CAP Talk

There has been some talk about our Officers having a college degree.  While I for one do not agree with the idea, I thought it would be interesting to see how much of the membership on this board is college educated.  I have attended college and took a few classes, but that was it.  Found it too trivial to worry about homework after being deployed to the gulf during the first war.

I am new to CAP, but it seems to me to be a good idea to require a college degree. Now, we should have some special system similar to the warrant officers in most services so that if a person is a pilot or other high trained specialty and does not have a college degree then he or she can still be an warrant officer.

Should be interesting.  One item of note:  I would suggest adding Masters or higher to the list.   ;)

I think we did this before, but it may have been on the other board.  We found a lot of people bemoaning the fact that our officers didn't have degrees on one thread and then came up with 9 or 10 pages of people checking in with their degrees on another...

40 units.....I needed 35 to work for my Department.  The EMT course put me over the top!

I dont plan on getting anymore unless for some reason I need to.  And "need to" AINT going to be CAP mandated!  Although I know some colleges will convert my ratings to college credit.

Im pretty satisfied with my Commercial-Instrument airplane, Private helicopter and Private Glider "degrees" ;D

Lord knows Ive spent enough money. I coulda had a Phd!

I personally enjoy being an illiterate knuckle-dragger.

12 years of college, four degrees, too many licenses and certifications to count, and that's not counting my Admiralship from Nebraska..

I got a BA in History.

Back in '84 had a full ride to University of Arkansas....EE.  Did poorly....did you know if you don't go to class or do any home work, or study, you FAIL classes? :o

Anyway...lost my ride.....went to a semester at the local community college until I joined the USAF.

Took some classes over the next 14 years or so but nothing much.  Then I discovered CLEP tests!  Got my CCAF AA degree in Electronics Technologies and then started working on my BA.  Graduated University of Maryland in 2005.  Lots of on-line courses.

I am now working on my masters of secondary education with University of Phoenix.

When my college instructors said you can miss three classes and it won't affect your grade, I took them at their word :)  I thought that meant that you were obligated to miss three classes.  After playing for three quarters and almost getting thrown out, I worked all summer to earn enough money to go back in the fall.  That's when I discovered that going to class does wonders for your ability to get good grades.  That's the fortunate thing about that experience.  The unfortunate thing was my Dad realized I could earn enough money during the summer to pay for a full quarters worth of tuition, books, room & board, so I got to do that every summer.

I don't think that a college degree should necessarily be required, but it's embarrassing to have field grade officers that can hardly compose a coherent paragraph or communicate clearly.  Some standards need to apply.

Quote from: ELTHunter on May 18, 2007, 12:48:28 AM
I don't think that a college degree should necessarily be required, but it's embarrassing to have field grade officers that can hardly compose a coherent paragraph or communicate clearly.  Some standards need to apply.

I've seen lawyers and other professionals for which that could be considered a valid compliant.. Don't forget spelling, either.  I've encountered a couple of staff seargents in my current unit that couldn't sort out homonyms to save their sorry behinds.. Watching them try to write/re-write/re-write/re-write awards packages was excruciating.. But what the heck do I know, I'm just an old, civilian guy.  A modicum of common sense wouldn't hurt either.

V/R,

Quote from: Pylon on May 17, 2007, 07:30:01 PM
Should be interesting.  One item of note:  I would suggest adding Masters or higher to the list.   ;)

Done.  Sorry, didn't mean to overlook anybody.  Simply my lack of college experience to remember the degrees.

BA History, Teachers cert Secondary Ed Social Studies with some credits towards an M. Ed. Did absolutely nothing with it except get a now lapsed EMT B Instructor rating. The I got a Associated Applied Sciences - Nursing (RN) which pays my bills. I did better going backwards on the degree ladder. I now hold specialty Certification in Emergency Nursing,  EMS nurse, ACLS Instructor  yadda yadda.

Sort of undercuts the collection of credits for officership.

MSN (RN), ACLS-I, BLS-I, PALS-I, NALS-I, TNCC, C-4, yadda, yadda, yadda...

Quote from: LTC_Gadget on May 18, 2007, 02:30:29 AM
I've seen lawyers and other professionals for which that could be considered a valid compliant.. Don't forget spelling, either.

Ahem.  ;)

Mike

I've been a college student off and on, full time and part tim since 1997.  I've got an associates and 18 credtis shy of my BS in Criminal Justice and Publice Safety.  I take a class here and there.  Was planning to graduate this December but some things got in the way. 

Quote from: LTC_Gadget on May 18, 2007, 02:30:29 AMI've encountered a couple of staff seargents in my current unit that couldn't sort out homonyms to save their sorry behinds..

Hey...we're not supposed to ask about those sort of words, so long as they don't tell! >:D

A.A. in General Studies
B.S. in Criminology

I will complete my first M.S. in December (I have one more class to take).

I have to get a second M.S. because the Ph.D program (Criminology) that I want to get into will not accept my first one. I only have to take 24 more hours to get my second M.S.

I am sick of school.

A.A.T. in Manufacturing Technology (work related) 2003
A.A.S. in Business Administration 2004
A.A.S. in Philosophy (just so I could argue!) 2005
B.S.    in Human Resources (new work related) 2007
MBA   currently in progress (just started)

My employeer Procter and Gamble pays (reimbursed after passing class with atleast a C) for my education 100% up to the Masters Level as long as it is somewhat work related. They wont pay for Psychology or Education Degrees but they have paid for most of the above. I figure I will use the money as long as they will continue to pay.

B.A., LaGrange College, 1989
M.Ed., LaGrange College, 1996
Ed.S., Columbus State University, 2001

And I'm working on my Ed.D. through online courses.

Jack

B.A. Biology and Chemistry 1983
M.D. 1989

Completing a Master's Degree in Health Services Management.

Dr. Dave

AAS in Nursing
BA in Health Care Adminstration
MS in Quality Management

Of course, the survey isn't particularly valid for CAP as a whole - there is a correlation between education level and internet use.  So this group is probably skewed toward  the high end of the education scale.

Well, I see no problem with allowing associates degree recipients to get a commission. Even the Army allows this. That is what the military junior colleges are for, and same with National Guard commission--usually only requiring 90 hours.

My whole point is we should mirror the Armed Forces where practical if we want more support. Of course, if the CAP is bursting with too many officers and the BA requirement didn't work, then by all means up it to master's and so on.

Quote from: Dragoon on May 18, 2007, 03:30:29 PM
Of course, the survey isn't particularly valid for CAP as a whole - there is a correlation between education level and internet use.  So this group is probably skewed toward  the high end of the education scale.

The same thought occurred to me yesterday.  That's probably as 'telling' as anything. 

Our first 'degree of separation' from the general public is our membership in CAP.  The general public doesn't 'volunteer' or, in deference to other threads, choose to be an 'unpaid professional' anything, so we're already kinda different to start with. 

The 'second degree of separation' is our apparent interest in technology, possession of higher-than-average analytical thinking skills, and higher-than-average verbal and writing skills, and as a generalized group, those of us here are already in the upper percentiles.. It's the rest of the herd that we're worried about; or as I like to call it, the great unwashed that I sometimes have to stand in line with at Wal-Mart..

V/R,

OK...then how does that explain me being here ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: LTC_Gadget link=topic=2082.msg35774#msg35774It's the rest of the herd that we're worried about; or as I like to call it, the great unwashed that I sometimes have to stand in line with at Wal-Mart..

(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_7_8.gif)
Par done ez moy? Wha chu takin' 'bout?

A.S. Criminal Justice
B.A. Journalism
B.S. Public Administration
M.A. History, minor in Journalism Management

Since durn near everyone in CAP is an officer, any education requirement on being an officer would remove large chunks of our membership.  Or at least limit them to being "SMs for life."  I don't think that would go over very well.

If we change CAP so that everyone ISN'T an officer, then requirements could come in to play.  But first we'd have to decide what officers do, and what NCOs/EMs/Flight Officers do.  If they all do the same thing, then rank doesn't matter, and why do we care if someone's got college or not?

Unless you just want some folks, who have college to get saluted by their buddies who do the same job but don't have college.  I think that's a non-starter.

Wwe've gone round and round on grade structure with no clear workable concept.  There are unique challenges in a volunteer organization the we would have to address.

For example, if we decide only officers can command units, then we'd have to close down any squadron that didn't have an officer.  So if no one met the educational requirement,  that unit would be out of luck.

And since our members ar choose to give up a command job and go back to being the squadron assistant supply "officer", would they give their bars back and put on stripes?  Or be an 0-2 doing E-3 work?


It makes sense to first figure out a grade structure that fits the organization, and then figure out the requirements for each grade.

Officer, NCO, whatever --- that and $2 dollars gets me on the bus.

We keep discussing it like it matters. We are not Military Officers. We are civilians. Our civilian equivalent would be like Assistant Manager, Manager, Director, etc.

A Director who good at his/her job may only have a HS Diploma but he is still in charge.

We respect the C&C of the Air Force but the more we try to fit our "square peg" organization into the "round hole" the less time we have to fix the really important things like recruitment, training, retention, serving the community, mentoring the cadets.

I'm not against getting grade but it does not mean anything except how hard that people is commitment to their professional development (I know that exceptions apply).

Bo you realize that one-half of the Bachelor types are listed as B.S.?


Just Wondering

Quote from: RogueLeader on May 18, 2007, 07:07:21 PM
Bo you realize that one-half of the Bachelor types are listed as B.S.?

Soooo, are you trying to imply that that makes them qualified/eligible for appointment to corporate staff?  ;D

I guess the big question is - what do we want grade to represent?

While some say it doesn't mean anything, many get cranky about getting rid of it.  You'll also hear grumbles when changes are suggested that might limit their ability to promote.

I think using it in a manner different than the Real Military leads to confusion without many benefits in return.  Substituting an all ranks "Auxiliarist Badge" or grade insignia outside of current AF usage could eliminate a point of contention with the military and perhaps bring us closer to uniformity.

Quote from: Dragoon on May 18, 2007, 06:15:08 PM
Since durn near everyone in CAP is an officer, any education requirement on being an officer would remove large chunks of our membership.  Or at least limit them to being "SMs for life."  I don't think that would go over very well.

If we change CAP so that everyone ISN'T an officer, then requirements could come in to play.  But first we'd have to decide what officers do, and what NCOs/EMs/Flight Officers do.  If they all do the same thing, then rank doesn't matter, and why do we care if someone's got college or not?

Unless you just want some folks, who have college to get saluted by their buddies who do the same job but don't have college.  I think that's a non-starter.

Wwe've gone round and round on grade structure with no clear workable concept.  There are unique challenges in a volunteer organization the we would have to address.

For example, if we decide only officers can command units, then we'd have to close down any squadron that didn't have an officer.  So if no one met the educational requirement,  that unit would be out of luck.

And since our members ar choose to give up a command job and go back to being the squadron assistant supply "officer", would they give their bars back and put on stripes?  Or be an 0-2 doing E-3 work?


It makes sense to first figure out a grade structure that fits the organization, and then figure out the requirements for each grade.

By definition, we'd be talking about having a grade category other than officers, we'll assume AF enlisted grade structure for the sake of discussion.

I get that this is a volunteer org. You should know what you're getting into, then once in it you don't get to do whatever you want. Not getting paid doesn't grant you the authority to determine your own fate, and getting paid doesn't take it away from you. Joining the organization obligates you to service according to a military style system, command structure, and orders. You'll follow that system till you decide to leave the org, and that's it.

In other words, a Maj Sq CC should not be able to resign command & take up an E-3 position just cause want to. Who cares what they want? Their boss decides what position they take, which should be based on their experience, expertise, availability, etc (total package).

That's the way it's written in regs & supposed to work. What tends to happen is we get units so desperate for manpower that they'll sell their soul & hand over command powers to the new member to get them & keep them. Well, maybe that's one of the problems that needs to be addressed. Maybe you shouldn't be calling it a Sq when is'really the 12 cadets & 8 adults that actually show up from your 65 on the books, and maybey you shouldn't be asking that tiny unit to do the same administrative work as an AF Sq. So redesignate everything as flights that just do the most minimal funcitons, sharing staff to form a Sq (like a mini-Gp), etc up the chain.

Plus auto assign field grade out of Sqs to Wg/Gp level, if you don't like it then don't take the promotion. Then on the enlisted side you are primarily an operator with little administrative responsibility. Amn grades have no responsibility but the mission, Jr NCOs help run people as: team leaders, training directors, instructors, etc. mid-grade/SNCOs help manage local operations, can be flight leaders (same as you current Sq CC but with a third of the work/responsibility). Upper level NCOs are advisors... AND I don't know about elections vs appointed necessarily, but a 1Sgt system to represent adults to mgmt the way CAC does for cadets.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on May 18, 2007, 08:12:46 PM
I think using it in a manner different than the Real Military leads to confusion without many benefits in return.  Substituting an all ranks "Auxiliarist Badge" or grade insignia outside of current AF usage could eliminate a point of contention with the military and perhaps bring us closer to uniformity.

I think that's absolutely wrong. You want to create your own grade insignia & you think that'd lead to less confusion?

We're a component of the AF. That can be debated in some ways & areas, but that's what we've always been at heart & almost everyone would like to have any necessary changes made so it'd be indisputable letter of the law too. We not only need to use a military grade system, we absolutely must. i'm not sure in fact they'd allow us to drop it.


Purpose of a degree/education level:
Education doesn't make you smart, it teaches you how to learn. Having a certain level is proof to others that you can learn complex stuff fast & then apply it effectively. It's a process you you paying someone else to weed out the people that don't have that capability. It doesn't mean that no one ever slips thru the cracks, or that some people w/o formal education can't deal with complex stuff as well or better than some educated folks. But on the whole it's a good evaluation tool. When you're looking at a total package of a person & deciding if you should invest time/money/resources into training them for something complex & highly challenging, then it's certainly a valid thing to look at & set standards for. We do spend resources on training, we do require people to pick up complex stuff fast, and we do need to be smart about who we bring into mgmt.

Quote from: DNall on May 18, 2007, 09:06:08 PM
.Maybe you shouldn't be calling it a Sq when is'really the 12 cadets & 8 adults that actually show up from your 65 on the books, and maybey you shouldn't be asking that tiny unit to do the same administrative work as an AF Sq. So redesignate everything as flights that just do the most minimal funcitons, sharing staff to form a Sq (like a mini-Gp), etc up the chain. 

I've been saying this for 20 years....maybe someone will start listening!

Under this system, there could be field grade officers at the "squadron" level (above local unit level), in fact probably should be in command and operations roles.

Flights could be commanded by anyone MSgt through Capt.

Education might be used to accelerate progression through grades, but should not disqualify committed members from promoting with sufficient training and experience to do the job ....in other words, with a HS education you could still be a lt col eventually.....but probably not as quickly as someone with bachelors or masters degree.

I'd also really like to see us use flight officer grades as warrant ranks for those who have special skills/qualifications, but choose not to accept command or staff responsibilities (e.g., the folks who want to do one thing to the exclusion of all else CAP).

Quote from: DNall on May 18, 2007, 09:06:08 PMIn other words, a Maj Sq CC should not be able to resign command & take up an E-3 position just cause want to. Who cares what they want? Their boss decides what position they take, which should be based on their experience, expertise, availability, etc (total package).

Are you saying we should assign jobs to people and if they don't like it they quit?

If that is not a recipe for disaster I don't know what is.

I am another component of the AF - the Civil Servant.

I can supervise (not command) airmen or officers and be supervised by officers.  They can send me to faraway places, even issue me weapons and armor.  However, though I might be considered a Lt Col for housing purposes, I don't wear oak leaves nor do I have the authority of an officer.  If I put on BDU's and pretended to be an officer based on my GS I'd lose the respect of my co-workers.

We are the auxiliary - trying to dress up like real officers when we're not isn't going to get us respect.  It doesn't make it any better to put stripes on either.  Putting on CAP specific grade or a generic Aux badge would stake out a position like civilians - professionals who are part of the team but not full up Airmen.

The whole "you get one choice in CAP - in or out - after that you're NHQ's for life" is a radical change.  I quess the question is how is the mission advanced by such an inflexible attitude?

Quote from: lordmonar on May 18, 2007, 11:34:52 PM

Quote from: DNall on May 18, 2007, 09:06:08 PMIn other words, a Maj Sq CC should not be able to resign command & take up an E-3 position just cause want to. Who cares what they want? Their boss decides what position they take, which should be based on their experience, expertise, availability, etc (total package).

Are you saying we should assign jobs to people and if they don't like it they quit?
If that is not a recipe for disaster I don't know what is.

Strictly speaking YES, and the member should NOT be led to believe at any point that they have a choice in the matter. Now, certainly you speak with them & TRY to accomodate their desires if/when you can, but you do not assign a new memebrs as ES officer when you have someone better fo rthe job & a big opening at supply that needs filling. You may tell them you need them at supply, they need to work on that for six months, and learn the job, then they can keep doing it as their primary for another year, but you'll also assign them to assist ES if they still want to so they can learn that job too, and then later you'll try to get them in it. It is needs of the service & tehy should know that. Real officers don't get to choose their specialty in advance, or assigned positions later. They certainly get input & can look for openings to inquire about, but they are never the decision maker, and neither are our members.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on May 19, 2007, 03:29:58 AM
We are the auxiliary - trying to dress up like real officers when we're not isn't going to get us respect.  It doesn't make it any better to put stripes on either.  Putting on CAP specific grade or a generic Aux badge would stake out a position like civilians - professionals who are part of the team but not full up Airmen.

The branch tape accomplishes that nicely. If it said "US Air Force" then I'd agree we need to put the cutout back with the grade, or some other designator. HOWEVER, the branch tape makes it clear that we are not claiming to be in the AF. Even if it said "USAF Auxiliary" it would be clearly different & distinguishable.

The other half of that thought process is the faker montra. We need to better legitimize our grade by meeting similiar standards & with real training of better selected individuals to produce similiarly capable personnel (commensurate with grade).

QuoteThe whole "you get one choice in CAP - in or out - after that you're NHQ's for life" is a radical change.  I quess the question is how is the mission advanced by such an inflexible attitude?

It's not new. After WWII, all thru the cold war, for most of our history people have come to the org thinking of it like the military & not behaving as though they could dictate terms or hold their volunteerism over our head in blackmail to get what they want. It's not inflexible at all. As I said, members get considerable input & mgmt should be MUCH better, but ultimately the org tolerates that you are here to serve CAP not your own desires, and if you can't get in line with that, then good order & discipline are right out the window at teh start & if that's the case then we might as well close up shop cause we can't do any good for anyone.

DNall,

On a few occasions I had to 'persuade' officers to accept command of a squadron.

When you push someone into it who does not want it at all -- or pressure someone who wants out of command to stay on when he/she has had enough -- you may think it's 'for the good of the outfit', but from firsthand experience I can tell you that it is precisely the 'outfit' and its people that suffer.

The first time my wing/group/unit commander says to me "You got to take this job" is when he will find that he is talking to the back of the door.

When I volunteered for the USAF it was with a full understanding that until my term of enlistment was up...it was the last thing I had the power to "volunteer" for.  I did this knowing why and knowing that I would be compensated for this level of volunteerism. 

YOU JUST CAN'T DO THAT IN A REAL VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATION!

You certainly can set standards, and not take volunteers....but you can't treat CAP members like they were in the military.  Sorry....let's not pretend....you just can't and any one in power who thinks they can will find that they are in a squadron with only one person in it.

If I had way more pilots than I needed (I wish) and a new pilot showed up at the door, I probably wouldn't tell him that he couldn't be a CAP pilot, but I would be honest with him that he would be very low down on the totem pole in terms of getting a chance to fly and that he might get more "action" in another specialty for the time being. 

Quote from: RiverAux on May 20, 2007, 01:57:30 AM
If I had way more pilots than I needed (I wish) and a new pilot showed up at the door, I probably wouldn't tell him that he couldn't be a CAP pilot, but I would be honest with him that he would be very low down on the totem pole in terms of getting a chance to fly and that he might get more "action" in another specialty for the time being. 

Or you could suggest to this pilot that undertaking a staff job nobody wants could
move him closer to the head of the line to get in the pilot's seat!

Quote from: DNall on May 19, 2007, 05:18:38 AM

Quote from: ddelaney103 on May 19, 2007, 03:29:58 AM
We are the auxiliary - trying to dress up like real officers when we're not isn't going to get us respect.  It doesn't make it any better to put stripes on either.  Putting on CAP specific grade or a generic Aux badge would stake out a position like civilians - professionals who are part of the team but not full up Airmen.

The branch tape accomplishes that nicely. If it said "US Air Force" then I'd agree we need to put the cutout back with the grade, or some other designator. HOWEVER, the branch tape makes it clear that we are not claiming to be in the AF. Even if it said "USAF Auxiliary" it would be clearly different & distinguishable.

The other half of that thought process is the faker montra. We need to better legitimize our grade by meeting similiar standards & with real training of better selected individuals to produce similiarly capable personnel (commensurate with grade).

I have no idea how many times I've had to deal this "AF wannabe" attitude.

We will never be the equal of military officers - wearing their grade insignia smacks of "dress up."

But there are always people who truly believe that if we just tighten standards (though, ironically enough, the proposed standards always cut off others from officer grade - never themselves) we'll be respected equals.  It ain't gonna happen.  We don't have the authorities or responsibilities of the military and never will.

It reminds me of some of the "bad old days" on the AuxPower forum.  People would come up with officer basic courses that would be the magic key to metal grade insignia and the respect they believe we deserve.

I would be happy to trade in my oak leaves for FO-4 grade right now.  The only reasons I have grade is I needed it for Group Command and a story I heard from a sqdn mate.

He knew an IC who never bothered to promote until a family member of a search target asked him if the AF didn't think the search's chance of success was good.  The family member based this on the fact that yesterday's IC was a Lt Col and today it was a Capt.

We use grade in a way totally at odds with the way the military does it.  We could try to totally revamp the system to bring it into line with the AF, or we could just let it go.  Be the CAP/USAFAUX - no more, no less.

Finally, I don't get your "faker montra" comment - would you care to elaborate?

Quote from: brasda91 on May 17, 2007, 06:48:46 PM
...I thought it would be interesting to see how much of the membership on this board is college educated.

I thought the education level of our members was the premise of the thread, not CAP's rank structure, or our uniforms.

BS Aviation Management
Currently working torward Masters in Computer Information Systems

Oh, threads frequently degenerate into urinating competitions about uniforms, rank, and officer/NCO comparisons.   :o  Nothing new. :(

OK, I'll play along.

Associate of Arts- Santa Fe Community College
Bachelor Of Science in Electrical Engineering - University of Florida
Minor in Business Administration University of Florida

Hmmmm...my turn

I took Algebra twice in High School before finally passing it with a C-.  And never had a free summer because I was always in summer school.  I think that report card is still on my mothers refrigerator.  YESSSSS!

I joined the Marines when I was 17, so I think my teachers just sent me on my way.  Of course, I was the only kid in my school of 3000 that could take their dates flying!

ok..... C/D student all through High School, barely got into a state university.  Grautated as a 3.5 student with a BS in Business Admin, BS in Finance, BS in Pol. Science.  Did ROTC, while I was there, Army paid for my masters in Economics and MBA.  3 weeks away from getting my doctorate in International Business from Penn State (distance ed). 

So....I have college experiance, but doubt it matters in either CAP or the Military.  I learned the majority of what I needed to know to lead as an Army Officer in my Officer Basic Course and the Captains Career Course.  I am not the smartest guy.....and it took me 5 and a half years to graduate with my bachelor degrees, and another 3 years for my MBA/Masters.  I have to say out of all of it, the Doctorate/thesis program Penn State offers online is by fay easier than my undergraduate work.  After all of this I am done with school!   

I'm starting to think that even though college degrees aren't necessary, leadership training should be. Especially concerning how it affects subordinates. And a two day course won't cut it. We shouldn't be trying to necessarily mirror military officer standards, but if some of their training will make us better leaders then I think we should be doing it. And before someone gets hung up on marching seniors around, don't bother, it's not even on the radar.

No to degrees, yes to training our people to lead. And that should include whatever is necessary to be good leaders to both seniors and cadets.

Im envious of all the free time some of you seem to have ;D

I'll toss it in there, too...

Dual B.A. in history and French
Certificate of French language proficiency, University of Paris - Sorbonne

Okay, I know this is off topic, but the conversation/posts have drifted from education to rank and how all of this helps in making leaders and comparison to the real Air Force (as usual), well, from my experience, one of the things the Air Force looks for in leadership is if an officer is aircrew.  Almost all commanders in the Air Force are pilots with the occasional Navigator or Weapons Operations Officer and the very occasional Missile Man.  If you aren't wearing some kind of wings, chances are you won't lead.  So, do we need to start a new tread asking how many of our people are aircrew?  Actually, I have enjoyed this thread as it has tended to show a majority of the responders have a college degree and I have always felt that CAP'ers are a bunch of overachievers that are hardworking and still find time to give back to their country and community.  I have always been told that if you want something done, give it to the person that is busy and not to the person sitting on their duff.  Our poll supports this position.  Well Done..

Quote from: capchiro on May 21, 2007, 02:04:26 PM
Almost all commanders in the Air Force are pilots with the occasional Navigator or Weapons Operations Officer and the very occasional Missile Man.  If you aren't wearing some kind of wings, chances are you won't lead. 

Would you really say this is the case?  I would say this is true in terms of the most "visible" commands, but not necessarily most commands.  The chances that the services squadron commander is a pilot is pretty slim. The intel squadrons commander is not going to be a pilot or aircrew. The CE squadron commander is not going to be a pilot.  I would say that the majority of commanders in the Air Force are not pilots or aircrew.

I would say if you are talking about "operational" commands, then you are probably right.

I finally graduated with an AAS-IT and 3.85 gpa.

Being a traditional non-traditional student (I grad. hs many, many moons ago), I take a certain amount of pride in this. Next step is to round out a few courses (Eng Comp II  :P) then head for a bachelor's degree.

Quote from: capchiro on May 21, 2007, 02:04:26 PM
Almost all commanders in the Air Force are pilots with the occasional Navigator or Weapons Operations Officer and the very occasional Missile Man.  If you aren't wearing some kind of wings, chances are you won't lead.

AKA Universal Management Badge.  ;D

I am new to CAP and the Air Force atmosphere, but I suppose you can compare this to the Army with which I have experience and the fact that for the most part, you only see combat arms officers reach the general officer ranks.

Yes you will have unit commanders of the various support and service support branches, but as you get up there, you are very limited if you are not combat arms.

Quote from: gallagheria on May 21, 2007, 04:09:41 PM
I am new to CAP and the Air Force atmosphere, but I suppose you can compare this to the Army with which I have experience and the fact that for the most part, you only see combat arms officers reach the general officer ranks.

Yes you will have unit commanders of the various support and service support branches, but as you get up there, you are very limited if you are not combat arms.

I too am more familiar with the Army, but I would imagine it's similar in the other services.  It's not so much that you aren't allowed to hold those positions without the experience, but it's very unlikely.  When those commands are assigned, it's much more likely to go to someone who has the experience.

For instance, you're not going to give the command of a combat arms unit to a logistics officer unless that's your only choice.  That officer may do well, but he has no experience to show that.

 :)  Wow......pilots got everything going forthem!

Quote from: capchiro on May 21, 2007, 02:04:26 PM
  Almost all commanders in the Air Force are pilots with the occasional Navigator or Weapons Operations Officer and the very occasional Missile Man.  If you aren't wearing some kind of wings, chances are you won't lead.  So, do we need to start a new tread asking how many of our people are aircrew? 

Aircrew --- particularly pilots -- in CAP generally want to fly.

Many of them ONLY want to fly.

Some who have become involved in command and staff responsibilities at wing or higher level regret the fact because it takes them, to a  large degree, out of the aircraft.

To some extent the same holds true for observers and scanners.

If CAP were to restrict command to our equivalent of 'rated' officers, we would have great difficulty finding sufficient officers for all the commands.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 21, 2007, 02:24:37 PM

Quote from: capchiro on May 21, 2007, 02:04:26 PM
Almost all commanders in the Air Force are pilots with the occasional Navigator or Weapons Operations Officer and the very occasional Missile Man.  If you aren't wearing some kind of wings, chances are you won't lead. 

Would you really say this is the case?  I would say this is true in terms of the most "visible" commands, but not necessarily most commands.  The chances that the services squadron commander is a pilot is pretty slim. The intel squadrons commander is not going to be a pilot or aircrew. The CE squadron commander is not going to be a pilot.  I would say that the majority of commanders in the Air Force are not pilots or aircrew.

I would say if you are talking about "operational" commands, then you are probably right.

Righto.. The comm squadron, CE or Mission Support squadrons seldom see a pilot in command, unless he's had designator change for some reason..

In my regular job, I worked for a Col who was an academy grad, had already had one trip to the Pentagon, and went down to a major maintenance depot in TX as a one-star.  He later got his second.  In AF Materiel Command, I don't know that wings are a 'hard' requirement, either..

V/R,

Quote from: LTC_Gadget on May 21, 2007, 09:05:10 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 21, 2007, 02:24:37 PM

Quote from: capchiro on May 21, 2007, 02:04:26 PM
Almost all commanders in the Air Force are pilots with the occasional Navigator or Weapons Operations Officer and the very occasional Missile Man.  If you aren't wearing some kind of wings, chances are you won't lead. 

Would you really say this is the case?  I would say this is true in terms of the most "visible" commands, but not necessarily most commands.  The chances that the services squadron commander is a pilot is pretty slim. The intel squadrons commander is not going to be a pilot or aircrew. The CE squadron commander is not going to be a pilot.  I would say that the majority of commanders in the Air Force are not pilots or aircrew.

I would say if you are talking about "operational" commands, then you are probably right.

Righto.. The comm squadron, CE or Mission Support squadrons seldom see a pilot in command, unless he's had designator change for some reason..

V/R,

That's because pilots can't speak Comm  :D

I put several years towards a B.A. in History and minor in Music but never was able to finish it.
- And personally I'd be afraid to, as my chances of getting through ROTC are better then OCS, someone tell me if Im wrong-

I do have alot of credits from a local C.C. towards Emergency Services: fire, hazmat, emt etc.   I could possible swing my two transcripts back and forth to make an associates in the image of Frankenstien.

Quote from: davedove on May 21, 2007, 04:40:17 PM

Quote from: gallagheria on May 21, 2007, 04:09:41 PM
I am new to CAP and the Air Force atmosphere, but I suppose you can compare this to the Army with which I have experience and the fact that for the most part, you only see combat arms officers reach the general officer ranks.

Yes you will have unit commanders of the various support and service support branches, but as you get up there, you are very limited if you are not combat arms.

I too am more familiar with the Army, but I would imagine it's similar in the other services.  It's not so much that you aren't allowed to hold those positions without the experience, but it's very unlikely.  When those commands are assigned, it's much more likely to go to someone who has the experience.

For instance, you're not going to give the command of a combat arms unit to a logistics officer unless that's your only choice.  That officer may do well, but he has no experience to show that.

Is that like giving the Command of Ground forces in Iraq and Afghanistan to a Navy Guy.  When was the last time he actually left his boat and invaded another country. 

According to the poll, lots of Grads in CAP. . .

Degree required, or at least some College for advancement?  The idea has merit, but it wouldn't fly: might be seen as a barrier to prospective members.

What alot of folks don't realize is that many AFIADL courses are sources of ACE-recommended credits, particularly SOS.  ACSC is worth 8-12 at the grad level.

Me? Got my degree on the "ten-year plan."  Slow & steady wins the race.

Quote from: O-Rex on May 22, 2007, 03:08:57 AM
What alot of folks don't realize is that many AFIADL courses are sources of ACE-recommended credits, particularly SOS.  ACSC is worth 8-12 at the grad level.

And I plan to use them. Actually, ACSC has a DL variant that IS a graduate degree. CAP members should be eligible for it early-mid 2008.

Well would we be eligible if we have only an Associates? Or only a few college credits?
Would the Masters turn INTO an Associates or a Bachelors?

Or would those without a BS BA be forced to enroll in the current ACSC course?

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 22, 2007, 05:37:22 AM
Well would we be eligible if we have only an Associates? Or only a few college credits?

I looked through the site and couldn't find anything that addresses that. Generally, in order to be an officer in the Air Force, you already have to have a bachelor's degree. They will probably address the issue of CAP officers without bachelor's degrees being eligible for the Master's program as it gets closer to mid to early 2008 (although I doubt they would offer it to personnel without bachelor's degrees).

Quote
Would the Masters turn INTO an Associates or a Bachelors?

Most likely not. The program is accredited for master's degrees. Associate's and bachelor's degrees are fundamentally different from a master's degree (bachelor's degree is more generalized, while a master's degree is more specialized).

Quote
Or would those without a BS BA be forced to enroll in the current ACSC course?

I'd lay my money on that.

Also, those who already have a master's degree will be ineligible to enroll in the master's program. Which sucks....because I was planning on going through the master's program for ACSC. I will have my first master's degree this December. I guess I will go through the regular program.

Quote from: DeputyDog on May 18, 2007, 09:09:18 AM
A.A. in General Studies
B.S. in Criminology

I will complete my first M.S. in December (I have one more class to take).

I have to get a second M.S. because the Ph.D program (Criminology) that I want to get into will not accept my first one. I only have to take 24 more hours to get my second M.S.

I am sick of school.

I can now add a "M.S. in Administrative Studies- Criminal Justice Option" to my list (as of last week).  ;D

Quote from: DeputyDog on December 21, 2007, 07:59:30 AM
I can now add a "M.S. in Administrative Studies- Criminal Justice Option" to my list (as of last week).  ;D

Congrats

Quote from: DeputyDog on May 22, 2007, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 22, 2007, 05:37:22 AM
Well would we be eligible if we have only an Associates? Or only a few college credits?

I looked through the site and couldn't find anything that addresses that. Generally, in order to be an officer in the Air Force, you already have to have a bachelor's degree. They will probably address the issue of CAP officers without bachelor's degrees being eligible for the Master's program as it gets closer to mid to early 2008 (although I doubt they would offer it to personnel without bachelor's degrees).

Quote
Would the Masters turn INTO an Associates or a Bachelors?

Most likely not. The program is accredited for master's degrees. Associate's and bachelor's degrees are fundamentally different from a master's degree (bachelor's degree is more generalized, while a master's degree is more specialized).

Quote
Or would those without a BS BA be forced to enroll in the current ACSC course?

I'd lay my money on that.

Also, those who already have a master's degree will be ineligible to enroll in the master's program. Which sucks....because I was planning on going through the master's program for ACSC. I will have my first master's degree this December. I guess I will go through the regular program.

My recommendation was:

1.  2 years of college/Associate degree, OR

2.  Completion of a trade school consisting of at least 900 clock hours duration., OR

3.  Private Pilot rating or higher.

To harp on an old point - tell me what you expect duties you will demand from a CAP officer, and I'll tell you if he needs college to perform those duties.

Reading and writing would be a start!

In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

BS - Aviation Technology
MS - Aviation Safety

by JohnKachenmeister
In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

True, and necessary for that  22 year old Officer candidate who just moved out on his own for the first time and is lacking any real world life experience.

For a CAP Officer??????

I spent 8 years in the Infantry.  Went on to be a law enforcement officer where I have been for 10 years.  Ive done SWAT, Training Officer, SWAT-EMT, Dope and gang teams and am SWAT Instructor.  Ive been a Sheriff's Aircrew member for 3 years and now a Department Pilot Trainee.  I have a Commercial-Instrument Airplane rating along with a Private helicopter and glider rating.
Ive been in CAP for about 12 years (cadet time included) and served as a the Deputy Commander for Seniors, Deputy Commander for Cadets, ES and Leadership Officer.  Ive been on numerous SAR's as a Deputy Flight Officer and a couple as a CAP aircrew member.  I am a Transport Mission Pilot and in the CD program. I am now working towards my Mission Pilot qual.  Im 32 years old.   I own a house and have been married to the same woman for over 10 years and have 2 critters...not to mention a pretty darn good credit rating!

According to some of you and your "recommendations", I wouldn't or shouldnt be qualified to be a CAP officer? 

Gosh....If only I had a degree, maybe I could have been somebody.

BBA - St. John's University

Did one semester at Tarlton State to qualify as Reserve Office.

Did one semester at Ben Gurion University, Beershiva, Israel in Archaeology. Pure Fun !

Ken Freeman, COL
HQ ASDF J-7
Air Command Section

I'm currently in college.  I'm studying Political Science with an eye towards East Asia.

Just finished up the first semester of my junior year. 

AA - Administration of Justice
BS - Computer Information Systems Management

A degree requirement for CAP officers?  Negative. 

I completed my BS almost 20 years after high school.  In the meantime I held a variety of professional positions including police officer, crime scene technician, systems administrator, as well as jobs in airport operations and crash rescue.  All were professional positions equalling or surpassing the expectations of CAP officers.  Finishing the degree was really nice but it didn't instill or create "officer related skills." Those were already earned thanks to the school of hard knocks.

Requiring a degree for young military officers is one thing.  As with many professions, requiring a degree limits the applicant pool to those with a better chance of success in the job.  Their relative lack of life experience leaves little else to judge them by. In contrast, many CAP members are more seasoned when they join.  Limiting their volunteer opportunities based on formal education, or lack thereof, is unnecessary and may deny CAP the benefit of their potentially valuable experiences.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

M.S. Health Physics - Georgia Institute of Technology
M.S., Nuclear Engineering - Iowa State University

B.A.-Psychology, University of New Hampshire
J.D.-Seton Hall University

I too am against a degree requirement for CAP officers.  I don't know what the percentage is, but nowadays I believe a lot of the RM enlisted folks have degrees.  So, there is something more to becoming an officer than simply having a college degree.  Imposing a degree requirement on CAP officers would just be the imposition of a meaningless threshold IMHO.

Quote from: Flying Pig on December 22, 2007, 12:14:37 AM

by JohnKachenmeister
In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

True, and necessary for that  22 year old Officer candidate who just moved out on his own for the first time and is lacking any real world life experience.

For a CAP Officer??????

I spent 8 years in the Infantry.  Went on to be a law enforcement officer where I have been for 10 years.  Ive done SWAT, Training Officer, SWAT-EMT, Dope and gang teams and am SWAT Instructor.  Ive been a Sheriff's Aircrew member for 3 years and now a Department Pilot Trainee.  I have a Commercial-Instrument Airplane rating along with a Private helicopter and glider rating.
Ive been in CAP for about 12 years (cadet time included) and served as a the Deputy Commander for Seniors, Deputy Commander for Cadets, ES and Leadership Officer.  Ive been on numerous SAR's as a Deputy Flight Officer and a couple as a CAP aircrew member.  I am a Transport Mission Pilot and in the CD program. I am now working towards my Mission Pilot qual.  Im 32 years old.   I own a house and have been married to the same woman for over 10 years and have 2 critters...not to mention a pretty darn good credit rating!

According to some of you and your "recommendations", I wouldn't or shouldnt be qualified to be a CAP officer? 

Gosh....If only I had a degree, maybe I could have been somebody.

Apparently, Bob, you didn't read my recommendations.

I recommended:

2 years of college toward a Bachelors,  OR

Associate Degree, OR

Trade school of 900 clock hours duration (If your basic police academy didn't quite qualify, your subsequent training would boost it up past 900 hours, I'm sure.) OR

Private pilot or higher  (You indicate you got that).

So chill.  I never said you were not qualified. 

But consider the guy who:

Finished high school.

Lived to be 21,

And that's all.

Do we want a guy like that running a unit, advising cadets, and representing us?  It is guys like that who give CAP about 90 percent of our problems.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 22, 2007, 09:09:22 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on December 22, 2007, 12:14:37 AM

by JohnKachenmeister
In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

True, and necessary for that  22 year old Officer candidate who just moved out on his own for the first time and is lacking any real world life experience.

For a CAP Officer??????

I spent 8 years in the Infantry.  Went on to be a law enforcement officer where I have been for 10 years.  Ive done SWAT, Training Officer, SWAT-EMT, Dope and gang teams and am SWAT Instructor.  Ive been a Sheriff's Aircrew member for 3 years and now a Department Pilot Trainee.  I have a Commercial-Instrument Airplane rating along with a Private helicopter and glider rating.
Ive been in CAP for about 12 years (cadet time included) and served as a the Deputy Commander for Seniors, Deputy Commander for Cadets, ES and Leadership Officer.  Ive been on numerous SAR's as a Deputy Flight Officer and a couple as a CAP aircrew member.  I am a Transport Mission Pilot and in the CD program. I am now working towards my Mission Pilot qual.  Im 32 years old.   I own a house and have been married to the same woman for over 10 years and have 2 critters...not to mention a pretty darn good credit rating!

According to some of you and your "recommendations", I wouldn't or shouldnt be qualified to be a CAP officer? 

Gosh....If only I had a degree, maybe I could have been somebody.

Apparently, Bob, you didn't read my recommendations.

I recommended:

2 years of college toward a Bachelors,  OR

Associate Degree, OR

Trade school of 900 clock hours duration (If your basic police academy didn't quite qualify, your subsequent training would boost it up past 900 hours, I'm sure.) OR

Private pilot or higher  (You indicate you got that).

So chill.  I never said you were not qualified. 

But consider the guy who:

Finished high school.

Lived to be 21,

And that's all.

Do we want a guy like that running a unit, advising cadets, and representing us?  It is guys like that who give CAP about 90 percent of our problems.

So a 17 year old who completed his or her private pilot certificate would be good to go, but an experienced business owner without college or trade school is unworthy? 

I understand the desire for some sort of meaningful measure to be an officer, especially one who leads cadets or commands a unit, but there are numerous ways to acquire the necessary CAP officer skills.  Ultimately though, why do we need to be so exclusive?  There are plenty of successful, responsible people who would not meet those requirements; and plenty of knuckle-heads who would.

Maybe turning Level 1 training into something more meaningful would help reduce the knuckle-head ratio.  "Instant bling" for so many off the street folks is a serious goofball magnet. 

BA in American History and English
MA in International Relations
45 hours beyond a Masters.

BS in Professional Aviation (Louisiana Tech University)
BSN (in progress)
MSN (CRNA - long term goal)

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 21, 2007, 04:36:39 PM

Quote from: DeputyDog on May 22, 2007, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 22, 2007, 05:37:22 AM
Well would we be eligible if we have only an Associates? Or only a few college credits?

I looked through the site and couldn't find anything that addresses that. Generally, in order to be an officer in the Air Force, you already have to have a bachelor's degree. They will probably address the issue of CAP officers without bachelor's degrees being eligible for the Master's program as it gets closer to mid to early 2008 (although I doubt they would offer it to personnel without bachelor's degrees).

Quote
Would the Masters turn INTO an Associates or a Bachelors?

Most likely not. The program is accredited for master's degrees. Associate's and bachelor's degrees are fundamentally different from a master's degree (bachelor's degree is more generalized, while a master's degree is more specialized).

Quote
Or would those without a BS BA be forced to enroll in the current ACSC course?

I'd lay my money on that.

Also, those who already have a master's degree will be ineligible to enroll in the master's program. Which sucks....because I was planning on going through the master's program for ACSC. I will have my first master's degree this December. I guess I will go through the regular program.

My recommendation was:

1.  2 years of college/Associate degree, OR

2.  Completion of a trade school consisting of at least 900 clock hours duration., OR

3.  Private Pilot rating or higher.

Did you quote me by mistake?

Quote from: wuzafuzz on December 22, 2007, 10:09:27 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 22, 2007, 09:09:22 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on December 22, 2007, 12:14:37 AM

by JohnKachenmeister
In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

True, and necessary for that  22 year old Officer candidate who just moved out on his own for the first time and is lacking any real world life experience.

For a CAP Officer??????

I spent 8 years in the Infantry.  Went on to be a law enforcement officer where I have been for 10 years.  Ive done SWAT, Training Officer, SWAT-EMT, Dope and gang teams and am SWAT Instructor.  Ive been a Sheriff's Aircrew member for 3 years and now a Department Pilot Trainee.  I have a Commercial-Instrument Airplane rating along with a Private helicopter and glider rating.
Ive been in CAP for about 12 years (cadet time included) and served as a the Deputy Commander for Seniors, Deputy Commander for Cadets, ES and Leadership Officer.  Ive been on numerous SAR's as a Deputy Flight Officer and a couple as a CAP aircrew member.  I am a Transport Mission Pilot and in the CD program. I am now working towards my Mission Pilot qual.  Im 32 years old.   I own a house and have been married to the same woman for over 10 years and have 2 critters...not to mention a pretty darn good credit rating!

According to some of you and your "recommendations", I wouldn't or shouldnt be qualified to be a CAP officer? 

Gosh....If only I had a degree, maybe I could have been somebody.

Apparently, Bob, you didn't read my recommendations.

I recommended:

2 years of college toward a Bachelors,  OR

Associate Degree, OR

Trade school of 900 clock hours duration (If your basic police academy didn't quite qualify, your subsequent training would boost it up past 900 hours, I'm sure.) OR

Private pilot or higher  (You indicate you got that).

So chill.  I never said you were not qualified. 

But consider the guy who:

Finished high school.

Lived to be 21,

And that's all.

Do we want a guy like that running a unit, advising cadets, and representing us?  It is guys like that who give CAP about 90 percent of our problems.

So a 17 year old who completed his or her private pilot certificate would be good to go, but an experienced business owner without college or trade school is unworthy? 

I understand the desire for some sort of meaningful measure to be an officer, especially one who leads cadets or commands a unit, but there are numerous ways to acquire the necessary CAP officer skills.  Ultimately though, why do we need to be so exclusive?  There are plenty of successful, responsible people who would not meet those requirements; and plenty of knuckle-heads who would.

Maybe turning Level 1 training into something more meaningful would help reduce the knuckle-head ratio.  "Instant bling" for so many off the street folks is a serious goofball magnet. 

I have heard this "Straw man" arguement before.  Maybe there IS some guy out there who is some kind of genius who can get out of high school, and without any additional formal education or training start a business and make it run successfully.  I have never met any such person, and I certainly haven't seen any such people breaking down the doors of their local squadron, eager to join CAP.

We still have the requirement to be 21 to be an officer, but a 17-year old who can qualify as a pilot has to be pretty sharp in the skills that we need in officers.

Quote from: DeputyDog on December 23, 2007, 08:46:39 AM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 21, 2007, 04:36:39 PM

Quote from: DeputyDog on May 22, 2007, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 22, 2007, 05:37:22 AM
Well would we be eligible if we have only an Associates? Or only a few college credits?

I looked through the site and couldn't find anything that addresses that. Generally, in order to be an officer in the Air Force, you already have to have a bachelor's degree. They will probably address the issue of CAP officers without bachelor's degrees being eligible for the Master's program as it gets closer to mid to early 2008 (although I doubt they would offer it to personnel without bachelor's degrees).

Quote
Would the Masters turn INTO an Associates or a Bachelors?

Most likely not. The program is accredited for master's degrees. Associate's and bachelor's degrees are fundamentally different from a master's degree (bachelor's degree is more generalized, while a master's degree is more specialized).

Quote
Or would those without a BS BA be forced to enroll in the current ACSC course?

I'd lay my money on that.

Also, those who already have a master's degree will be ineligible to enroll in the master's program. Which sucks....because I was planning on going through the master's program for ACSC. I will have my first master's degree this December. I guess I will go through the regular program.

My recommendation was:

1.  2 years of college/Associate degree, OR

2.  Completion of a trade school consisting of at least 900 clock hours duration., OR

3.  Private Pilot rating or higher.

Did you quote me by mistake?

I think so.

And... Wuzzafuzz, I agree with you that Level I needs to be more intense and meaningful.  I got flamed for that suggestion, too.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 21, 2007, 05:13:09 PM
Reading and writing would be a start!

In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

As a RM officer, I agree with you.  As a CAP officer, I don't.

Because we don't expect all CAP officers to write well.   We don't require most CAP officers to write at all.   There are certain POSITIONS in CAP (like commander, personnel officer, and the guy who grades cadet SDAS) where writing/reading matters.  But those are positions, not grades.  You don't need to be a CAP officer to fill these positions.

It would make more sense to require college to fill those positions. ragardlesss of grade.

Now, if you wanted to change CAP to require, say only CAP "commissioned" officers to fill certain slots, you'd have a great argument in favor of requiring a mastery of the written word.

Well regardless of college or no, everyone in CAP should know how to read write and speak coherently from high school.

And we should each have a copy of the Tongue and Quill (next to our 39-1)
IMHO

EMT-B School (expired)
BSN - RN with a focus on public health
MS - Master's in Integrated Homeland Security Management: Focus on Public Health Preparedness and Response (15/36 credits)

Quote from: Dragoon on December 26, 2007, 06:54:05 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 21, 2007, 05:13:09 PM
Reading and writing would be a start!

In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

As a RM officer, I agree with you.  As a CAP officer, I don't.

Because we don't expect all CAP officers to write well.   We don't require most CAP officers to write at all.   There are certain POSITIONS in CAP (like commander, personnel officer, and the guy who grades cadet SDAS) where writing/reading matters.  But those are positions, not grades.  You don't need to be a CAP officer to fill these positions.

It would make more sense to require college to fill those positions. ragardlesss of grade.

Now, if you wanted to change CAP to require, say only CAP "commissioned" officers to fill certain slots, you'd have a great argument in favor of requiring a mastery of the written word.

Dragoon:

"We don't expect CAP officers to write well?"

OK, maybe we don't.  That indicates to me a need to IMPROVE the quality of our officer force, and in so doing, improve our image and our perception to other organizations, such as the AF.

If we continue to accept mediocrity, we can never rise above that level.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 27, 2007, 02:43:37 PM

Quote from: Dragoon on December 26, 2007, 06:54:05 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 21, 2007, 05:13:09 PM
Reading and writing would be a start!

In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

As a RM officer, I agree with you.  As a CAP officer, I don't.

Because we don't expect all CAP officers to write well.   We don't require most CAP officers to write at all.   There are certain POSITIONS in CAP (like commander, personnel officer, and the guy who grades cadet SDAS) where writing/reading matters.  But those are positions, not grades.  You don't need to be a CAP officer to fill these positions.

It would make more sense to require college to fill those positions. ragardlesss of grade.

Now, if you wanted to change CAP to require, say only CAP "commissioned" officers to fill certain slots, you'd have a great argument in favor of requiring a mastery of the written word.

Dragoon:

"We don't expect CAP officers to write well?"

OK, maybe we don't.  That indicates to me a need to IMPROVE the quality of our officer force, and in so doing, improve our image and our perception to other organizations, such as the AF.

If we continue to accept mediocrity, we can never rise above that level.

I think what Dragoon is trying to point out is that a "CAP officer" is never required to hold a position that requires formal writing.

Again, this should be driven by the mission.  Since currently officers don't have to be commanders and commanders don't have to be officers, you can't justify additional officer training based on the commander's Mission Essential Task List (METL).

There are lots of great skills to have, but you have to justify it against the mission.  Mandate AWC for NB members?  Sure, but you have to justify why they need that knowledge and what you're going to do if no one with AWC volunteers to be the Wing King.  Either you force an AWC grad to command or you issue a waiver, which makes one wonder if they need AWC to command.

I'd stay away from words like "Never."

An officer that can't write a letter confirming arrangements developed at a meeting, or cannot write a statement in support of an investigation is an officer whose usefulness is very limited.  I have seen officers like this.

I support the idea of increasing educational requirements as a means of improving our officer force.  No, we don't need masters or phd's, but I don't think it is unreasonable to require some meaningful post-secondary schooling.  Writing skill is enhanced in college, but (from what I can see) appears to be virtually ignored in high school.

2 years of college, or 6 months of trade school, or some other course like pilot training is not unreasonable to demand.  Especially since we seem to be on track to establish an enlisted NCO force.

Lets not forget ladies and gentleman, We have Officers here who can't seem to find the "SPELL-CHECK" button.  Face it, there is no standard to being a CAP Officer.  Other than the "never molested a child" clause.

Grrr....  In order for me to finish my bachelors degree, I have to take a pre-pre algebra class then pre-algebra then college algebra.  This, with like 3 other classes and I'll be done.  If I could find an accredited university that would look the other way or simply realize that I DO NOT NEED ALGEBRA, I'd be willing to pay $10,000 cash.

I've been in the security, protection and law enforcement career field for a long time now, in addition to my military experience.  16 years since I graduated high school and I have yet to find a need for algebra.  Why is it that a college deems it necessary for me to know something I will never use....grrrrrr....

I meet people every day who shock me with the fact that they have a bachelors degree.  Somehow they have the piece of paper and I don't.  I have seen resumes from people with masters degrees and they can't even spell or construct a sentence.  Really pi$$es me off.

[/rant]

PS:  Went to enroll in classes for next semester and was informed of my inability to do algebra, thus the [rant].

Lots of dum dums graduate college.

Great leaders, managers, and innovators like Bill Gates and Richard Branson didn't.


College does not a man make. (yes, I have a degree and yes, I'm in the former category)

I think it's safe to say that we all agree that CAP's professional standards are lacking.  Improving them is something that I support whole-heartedly, however before one can move forward it is prudent to develop a framework from which to work.  Therefore, the most important thing is to develop a definition for a Civil Air Patrol professional. 

This definition should directly reflect the kinds of missions we perform, and expect to perform in the future.  Although I am biased, the definition provided by Samuel Huntington in "The Soldier and the State" should provide us with a good basis from which to work.  Huntington identifies 3 elements that constitute a military professional: Expertise, Responsibility and Corporateness.  Expertise is exactly what is sounds like: knowing your skill well enough to use it.  Responsibility is the responsibility of the officer to serve a public mission.   Corporateness is a broad espirit de corps that makes the member feel like, and identify with their organization. 

Based on this, we can surmise that our expertise is lacking; although our responsibility scores rather high and our corporateness is somewhere in the middle.  This allows us to narrow down the areas of focus to expertise and corporateness.  I'm not saying anything new here; but our professionalism needs to be improved with regards to our knowledge of our selected profession.  Depending on the member, it can be Emergency Services, Cadet Programs and/or Aerospace Education.  The interests of the member, coupled with the needs of the unit, determine which specialty the member chooses.  Although the specialty tracks work well at this level, many an officer lack a basic knowledge of the CAP.  This is where many want to improve the professional standards. 

It's the expertise clause that comes into play most often.  A CAP officer should have certain knowledge of military protocol such as how to wear the uniform, customs and courtesies and which forms to fill out.  CAP officers should have a basic understanding of how to effectively lead; and when it is time to follow.  A CAP officer should also be aware of national, their state (and perhaps even local) emergency response plans and how their squadron, group or wing fits into these plans.  If the officer has little interest in E.S. and has chosen to focus on cadet programs or aerospace education, a knowledge of knowing how to teach and lead young people is in order.  This alone would increase our expertise in our chosen field.  For some, this may require a college degree.  However, in Emergency Services it may not.  A 16-year firefighter should have intimate knowledge of ES on the local, and pretty good state-level knowledge as well.  If he does not have a degree from a university, why should he be turned away from officer status?

However, rather than look towards the military; maybe we should look towards the other uniformed services (NOAA Commissioned Corps and US Public Health Service) as they are a cadre of officers only and no enlisted or NCO grades.  Perhaps CAP should model it's standards and training from them.  It should be noted that both these services require a Bachelors Degree in a related field to their area of expertise.  Some police forces also require a college degree, such as the New Jersey State Police.  However, even they allow for military or other related work experience to be considered in lieu of not having that degree.  For CAP, a college degree may be preferred.  Yet, some sort of experience in a related field should be considered as an equivalent. 

(sorry for the rant...I just finished a college semester and have gotten used to writing a lot.)

Quote from: Stonewall on December 27, 2007, 06:14:25 PM
Grrr....  In order for me to finish my bachelors degree, I have to take a pre-pre algebra class then pre-algebra then college algebra. 

There is NO need for that class.  Colleges and Universities rely too heavily on that baseline course(s).  Where I went you had to take 2 semesters of Algebra, and pass with a  C or better.  Well, I suck at math.  It was the most difficult course I have ever taken.  If they want people to memorize formulas and therums, I suggest a baseline in statistics.  At least with a familiarity in Stats, you can figure out sports scores and junk like that.

College was a waste (education wise).  I have yet to put my degree(s) to use, the information presented has already become outdated.  I wish we could just pay all the cash upfront and buy our degrees without having to sit through classes.

Speaking of waste.....I never understood why they make you take physical fitness or health or art classes in school.  I was there to learn about Business my first time and Economics my second.  I wasted almost 1.5 years in General Education courses (Art, health, science etc.) when I could have concentrated more on my subject area. 

Bottom line, Colleges and Universities are businesses. They are only after one thing ($$$).  Why do you think it now takes 40 percent of all US students 4.5 years for a 4 year degree??  Answere.....More money from the student.

Quote from: thefischNX01 on December 27, 2007, 06:37:24 PM
I think it's safe to say that we all agree that CAP's professional standards are lacking.  Improving them is something that I support whole-heartedly, however before one can move forward it is prudent to develop a framework from which to work.  Therefore, the most important thing is to develop a definition for a Civil Air Patrol professional. 

This definition should directly reflect the kinds of missions we perform, and expect to perform in the future.  Although I am biased, the definition provided by Samuel Huntington in "The Soldier and the State" should provide us with a good basis from which to work.  Huntington identifies 3 elements that constitute a military professional: Expertise, Responsibility and Corporateness.  Expertise is exactly what is sounds like: knowing your skill well enough to use it.  Responsibility is the responsibility of the officer to serve a public mission.   Corporateness is a broad espirit de corps that makes the member feel like, and identify with their organization. 

Based on this, we can surmise that our expertise is lacking; although our responsibility scores rather high and our corporateness is somewhere in the middle.  This allows us to narrow down the areas of focus to expertise and corporateness.  I'm not saying anything new here; but our professionalism needs to be improved with regards to our knowledge of our selected profession.  Depending on the member, it can be Emergency Services, Cadet Programs and/or Aerospace Education.  The interests of the member, coupled with the needs of the unit, determine which specialty the member chooses.  Although the specialty tracks work well at this level, many an officer lack a basic knowledge of the CAP.  This is where many want to improve the professional standards. 

It's the expertise clause that comes into play most often.  A CAP officer should have certain knowledge of military protocol such as how to wear the uniform, customs and courtesies and which forms to fill out.  CAP officers should have a basic understanding of how to effectively lead; and when it is time to follow.  A CAP officer should also be aware of national, their state (and perhaps even local) emergency response plans and how their squadron, group or wing fits into these plans.  If the officer has little interest in E.S. and has chosen to focus on cadet programs or aerospace education, a knowledge of knowing how to teach and lead young people is in order.  This alone would increase our expertise in our chosen field.  For some, this may require a college degree.  However, in Emergency Services it may not.  A 16-year firefighter should have intimate knowledge of ES on the local, and pretty good state-level knowledge as well.  If he does not have a degree from a university, why should he be turned away from officer status?

However, rather than look towards the military; maybe we should look towards the other uniformed services (NOAA Commissioned Corps and US Public Health Service) as they are a cadre of officers only and no enlisted or NCO grades.  Perhaps CAP should model it's standards and training from them.  It should be noted that both these services require a Bachelors Degree in a related field to their area of expertise.  Some police forces also require a college degree, such as the New Jersey State Police.  However, even they allow for military or other related work experience to be considered in lieu of not having that degree.  For CAP, a college degree may be preferred.  Yet, some sort of experience in a related field should be considered as an equivalent. 

(sorry for the rant...I just finished a college semester and have gotten used to writing a lot.)

It didn't come across as a rant, Fish.  I think your points are well taken.  I suggest some significant post-secondary education or training simply as a first step toward improving the officer corps of CAP.  The second step would be to improve and expand the initial training given to CAP members.  A formal Officer Training Course is called for.

For the record, I have never advocated a degree as a minimum for CAP officers. 

I have two years towards a bachelors in History at a state university
EMT school,  and a year at a community college in Emergency Services...

I took an algebra class at the University, got a D
(needed a D+ to pass... something about standards)
took a remedial math class and got a D-   ... grrr

Took a Physics class for $350 at the University and got a D.
Took a Geology class for $150 at the Community College and got an A.

I flunked algebra in high school, and got by with bonehead math in college.

Then the police department assigned me to the traffic unit, and I had to become an accident reconstructionist.  Accident reconstruction is ALL higher-level math.

"Officer, just reduce the equation using the skills you learned in high school algebra."

"Easy for YOU to say!"

I took algebra online. My co-workers wife is a math teacher. She teaches Advanced Placement level stuff. She tutored me once a week for 2 hours. Worked out great. The book the school sent me also had 20 instructional CD's with mini videos to cover each section. This worked out perfectly. I could watch and practice at the same time. I still have the videos all 20.

Again, folks keep saying an "officer" needs to be able to do X and why.

This is true in the RM, where there is an expectation that certain positions will only be filled by officers of certain grades.  So....we demand skills of those officers of those grades so that they can do the work


In CAP, you don't need to be an officer to fill any job.

A squadron commander can be an unranked SM or even an NCO, last time I checked.
Wing directors can also be of any grade, including no grade at all.


So.....what exactly makes officers special?  Nothing actually.  Except Wing CCs - they are all Colonels.  Hence the Wing CC charm school - to teach them what they need to know - but not for the grade, for the position

The truth is, the vast majority of our officers don't do any writing beyond filling out a 108. A few do, but it's not because they are officers, it's because of their position.

If you wanted to restrict certain CAP jobs to officers, then you'd have reason to raise the standards for officers.

If you wanted to raise the standards for EVERYONE, since anyone can end up filling any position, you'd also be on solid ground.

But here's the bottom line - the CAP corporation doesn't expect anything in terms of duty performance out of an Officer beyond what it expects out of an unranked member.

The first step to raising the standards for officers would be to define exactly what roles in CAP are officers, ALL officers, expected to fill.  And what do we do with "officers" who don't want to fill them.  That's a much tougher discussion than just raising the standards so that our officers seem more "high speed."

What good does it do to tell a bunch of our members that they aren't qualified to be officers, and then let them fill officer positions anyway? 

Quote from: caphistorian on December 28, 2007, 02:57:34 PM
I took algebra online. My co-workers wife is a math teacher. She teaches Advanced Placement level stuff. She tutored me once a week for 2 hours. Worked out great. The book the school sent me also had 20 instructional CD's with mini videos to cover each section. This worked out perfectly. I could watch and practice at the same time. I still have the videos all 20.

Fortunately, I was able to learn more math than any of the lawyers who cross-examined me knew.  There is a reason they went to law school instead of med school!

I was a senior at George Mason Univ in VA before I took a good job in DC, leaving me with 102 credits.  Just like back then, I left the math classes for the end.

So, here I am, a senior, and I take the math placement test for a local "satellite" campus for Columbia College and I the lady checked to see if she had the right answer key.  I got 24 out of 34 on regular math and then 4 out of 25 on algebra.  I think she thought I was clinically brain dead.  I almost cried.

So, here I am, going to take elementary algebra so I can take intermediate algebra so finally, I can take college algebra.  Luckily the community college has classes on base, near where I work that get out 15 minutes before I have to work.  And they're the "short semesters", 8 weeks instead of 16.  I may just have a BA before Dec '08.  Started in Spring of '96.  Yes, that's a "9" before the six, not a zero.

Quote from: Stonewall on December 28, 2007, 06:41:08 PM
I was a senior at George Mason Univ in VA before I took a good job in DC, leaving me with 102 credits.  Just like back then, I left the math classes for the end.

So, here I am, a senior, and I take the math placement test for a local "satellite" campus for Columbia College and I the lady checked to see if she had the right answer key.  I got 24 out of 34 on regular math and then 4 out of 25 on algebra.  I think she thought I was clinically brain dead.  I almost cried.

So, here I am, going to take elementary algebra so I can take intermediate algebra so finally, I can take college algebra.  Luckily the community college has classes on base, near where I work that get out 15 minutes before I have to work.  And they're the "short semesters", 8 weeks instead of 16.  I may just have a BA before Dec '08.  Started in Spring of '96.  Yes, that's a "9" before the six, not a zero.

You might want to consider what I did in the same circumstances.  I went back to college about 12 after I was asked to leave my last university.  I took the assessment test and bombed it.  Fortunately, I was allowed a "do over."  I got some "algebra for dummies" books and was able to pass well enough to only need one math class.  It may save you a chunk of time.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on December 28, 2007, 08:03:40 PMI got some "algebra for dummies" books and was able to pass well enough to only need one math class.  It may save you a chunk of time.

DUDE!

I just got back from Borders Books getting an Algebra for Dummies book.  I've used "for dummies" books in the past for everything from running to the Civil War and have always benefited greatly. 

I'm going to the Navy base's education center on Monday to take the math placement test with the local comm college.  I'm hoping to do well enough to skip at least the pre-pre algebra class.  With any luck, I'll be able to take the College Algebra class without the pre-reqs.  Chances are, my true ignorance of the algebraic language will shine.  But we'll see.  I've got 2 days to learn what I couldn't learn in 2 years of failing algebra in high school.

Kirt-

My university I'm at made me take a placement test when I entered. I didn't warrant going to intermediate algebra, but they had a "special" college algebra class that also covered some of the intermediate stuff, yet counted for the College algebra just the same. 2 birds, one grade  ;D

See if they have something neat like that. If not, You can always commute to Middle TN 4 times a week  :P

Quote from: SJFedor on December 29, 2007, 02:11:15 AM
Kirt-

My university I'm at made me take a placement test when I entered. I didn't warrant going to intermediate algebra, but they had a "special" college algebra class that also covered some of the intermediate stuff, yet counted for the College algebra just the same. 2 birds, one grade  ;D

See if they have something neat like that. If not, You can always commute to Middle TN 4 times a week  :P

They have math in Tennessee?  I guess calculating whisky flow through a still is complicated........ratios, squares, exponentials and the like.   >:D

Math was never my favorite subject either...but I could do applied math.

Took Trigonometry in H.S. and needed a classmate to tutor me just to get a "C".   We both took Trig based Physics the following semester and I had to tutor her.   Calculus was the same way, struggled through that class but aced Calc based Physics.   Ended up getting a B.A. degree in Psychology.

Recently decided to go for R.N. and found out I had to take a math placement test.  Ugh.  There's a great resource at  www.math.com  which really helped me get back up to speed. 

You can do it, Colonel, don't give up.

Quote from: mikeylikey on December 29, 2007, 03:44:14 AM

Quote from: SJFedor on December 29, 2007, 02:11:15 AM
Kirt-

My university I'm at made me take a placement test when I entered. I didn't warrant going to intermediate algebra, but they had a "special" college algebra class that also covered some of the intermediate stuff, yet counted for the College algebra just the same. 2 birds, one grade  ;D

See if they have something neat like that. If not, You can always commute to Middle TN 4 times a week  :P

They have math in Tennessee?  I guess calculating whisky flow through a still is complicated........ratios, squares, exponentials and the like.   >:D

...and critical speeds on mountain curves while you are outrunning the Revenuers.

^  :D

  This is my first post on here, so please excuse me if I mess up any protocols. I think I have you beat for how long it took me to finish my BS. Started in 1970 at Texas A&M and finally graduated from The Evergreen State College in 1997, a year after my oldest son.
   Besides math.com, a good resource for help with math is http://www.mathforum.org (http://www.mathforum.org). This is probably the central resource for K-12 and college math education. It's organized and is searchable by topic and grade level. They also have an online help called "Ask Dr. Math". All of their previous answers are archived and searchable. Another website that provides some basic interactive java applets is http://illuminations.nctm.org (http://illuminations.nctm.org).

Good Luck!

^ Welcome to CAPTALK bwj!  Thanks for the info. 

Welcome to CAPTalk, Bill.  How did the Aggies do last night?  I turned the TV off in disgust after UCF got beat.

Thanks for the welcome. A&M got stomped. Kind of like when I was there. One game was considered a winning streak.

Quote from: Stonewall on December 28, 2007, 06:41:08 PM
So, here I am, a senior, and I take the math placement test for a local "satellite" campus for Columbia College and I the lady checked to see if she had the right answer key.  I got 24 out of 34 on regular math and then 4 out of 25 on algebra.  I think she thought I was clinically brain dead.  I almost cried.

Good grief, I had six semesters of math in college, all calculus and above, and probably couldn't pass either of those tests.  Don't beat yourself up.

BS  --  Business Management
MS  --  National Security Affairs
MMAS --  Military Art and Science

Are there any schools that offer a Certificate, Associates or Bachelors in Military Science or Military History?

^ Most Universities that offer ROTC also allow the awarding of a minor, major or certificate in Military Science. 

Example.....at Penn State, a person can walk in and sign up for a Political Science major, enroll in the first two years of Army ROTC, get permission from the Senior Military Science Instructor (Professor of Military Science or Battalion Commander) to audit the last two years of the ROTC program.  PENN will then award you a bachelor of Science in Military Studies.  It is not advertised publicly though, but can be done.  I have seen other schools do the same. 

NOW if you were speaking of on line programs, there are many.  You can check out the AF or Army times websites and see the advertisements for them.

For what it's worth here's my "rack" of diplomas...

Post Secondary Certificates: Graphic Design, Technical Theatre Arts

BSBA - Marketing
Minor: International Business and Global Studies
Minor: Photography

MBA - Marketing and Advertising

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 02, 2008, 05:32:49 AM
Are there any schools that offer a Certificate, Associates or Bachelors in Military Science or Military History?

I don't know anyone who has gotten a degree from here, but the American Military University has numerous certificates and degree programs delaing with military science/history.
http://www.amu.apus.edu/Academics/Degree-Programs/index.htm

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 02, 2008, 06:46:46 AM
^ Most Universities that offer ROTC also allow the awarding of a minor, major or certificate in Military Science. 

Example.....at Penn State, a person can walk in and sign up for a Political Science major, enroll in the first two years of Army ROTC, get permission from the Senior Military Science Instructor (Professor of Military Science or Battalion Commander) to audit the last two years of the ROTC program.  PENN will then award you a bachelor of Science in Military Studies.  It is not advertised publicly though, but can be done.  I have seen other schools do the same. 

NOW if you were speaking of on line programs, there are many.  You can check out the AF or Army times websites and see the advertisements for them.

I know about the ROTC minor sir. Im talking about an actual Degree in military studies

^ Sorry let me be more specific.  Penn states offers a BS in Military Science through its college, "Commonwealth College".  You take all sorts of "political sciencey", history and a few electives.  You must sign up for AFROTC or AROTC.  First two years anyone can take, last two years you need to either be in it for the Commission, or ask to audit the class which requires the battalion or detachment Commanders Permission. 

Most Universities that Have Army ROTC go this route as well.

You just need to speak to the registrars at the various locations. 

Now what specifically were you looking for, an actual college setting, or something like University of Phoenix on line??

Online, at least for the time being.  ( But not nearly as expensive as Pheonix)
Hopefully resulting in an Associates, but even just a Certificate would be nice boost to my list of credits.

< Reason being, if I move further ahead towards my bachelors, before the med waiver for ROTC comes through (if it ever does) I am ineligible to do the ROTC route. ( As I'd have too many credits and the ROTC doesnt allow those with med waivers to come in on the 2 year program. - As told to me by my former det. / CC, this is how it would play - )
Therefore my only option would be OCS which at the moment is interested in those with a technical or engineering background. (My bachelors will be History and I've already completed a minor in Music)

Therefore I'd LOVE to get an Associates degree in Military Studies or
-even better-  Military History.

( Im already set to begin Paramedic training which will give me an Associates in EMS, but it wont transfer into anything )


- Off topic:
Before I was forced kicking and screaming from ROTC I was set  to be a Nuclear Missile crewdog. If I could wave a wand and be back in the ROTC thats what I would want to do. If thats not possible I would go where-ever I could do the Air Force the most good, be it as an officer or enlisted. If the AF wont take me Id sign up for the first branch of the DoD that will.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 04, 2008, 07:13:28 AM

( Im already set to begin Paramedic training which will give me an Associates in EMS, but it wont transfer into anything )

Not entirely true; there are a few educational institutions that will allow some sort of articulation.

Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on January 04, 2008, 12:08:11 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 04, 2008, 07:13:28 AM

( Im already set to begin Paramedic training which will give me an Associates in EMS, but it wont transfer into anything )

Not entirely true; there are a few educational institutions that will allow some sort of articulation.

True, true but they tend to be Pre-med or nursing programs and nether of those will help me in regards to the Air Force. (Unless I want to be a Doc or a Nurse, but I'll cut off my hands before that happens)

More important than a degree is the ability to do the job - I have seen many highly "educated" people possessing an alphabet soup of degrees without the ability to translate their education into competent action.  Even some MD's are not good physicians.  Possession of a degree only indicates that one was exposed to a body of knowledge generally in a formal environment and possessed the memorization skills necessary to pass the tests.  What truly counts in the world of "doing" is the ability to translate knowledge (no matter how acquired - through formal education or experience) into productive and appropriate action with a successful outcome.  Many of those who focus on degrees are insecure in their ability to act.  The best of all worlds is the person with knowledge, experience, skill, and the ability to integrate all of those into success - with a degree, great; without one, great as well.

Lets not get hung up on "degrees."  I think CAP should insist on SOME post-secondary education.  College, trade school, flight training, whatever.  There is no need to settle for the "Wannabe" who lacks the personal drive and motivation to do something between high school and the legal drinking age.

The guy who finishes high school, gets an entry-level job in retail, fast food, or materials handling and is still in that entry level job 3 years later is NOT the kind of a guy we want running our units.

And, if you think about it long enough, it is guys like that, who are given rank which is way beyond their ability, who cause about 80-90 per cent of our problems.

Quote from: GhostWriter on January 09, 2008, 01:24:09 AM
More important than a degree is the ability to do the job - l.

Very true. After many years in the biz, I started teaching college web design and art classes without having a degree myself. My students told me they appreciated the "real-world" approach I took. I taught for 5 years.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 09, 2008, 02:39:45 AM
Lets not get hung up on "degrees."  I think CAP should insist on SOME post-secondary education.  College, trade school, flight training, whatever.  There is no need to settle for the "Wannabe" who lacks the personal drive and motivation to do something between high school and the legal drinking age.

The guy who finishes high school, gets an entry-level job in retail, fast food, or materials handling and is still in that entry level job 3 years later is NOT the kind of a guy we want running our units.

And, if you think about it long enough, it is guys like that, who are given rank which is way beyond their ability, who cause about 80-90 per cent of our problems.

What about those, like me, with some college but no degree who nevertheless achieve success? I left school as a Junior to go into a field that didn't have a degree requirement, and now I own a successful ad agency. My brother-in-law wandered through school without any real achievement, until he got an electrician job. He found his "calling" and busted his butt to get his Master's Electrician rating by the time he was 26. He then started his own business.

I have issues with making a college degree the defacto standard for everything, especially in a situation like this. Would you turn away Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Waller Cronkite or Ray Kroc?

I proposed here, just for review, that CAP establish minimal education entry standards for officers.  This would be an improvement over our current officer standards, summarized below:

1.  98.6 body temperature.
2.  G.E.D.
3.  Never been caught molesting children.

The minimal education standards I proposed were:

1.  2 years of college, OR...
2.  A trade school of about 5 months total duration, OR...
3.  Private pilot rating or higher.

I don't think it is unreasonable to require SOME achievement beyond completing high school to wear officer rank, lead teenage cadets, and administer the complexities of a CAP unit.

Assuming the the business and financial brain-trusts that you named could not meet these basic standards, yes, I'd turn them away.  I'm not gonna kiss every toad I see just because a few turn into princes.  Besides, I didn't see them breaking down any squadron doors to join, anyway.

So the Cadets who join the real military but don't have a tech school that lasts longer than 5 months shouldn't be Senior Members?   ???

^^ Bingo!

Once upon a time, a long time ago, senior members without college degrees had to start as Airman, then worked their way up the ranks through (as I recall) A2C, A1C (the A2C eventually eliminated as there are "no second class Airman in the Air Force"), Sgt, SSgt, Tech Sgt, MSgt, WO, CWO, before ever making it to 2Lt.  Becoming an  officer did not require a degree, but without one, the member had to make an additional effort to make it to an officer grade.  It was a National HQ decision to reduce/eliminate the non-officer grades and suddenly virtually everyone was an instant officer.  Instead of potentially excluding highly motivated and highly skilled people in our volunteer organization, perhaps the organization needs to re-look at its current structure. 

The analogy of kissing toads is unfortunate.  I think we can do better by finding positive motivational methods to increase our attracting talented and dedicated people.  The "minimal educational standards" as proposed (obviously excluding the private pilot rating) rely solely on some sort of classroom time and ignore achievement and success.  Perhaps there are other ways to make sure we do not fall into the trap of form over substance.

Question:
I know that as late as Vietnam we had plenty of ' RM ' Officers, including some Field Grade Officers, who had no bachelors degree. At what point did the bachelors requirment become hard and fast for the DoD?
Any exceptions?
AE: ways to become an officer (and stay an officer) without having to complete a BACHELORS?

Just curious.
As it goes along with the above... while the degree is usually a good thing, its no promise that the person will do a good job and there are plenty of folks without a BACHELORS that did fine in life.

( Now Im not saying an associates or some other post high school education couldnt be required )

Quote from: GhostWriter on January 11, 2008, 07:33:08 AM
Once upon a time, a long time ago, senior members without college degrees had to start as Airman, then worked their way up the ranks through (as I recall) A2C, A1C (the A2C eventually eliminated as there are "no second class Airman in the Air Force"), Sgt, SSgt, Tech Sgt, MSgt, WO, CWO, before ever making it to 2Lt.  Becoming an  officer did not require a degree, but without one, the member had to make an additional effort to make it to an officer grade.  It was a National HQ decision to reduce/eliminate the non-officer grades and suddenly virtually everyone was an instant officer.  Instead of potentially excluding highly motivated and highly skilled people in our volunteer organization, perhaps the organization needs to re-look at its current structure. 

The analogy of kissing toads is unfortunate.  I think we can do better by finding positive motivational methods to increase our attracting talented and dedicated people.  The "minimal educational standards" as proposed (obviously excluding the private pilot rating) rely solely on some sort of classroom time and ignore achievement and success.  Perhaps there are other ways to make sure we do not fall into the trap of form over substance.

OK, GhostWriter...  I'm open to suggestions.  I firmly believe that we need to raise our standards for officers, but we do not need to raise them so high to exclude good people.  This conversation has gone in circles, and people continue to pose the strawman arguement of "What if in intrinsically brilliant man such as Bill Gates wants to be an officer, but doesn't have college?" 

I counter with:

How many geniuses have come into CAP under our current standards?  Did they stay?

I proposed college or similar post-secondary schooling.  I might add a Mitchell or higher as a cadet.  If you want to toss in prior active duty, I'll go for it.  What else you got?

Now, GW, if your point is to be believed, there are a number of persons who are highly talented, brilliant assets to the CAP program out there, but for reasons unknown to us, they have elected to not display this brilliance by engaging in activities to prepare them for jobs of great responsibility.  Once they join, and participate in our weekend management training classes, their brilliance will bloom and CAP will be a better organization as a result.  Is that what your are maintaining?

And I think my kissing pigs analogy was spot on.  The people we are talking about screening out account for about 80 percent of our personnel problems. 

I went back to the beginning of this thread and realized that it started from a poll about the educational level of existing members and a comment that there is "...some talk about our Officers having a college degree..."  Perhaps it would be useful if someone would clearly elucidate exactly what problem we're trying to solve.

Over the years, I've known a number of our officers who did not possess degrees and whose contributions to CAP were extraordinary and were acknowledged in very formal and public venues. I won't name names, as it would be highly inappropriate for me to publicize that they lack the formal education you appear to believe is of greater importance than their contributions.

In answer to your specific question, I only know with certainty of one "genius" as that individual was a member of Mensa (sans college degree).

Over the years, we recruited several highly successful individuals, some with degrees and some without.  Virtually all of those I knew have left the organization as they found some of the politics and overblown egos intolerable.  One incredibly successful entrepreneur and another venture capitalist told me that they wouldn't tolerate the pettiness and rank-consciousness in their own companies so they saw no reason to put up with it in a volunteer organization.  They were truly altruistic individuals who also served as members of the boards of Fortune 500 companies.  (By the way, I have no idea whether or not they were geniuses, but I do know that 20+ years ago they were multimillionaires.  The requirements you propose would have precluded one of these individuals from serving as an officer.) 

CAP must function such that participation is encouraged, valued and rewarded, and as in the world of paid work, there needs to be appropriate mechanisms to deal with individuals who abuse the organization by using it rather than contributing to it. 

I do not pretend to have the answer to the problem you see, but I do believe that a bit more creative thought needs to go into attracting, motivating, rewarding, and keeping good people.  We need to be able to utilize the skills that each individual possesses, have flexibility and motivating skills to keep the good people we bring into the organization, and properly manage those who, to quote you, are "toads".

In summary, let's clearly define the problem(s) before delineating potential solutions.  Educational requirements will NOT screen out jerks.  There are as many jerks with degrees as without.  If we are to successfully screen out jerks rather than finding ways to properly manage those that come our way, perhaps we will have to look outside the human race for our membership.

Quote from: GhostWriter on January 12, 2008, 08:23:51 AM
If we are to successfully screen out jerks rather than finding ways to properly manage those that come our way, perhaps we will have to look outside the human race for our membership.

Right there.....you just backed up what I have been saying for 10 years.  Robots are coming, and they are going to take all of our jobs.  And Women.   :'(

Quote from: GhostWriter on January 12, 2008, 08:23:51 AM
I went back to the beginning of this thread and realized that it started from a poll about the educational level of existing members and a comment that there is "...some talk about our Officers having a college degree..."  Perhaps it would be useful if someone would clearly elucidate exactly what problem we're trying to solve.

Over the years, I've known a number of our officers who did not possess degrees and whose contributions to CAP were extraordinary and were acknowledged in very formal and public venues. I won't name names, as it would be highly inappropriate for me to publicize that they lack the formal education you appear to believe is of greater importance than their contributions.

In answer to your specific question, I only know with certainty of one "genius" as that individual was a member of Mensa (sans college degree).

Over the years, we recruited several highly successful individuals, some with degrees and some without.  Virtually all of those I knew have left the organization as they found some of the politics and overblown egos intolerable.  One incredibly successful entrepreneur and another venture capitalist told me that they wouldn't tolerate the pettiness and rank-consciousness in their own companies so they saw no reason to put up with it in a volunteer organization.  They were truly altruistic individuals who also served as members of the boards of Fortune 500 companies.  (By the way, I have no idea whether or not they were geniuses, but I do know that 20+ years ago they were multimillionaires.  The requirements you propose would have precluded one of these individuals from serving as an officer.) 

CAP must function such that participation is encouraged, valued and rewarded, and as in the world of paid work, there needs to be appropriate mechanisms to deal with individuals who abuse the organization by using it rather than contributing to it. 

I do not pretend to have the answer to the problem you see, but I do believe that a bit more creative thought needs to go into attracting, motivating, rewarding, and keeping good people.  We need to be able to utilize the skills that each individual possesses, have flexibility and motivating skills to keep the good people we bring into the organization, and properly manage those who, to quote you, are "toads".

In summary, let's clearly define the problem(s) before delineating potential solutions.  Educational requirements will NOT screen out jerks.  There are as many jerks with degrees as without.  If we are to successfully screen out jerks rather than finding ways to properly manage those that come our way, perhaps we will have to look outside the human race for our membership.

OK, G.W., that defines our positions.

I contend that it would be appropriate and would better our organization to improve officer quality, and I made some specific proposals to do that. 

You believe the overall quality of the CAP officer force is just fine as it is, and you cannot think of any way to improve it.

I'm gonna have to say I do not concur with your conclusion.  I see a lot of CAP members who are wearing the rank of commissioned officers but can only perform at the level of a junior enlisted.  They can perform specific tasks and follow procedures, but conceptual thinking, planning, executing a complex plan, and managing peaople and assets is beyond them.  I also beleive that providing commissioned officer rank to people who have not taken any initiative to prepare themselves for progressively-higher levels of responsibility is an invitation to personnel problems.

Quote from: GhostWriter on January 12, 2008, 08:23:51 AM

I went back to the beginning of this thread and realized that it started from a poll about the educational level of existing members and a comment that there is "...some talk about our Officers having a college degree..."  Perhaps it would be useful if someone would clearly elucidate exactly what problem we're trying to solve.

Prior to me starting this poll/thread, there had been several comments/opinions in other threads about senior members should have some college education.  I simply though it would be nice to see how many of the members of this forum are college educated.  I didn't try to imply that there is a problem with the way the senior member program is run.  As I stated in my opening comments, I have a few college classes, but no degree.  I feel like I can improve my squadron and have a professional unit, minus a degree.  And I have said before.  The approving authority should only promote the member if they can assume the responsibility of the higher grade.  I believe that means grooming standars, actively participating in unit activities, professionalism, everything.  I think there are too many inexperienced members of CAP trying to make senior members live up to the standards of the military.  I think that's too much.

It is important to remember why the USAF (and other services) went with the requirement for a college degree.  Why - because they could.  The ever increasing pool of college graduates following WWII allowed them to add the requirement for a college degree and still meet their officer manpower requirements.  Rumor has it that at the regular meetings of the JCS, they would brag about the percentage of their officer corp that held college degrees - i.e. which service had the "smartest" officers.  At some point, the USAF decided to require a college degree of all new officers.  The other services followed suit. 

USAF Pilot Class 61-F was the last class of Aviation Cadets.  Aviation Cadets were not required to have college degrees and were commissioned 2nd Lts when they graduated from pilot training.

There are lots of circumstances beyond a person's control that impacts their level of formal education.  None if it impacts on a person's basic intelligence and drive to succeed.  Remember, ignorance is cured by training and education, stupidity is permanent.

Quote from: brasda91 on January 14, 2008, 04:41:51 AM
I think there are too many inexperienced members of CAP trying to make senior members live up to the standards of the military.  I think that's too much.

A a retired mustang officer, I feel I have earned the right to wear my hair anyway I want to, grow the chin hair I wasn't allowed to grow since I was a teenager (and back then your father or coach or High School teacher would stop any excess facial hair),  and finally slack off on the daily exercise routine required to be combat ready.  So what if I have gained a few pounds?  I earned it.   But if they think they can fly, lead, or plan better than me, they need to have walked the walk, got the T-shirt, and drank the Kool-Aid first.  Old and cunning beats young and enthusiastic 9 out of 10 times - and I am sleeping in on the tenth time.

;)

^ You can find reference to Military Officers needing a degree to be eligible for Regular Army and Navy Service all the way back to before the Civil War.  It was only State militias that were allowed to "Commission" a person a State Officer without a degree.  Then late 1800's a pre-cursor to the modern ROTC program was established at land-grant institutions were a person could go to school and become a Military or Militia Officer.  Then the modern ROTC program was introduced early 1900's and laws were implemented that mandated all Officers; Federal (regular), Reserve and State (militia) must have a degree.  

Initially the system was set up so that when we run "low" on Commissioned Officers you will find secondary procurement channels open that allow those with a lesser than 4 year degree eligible for appointment, and highly desirable enlisted members procured directly to the Officer side through OCS/OTS/Direct/ and battlefield Commissions.  However that secondary system was relaxed and many Officers come in that route, but all agree that in order to stay an Officer, they will complete College and or University programs within a certain time-frame to get that 4 year degree.  

Remember 150 years ago the active or Regular components of the Federal Military were tiny.  All Officers were graduates of military colleges and or academies.  Those State militias at that time regularly "elected" the Officers of the Regiments.  

How things have greatly changed.  

I am a firm believer that attending a College or University is not so much to prove mental or academic excellence or achievement.  Attendance and receipt of a degree shows that the person was committed to a certain goal, and has the ability to access knowledge and information systems.  That is what is most important of College Graduates, the ability for them to be able to get information from varying resources, make processing decisions and relate the results to others around them.  

Now like stated before, many smart people and successful people never attended higher education institutions.  They are the minority, because if you placed them next to others that never attended college you will find that group predominantly makes less income than the group who can produce a college degree.  

I also believe that it has no bearing on CAP.  We need everyone!  I do think instead of mandating college degrees we mandate some more intense Pro DEV!

On a serious note, and addressing more threads than this one...

I just finished writing a obit on a squadron member.  A lot of people here wouldn't have liked him in their squadron.  He didn't look that good in a "fat and fuzzy" uniform, had been very inactive over the past several years, and only had a high school diploma.  Just one of those guys who show up at the meeting every now and then.  

On the CAP side, he had the Paul E. Garber Award and  the 30 year numeric on his RSR.  From previous RM service, he had Pilot Wings, Jump Wings, the CIB, Purple Heart, Bronze Star, and Silver Star.  

Any one that would think him a disgrace to CAP needs to have a big reality check.

Rant over.

^ I am sorry you had to write that.  It is very difficult to do.  The man sounds like he was there and back.  I am sure he was less active these past few years because of age or similar.

Tossing my 2 cents in as a future senior member (I was told I had to attend 3 meetings before I could apply, 2 left):
BS, some work toward a masters, and a year and a half of work on instrumentation and flight test for research aircraft.  Hopefully that last part will be of interest to someone in CAP? :)

Quote from: MikeD on January 19, 2008, 02:56:22 AM
Tossing my 2 cents in as a future senior member (I was told I had to attend 3 meetings before I could apply, 2 left):
BS, some work toward a masters, and a year and a half of work on instrumentation and flight test for research aircraft.  Hopefully that last part will be of interest to someone in CAP? :)

I'm not sure I understand your comment regarding attending 3 meetings.  Are you saying you disagree with this?  The regulations actually recommend prospective members attend 3 meetings prior to joining.  It has nothing to do with your education, but to help you in deciding if CAP is actually the organization you want to become involved with.

Currently attending college, pursuing a BS in Criminal Justice.

Quote from: brasda91 on January 19, 2008, 11:22:23 PM
It has nothing to do with your education, but to help you in deciding if CAP is actually the organization you want to become involved with.

Exactlly!  We recently started doing this as well.  It is all fine and good to get the money (national & squadron dues) at the first meeting.  But it is really not fair to the new member when they realize that CAP is just not what they thought it was and stop attending meetings and then don't renew.

Don't view it as the squadron not wanting you, but more as making sure you really want the squadron.

I am largely finished with a BA in Political Science, the only thing I have to do is an internship and make it to graduation on time.  I am also in the process of applying to law school.  I think that CAP would need to focus on improving training and not trying to set barriers to keep people from serving at a certain level.

A college education won't exactly guarantee that somebody isn't a knucklehead, moron, or jackass.  I have to be honest and say that the biggest idiots I have ever met were people I have met in college.  Same can be said for people without common sense.  I can understand the desire to have people that are educated and relatively successful in CAP to serve as role models for cadets.  However a person does not need to have a college degree in order to be either.  I also think that the idea of limiting people without a degree to being CAP airmen or NCOs would reak of class bias, something which really isn't needed in any volunteer organization.

Quote from: Stonewall on December 27, 2007, 06:14:25 PM
Grrr....  In order for me to finish my bachelors degree, I have to take a pre-pre algebra class then pre-algebra then college algebra.  This, with like 3 other classes and I'll be done.  If I could find an accredited university that would look the other way or simply realize that I DO NOT NEED ALGEBRA, I'd be willing to pay $10,000 cash.

I've been in the security, protection and law enforcement career field for a long time now, in addition to my military experience.  16 years since I graduated high school and I have yet to find a need for algebra.  Why is it that a college deems it necessary for me to know something I will never use....grrrrrr....

I meet people every day who shock me with the fact that they have a bachelors degree.  Somehow they have the piece of paper and I don't.  I have seen resumes from people with masters degrees and they can't even spell or construct a sentence.  Really pi$$es me off.

[/rant]

PS:  Went to enroll in classes for next semester and was informed of my inability to do algebra, thus the [rant].

Hey dude, I had to take College Algebra and Calculus to get an Aviation Degree.  I don't use either in my job flying airplanes.  I did use Algebra in some of my other classes when I was doing my undergrad work (Hydraulics, Aerodynamics, etc), but since I've left college, I haven't used Algebra very much and haven't used Calculus at all.  I also had to take stupid courses like Technical Report Writing and a Library Science Course. 

I thought it was stupid to have to take those classes, knowing that I wouldn't be doing advanced math in my job, writing technical reports, or using a library very often, but it was all a means to an end.

Thomas Edison State College in New Jersey (Regionally accrediated) will issue a bachelors with an algebra or computer language course in it's place.

Quote from: ricecakecm on January 20, 2008, 03:40:06 PM
[Hey dude, I had to take College Algebra and Calculus to get an Aviation Degree.  I don't use either in my job flying airplanes. 

Undergraduate prerequisites for my masters degree include an advanced computer language and calculus.  We never really needed to use calculus in the program.  However, I found out that requiring calculus is just a way to ensure that the students have a "mature understanding of mathematics" - that is they understand and can solve basic formulas in algebra, trig, and geometry.

Quote from: brasda91 on January 19, 2008, 11:22:23 PM

Quote from: MikeD on January 19, 2008, 02:56:22 AM
Tossing my 2 cents in as a future senior member (I was told I had to attend 3 meetings before I could apply, 2 left):
BS, some work toward a masters, and a year and a half of work on instrumentation and flight test for research aircraft.  Hopefully that last part will be of interest to someone in CAP? :)

I'm not sure I understand your comment regarding attending 3 meetings.  Are you saying you disagree with this?  The regulations actually recommend prospective members attend 3 meetings prior to joining.  It has nothing to do with your education, but to help you in deciding if CAP is actually the organization you want to become involved with.

Actually, I don't have a problem with it, it seems like a good idea to me.  It just came out weird, I'm going to plead cold medication to that...

Quote from: MikeD on January 21, 2008, 08:59:47 PM

Quote from: brasda91 on January 19, 2008, 11:22:23 PM

Quote from: MikeD on January 19, 2008, 02:56:22 AM
Tossing my 2 cents in as a future senior member (I was told I had to attend 3 meetings before I could apply, 2 left):
BS, some work toward a masters, and a year and a half of work on instrumentation and flight test for research aircraft.  Hopefully that last part will be of interest to someone in CAP? :)

I'm not sure I understand your comment regarding attending 3 meetings.  Are you saying you disagree with this?  The regulations actually recommend prospective members attend 3 meetings prior to joining.  It has nothing to do with your education, but to help you in deciding if CAP is actually the organization you want to become involved with.

Actually, I don't have a problem with it, it seems like a good idea to me.  It just came out weird, I'm going to plead cold medication to that...

No problem, could use some cold medication myself.

Quote from: MikeD on January 19, 2008, 02:56:22 AM
Tossing my 2 cents in as a future senior member (I was told I had to attend 3 meetings before I could apply, 2 left):
BS, some work toward a masters, and a year and a half of work on instrumentation and flight test for research aircraft.  Hopefully that last part will be of interest to someone in CAP? :)

The reason we ask people to attend 3 meetings is so that you know what you're getting into, and the Squadron knows who they're getting. Paying membership fees and buying a unform and then deciding this is not the organization for you is not good for anyone.   

Quote from: Cecil DP on January 22, 2008, 06:51:08 AMThe reason we ask people to attend 3 meetings is so that you know what you're getting into, and the Squadron knows who they're getting. Paying membership fees and buying a unform and then deciding this is not the organization for you is not good for anyone.   

Smart policy. We do the same thing.

Some folks change their minds after 3 meetings and don't come back - we saved them some dough.

Twice we've said no after talking with the candidate for a few weeks - we saved us some headaches.

So, I'm still trucking along with my 16 week required math class, finished 1 short 6-week biology class and halfway through another one (part 2).

Come May, I'll have only 3 classes left for my BS in Criminal Justice with a minor in Psychology.  Looks like it'll be 2008 for graduation, only 10 years after I started  ;D  Soon, I'll be able to change my "vote" in the poll.  :clap:

Quote from: Stonewall on April 13, 2008, 10:39:06 PM
So, I'm still trucking along with my 16 week required math class, finished 1 short 6-week biology class and halfway through another one (part 2).

Come May, I'll have only 3 classes left for my BS in Criminal Justice with a minor in Psychology.  Looks like it'll be 2008 for graduation, only 10 years after I started  ;D  Soon, I'll be able to change my "vote" in the poll.  :clap:

Excellent!  Good to have it behind you instead of in front.

GC

BS. Engineering - UVM
Master in Science in Administration - CMU
Ph.D. Candidate, Information Science - NSU

Regards,

Quote from: ricecakecm on January 20, 2008, 03:40:06 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on December 27, 2007, 06:14:25 PM
Grrr....  In order for me to finish my bachelors degree, I have to take a pre-pre algebra class then pre-algebra then college algebra.  This, with like 3 other classes and I'll be done.  If I could find an accredited university that would look the other way or simply realize that I DO NOT NEED ALGEBRA, I'd be willing to pay $10,000 cash.

I've been in the security, protection and law enforcement career field for a long time now, in addition to my military experience.  16 years since I graduated high school and I have yet to find a need for algebra.  Why is it that a college deems it necessary for me to know something I will never use....grrrrrr....

I meet people every day who shock me with the fact that they have a bachelors degree.  Somehow they have the piece of paper and I don't.  I have seen resumes from people with masters degrees and they can't even spell or construct a sentence.  Really pi$$es me off.

[/rant]

PS:  Went to enroll in classes for next semester and was informed of my inability to do algebra, thus the [rant].

Hey dude, I had to take College Algebra and Calculus to get an Aviation Degree.  I don't use either in my job flying airplanes.  I did use Algebra in some of my other classes when I was doing my undergrad work (Hydraulics, Aerodynamics, etc), but since I've left college, I haven't used Algebra very much and haven't used Calculus at all.  I also had to take stupid courses like Technical Report Writing and a Library Science Course. 

I thought it was stupid to have to take those classes, knowing that I wouldn't be doing advanced math in my job, writing technical reports, or using a library very often, but it was all a means to an end.

I always thought algebra helped pilots in emergency fuel calculations and the like, but hey, I'm not a pilot, so what do I know?

In my case the argument that having a college degree helps is a null one.
As an EMT I could have a Masters degree and I'd still get paid the same.
The only way I could get paid more is to become a Paramedic (which doesnt even give me an associates these days)
As a paramedic I wouldnt get paid extra for having a degree.
In this business its not what you know its what your certified for

Around here EMT-Bs make minimum wage (local services offer no overtime and give EMT-Bs no benefits) However Medics get 40 Gs and a full "package"
But then the rate the medic is hired at is the same rate that he will be paid for his whole career ( we do get a 1% Cost of living increase)

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 14, 2008, 07:10:08 AM
Around here EMT-Bs make minimum wage ...

I don't know if I'd even get out of bed...or just go get a job at Wal*Mart - even they pay more.  Around these parts, cashiers at Home Depot start at 12-14 dollars/hour...

Thats a big problem with the EMS industry.
EMT's make less money than your average McDonalds employee


I got my degree, and within a week got hired as a manager, and two years later I am working for the state public health office.  It was worth the work for me to bet my BA

Having been through the EMT-B course, state and National Registry, I don't think it's all that hard to become an EMT-B.  Not saying minimum wage should be the reward, but I certainly wouldn't expect $15 an hour. 

There are 14 day NREMT courses out there, along with other 14 day courses in other industries (security, car sales, hotel services, etc); but most people don't become an EMT as a back-up career, but rather because it's what they want to do.  Unfortunately, it's the price you pay and wage they pay to allow you to do what you want.

Eh, in my case it WAS a backup career. The AF via ROTC was my primary, but they dumped my waiver (and my scholarship) when we went into Iraq.

I don't know if the response population is representative of the general membership, but it is interesting that a majority are college grads or higher.

Conceivably, the next time someone dredges up another "Should a Degree be a requirement for CAP Officers?" thread,  we can answer "most of us already are.." :)

There have been a number of threads about some of the educational opportunities available to CAP members, particularly ECI/PME, FEMA and other courses that translate to actual college credits.  I kick myself for not joining CAP 15-18 years ago, when I was an undergrad piecing together and scrounging credits from wherever I could: would have saved me time, sweat and ALOT of money.

If anyone is in that situation right now, **take advantage of those opportunities**   Nontraditional education, including correspondence and web-based learning is more accepted and available now than it was when I was finishing college. Also, don't be afraid to ask: I've seen a number of resourceful and well-informed bloggers here, and they are happy to help.

I know this sounds like some paid endorsement, but it's true: an educated membership is a win, both personally, and for the organization as a whole.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 15, 2008, 07:30:11 AM
Eh, in my case it WAS a backup career. The AF via ROTC was my primary, but they dumped my waiver (and my scholarship) when we went into Iraq.

Thats odd.  Usually waivers do not get rescinded once granted by DODMERB or Command Authority.  I don't know how Iraq could get your waiver terminated??

Did you look into other ROTC programs at the time your waiver got dumped? 

Quote from: dhon27 on January 03, 2008, 07:47:25 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 02, 2008, 05:32:49 AM
Are there any schools that offer a Certificate, Associates or Bachelors in Military Science or Military History?

I don't know anyone who has gotten a degree from here, but the American Military University has numerous certificates and degree programs delaing with military science/history.
http://www.amu.apus.edu/Academics/Degree-Programs/index.htm

I am completing my Master of Strategic Intelligence (before they converted the program to an M.A. in Intelligence Studies) through AMU currently.  Great instructors who are very knowledgable about National Security and Military issues.

Quote from: brasda91 on May 17, 2007, 06:48:46 PM
There has been some talk about our Officers having a college degree.  While I for one do not agree with the idea, I thought it would be interesting to see how much of the membership on this board is college educated.  I have attended college and took a few classes, but that was it.  Found it too trivial to worry about homework after being deployed to the gulf during the first war.

I wanted to participate in the discussion as well:

B.A.- History, minor in Theology
Graduate work at Georgetown University toward M.A.L.S. in Islam and Muslim-Christian Relations. (21 out of 30 credits)
M.A.- Theological Studies, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary
Diploma, Air Command and Staff College (to be conferred October 2008)
Master of Strategic Intelligence, concentration in Middle East Studies, American Military University (to be conferred April 2009)


I personally do not think it is necessary to have a degree to be a contributing officer of CAP.  I've known several officers that completed just high school that are invaluable contributors at the squadron level.   Its really the ability to be a servant leader that is necessary.  That said...any skill set that can be brought to bear at the squadron, wing or national level through degrees are also useful.

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 16, 2008, 02:00:01 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 15, 2008, 07:30:11 AM
Eh, in my case it WAS a backup career. The AF via ROTC was my primary, but they dumped my waiver (and my scholarship) when we went into Iraq.

Thats odd.  Usually waivers do not get rescinded once granted by DODMERB or Command Authority.  I don't know how Iraq could get your waiver terminated??

Did you look into other ROTC programs at the time your waiver got dumped? 

They dumped me and gave the funding to the army. HAppened to a few hundred AF and Navy cadets nationwide.
Looked into some alternatives but they werent interested in giving a new waiver to an asthmatic cadet. I would go in tomorrow if given the chance though.

^ I have never heard of that happening before.  Did you already sign your scholarship package?  How long ago was this?

'04, I wasnt on a full ride though. It was 50%
The key phrase when they let me go was that i was "no longer commissionable"
Because they made the decision, I didnt have to pay back the funds.
(Like I would have if I had quit)

The USAF was and still is waaaay overmanned in Lieutenants, both O-1 and O-2. They were handing out pink slips to many new Lt's and reducing the number of ROTC commissions to account for a large loss in manpower funding (which went to the Army and Marine Corps after the start of OIF). Many officers and cadets were offered commissions in the Army. Those who chose not to go that route were either granted an honorable discharge (currently serving Lt's) or were not required to pay their college tuition back upon not commissioning (ROTC).

The program was primarily a volunteer one when it came to ROTC. However... I could see that they'd make a case against a cadet with asthma... waiver or not. In today's AEF-minded Air Force, anyone with asthma is simply not deployable.

I wouldnt have 'deployed' though. I was already set for Missiles at either Malstrom or Minot. The only time I'd deploy would be to go to Vandenburg for a test launch. Believe me I'd give my firstborn to get a commission in any branch.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 22, 2008, 08:49:20 PM
I wouldnt have 'deployed' though. I was already set for Missiles at either Malstrom or Minot. The only time I'd deploy would be to go to Vandenburg for a test launch. Believe me I'd give my firstborn to get a commission in any branch.

Three letters = commission; BSN.

Quote from: flyerthom on April 23, 2008, 03:48:11 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 22, 2008, 08:49:20 PM
I wouldnt have 'deployed' though. I was already set for Missiles at either Malstrom or Minot. The only time I'd deploy would be to go to Vandenburg for a test launch. Believe me I'd give my firstborn to get a commission in any branch.

Three letters = commission; BSN.

Or ADN (two year nursing degree) in US Army Reserve!  ;D

/r
LT

QuoteI don't know if the response population is representative of the general membership, but it is interesting that a majority are college grads or higher.

Conceivably, the next time someone dredges up another "Should a Degree be a requirement for CAP Officers?" thread,  we can answer "most of us already are.."

CAPWATCH does have info on education levels of senior members, but it isn't always filled out. 

I said I wanted to be an officer not a nurse....  ::)
Ok, Ok, maybe a nurse is Technically an Officer
(I don't get that because the PA's I know are CWO's)

Maybe i should have rephrased.  ...   

I want to be a LINE Officer

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 25, 2008, 04:19:08 PM
I said I wanted to be an officer not a nurse....  ::)
Ok, Ok, maybe a nurse is Technically an Officer
(I don't get that because the PA's I know are CWO's)

Maybe i should have rephrased.  ...   

I want to be a LINE Officer

All of the military services have been commissioning their PAs for about the last 15 yrs. Army NG and USAR PA's had 10 yrs. to convert to the Medical Specialist Corps or get out.  That deadline passed about 5 yrs ago.  I think the Navy Reserve might have 1 or 2 WO PAs left.  The USCG doesn't have any WO PA's left and the AF and USPHS never had WO PA's.

Graduates of the Interservice Physician Assistant Program graduate from the Univ. of Neb with a masters.

I would be careful telling a nurse that they are only  techincally an officer.  I saw an E-6 tell an O-6 Army Nurse Corps officer that she wasn't a "real" officer once and what followed wasn't pretty. ;D

Quote from: sandman on April 23, 2008, 05:27:07 AM

Quote from: flyerthom on April 23, 2008, 03:48:11 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 22, 2008, 08:49:20 PM
I wouldnt have 'deployed' though. I was already set for Missiles at either Malstrom or Minot. The only time I'd deploy would be to go to Vandenburg for a test launch. Believe me I'd give my firstborn to get a commission in any branch.

Three letters = commission; BSN.

Or ADN (two year nursing degree) in US Army Reserve!  ;D

/r
LT

What's amusing now is that when I finished my ADN I had a BA in history and none of the military units were interested even after CEN and Prehospital RN certifications. Now with Iraq I've been getting recruiting letters. However - if activated and deployed the pay cut would cost me my home.

Quote from: RiverAux on April 23, 2008, 10:28:31 PM

QuoteI don't know if the response population is representative of the general membership, but it is interesting that a majority are college grads or higher.

Conceivably, the next time someone dredges up another "Should a Degree be a requirement for CAP Officers?" thread,  we can answer "most of us already are.."

CAPWATCH does have info on education levels of senior members, but it isn't always filled out. 

Mine says that I have only completed the 10th grade.

Quote from: DeputyDog on April 26, 2008, 04:16:09 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on April 23, 2008, 10:28:31 PM

QuoteI don't know if the response population is representative of the general membership, but it is interesting that a majority are college grads or higher.

Conceivably, the next time someone dredges up another "Should a Degree be a requirement for CAP Officers?" thread,  we can answer "most of us already are.."

CAPWATCH does have info on education levels of senior members, but it isn't always filled out. 

Mine says that I have only completed the 10th grade.

Then that's all you ever told them on your Form 12 when you joined.

Quote from: SarDragon on April 26, 2008, 04:18:35 AM

Quote from: DeputyDog on April 26, 2008, 04:16:09 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on April 23, 2008, 10:28:31 PM

QuoteI don't know if the response population is representative of the general membership, but it is interesting that a majority are college grads or higher.

Conceivably, the next time someone dredges up another "Should a Degree be a requirement for CAP Officers?" thread,  we can answer "most of us already are.."

CAPWATCH does have info on education levels of senior members, but it isn't always filled out. 

Mine says that I have only completed the 10th grade.

Then that's all you ever told them on your Form 12 when you joined.

No, that information was on my cadet application. My Form 12 (when I rejoined as a senior member) indicated that I had completed the 12th grade. They don't update that information.

Call 'em, or send 'em a note - they'll fix it. I just sent in a bunch of documentation to get my date first joined and my encampments updated, and they had it fixed in a day.

Quote from: SarDragon on April 26, 2008, 04:18:35 AM

Quote from: DeputyDog on April 26, 2008, 04:16:09 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on April 23, 2008, 10:28:31 PM

QuoteI don't know if the response population is representative of the general membership, but it is interesting that a majority are college grads or higher.

Conceivably, the next time someone dredges up another "Should a Degree be a requirement for CAP Officers?" thread,  we can answer "most of us already are.."

CAPWATCH does have info on education levels of senior members, but it isn't always filled out. 

Mine says that I have only completed the 10th grade.

Then that's all you ever told them on your Form 12 when you joined.

It used to be that you had to be a HS graduate to be a senior member. But I just checked 39-2 and the F12 and it looks like that no longer applies.

But you do have to know how to read.  You can 2b someone for being illiterate.  Honest.

Quote from: Dragoon on April 29, 2008, 03:21:14 PM
But you do have to know how to read.  You can 2b someone for being illiterate.  Honest.

Oh that's just peachy, no, don't mentor / coach members who are eager to serve their community and are looking to better themselves.  Talk about missed opportunities.  (sorry, pet peeve of mine)

In regards to college degrees - speaking not for myself (still in high school, heh) but for my father, who's a 2d Lt:

B.S. in Electrical Engineering

Master of Business Administration (M.B.A.)

Quote from: Psicorp on April 29, 2008, 03:28:12 PM

Quote from: Dragoon on April 29, 2008, 03:21:14 PM
But you do have to know how to read.  You can 2b someone for being illiterate.  Honest.

Oh that's just peachy, no, don't mentor / coach members who are eager to serve their community and are looking to better themselves.  Talk about missed opportunities.  (sorry, pet peeve of mine)

All of our stuff is reading related. How can we expect someone to learn the material that can't read? We are not here to teach something that should have been learned by the second grade. We have more important things to worry about. Let them take adult ed classes and then come back and join.

I'm getting my AA in Aviation Maintenance. Then getting a BS in Global Security and Intelligence Studies at ERAU

BA in History from University of New Mexico in 2009, focusing on military and western history.
CCAF AAS in Weather Techology - completed requirements just waiting for the May graduation.
Start my Masters of Military History from Norwich University in March.

99% of a BA in Broadcast Journalism. 125 semester hours down, 1 senior paper to go.

A.A.S. in Computer Information Systems, 3.735 GPA

90% of A.A. in Social Work/Psychology, 4.0 GPA, Dean's List.

My initial response would be

Who's asking and why?

Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on December 04, 2012, 02:55:33 PM
My initial response would be

Who's asking and why?

Well, this almost a 5 year bump . . .

B.S. Communicatons 1977 Manchester College, Ind.
Defense Information School, Fort Harrison, Ind. 1978
M.S. Communications 1987, Clarion University, PA.
Professional Certificate in Quality Leadership & Management, 1991, (AF PD Program), Regis University, CO
AF NCO Academy, Maxwell AFB, AL
AF SOS, Maxwell AFB, AL.
etc....

AS General Studies

BS Marketing

AA general studies.

a few classes remaining for a BBA in Marketing. 

AA Education-Montgomery College, MD    1980
Bachelor of Liberal Studies-University of Tampa   2005
Master of Arts-Education/Curriculum and Instruction 2009
Air Command and Staff College-1983
Squadron Officer School-1975

Quote from: usafcap1 on December 03, 2012, 10:12:21 AM
I'm getting my AA in Aviation Maintenance. Then getting a BS in Global Security and Intelligence Studies at ERAU

Congratulations. Good reason to resurrect a 4 1/2 year old thread 

Before the bump, in April of 2008 I was working full time, waiting until September to start at DePaul in Liberal Arts.

Ended up switching to the College of Commerce (now the Richard H. Driehaus College of Business...) to go into Management.

While the classes were an easy A, I figured I'd end up hanging myself after a few months if the real job was anything like the coursework.

Switched to Finance, ended up delaying "on time" graduation by one class.

Graduated August 2012 with a BS in Finance.

Just graduated University of Akron with a BS in Political Justice/ Criminal Justice.

BA General Studies, University of Puerto Rico, 1980
Master in Public Administration, UPR, 1984
Masters of Education, Instructional Systems Technology, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 1986
Masters of Library and Information Science, IU, Bloomington, IN 1988

been a senior in credit for about 13 years.  One of these days I'll get around to finishing it off...

Technical Certificate: Firefighter Standards: Arkansas Fire Academy/Southern Ark University Tech: 2003
Technical Certificate: Paramedic Technology: Arkansas Tech University-Ozark: 2006
Associates Applied Science: Allied Health: Cum Laude: Arkansas Tech University: Ozark, 2006
Bachelors Science: Emergency Administration and Management: Cum Laude: Arkansas Tech University, 2008

Currently pursuing:
Masters Business Administration: Management: American Intercontinental University: 2014

then post graduate certificate in nonprofit management

Took in some college courses when I came back from Fort Knox, and quickly realized it wasn't for me. I may wind up back there if I decide to pursue something that requires a degree (law being the most likely), but I'm much more likely to go without. The ROI for a degree at this point is decreasing, as my field is more experienced based than education based. If I had to pick between a 4-year college degree/zero experience person or a zero college/4-year experience person in my field to bring into my business, I'd take experience every time. There's no college out there that teaches someone how to be a real estate title examiner. I did take the state title agency's title examiner classes, as well as a good amount of CE class time for licensing.

Ill Contribute:

AAS in General Occupational Technology (Dont Ask  :) )
Intermediate Certificate in Medical Assisting
Basic Certificate in Medical Assisting

Military Experience

I barely graduated High School because I was to busy day dreaming about life getting started. l have a bunch of pilot ratings though. :)  Ive gone back to college a few times but get called in to work so much to fly I kept having to drop the courses.  Thats my sad story.

I have a B.A. in Biology and am close to a B.A. in Biochemistry (and Yes, I hate Chemistry)

I am going back to get my LPN and Paramedic.

Anyone who is a Veteran should take advantage of going to college. You earned it   :clap:

BS in Information Technology from Northeastern University

Took quite a few years to go to school after my service days, but I finally decided to pursue it, and complete it.

BS cum laude in Computer Science from Minot State College 1986
close to an AA in Radio/TV Production, too
changed majors a lot (Pre-Med, Law Enforcement, Radio/TV, Computer Science)
dropped out several times to earn money to pay for school
got married, had a child
gave myself 2 years to finish a BS degree in 1984 and pushed through
worked full time (4pm-midnight) and took full load of classes
It's amazing what you can do when you have a goal and a timeframe

I have some college.  No degree though

I have a Masters; and if you will let brag at bit about my younger brother (not a CAP member, but former USAF officer):
BS - Mathematics
BS - Microbiology
MS - Computer Systems Management
MBA
MS - Genetics
PhD - Genetics

Quote from: rjfoxx on February 19, 2013, 02:29:10 PM
I have a Masters; and if you will let brag at bit about my younger brother (not a CAP member, but former USAF officer):
BS - Mathematics
BS - Microbiology
MS - Computer Systems Management
MBA
MS - Genetics
PhD - Genetics

Sounds like Story Musgrave...  :)

(http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/80000/5000/100/185149/185149.strip.gif)

(http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/80000/5000/100/185150/185150.strip.gif)

I kid because I love...

From day care pre-school to the Phd, at every level the focus of study becomes narrower and more specialized and the student studies more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.

To quote from Robert A. Heinlein:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonet, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take order, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects."

I have some college dealing with Business Administration but did not complete.  I am currently working on an Associates Degree in Ministry.  As far as only ones with a Degree being Officers, I have seen more non-college types with more intelligence and more experience than ones that have a Masters or higher.  Just because you are a college graduate does not make you Officer material or smarter than the ones who did not go to college.

Quote from: sardak on May 18, 2007, 04:05:08 AM

Quote from: LTC_Gadget on May 18, 2007, 02:30:29 AM
I've seen lawyers and other professionals for which that could be considered a valid compliant.. Don't forget spelling, either.

Ahem.  ;)

Mike

Well it's spelled right, it's just the wrong word  :-[

I suspect it's too late, but I don't think the post above was asking that we have a 40 page post of degrees and credentials.  We're all proud of our degrees, but the question is whether or not CAP officers should have an education requirement.

I tend to think not for multiple reasons.  For one, you'd have to decide whether or not to grandfather in existing officers (probably) so there would be no real effect for many years.  It also comes across as snobbish and elitist.  And having an education does not mean anything about a person's ability to perform good written communications or leadership.  I'm willing to bet there's at least one error in this post because I know I find misspellings and words left out all the time.  And yet I have a master's degree.

Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 26, 2013, 09:50:49 PM
To quote from Robert A. Heinlein:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonet, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take order, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects."

There is no merit to being a jack of all trades and master of none.  Mediocrity is the result.  I' much rather be a jack of several trades (but not all) and a master of at least one.  Would you rather have a neurosurgeon cracking your skull or a GP?

Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 26, 2013, 09:50:49 PM

To quote from Robert A. Heinlein:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonet, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take order, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects."

He was a science fiction writer...

:D

Make a connection...

Flyer

A writer is a writer, the genre isn't really relevent unless you're discussing whether his fictional framework has a basis in reality.

In this case, do you disagree with the assertion?

It was more in jest. But now that you put it I am making the connection.

That one (single) human be able to do all those things is fiction.That humans as a group should be able to do those things, yes. 

A person is never going to be able to do all those things in an adequate and correct manner.

Take for example you may excel at cooking, writing poems, balancing books. You put a wall up. What is a  wall to do without continuing to a house or other type of building? It would be no more than a lean-to sheltering you from the wind but not from a storm! And if you are not careful, it could be one that collapses on you just as you need it most...

Flyer

Like a lot of philosophy, I don't think that the list was in tended to be taken literally, but as a life's goal of diverse
abilities, we'd all be a lot better off if our young people today were able to do 1/2 those things.

I also don't think it's necessary to "excel" at everything, but be able to "do" is certainly important.

That's why, in general, I find it amusing / disappointing in disaster or other unexpected scenarios how quickly
the average Joe-6er collapses.  Odds are I'm preaching to the choir on this here, but to me most survival instincts,
especially short of Armageddon, seem like a natural progression of just being "capable of taking care of yourself" and
not being a burden to others (and hopefully being able to help others as well).

I agree with you when you put it as "being capable of taking care of yourself... not being a burden..." That should be what humans should strive to, without having lists...

Flyer

Yes, it was written by a fiction writer but like so many works of fiction people quote it as gospel, just like the gospels themselves.  Some people are so fond of certain writers whether they are fiction writers or otherwise that they quote their writings as if they are words of wisdom from a higher power.  Might not be true in this case but who knows?  So, some of us who might disagree with what is in these quotes have as much of a right to disagree as the person quoting has a right to advocate the words. 

It seems to me that a quote from Lord of the Flies would be more apt on these boards... Who's Piggy today?

Unh?

:o

Flyer

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on May 27, 2013, 09:35:22 PM
Yes, it was written by a fiction writer but like so many works of fiction people quote it as gospel, just like the gospels themselves.  Some people are so fond of certain writers whether they are fiction writers or otherwise that they quote their writings as if they are words of wisdom from a higher power.  Might not be true in this case but who knows?  So, some of us who might disagree with what is in these quotes have as much of a right to disagree as the person quoting has a right to advocate the words.

Do I interpret science fiction as gospel?  absolutely not.  However, my perception is that there has been so much emphasis on education for education's sake over the years that we are in fact learning more and more about less and less. 

   In the mid 1960's one could read the classified ads looking for bookkeeping clerks and generally the requirements would be high school and college helpful.  By the time my daughter was finishing high school and looking at the acounting field a junior accountant doing basic bookkeeping needed a bachelor's degree to really be competitive. 

This is my perception:  Today I look and see basic accounting jobs with the responsibilities for bank reconciliations, general ledger maintenance, acounts payable/receivable and stated requirements are for advanced degrees and CPA helpful.  From 1965 to 2013 the basic job remains the same, but now it seems it takes college plus to train for the same skill set as high school bookkeeping did 50 years ago.

  In my day to day job I am the controller for an engineering/construction firm and also function as the human resources manager, and my wife owns a pet supplies business.  We both see job applicants for both summer as well as permanent jobs who can't write, or spell, and have very real problems doing simple arithmetic without a calculator.  The system is broken. 

So in quoting Mr. Henlein it is not as if I am saying his word is gospel, but that education and degrees for the sake of education and degrees is counter productive.  But, if a job or position requires a degree, make the degree specific to the requirement.  Above all, let us not lose sight that experience can often trump school.

+1 - far too much is expected in terms of "book learn'in" vs. experience.  The idea of the apprenticeship / Journeyman relationship is almost dead these days, and many college graduates enter the
real world very ill prepared for how life really works.

Yes, there are a number of professional careers which require specific and extended education, but there are far, far, FAR more that require a technical-level of baseline training and/or understanding
and then simply entering the workforce and "doing it" has more value then sitting in a classroom hearing about it.  This is especially true in the mid-range of occupations that the majority of the middle-class
workforce will spend the majority of their time in.

The problem we have today is that far too many people spend their lives at the ends of the pendulum instead of the middle - jobs which for years were considered "entry level" or "starter jobs" are not
considered long-term options (McDonald's and similar service work situations), while at the other end, kids spend years in school and spends thousands of dollars just to achieve an entry level job that
barely pays a living wage.

This is also evolving in the professional areas such as medicine and law, where more technicians paralegals, vs. MD's and lawyers, are increasingly doing the lion's share of the wrench-turning in these areas.
I believe law right now is also the number one field that people leave for "other" after ten years of school.

Bottom line is that there is potential value in all education and learning experiences, and students today need to be realistic about where they want to be and
what will really get them there.

As to quote - speculative science fiction, which is Heinlen's forte, is generally grounded in fact or reality and draws lines into technology, etc., which is already on someone's drawing board.
Starship Troopers, The Forever War, and even World War Z would fall into this category, as arguably could Star Trek.   These works have borne out significant foresight on the part of the
writers involved, at a spooky level sometimes.  And in most cases the creative people behind the works have significant personal experience in education, politics, or the military.  They work
in fiction because you can't write history until >after< it happens, but that doesn't make their points less relevent.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 28, 2013, 01:26:17 AM
It seems to me that a quote from Lord of the Flies would be more apt on these boards... Who's Piggy today?

For those who haven't read the book, Piggy was the intellectual on the island. He wasn't physically strong, nor coordinated, nor an effective "do-er", nor charismatic. In fact he was very weak in those areas, and so was the target of ridicule. But he was smart.

Piggy is dead. The mob killed him.

This whole thread is pretty casual so I don't want to make too much of nothing, but the most prevalent view of education expressed here has been vocational. Sure, it's important to get a good job. It's important to have a baseline of capabilities (Bob put that well). But for centuries, men of wealth pursued education purely for its own good. Learning for learning's sake, not as a means to some other end. The idea goes back to Socrates and probably even before that. I think we've lost a lot of respect for learning in our over-emphasis on training / baselines of technical ability / marketability in the workplace. And so, today, where's Piggy? Long dead.

ymmv

Apprenticeship is not dead. It is now called internship, and companies load up on desperate students who are willing to work for free, sometimes even after graduation HOPING it will lead to a position, or at least something to throw onto a resume.

Quote from: SamFranklin on May 28, 2013, 04:07:23 PM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 28, 2013, 01:26:17 AM
It seems to me that a quote from Lord of the Flies would be more apt on these boards... Who's Piggy today?

For those who haven't read the book, Piggy was the intellectual on the island. He wasn't physically strong, nor coordinated, nor an effective "do-er", nor charismatic. In fact he was very weak in those areas, and so was the target of ridicule. But he was smart.

Piggy is dead. The mob killed him.

Lord of the Flies was required reading when I was in HS. Exceptional story indeed   :clap:

Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 28, 2013, 01:33:42 PM
   In the mid 1960's one could read the classified ads looking for bookkeeping clerks and generally the requirements would be high school and college helpful.  By the time my daughter was finishing high school and looking at the acounting field a junior accountant doing basic bookkeeping needed a bachelor's degree to really be competitive. 

This is my perception:  Today I look and see basic accounting jobs with the responsibilities for bank reconciliations, general ledger maintenance, acounts payable/receivable and stated requirements are for advanced degrees and CPA helpful.  From 1965 to 2013 the basic job remains the same, but now it seems it takes college plus to train for the same skill set as high school bookkeeping did 50 years ago.

  In my day to day job I am the controller for an engineering/construction firm and also function as the human resources manager, and my wife owns a pet supplies business.  We both see job applicants for both summer as well as permanent jobs who can't write, or spell, and have very real problems doing simple arithmetic without a calculator.  The system is broken. 

So in quoting Mr. Henlein it is not as if I am saying his word is gospel, but that education and degrees for the sake of education and degrees is counter productive.  But, if a job or position requires a degree, make the degree specific to the requirement.  Above all, let us not lose sight that experience can often trump school.

Very good points. The education system is broke.

I wouldn't be opposed to setting some education requirements for CAP officers or even for promotions to certain ranks. I certainly would like to see more stringent requirements for promotion to 2d Lt, although not necessarily a bachelor's degree.

While I can sympathize with the desire to set high standards, I fail to see what a MA in basket weaving from Southcentral Georgia State Teacher's College would have to do with qualification to fly an airplane in an aviation organization.

I'm reminded of the scene in Gulliver's Travels where the candidates for public office were required to demonstrate proficiency in circus acts to get their positions. It's a commentary on how those without technical expertise who are selecting personnel take the easy way out of making qualitative decisions.
Remember that (Gen.) Chuck Yeager didn't have a college degree. He was made a pilot in the Army Air Corps when the need for people who could fly airplanes was greater than the need for an officers club where a degree was the requirement of membership.

I never finished college for a variety of reasons, most of them economic, but I can write, spell, reason and do basic math - in contrast with college graduates I encounter almost every day. The point I'm making is that people should be judged on their own merits instead of possession of a piece of paper that carries the same weight whether it's from Oxford or Podunk U.

BTW: I have an ATP, nine type ratings,  a CFII/ME, A&P, and 14,000 hours flying time. Would I qualify as an officer in CAP?

Yes, that's being a little facetious but I'm just making a point.  Would we deny someone the opportunity to make the fullest contribution because of an irrelevant qualification

Please guys: Let's remember the first word in our name is Civil. The second is Air. The third is Patrol. We're not soldiers. We're not cops. We're here to serve and contribute to public safety in any way that our individual talents and expertise allow us.

You have good points indeed.

Welcome aboard CAP Talk and have fun   8)

Quote from: 46davis on June 13, 2013, 04:02:33 AM
Please guys: Let's remember the first word in our name is Civil. The second is Air. The third is Patrol. We're not soldiers. We're not cops. We're here to serve and contribute to public safety in any way that our individual talents and expertise allow us.

Be careful.  There is a contingent on here that really wants to minimize the Civil & Air parts.  They want to take make the organization as militant as possible and as ground oriented as possible.

Somebody's channeling a banned user...

A to militancy and "ground orientated"? The former is who we are, a paramilitary auxiliary, and the latter is part of our mission. 

Quote from: Eclipse on June 13, 2013, 09:38:48 PMa paramilitary auxiliary

except when it comes to uniforms and decorations   >:D

Quote from: Private Investigator on May 29, 2013, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 28, 2013, 01:33:42 PM
   In the mid 1960's one could read the classified ads looking for bookkeeping clerks and generally the requirements would be high school and college helpful.  By the time my daughter was finishing high school and looking at the acounting field a junior accountant doing basic bookkeeping needed a bachelor's degree to really be competitive. 

This is my perception:  Today I look and see basic accounting jobs with the responsibilities for bank reconciliations, general ledger maintenance, acounts payable/receivable and stated requirements are for advanced degrees and CPA helpful.  From 1965 to 2013 the basic job remains the same, but now it seems it takes college plus to train for the same skill set as high school bookkeeping did 50 years ago.

  In my day to day job I am the controller for an engineering/construction firm and also function as the human resources manager, and my wife owns a pet supplies business.  We both see job applicants for both summer as well as permanent jobs who can't write, or spell, and have very real problems doing simple arithmetic without a calculator.  The system is broken. 

So in quoting Mr. Henlein it is not as if I am saying his word is gospel, but that education and degrees for the sake of education and degrees is counter productive.  But, if a job or position requires a degree, make the degree specific to the requirement.  Above all, let us not lose sight that experience can often trump school.

Very good points. The education system is broke.

I have a Good Book About this, Great Read. It is called "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America" by Charlotte Iserbyt