that guy's life miserable.
A good demonstration of why CAP shouldn't automatically confer CAP grade to someone based on their experiences in another organization (Frankly, we shouldn't do it at all). I hope that you were not serious about what I highlighted in your comment, but that fact that you chose to say it indicates that you may not be a good fit for CAP.
Quote from: USACAP on August 27, 2016, 07:10:40 PM
Agree vehemently with everything you said here wingnut55. +1
I'm sitting on 25 years of military service, if I was joining CAP and some commander like that wouldn't process the paperwork to match my military grade, I'd find a new squadron. Then I'd probably come back and make that guy's life miserable.
That said, EVERYONE should complete Level-1 as soon as humanly possible. For a field grade officer, L1 should be an hour of clicking through stuff - it's not difficult materiel.
Quote from: wingnut55 on June 04, 2016, 11:20:23 PM
So because of your personal opinion you refuse to follow CAP REG 35-5, It does not give you the Right to Refuse, or the right to add additional hoops to jump through at your discretion or fancy. For all the readers here, CAP rank is just Honorary to the Air Force, A CAP Officer must complete certain tasks, attend certain functions (such as a Wing convention), and so many years between promotions. Is it possible to be a Lt Col. in CAP with no High School degree, no skills, just good attendance at functions and limited hoops: Yes, I know of several. Ones has spent 30 years as a janitor, no High School. The Air Force thinks so little of our CAP rank that they require CAP to wear rank that is distinctively different from the military. And Military personnel are Instructed that they may chose to NOT Salute a CAP officer, because CAP rank is strictly Honorary, that's why Doctors, Lawyers, School Teachers, CFI's General Radio Telephone Operator license holders are "Given" advanced rank.
Contrast that with the requirements to be a Commissioned Officer in the US Military. Education, Education, Education, proven command ability, designated technical skills, advanced education, advanced military tactics and military organization schools, minimum time in grade, no adverse events (social and Legal), maintain a security clearance as needed, proven leadership and supervisory skills, adherence to regulations and directives, years of deployments away from family, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
So CAP wants to be part of the Military, But you decide what rules will be followed at the whim of a local commander, And I use that term with little respect, because in my over 40 year connection with CAP, most local commanders are chosen, solely because No one wants the job. The common joke is you pick the one who is sleeping.
Finally I would like to add that as a veteran you offend me, I suspect you are not former military. In my little world of CAP much of my flying has been in direct support of the US Military of all branches. Most of the members that I work with are retired Military, do you think a local commander made them do the Michael Jackson moon walk before they pinned on there "used" Major oak leaf ?
So how is that recruitment of Experienced Dedicated Military Veterans working out for you??? It's not ! maybe you should stop spitting on real military achievements. respect the rank, and not mandate through dictatorial rules your delusional ideals.
60 years ago 90% of CAP members never rose above Warrant Officer, all former Military officers retained their former rank, very few CAP officers were promoted above captain, but to improve membership they created the myth of promotion. You on the other hand believe what??
If you showed up at my unit with that attitude I wouldn't even accept your membership application. Oh and I'll see your 25 years of service and raise you 6 more.
Well, that escalated quickly...
I feel like as a Lt Col who was a prior Navy O-5 I should be held accountable to O-5 standards. Not in terms of basic behavior, which should be standard across all senior members, but in terms of mentoring, taking on staff jobs, and managing projects independently. In the Navy, O-5s are expected to lead and be subject matter experts training junior officers. As an O-3 or below, you're expected to make mistakes and be seeking mentoring.
I'd like to see an expectation chart for senior member grades where people, including veterans, understand that if you come in as an O-5 we want to see you work at the O-5 level, and if you want to relax and be an O-3, then you should be willing to wear it.
I know it's probably impossible given the number of [added this to clarify that I'm not referring to the quality of our current O-5s] current members who are O-5, but as a prior service O-5 this seems intuitive to me: when you seem my grade insignia you should expect me to be a contributor.
At a minimum I'm surprised that there was no requirement to complete the CAP PD in order to make my grade permanent. Since there are no time-in-grade requirements once you've been promoted due to your previous military grade, only the service requirements for your specialty track limit how quickly you can achieve the professional development levels.
It would have seemed fair to me that my CAP grade was temporary until my CAP PD caught up (which it is now). Failure to complete CAP PD within a reasonable window could constitute a reason to revert to whatever permanent grade you should have based on your current PD.
Prior military could be waived from TIG requirements as well. I'm not even sure why we have these given that specialty tracks have service requirements (or at least cadet programs does). It makes sense to me that promotion credit should come from doing something for a certain amount of time versus merely being around.
Nice post, agree with pretty much the whole thing, and especially like this:
Quote from: Tim Day on August 31, 2016, 03:05:07 PMIn the Navy, O-5s are expected to lead and be subject matter experts training junior officers. As an O-3 or below, you're expected to make mistakes and be seeking mentoring.
I would say it is absolutely reasonable that CAP FGOs be expected to be SMEs, even to the point of demonstrating that somehow before promotion.
Not a "gotcha board" like some cadets try, just a direct conversation about the state of the program the respective member presents himself
as an SME in. Absent prior affiliation, there is no way a new military O-5 could function as a Wing+ Level CAP SME for at least a year or two, there's simply too many differences and too many cats.
Serving as an SME would also be a legitimate way "around" (for lack of a better term) the idea that CAP promotions should carry the expectation of higher responsibility. "Currently assigned to Spaatz Composite, however formally assigned as Finance and Logistics mentor to 7 CAP offices, including 2 at Group and one at Wing. OPRs for mentor role all show exceptional knowledge and willingness to assist...) (etc.).
That's literally what the OE, now Command track is supposed to be for, however sadly it is essentially ignored.
Quote from: Tim Day on August 31, 2016, 03:05:07 PM
It would have seemed fair to me that my CAP grade was temporary until my CAP PD caught up (which it is now). Failure to complete CAP PD within a reasonable window could constitute a reason to revert to whatever permanent grade you should have based on your current PD.
I completely agree with this. I have seen both sides of this. On one hand, we have a Captain that was given his rank for being a squadron CC (Thank God this has been reduced to 1st Lt IMO). He has not done any PD past level 1, only has a "none" rating, and he has been in for about 5 1/2 years. On the other side, we have a Captain that got her rank for her CFI. She has been in for just over 2 years and has completed level 3 and has a Master rating. One deserves to keep the rank, the other, not so much.
This is very reasonable and wise commentary Tim.
Well said.
Quote from: Tim Day on August 31, 2016, 03:05:07 PM
I feel like as a Lt Col who was a prior Navy O-5 I should be held accountable to O-5 standards. Not in terms of basic behavior, which should be standard across all senior members, but in terms of mentoring, taking on staff jobs, and managing projects independently. In the Navy, O-5s are expected to lead and be subject matter experts training junior officers. As an O-3 or below, you're expected to make mistakes and be seeking mentoring.
I'd like to see an expectation chart for senior member grades where people, including veterans, understand that if you come in as an O-5 we want to see you work at the O-5 level, and if you want to relax and be an O-3, then you should be willing to wear it.
I know it's probably impossible given the number of [added this to clarify that I'm not referring to the quality of our current O-5s] current members who are O-5, but as a prior service O-5 this seems intuitive to me: when you seem my grade insignia you should expect me to be a contributor.
At a minimum I'm surprised that there was no requirement to complete the CAP PD in order to make my grade permanent. Since there are no time-in-grade requirements once you've been promoted due to your previous military grade, only the service requirements for your specialty track limit how quickly you can achieve the professional development levels.
It would have seemed fair to me that my CAP grade was temporary until my CAP PD caught up (which it is now). Failure to complete CAP PD within a reasonable window could constitute a reason to revert to whatever permanent grade you should have based on your current PD.
Prior military could be waived from TIG requirements as well. I'm not even sure why we have these given that specialty tracks have service requirements (or at least cadet programs does). It makes sense to me that promotion credit should come from doing something for a certain amount of time versus merely being around.
In gratitude and recognition for their service to the country, I'd give any actively participating current, former or retired military member the highest grade for which they are eligible, as soon as they become eligible (I believe that's on completion of Level 1).
However, except for those that have a recent experience of the program (e.g., CAP-USAF active duty or reservists), I strongly feel they should not be asked or expected to take on command or significant leadership posts until they have some experience of the CAP program...1-2 years membership, ideally.
CAP may be part of the Total Force, but it's not part of the "Real Military" -- no pay, retirement points, tangible benefits, UCMJ, Article 15 and so forth. Leading in CAP is related to, but in some ways very different from, miitary leadership. I feel it's in the best interest of both CAP and the military individual who joins that sufficient time be permitted for orientation and familiarization.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on September 12, 2016, 12:39:24 AM
In gratitude and recognition for their service to the country, I'd give any actively participating current, former or retired military member the highest grade for which they are eligible, as soon as they become eligible (I believe that's on completion of Level 1).
However, except for those that have a recent experience of the program (e.g., CAP-USAF active duty or reservists), I strongly feel they should not be asked or expected to take on command or significant leadership posts until they have some experience of the CAP program...1-2 years membership, ideally.
CAP may be part of the Total Force, but it's not part of the "Real Military" -- no pay, retirement points, tangible benefits, UCMJ, Article 15 and so forth. Leading in CAP is related to, but in some ways very different from, miitary leadership. I feel it's in the best interest of both CAP and the military individual who joins that sufficient time be permitted for orientation and familiarization.
If you aren't willing to give them the responsibility then you shouldn't give them the rank either. As is often noted here, there are way too many higher ranking CAP members who know little about the program or contribute anything of significance. I would rather see some sort of accelerated promotion path (less time in grade) for these people than simply promoting them. The Air Force doesn't even do that for people who come from other services. I have known many people that came from the Army or Marines and had to give up 1-2 strips to wear Air Force blue.
Too many former/current military members join, get the promotion to Maj or above and then do nothing for CAP for one reason or another.
When I was at RSC in 2013, I wrote a white paper that recommended anyone who received advanced rank would be required to take SLS within 12 months of joining and CLC within 24 months.
Quote from: kwe1009 on September 12, 2016, 01:12:45 PM
If you aren't willing to give them the responsibility then you shouldn't give them the rank either. As is often noted here, there are way too many higher ranking CAP members who know little about the program or contribute anything of significance.
CAP is
not a "military appreciation society", it's a service in an of itself.
Those who served received grade and decorations in accordance with their contributions to that service.
CAP should act the same - contribute, receive decorations. Accept responsibility, receive grade.
Do neither, receive neither.
Nothing given for "free", is appreciated, and double-standards disincentive everyone.