Our squadron bid farewell to one of our longest serving members this past month, and the only Senior Member who was wearing NCO ranks. Our NCO served in the Air Force for over 25 years, rising through the ranks until he earned the Senior Master Sergeant stripes. He then retired from the AF and accepted a job in the private sector. He joined CAP in 2002 and has served with our squadron since then, with one gap in service.
In the squadron he served as the Communications Officer, the Supply Officer, and one of our two Ground Team Leaders. His impact on our cadets was immeasurable and much more than those roles imply. Like all senior NCOs that I've ever known, he seemed irascible with never a smile on his face. He never raised his voice in anger, yet it took only a glance in the direction of any cadet (or senior member for that matter) for the recipient to visibly quell and stop whatever they were doing that created the need for that "look".
Stern and strict, the cadets loved him. He is respected by everyone in the squadron and beyond. When a question on drill etiquette arose, he was the first one consulted. Of course, his invariable answer was to whip out the drill manual and ask the questioner: "What does it say in here about that?" As the Comms officer, he trained everyone towards their ACUT, BCUT, ICUT and MRO. Woe be to the communications cadet who would come in late to activate the radio net on squadron meeting nights. Again, never a raised voice, but the dressing down that would come with tardiness was something to behold – and the cadets NEVER were late again. For anything.
As a SMSGT he never sought higher grade. He could have gone through the officer's ranks in CAP, and probably been at least a Major had he chosen that path, but he always stated how proud he was to have earned the stripes of a Senior Master Sergeant in the U.S. Air Force and therefore wanted to continue wearing those stripes with pride for as long as he could.
When the new NCO program was announced, he was non-committal as to its purpose and whether he liked it or not. When asked, his response was "we'll see". That changed when the new design of the NCO insignia was published. He was livid. The kindest words we heard from him was that he "...would never wear those mickey mouse things!".
When the regulations came out that the new stripes would be required from November 2014 onwards, he stated that his last day of service will be in October 2014. Pointing out that he would not have to change his uniform until November 2015 did not mollify him. He believes that the new design is dis-respectful of all the work he put in to earn his stripes and will not serve in an organization that is so disrespectful of the U.S. Air Force and its insignia.
This past week was his last meeting with our Squadron. We prepared a cake to honor him and his service. In typical fashion, he disappeared about mid-way through the meeting and the staff and cadets ate the cake and cupcakes to salute him and his service without his presence.
Good luck, NCO, on whichever route life takes you next!
Given that the AF approved the stripes...
As a former AF NCO I couldn't agree with him more! To allow prior-service folks to join CAP, be recognized for their service by being eligible to retain their retired grade.... but then to alter the insignia of that grade for one class of members only ( I've never seen any duscussion about altering the Officers insignia!) is disrespectful of the accomplishments of the NCO !
If you feel that NCO insignia need to be altered.... then why is there not a similar need to alter the Officers insignia!
I do not know this guy, so I am going to ask: Was it really because of the stripes? What do you mean "In typical fashion, he disappeared about mid-way through the meeting"?
Quote from: capmaj on October 24, 2014, 01:46:43 PM
As a former AF NCO I couldn't agree with him more! To allow prior-service folks to join CAP, be recognized for their service by being eligible to retain their retired grade.... but then to alter the insignia of that grade for one class of members only ( I've never seen any duscussion about altering the Officers insignia!) is disrespectful of the accomplishments of the NCO !
If you feel that NCO insignia need to be altered.... then why is there not a similar need to alter the Officers insignia!
It is altered. Check the color. And the new stripes are CAP NCO stripes, not USAF.
Sounds like a great contributor and a loss for your unit and CAP overall, but as with any alteration of symbols, sometimes people are a bit too sensitive. I think that's the case here. USAF officers who join CAP are not authorized to wear the exact same insignia that they earned in the service; they don't grab blue epaulets with oak leaves, for example, but are offered grey epaulets that say "CAP" on them. How is it any different for an NCO to wear stripes that are very similar to the AF's, but with a "CAP" distinctive mark on them? I don't know your member and I'm not trying to poke him personally, but if he's a consummate professional, he's letting that lapse a bit on this issue. I hope he reconsiders and is big enough to admit he over-reacted.
Losing experienced members, for any reason, especially with the current trendlines, is unfortunate , but
clearly the ROI he was receiving wasn't even sufficient to surmount this issue, an issue which didn't even affect him
until next year, at the earliest.
He was likely looking for a "worthy" reason to leave and used this.
When you consider the fact that we have more then a few military generals and bird-colonels serving
CAP at lower grade, not to mention any number of members who, for whatever reason, are productive members
but got demoted internal to CAP and still continue as active members, this looks like seriously sour grapes, especially
in that the stripes have no actual relevance to CAP and the mere fact that he could wear them at all was a value-add,
not a requirement. They will now sit in a closet or in a drawer for no one to see. How is that "better"?
With that said, this is the kind of thing you can expect when you try and change things piecemeal and
start with the trivial instead of the core. That's why good teachers make you "show your math" - so you can't just
say things like "NCOs will be the backbone of CAP" as a conclusion without the math that proves the answer.
A full real NCO program might have been compelling enough for him to push through the minor issue of the insignia.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 24, 2014, 01:42:54 PM
Given that the AF approved the stripes...
Doesn't make them look and less Mickey Mouse...
Quote from: THRAWN on October 24, 2014, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: capmaj on October 24, 2014, 01:46:43 PM
As a former AF NCO I couldn't agree with him more! To allow prior-service folks to join CAP, be recognized for their service by being eligible to retain their retired grade.... but then to alter the insignia of that grade for one class of members only ( I've never seen any duscussion about altering the Officers insignia!) is disrespectful of the accomplishments of the NCO !
If you feel that NCO insignia need to be altered.... then why is there not a similar need to alter the Officers insignia!
It is altered. Check the color. And the new stripes are CAP NCO stripes, not USAF.
So officers grades have chaned colors from USAF? Gold bar is no longer 2nd Lt? Silver oak leaf is no longer Lt Col? Just because the backing changes color, CAP officers tabs still mirror USAF's. USAF itself uses different backings on its cloth garde insignia.... but it's still USAF.
CAP NCO grades on the other hand are different in their center symbol, say CAP on them, have a different cut for E5 and below... nothing like USAF's insignia. So it's OK to basically mimic USAF officers insignia in CAP, but NCO's need a radically different insignia? Or are former USAF NCO's not worthy of wearing USAF-like insignia while former officers are?
The NCO grade insignia are now commensurate with the officer grades.
Both say "CAP".
Both are different colors.
Both contain the "essence" of the insignia - the NCO stripes and officer insignia themselves - yet both are different enough
to be uniquely "CAP" insignia.
As a reminder, the USAF wears metal insignia on their service dress uniforms, and subdued on their combat and flight uniforms.
CAP officers do not.
If anything this simply aligns CAP NCO insignia with CAP Officer insignia.
The more we talk through this, the less sympathy you'll like find for someone who feels it is more important
to insure everyone know that he was a military NCO than is a CAP NCO.
And FWIW, not all former military NCOs were in the USAF, there are plenty from the other services who have somehow
been able to find the internal strength to wear USAF stripes all these years instead of those from their former service.
And since this is now descending into a snide remark moment.... it's time to move on.
" And FWIW, not all former military NCOs were in the USAF, there are plenty from the other services who have somehow
been able to find the internal strength to wear USAF stripes all these years instead of those from their former service."
Quote from: MacGruff on October 24, 2014, 01:08:50 PM
He believes that the new design is dis-respectful of all the work he put in to earn his stripes and will not serve in an organization that is so disrespectful of the U.S. Air Force and its insignia.
I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?
As an Air Force Major I don't feel disrespected for having to wear yellow (almost orange) oak leaves on ultramarine blue background or for having to wear gray epaulets with "CAP" embroidered above the grade insignia. Why should it be different for an NCO?
While everyone has the right to leave CAP for any reason, leaving because of a change in grade insignia design, one which was approved by the USAF, is just silly. My only guess is that this SMSgt must have had other reasons for leaving the organization and just chose this one to vocalize his displeasure with CAP.
Quote from: shuman14 on October 24, 2014, 02:23:46 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 24, 2014, 01:42:54 PM
Given that the AF approved the stripes...
Doesn't make them look and less Mickey Mouse...
I didn't see the "mouse ears", only propellers and three letters.
Quote from: capmaj on October 24, 2014, 03:34:13 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on October 24, 2014, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: capmaj on October 24, 2014, 01:46:43 PM
As a former AF NCO I couldn't agree with him more! To allow prior-service folks to join CAP, be recognized for their service by being eligible to retain their retired grade.... but then to alter the insignia of that grade for one class of members only ( I've never seen any duscussion about altering the Officers insignia!) is disrespectful of the accomplishments of the NCO !
If you feel that NCO insignia need to be altered.... then why is there not a similar need to alter the Officers insignia!
It is altered. Check the color. And the new stripes are CAP NCO stripes, not USAF.
So officers grades have chaned colors from USAF? Gold bar is no longer 2nd Lt? Silver oak leaf is no longer Lt Col? Just because the backing changes color, CAP officers tabs still mirror USAF's. USAF itself uses different backings on its cloth garde insignia.... but it's still USAF.
CAP NCO grades on the other hand are different in their center symbol, say CAP on them, have a different cut for E5 and below... nothing like USAF's insignia. So it's OK to basically mimic USAF officers insignia in CAP, but NCO's need a radically different insignia? Or are former USAF NCO's not worthy of wearing USAF-like insignia while former officers are?
Unlike officer grade insignias which are similar across all U.S. military services, NCO insignias differ from service to service. CAP is not the U.S. Air Force, so why not have a more distinctive, albeit similar, NCO grade insignia?
The other issue at hand here is the fact that now CAP NCOs can be promoted within CAP. A CAP CMSgt, for example, may not have been an Air Force CMSgt (or E-9 from another service). That's probably the main reason the grade insignias had to change a bit.
I would have thought the CAP stripes would be distinctive due to pressure from the AF Sergeants.
Quote from: MSG Mac on October 24, 2014, 04:47:00 PM
I would have thought the CAP stripes would be distinctive due to pressure from the AF Sergeants.
I doubt many care either way, but the ability to promote internally, separate from any military service, not
to mention the purported future plan to spontaneously generate them internally by CAP are both issues
that likely were more important.
I mean FSM forbid if some SMSgt accidentally called a CAP Chief "Chief" in a low-light condition, only
to find later that he was not in the military.
I shudder at the implications.
Quote from: MSG Mac on October 24, 2014, 04:47:00 PM
I would have thought the CAP stripes would be distinctive due to pressure from the AF Sergeants.
Never been any pressure that I've aware of. And the Chief's Mafia would have no problems since the ones wearing CMSgt stripes would be one of their members.
Just another solution looking for a problem. ::)
How many total NCOs does CAP currently have? I bet any impact from the new NCO insignias is quite negligible in the big scheme of things.
Duplicate
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 05:51:02 PM
How many total NCOs does CAP currently have? I bet any impact from the new NCO insignias is quite negligible in the big scheme of things.
+1 - if the number doubled, it would still be less then 200, and I'd hazard it's less then 150.
While there have been some that abandoned their CAP Officer grade in favor of stripes,
I know of a few personally who went the other way and moved from stripes into the
officer progression.
It is very unfortunate that this Sergeant's experience was lost to your unit.
I only served in one unit with a CAP NCO - he had been a former E-7 SFC (ret) Drill Sergeant in the Army. He had no compunctions whatsoever about wearing AF stripes. He was great with the cadets - as a teacher and mentor most of the time, and as a disciplinarian when needed.
Of course my position on this is well-known, but the push for CAP to be "distinctive" from the AF is getting to ridiculous levels. If we're supposed to be that bloody "distinctive," then we should not be wearing their uniform, period, instead of making all these alterations to it and severely limiting who can wear it. However, if we are ever kicked out/phased out/whatever of the USAF uniform, we should be given free reign to have a member-designed uniform, submit it to the USAF for approval, and be DONE, and I mean DONE, with it. We already have servicable utility uniforms that the USAF does not wear, though the blue flight suit has USAF connections. The only thing to be done is to come up with a better alternative to the grey/white/blazer...and I remember seeing Photoshopped alternatives here on CT following the demise of the CSU that looked way, way better than the quasi-Realtor/mall cop uniform currently extant.
As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia. I remember at an airshow in daylight on a sunny day, while wearing BDU's with CIVIL AIR PATROL plainly readable over my pocket. I had to calm the nerves of a young Army Specialist who was afraid he hadn't rendered me a salute quickly enough.
The NSCC (among others) does not treat its members the way the AF treats us about beating us with the "distinctiveness" stick (or we beat ourselves with it). Their cap device, shoulder flash and sleeve device above their "piston rings" is all the Navy requires of them.
I know, I know, I know: WE'RE NOT THEM. However, they have NO Auxiliary status to the Navy, and yet they are not "policed" for their uniforms the way we are.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 24, 2014, 06:40:56 PM
As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.
Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.
If the service to the community really meant anything, the insignia would be a moot point.
To me, looks like burnout looking for a convenient reason to cite.
More commendable to me is the example that you hear of where the O6 or E6+ joins CAP and says, "No, I want to start at the bottom like everyone else", and that's not to say there's anything wrong at all with someone else who applies their RM earned grade either.
To each his own.
I've had a bit of political challenges, a few times running around internally saying "screw this", etc. But in the end, you know what keeps me going? The ability to serve the community and help tomorrows leaders get their start.
The payback we get for that? To be able to experience some of the activities we supervise, participate in others, earn awards, get recognition, advance in grade, under our own paramilitary structure.
If they were to take any of that away, sure, I might snit and snivel about it, but I'll get over it and realize that the more important thing is the cadets who come back and thank you for the ways you helped them over the years.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 24, 2014, 06:40:56 PM
As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.
Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.
Oh come on, you and I both know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.
It might be interesting to know what the good SMSgt would say to one of his Airmen if they
chose not to reenlist because they didn't like the ABUs, not to mention the message this sent to
all of the cadets he was "mentoring".
Quote from: PHall on October 24, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 24, 2014, 06:40:56 PM
As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.
Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.
Oh come on, you and I both know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.
Maybe so, but my point still stands. The average CAP member doesn't need to be concerned with what constitutes "sufficiently different" or "at a distance and in low-light conditions" (AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.4), as this is something the Air Force has to determine, not us.
Nonetheless, I occasionally wonder what criteria whoever-it-is-that-determines-these-things uses to determine "sufficiently different."
The "cannot be confused with the Armed Forces" canard is also illogical - the G/W uniform looks very similar to West Point cadets (except they have an authorised hat).
I know...I was in the military...and the most common answer is "because they can," "RHIP," etc. Why did Tony McPeak come up with his short-lived uniform design? Because he could. Why did Ron Fogleman alter it. Because he could.
WIWITCGAux, uniforms weren't even an issue. I know - they're not us.
Same for the NSCC - they're not us.
That's an "easy out."
I have had a lot of Socratic questioning training in university (thankfully I didn't have it before BMT all those years ago! :o) which, I will admit, does annoy at times, for those who are easily able to accept the "it is because it is" theorem.
Nonetheless, I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with SECAF/CSAF/CC CAP-USAF and ask them these questions, respectfully of course.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: MacGruff on October 24, 2014, 01:08:50 PM
He believes that the new design is dis-respectful of all the work he put in to earn his stripes and will not serve in an organization that is so disrespectful of the U.S. Air Force and its insignia.
I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?
<snip>
I know of a retired 2-star who wears the silver oak leaves on his CAP apparel. Maj Gen (USAF, Ret) George Harrison (GAWG - active in glider program/Provost of NSC) when wearing the CAP Blazer Combo, is a Lt Col. But when wearing his USAF Mess Dress - 2 stars. But we still call him "General" even in his CAP uniform. I have the highest respect and regard for him.
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/106832/major-general-george-b-harrison.aspx (http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/106832/major-general-george-b-harrison.aspx)
Quote from: capmaj on October 24, 2014, 01:46:43 PM
As a former AF NCO I couldn't agree with him more! To allow prior-service folks to join CAP, be recognized for their service by being eligible to retain their retired grade.... but then to alter the insignia of that grade for one class of members only ( I've never seen any duscussion about altering the Officers insignia!) is disrespectful of the accomplishments of the NCO !
If you feel that NCO insignia need to be altered.... then why is there not a similar need to alter the Officers insignia!
The officer insignia was altered way back in the Barry Board days.....
Also please note that one day non-prior service members will be wearing NCO stripes.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 04:20:42 PM
I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?
I know one O-7 who wore Lt Col for a long time before he got tagged to king a wing.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 08:25:11 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 24, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 24, 2014, 06:40:56 PM
As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.
Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.
Oh come on, you and I both know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.
Maybe so, but my point still stands. The average CAP member doesn't need to be concerned with what constitutes "sufficiently different" or "at a distance and in low-light conditions" (AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.4), as this is something the Air Force has to determine, not us.
OK, got it, but does the Air Force solicite
any input from the CAP?
Meaning if a wild-eyed Captain in the USAF puts the package together and decides to 2LT, 1LT and CPT to 1, 2, and 3 Blue Triangles; and MAJ, LTC and COL to 1, 2 and 3 Red Triangles; and BG and MG to 1 and 2 yellow Triangles CAP would just have to live with it? :o
The point being, I think/believe most CAP members have no issue with the Tri-Prop replacing the Star on the chevrons (in fact that change makes sense to me), but the addition of the letters "CAP" just seems goofy and redundant.
Much the same as adding "CAP" to the already
different Grey epaulette slides.
The question is... was that a CAP input or something the USAF decided on without or against CAP's input?
Quote from: shuman14 on October 25, 2014, 04:26:49 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 08:25:11 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 24, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 24, 2014, 06:40:56 PM
As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.
Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.
Oh come on, you and I both know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.
Maybe so, but my point still stands. The average CAP member doesn't need to be concerned with what constitutes "sufficiently different" or "at a distance and in low-light conditions" (AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.4), as this is something the Air Force has to determine, not us.
OK, got it, but does the Air Force solicite any input from the CAP?
Meaning if a wild-eyed Captain in the USAF puts the package together and decides to 2LT, 1LT and CPT to 1, 2, and 3 Blue Triangles; and MAJ, LTC and COL to 1, 2 and 3 Red Triangles; and BG and MG to 1 and 2 yellow Triangles CAP would just have to live with it? :o
The point being, I think/believe most CAP members have no issue with the Tri-Prop replacing the Star on the chevrons (in fact that change makes sense to me), but the addition of the letters "CAP" just seems goofy and redundant.
Much the same as adding "CAP" to the already different Grey epaulette slides.
The question is... was that a CAP input or something the USAF decided on without or against CAP's input?
It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: MacGruff on October 24, 2014, 01:08:50 PM
He believes that the new design is dis-respectful of all the work he put in to earn his stripes and will not serve in an organization that is so disrespectful of the U.S. Air Force and its insignia.
I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?
As an Air Force Major I don't feel disrespected for having to wear yellow (almost orange) oak leaves on ultramarine blue background or for having to wear gray epaulets with "CAP" embroidered above the grade insignia. Why should it be different for an NCO?
While everyone has the right to leave CAP for any reason, leaving because of a change in grade insignia design, one which was approved by the USAF, is just silly. My only guess is that this SMSgt must have had other reasons for leaving the organization and just chose this one to vocalize his displeasure with CAP.
Very good points sir :clap:
Quote from: Chappie on October 24, 2014, 10:35:09 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: MacGruff on October 24, 2014, 01:08:50 PM
He believes that the new design is dis-respectful of all the work he put in to earn his stripes and will not serve in an organization that is so disrespectful of the U.S. Air Force and its insignia.
I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?
<snip>
I know of a retired 2-star who wears the silver oak leaves on his CAP apparel. Maj Gen (USAF, Ret) George Harrison (GAWG - active in glider program/Provost of NSC) when wearing the CAP Blazer Combo, is a Lt Col. But when wearing his USAF Mess Dress - 2 stars. But we still call him "General" even in his CAP uniform. I have the highest respect and regard for him.
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/106832/major-general-george-b-harrison.aspx (http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/106832/major-general-george-b-harrison.aspx)
I have heard of him by reputation only. But I am impressed. 8)
The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence. For those that do know of CAP even fewer know there are people that wear NCO rank. I am a SMSgt with almost 29 years in and have been in CAP for just over 2 years. I was familiar with CAP and even judged some drill competitions and taught drill to cadets over 20 years ago but the first time I heard of CAP NCOs was when I signed up for CAP in 2012. I was asked if I wanted to keep my enlisted rank and I said, "what is the point?" I didn't get a good answer from my fellow prior enlisted squadron commander so I took the 1st Lt bars.
I am extremely proud of being one of the few to make it to E-8 and I'm hoping for one more promotion before I retire but that is my Air Force life. I still don't see the point of NCO ranks in CAP and I think it is a little confusing to the cadets. I am in a cadet squadron and my first priority is being a mentor and roll model to them. No disrespect to my fellow NCOs who choose to continue to wear the stripes they earned but I look at this like the many military officers that have added to this thread in that this is a non-issue.
If a former Major General can "lower" himself to wear CAP Lt Col rank and be "outranked" by a wing or region commander who never served a single day in the military, then I can put on CAP officer rank (even LT ;) )
Quote from: PHall on October 25, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.
And I got that, but that's
not answering the question I'm really asking.
Did the USAF create/design the CAP NCO chevrons...
or... did CAP submit a design and the USAF approved it.
I'm trying to figure out if the insertion of the letters "CAP" was CAP's idea that the USAF just approved or something that USAF dictated from the start. ???
Personally I kinda like the Tri-Prop replacing the Star, I still think it would look better if the prop was red and the circle white, but overall not a bad design.
Adding the "CAP" makes it look Mickey Mouse.
They should ditch that and just return to the silver disced "CAP" on the lapels of the uniform coat and call it a day.
Same with the Officers ditch the "US" and go back to a "CAP" on the lapels.
BTW, got a link to AFI 36-2701?
I went to the USAF e-Publishing website, http://www.e-publishing.af.mil (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil) , and there is no AFI 36-2701 listed. ???
No pubs between AFI 36-2650 and AFI 36-2706. ???
Quote from: kwe1009 on October 26, 2014, 12:30:35 PM
The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.
And who owns the problem with that? I stand on my contention that it is
not ours. The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are. Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.
I know others have said it's our job to "sell ourselves" to the Air Force. That would only be apropos if we were a new organisation looking to affiliate with the AF. We are not.
Hier stehe ich.In my experience, I have got more recognition (as in "knowing who you are") from the Army, especially the National Guard. Sometimes a salute, sometimes a "hey, how ya doin, Captain," sometimes just a friendly handshake. All have equal status with me. Most Airmen barely acknowledge my presence.
It wasn't always that way. When I first joined in '93, I was coming out of a MCSS and met an Air Force Reserve Major or Lt Col. I saluted and greeted him. He returned my salute, stopped, shook my hand and said "thanks for all you do to support the Air Force's mission."
I wish I could have recorded that moment.
I still get treated well (as in acknowledged) by AF officers and NCO's. As to anyone below E-6...again, rarely an acknowledgement of my presence.
Quote from: shuman14 on October 25, 2014, 04:26:49 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 08:25:11 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 24, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2014, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 24, 2014, 06:40:56 PM
As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.
Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.
Oh come on, you and I both know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.
Maybe so, but my point still stands. The average CAP member doesn't need to be concerned with what constitutes "sufficiently different" or "at a distance and in low-light conditions" (AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.4), as this is something the Air Force has to determine, not us.
OK, got it, but does the Air Force solicite any input from the CAP?
Meaning if a wild-eyed Captain in the USAF puts the package together and decides to 2LT, 1LT and CPT to 1, 2, and 3 Blue Triangles; and MAJ, LTC and COL to 1, 2 and 3 Red Triangles; and BG and MG to 1 and 2 yellow Triangles CAP would just have to live with it? :o
The point being, I think/believe most CAP members have no issue with the Tri-Prop replacing the Star on the chevrons (in fact that change makes sense to me), but the addition of the letters "CAP" just seems goofy and redundant.
Much the same as adding "CAP" to the already different Grey epaulette slides.
The question is... was that a CAP input or something the USAF decided on without or against CAP's input?
I suggest you submit these questions through your chain of command. While I would venture to say that CAP-USAF gets feedback from the CAP/CC and others at the appropriate level, all we can provide here are assumptions and conjectures. If it's that important to you, then get an official answer through official channels.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 26, 2014, 02:40:03 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on October 26, 2014, 12:30:35 PM
The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.
And who owns the problem with that? I stand on my contention that it is not ours. The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are. Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.
As someone who has served in both, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While it would be nice for every Airman in the Air Force to know about CAP, it's not the Air Force's job to educate each and everyone of their members, but ours to let them know we're here, available and ready to help. We're the Auxiliary, not the other way around.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 26, 2014, 02:40:03 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on October 26, 2014, 12:30:35 PM
The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.
And who owns the problem with that? I stand on my contention that it is not ours. The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are. Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.
As someone who has served in both, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While it would be nice for every Airman in the Air Force to know about CAP, it's not the Air Force's job to educate each and everyone of their members, but ours to let them know we're here, available and ready to help. We're the Auxiliary, not the other way around.
But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.
I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol";
so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.
I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?
No they shouldn't and definitely not during BMT.
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 25, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.
BTW, got a link to AFI 36-2701?
I went to the USAF e-Publishing website, http://www.e-publishing.af.mil (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil) , and there is no AFI 36-2701 listed. ???
No pubs between AFI 36-2650 and AFI 36-2706. ???
My mistake, it's AFI 10-2701. Lot's of interesting reading for people like you in that reg.
Enjoy!
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 04:35:09 PM
No they shouldn't and definitely not during BMT.
I'd have to agree, other then maybe one or two sentences in whatever class(es) cover courtesies, both
military and common. Until you're at the NCO or officer level, you're not likely to need to know or care about CAP
within a USAF context.
Perhaps during discussions about what constitutes community service CAP could also be mentioned
as one outlet for points. The Navy has certainly made good use of those opportunities up our way.
Air Force BMT is already really tight on time and there are much more relevent things for them to cover.
Now, doing the Intro to CAP thing during say Airman Leadership School, that might be workable.
But it would be a pretty hard sell to get them to do it.
The people in the AF who need to know about CAP know. I can tell you that the vast majority of the AF can care less about CAP especially the junior grades.
If we Civil Air Patrol want people to know about us we need to be the ones to market ourselves to who we are trying to inform.
And PHall good luck trying to get any outside stuff into ALS I've already tried.
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 26, 2014, 02:40:03 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on October 26, 2014, 12:30:35 PM
The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.
And who owns the problem with that? I stand on my contention that it is not ours. The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are. Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.
As someone who has served in both, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While it would be nice for every Airman in the Air Force to know about CAP, it's not the Air Force's job to educate each and everyone of their members, but ours to let them know we're here, available and ready to help. We're the Auxiliary, not the other way around.
But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.
I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?
You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but as someone who has been through AF BMT, I disagree. That's not what BMT is for.
In my Group, we have a very close relationship with all the Air Force installations in our area. That may not be the case for every unit out there, but I'm sure our Group and units are not the only ones with a close relationship with the Air Force. It's something that requires a bit of work on our part, but certainly doable and with great return.
By the way, you have lots of opinions about how CAP should work and what it should change and that's fine and dandy, but opinions don't help us carryon the mission or improve the organization as a whole. We need people actually working and contributing, so what's holding you back?
Quote from: PHall on October 26, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 25, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.
BTW, got a link to AFI 36-2701?
I went to the USAF e-Publishing website, http://www.e-publishing.af.mil (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil) , and there is no AFI 36-2701 listed. ???
No pubs between AFI 36-2650 and AFI 36-2706. ???
My mistake, it's AFI 10-2701. Lot's of interesting reading for people like you in that reg.
Enjoy!
Thank you!
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 07:07:48 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 26, 2014, 02:40:03 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on October 26, 2014, 12:30:35 PM
The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.
And who owns the problem with that? I stand on my contention that it is not ours. The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are. Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.
As someone who has served in both, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While it would be nice for every Airman in the Air Force to know about CAP, it's not the Air Force's job to educate each and everyone of their members, but ours to let them know we're here, available and ready to help. We're the Auxiliary, not the other way around.
But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.
I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?
You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but as someone who has been through AF BMT, I disagree. That's not what BMT is for.
In my Group, we have a very close relationship with all the Air Force installations in our area. That may not be the case for every unit out there, but I'm sure our Group and units are not the only ones with a close relationship with the Air Force. It's something that requires a bit of work on our part, but certainly doable and with great return.
By the way, you have lots of opinions about how CAP should work and what it should change and that's fine and dandy, but opinions don't help us carry on the mission or improve the organization as a whole. We need people actually working and contributing, so what's holding you back?
Ok, I bow to the subject matter experts, I really don't know USAF BMT runs so if you all say it doesn't, it doesn't. I just know when I went thru USMC Boot Camp many moons ago and when I transfered to the Army and they dropped in the middle of OSUT after week eight, that we had lots useless briefings on things that had no purpose in a Military basic training.
Not to say that a CAP orientation is useless, far from it... but between the briefings on... the Combined Federal Campaign, the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Fund, learning about buying US Savings Bonds and which bars and strip clubs were off limits after graduation, I think they could fit a CAP briefing in there.
As someone suggested, if Airman Leadership School or another NCO course would be a better fit for it, then I'll concur.
As to your question, time is holding me back.
And before you ask I'm at work right now. Our dispatcher called sick, so I'm sitting in the radio room doing nothing, phone hasn't rung in an hour and the streets are "quiet" so I'm on the forum trying to stay awake as the computers hum around me.
I've been to BMT. I think they do need to add CAP to the BMT guide as part of the "this is the USAF" section. I think it needs to have a 1/2 page in the PFE study guide and be testable on WAPS. I think it needs to be included in PME. I think we need to be in 36-2903.
I'm not asking anyone to be a CAP expert or wasting anyone's valuable training time. But really...we are the USAF axillary...someone needs to tell the troops.
Having said that.....if your unit is withing 50 miles of an Air Force Base.....you had better have some sort of presence there! There are lots of ways to get seen...including Top Three, CGO, Chief's Group, 5/7 Mid-Tier, Airman's council, first sergeants council, weekly/monthly new comer's briefs.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 09:18:55 PM
I've been to BMT. I think they do need to add CAP to the BMT guide as part of the "this is the USAF" section. I think it needs to have a 1/2 page in the PFE study guide and be testable on WAPS. I think it needs to be included in PME. I think we need to be in 36-2903.
I'm not asking anyone to be a CAP expert or wasting anyone's valuable training time. But really...we are the USAF axillary...someone needs to tell the troops.
Having said that.....if your unit is withing 50 miles of an Air Force Base.....you had better have some sort of presence there! There are lots of ways to get seen...including Top Three, CGO, Chief's Group, 5/7 Mid-Tier, Airman's council, first sergeants council, weekly/monthly new comer's briefs.
I have to disagree with part one. There is to much more important things to be in the curriculum and the PDG than us. And it should not be testable by any means. It's already difficult enough to promote and it shouldn't be added to it.
Part Two yes someone needs to tell the troops but it doesn't have to be the AF.
Part Three agree wholeheartedly.
If I had to study about all those MAJCOMS, DRUs and stuff why not include a 1/2 page to CAP? It's not that much.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 09:35:44 PM
If I had to study about all those MAJCOMS, DRUs and stuff why not include a 1/2 page to CAP? It's not that much.
To you maybe. To the writers of the document no. You would really hamper an Airman's career by that? This would fall into the same category as the SARC briefings, being a good wingman, and DUIs.
No it would fall into the same category as AFMPC AU AFOSI and all those other acronyms I had to study at bats and for WAPS testing. I'm not saying we got to have yearly mass briefings. Just a presence in the official book of knowledge.
Quote from: PHall on October 26, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 25, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.
BTW, got a link to AFI 36-2701?
I went to the USAF e-Publishing website, http://www.e-publishing.af.mil (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil) , and there is no AFI 36-2701 listed. ???
No pubs between AFI 36-2650 and AFI 36-2706. ???
My mistake, it's AFI 10-2701. Lot's of interesting reading for people like you in that reg.
Enjoy!
OK, I've now read the Instruction cover to cover and I didn't see anything in there that addressed uniforms, rank, insignia or designing/controlling same.
Did I miss something or is this the wrong regulation again? ???
Try paragraphs 1.3.1, 1.3.2, 1.3.3 and 1.3.4.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 04:35:09 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.
I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?
No they shouldn't and definitely not during BMT.
Come now. You and I have both been to BMT. I firmly believe that a short briefing on CAP would be of much more use than yet another marathon underwear-folding session or a nightly briefing in the dayroom listening to the MTI impress upon you how great he is (OK, not all of them do that, but mine did). It would be
absolutely no trouble to use one (1) 30-minute session in the dayroom to say "Alright, this is who these people are and this is what they do."
A better place may be during Leadership school or NCO academy (if they still have such things). I think there'd be a much higher retention level. I never heard of CAP until one of my SrA walked in to my office wearing Lt bars.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 09:58:31 PM
No it would fall into the same category as AFMPC AU AFOSI and all those other acronyms I had to study at bats and for WAPS testing. I'm not saying we got to have yearly mass briefings. Just a presence in the official book of knowledge.
Why when we as the org should do a better job of marketing. You and I both know the average AF member doesn't care and won't care. Trying to jam it down their throats is not the way to go and all the agencies you listed are far more critical to the overall AF mission than CAP.
If CAP wants to be known is it upto CAP to market and brief not Ma Blue.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 26, 2014, 11:15:10 PM
Come now. You and I have both been to BMT. I firmly believe that a short briefing on CAP would be of much more use than yet another marathon underwear-folding session or a nightly briefing in the dayroom listening to the MTI impress upon you how great he is (OK, not all of them do that, but mine did). It would be absolutely no trouble to use one (1) 30-minute session in the dayroom to say "Alright, this is who these people are and this is what they do."
They don't do those marathon sessions anymore and sorry but as much as you want to cry about it BMT is not the place to teach about CAP there is much more important pieces of information to learn there.
Quote from: MSgt Van on October 26, 2014, 11:46:18 PM
A better place may be during Leadership school or NCO academy (if they still have such things). I think there'd be a much higher retention level. I never heard of CAP until one of my SrA walked in to my office wearing Lt bars.
I agree however their curriculum is tightly controlled by the Barnes Center and they don't have the time in the schedules. I tried to get a block of time done here and I am on good terms with the ALS staff and was shot down. Until Air University changes its mind it won't happen.
Because if it is not in the big book of knowledge it is not important.
Yes CAP needs to step up their game. But Ma Blue can do this little thing to help us out.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
Because if it is not in the big book of knowledge it is not important.
Yes CAP needs to step up their game. But Ma Blue can do this little thing to help us out.
Why should Ma Blue when it is more in our realm to do so? We are not that important in the big scheme of things to warrant half a page in something that directly impacts an AMNs career.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 11:58:59 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
Because if it is not in the big book of knowledge it is not important.
Yes CAP needs to step up their game. But Ma Blue can do this little thing to help us out.
Why should Ma Blue when it is more in our realm to do so? We are not that important in the big scheme of things to warrant half a page in something that directly impacts an AMNs career.
The national guard and air force reserves does not directly impact my career. AFSOI does not impact my career, The Air Force Historical Research Agency does not directly impact my career....but at one time they all had a blurb in the official book of knowledge.
I'm not asking for a briefing. I'm not asking for airman and officers to be able to run a CAP squadron. I'm simply asking for a presence in the official "this is the Air Force" book.
Consider all the BS the AF does make you do through out your career....this is NOT too much to ask.
No one in the USAF should ever say "never heard of CAP before" after basic training. They may simply know that it is "a bunch of civilians that help us out"....but it is scads better then what they know now.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 12:05:41 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 11:58:59 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
Because if it is not in the big book of knowledge it is not important.
Yes CAP needs to step up their game. But Ma Blue can do this little thing to help us out.
Why should Ma Blue when it is more in our realm to do so? We are not that important in the big scheme of things to warrant half a page in something that directly impacts an AMNs career.
The national guard and air force reserves does not directly impact my career. AFSOI does not impact my career, The Air Force Historical Research Agency does not directly impact my career....but at one time they all had a blurb in the official book of knowledge.
I'm not asking for a briefing. I'm not asking for airman and officers to be able to run a CAP squadron. I'm simply asking for a presence in the official "this is the Air Force" book.
Consider all the BS the AF does make you do through out your career....this is NOT too much to ask.
No one in the USAF should ever say "never heard of CAP before" after basic training. They may simply know that it is "a bunch of civilians that help us out"....but it is scads better then what they know now.
Ok but BMT is not the place and sure as heck not the PDG.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 27, 2014, 12:08:24 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 12:05:41 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 11:58:59 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
Because if it is not in the big book of knowledge it is not important.
Yes CAP needs to step up their game. But Ma Blue can do this little thing to help us out.
Why should Ma Blue when it is more in our realm to do so? We are not that important in the big scheme of things to warrant half a page in something that directly impacts an AMNs career.
The national guard and air force reserves does not directly impact my career. AFSOI does not impact my career, The Air Force Historical Research Agency does not directly impact my career....but at one time they all had a blurb in the official book of knowledge.
I'm not asking for a briefing. I'm not asking for airman and officers to be able to run a CAP squadron. I'm simply asking for a presence in the official "this is the Air Force" book.
Consider all the BS the AF does make you do through out your career....this is NOT too much to ask.
No one in the USAF should ever say "never heard of CAP before" after basic training. They may simply know that it is "a bunch of civilians that help us out"....but it is scads better then what they know now.
Ok but BMT is not the place and sure as heck not the PDG.
If it is not in the BMT guide or the PDG.....it does not exist for most airman.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 12:09:52 AM
If it is not in the BMT guide or the PDG.....it does not exist for most airman.
And you and I both know most Airmen won't care. It'll be like everything else in one ear and out the other.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 27, 2014, 12:36:47 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 12:09:52 AM
If it is not in the BMT guide or the PDG.....it does not exist for most airman.
And you and I both know most Airmen won't care. It'll be like everything else in one ear and out the other.
I don't want them to care....I want them to know.
CAP has zero impact on most Airmen, so a briefing about CAP at BMT would mean very little. Perhaps if we worried less about uniforms, insignias, promotions and whether Airmen know about us or greet us when in uniform, and instead focused of making significant contributions to Air Force operations and non-combat missions, then maybe, just maybe the Air Force would see us differently.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 12:37:43 AM
And you and I both know most Airmen won't care. It'll be like everything else in one ear and out the other.
I don't want them to care....I want them to know.
[/quote]
If they don't care they will not recall nor bother learning it. You and I both know that to be the case. I still say if the org wants people to know they need to put the info out and not the AF.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 11:52:21 PM
Why when we as the org should do a better job of marketing. You and I both know the average AF member doesn't care and won't care. Trying to jam it down their throats is not the way to go and all the agencies you listed are far more critical to the overall AF mission than CAP.
You certainly have a flair for the dramatic. A short briefing is not what I would call "jamming it down one's throat."
Not to mention that you commit the logical fallacy of hasty overgeneralisation when you say "you and I both know the average AF member doesn't care and won't care," then who owns the problem with that? Why DON'T they care? Maybe it is because they don't KNOW?
Not everything in this life is marketing-based. We are not a commodity to be bought or sold.
It almost sounds like you do not WANT CAP to be known by the Air Force. If that is the general attitude throughout the Air Force, then maybe we really do NOT need to be connected with them. Who knows, maybe the Army would be more welcoming to us and we would be more useful to them...saving them wear and tear on ArNG aircraft called out for SAR.
I know I sometimes get bloody sick and tired of having to defend CAP and its purpose (and why we wear their uniform) to Airmen who only know of CAP through apocryphal rumour and innuendo, but yet have the (sometimes) unspoken expectation of having to just stand and smile while said Airmen make fun of CAP, denigrate us, call us "wannabes," etc. Don't laugh, it does happen and I have been on the receiving end of it.
However, I decided long ago that I would not be the lightning rod for every CAP member who trolled for a salute, wore the uniform wrong, was rude to an AF member, tried to shop at the Commissary, tried to buy non-uniform items at the BX, tried to tell an AF member that s/he was out of uniform...I just simply say "Sir/Sergeant/Airman, if you're going to insult me, I have better things to do," and then walk away without another word.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 27, 2014, 12:41:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 12:37:43 AM
And you and I both know most Airmen won't care. It'll be like everything else in one ear and out the other.
I don't want them to care....I want them to know.
If they don't care they will not recall nor bother learning it. You and I both know that to be the case. I still say if the org wants people to know they need to put the info out and not the AF.
[/quote]I agree we need to step out game. The USAF can help us out a little by adding us to the BMTS guide and PDG. May be adding us to PME.
If out uniforms were a chapter in 36-2903 again we would have a presence in the official book of knowledge. Zero effort on anyone's part but we would be known.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 27, 2014, 12:44:41 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 11:52:21 PM
Why when we as the org should do a better job of marketing. You and I both know the average AF member doesn't care and won't care. Trying to jam it down their throats is not the way to go and all the agencies you listed are far more critical to the overall AF mission than CAP.
You certainly have a flair for the dramatic. A short briefing is not what I would call "jamming it down one's throat."
Not to mention that you commit the logical fallacy of hasty overgeneralisation when you say "you and I both know the average AF member doesn't care and won't care," then who owns the problem with that? Why DON'T they care? Maybe it is because they don't KNOW?
Not everything in this life is marketing-based. We are not a commodity to be bought or sold.
It almost sounds like you do not WANT CAP to be known by the Air Force. If that is the general attitude throughout the Air Force, then maybe we really do NOT need to be connected with them. Who knows, maybe the Army would be more welcoming to us and we would be more useful to them...saving them wear and tear on ArNG aircraft called out for SAR.
I know I sometimes get bloody sick and tired of having to defend CAP and its purpose (and why we wear their uniform) to Airmen who only know of CAP through apocryphal rumour and innuendo, but yet have the (sometimes) unspoken expectation of having to just stand and smile while said Airmen make fun of CAP, denigrate us, call us "wannabes," etc. Don't laugh, it does happen and I have been on the receiving end of it.
However, I decided long ago that I would not be the lightning rod for every CAP member who trolled for a salute, wore the uniform wrong, was rude to an AF member, tried to shop at the Commissary, tried to buy non-uniform items at the BX, tried to tell an AF member that s/he was out of uniform...I just simply say "Sir/Sergeant/Airman, if you're going to insult me, I have better things to do," and then walk away without another word.
Which shows completely what you know of the AF especially it's Airmen.
How much time do you spend with them daily? HOw much time do you spend listening to their interests and hobbies?
What I say is fact from my time in and that I see and am around them daily. A short 30 min briefing to you to a captive audience is jamming it down someone's throat.
I never said I don't want CAP to not be known I have simply said that if CAP wants to be know beyond what is know then they need to do it. And whether you see it and choose to believe it or not guess what this is a marketing issue.
Now maybe instead of crying about a problem you should take steps to fix it.
I was one of those Airmen once, which seems to have slipped your mind.
I was ANG, and we knew who CAP were. A lot of our members were dual members.
Save it with your "crying about it and take steps to fix it." Easy way out. I am a civilian, not in the ANG any more, and the closest AFB to me is exactly 272.75 miles from me, in another state. Except for Coast Guard Stations, there are NO active military installations in my state.
However, YOU are still in the Air Force. What are YOU doing to "sell us?"
If we were a government contractor trying to sell a good or service to the Air Force, your "marketing" idea may have some merit; i.e., Lockheed trying to sell C-130's or a local construction firm trying to secure a contract to upgrade base housing.
We are not a government contractor. We have a legal, statutory relationship with the Air Force, as defined by Federal law. If we did not have that, then there may be something to your insistence on "marketing."
However, that is not the case.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 12:40:32 AM
CAP has zero impact on most Airmen, so a briefing about CAP at BMT would mean very little. Perhaps if we worried less about uniforms, insignias, promotions and whether Airmen know about us or greet us when in uniform, and instead focused of making significant contributions to Air Force operations and non-combat missions, then maybe, just maybe the Air Force would see us differently.
How can we make significant contributions to their operations if they are not aware of us?
Quote from: CyBorg on October 27, 2014, 04:20:10 AM
How can we make significant contributions to their operations if they are not aware of us?
No one with mosquito wings is calling CAP out to "contribute".
They might be potential members, but aren't likely to have much time anyway.
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 04:31:33 AM
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
And by the time those few (about 1%) "skito wings" make Chief, they will have forgotten that 30-minute briefing they got 14+ years ago.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 27, 2014, 04:18:53 AM
I was one of those Airmen once, which seems to have slipped your mind.
I was ANG, and we knew who CAP were. A lot of our members were dual members.
Save it with your "crying about it and take steps to fix it." Easy way out. I am a civilian, not in the ANG any more, and the closest AFB to me is exactly 272.75 miles from me, in another state. Except for Coast Guard Stations, there are NO active military installations in my state.
However, YOU are still in the Air Force. What are YOU doing to "sell us?"
If we were a government contractor trying to sell a good or service to the Air Force, your "marketing" idea may have some merit; i.e., Lockheed trying to sell C-130's or a local construction firm trying to secure a contract to upgrade base housing.
We are not a government contractor. We have a legal, statutory relationship with the Air Force, as defined by Federal law. If we did not have that, then there may be something to your insistence on "marketing."
However, that is not the case.
1) Nope didn't slip my mind at all, but you're out of touch with today's AF and Airmen.
2) I'll save it for when you stop making excuses and start doing something about it to fix the issue you perceive.
3) I talk about to the Airmen in my office and my fellow NCOs outside of the office. In fact I have built a pretty good working relationship with our ALS here as well have helped to make base entry for CAP much easier. What have you done besides moan, piss and cry about it?
4&5) Irregardless of what you are trying to do you need to market. The AF has to market itself to the youth, other services and the elected leadership on Capitol Hill if you quit marketing you lose period.
Legal relationship or not you still need to market, you think the big businesses that are here today especially those who started small quit marketing no they haven't and won't.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 04:31:33 AM
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
You've hit on one of the major problems with CAP organizationally. There is no planning past the current operational period. Reaching out to airmen at the beginning of their careers sure beats trying to make them understand who we are as the balloon is going up....
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 27, 2014, 02:15:37 PMWhat have you done besides moan, piss and cry about it?
I'm with you on your other points, but not the "shoot the messenger" responses we get here too often.
Being able to tell a tire is flat doesn't automatically mean you have the skill, ability, or authority to fix it, and
others standing next to you on the side of the road saying "Well have you tried to fix it?" won't get the car back on the road.
The fix for CAP's identity issues need to start at well above the level of the majority of the posters on this forum.
Anybody know if CAP is still given space in THE BOOK? Seems to me that if the org is getting space there, it should be getting at least a mention to all airmen at some point....
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2014, 02:21:54 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 27, 2014, 02:15:37 PMWhat have you done besides moan, piss and cry about it?
I'm with you on your other points, but not the "shoot the messenger" responses we get here too often.
Being able to tell a tire is flat doesn't automatically mean you have the skill, ability, or authority to fix it, and
others standing next to you on the side of the road saying "Well have you tried to fix it?" won't get the car back on the road.
The fix for CAP's identity issues need to start at well above the level of the majority of the posters on this forum.
The fix does need to happen, but consistent crying about how Amn Snuffy of Boondocks AFB, doesn't know about us doesn't fix it. The people in the AF who need to know and have the pull to make things happen know about us. I can sit around here and cry and moan about things between the AF and us and the dynamic overall, but I don't. I take steps to try and rectify the issue and figure out the best COA of all involved.
If we as an organization want people to know about us it is up to us to inform them. If we want Amn Snuffy to know about us there are ways to go about it and BMT and the PDG are not the places for it. Sorry there are more important things to be done in those two realms than us. You want to do a brief at FTAC or a CC call or another org by all means go ahead and do so.
Sorry but the AF has bigger issues to attend to than educating it's members about us.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 27, 2014, 04:20:10 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 12:40:32 AM
CAP has zero impact on most Airmen, so a briefing about CAP at BMT would mean very little. Perhaps if we worried less about uniforms, insignias, promotions and whether Airmen know about us or greet us when in uniform, and instead focused of making significant contributions to Air Force operations and non-combat missions, then maybe, just maybe the Air Force would see us differently.
How can we make significant contributions to their operations if they are not aware of us?
That's putting the cart before the horse. We need to focus on what matters to the Air Force if we want them to see us as a partner. Worrying about uniforms, or getting promoted, or having Airmen acknowledge or greet us in order to get that good fuzzy-feeling is not what the Air Force wants or cares about.
In fact, there are many operational opportunities today (fire patrol, low-level surveys, aerial/ground photography, air intercept training/air defense exercises, etc.) that support the Air Force's needs. We need to continue focusing on these and other expanding opportunities that truly support the Air Force.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 27, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
The fix does need to happen, but consistent crying about how Amn Snuffy of Boondocks AFB, doesn't know about us doesn't fix it. The people in the AF who need to know and have the pull to make things happen know about us. I can sit around here and cry and moan about things between the AF and us and the dynamic overall, but I don't. I take steps to try and rectify the issue and figure out the best COA of all involved.
If we as an organization want people to know about us it is up to us to inform them. If we want Amn Snuffy to know about us there are ways to go about it and BMT and the PDG are not the places for it. Sorry there are more important things to be done in those two realms than us. You want to do a brief at FTAC or a CC call or another org by all means go ahead and do so.
Sorry but the AF has bigger issues to attend to than educating it's members about us.
Building on what you are saying, I recently contacted our local Air Force recruiter to ask him to come to our squadron to present his experiences in the Air Force to the cadets. The gentleman in question is a Staff Sergeant and he told me that he has never spoke to anyone from CAP. He has heard some vague things about us from his colleague recruiters and knew we were around him "somewhere" but had no idea on who we are or what we do.
The next 20 minutes of the conversation was spent on bringing him up to speed on our three missions and relationship with the Air Force.
He is coming out to meet with us in about a month and has already told his fellow recruiters about us, judging from the emailed questions I received about what we do.
Quote from: MacGruff on October 27, 2014, 03:02:08 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 27, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
The fix does need to happen, but consistent crying about how Amn Snuffy of Boondocks AFB, doesn't know about us doesn't fix it. The people in the AF who need to know and have the pull to make things happen know about us. I can sit around here and cry and moan about things between the AF and us and the dynamic overall, but I don't. I take steps to try and rectify the issue and figure out the best COA of all involved.
If we as an organization want people to know about us it is up to us to inform them. If we want Amn Snuffy to know about us there are ways to go about it and BMT and the PDG are not the places for it. Sorry there are more important things to be done in those two realms than us. You want to do a brief at FTAC or a CC call or another org by all means go ahead and do so.
Sorry but the AF has bigger issues to attend to than educating it's members about us.
Building on what you are saying, I recently contacted our local Air Force recruiter to ask him to come to our squadron to present his experiences in the Air Force to the cadets. The gentleman in question is a Staff Sergeant and he told me that he has never spoke to anyone from CAP. He has heard some vague things about us from his colleague recruiters and knew we were around him "somewhere" but had no idea on who we are or what we do.
The next 20 minutes of the conversation was spent on bringing him up to speed on our three missions and relationship with the Air Force.
He is coming out to meet with us in about a month and has already told his fellow recruiters about us, judging from the emailed questions I received about what we do.
That's because he just found a potential pool of recruits.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 27, 2014, 03:30:05 PM
That's because he just found a potential pool of recruits.
+1 I wouldn't get too excited about him writing a check. BTDT.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2014, 03:34:28 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 27, 2014, 03:30:05 PM
That's because he just found a potential pool of recruits.
+1 I wouldn't get too excited about him writing a check. BTDT.
I am reminded of the story of a former LO/State Director who came to one of my unit meetings and told us that our only real responsibility was to make sure cadets got their Mitchell so they could get their E-3 at BMT.
An Air Force recruiter not knowing about us is - yes, I will say it - inexcusable, considering that a potential enlistee's CAP service could bear on how s/he enlists in the Air Force.
I would hazard a guess that a Marine Corps recruiter is not similarly ignorant of the Young Marines, or a Navy/CG recruiter of the NSCC.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 02:55:28 PM
We need to focus on what matters to the Air Force if we want them to see us as a partner.
In fact, there are many operational opportunities today (fire patrol, low-level surveys, aerial/ground photography, air intercept training/air defense exercises, etc.) that support the Air Force's needs. We need to continue focusing on these and other expanding opportunities that truly support the Air Force.
All right, but an unspoken
possible implication is that they do
not see us as a partner, when clearly we are by law.
Those operational opportunities are fine - IF you are fortunate enough to live in an area with a high Air Force/ANG/AFRES presence. I read about those operations in the
CAP Volunteer and am frankly envious of the personnel fortunate enough to be able to take part.
Unfortunately, I do not. Two AFB's in my state fell victim to the BRAC axe and an ANG installation will probably fall victim to the next one...the only reason it hasn't yet is because our former Governor lobbied like heck to keep it.
The only real AF-support events I can recall CAP being called to take part in locally is to simulate disaster victims for the ANG (get moulaged, etc) - and the callout for that was for
cadets.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2014, 03:34:28 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 27, 2014, 03:30:05 PM
That's because he just found a potential pool of recruits.
+1 I wouldn't get too excited about him writing a check. BTDT.
Not asking him for a check, so did not schedule a run to the local bank either... ;D
I'm not surprised about his reaction to the request to come and present the Air Force to a bunch of possible recruits. It was exactly what I expected. I was simply reaffirming what this thread has morphed in to, there is a lack of knowledge of CAP amongst Air Force personnel. In a way, I suppose, I am doing my little bit to fix that... :angel:
Quote from: CyBorg on October 27, 2014, 08:50:19 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 02:55:28 PM
We need to focus on what matters to the Air Force if we want them to see us as a partner.
In fact, there are many operational opportunities today (fire patrol, low-level surveys, aerial/ground photography, air intercept training/air defense exercises, etc.) that support the Air Force's needs. We need to continue focusing on these and other expanding opportunities that truly support the Air Force.
All right, but an unspoken possible implication is that they do not see us as a partner, when clearly we are by law.
You're confusing our legal status as the Air Force Auxiliary with being an Air Force partner.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 27, 2014, 08:50:19 PM
Those operational opportunities are fine - IF you are fortunate enough to live in an area with a high Air Force/ANG/AFRES presence. I read about those operations in the CAP Volunteer and am frankly envious of the personnel fortunate enough to be able to take part.
Unfortunately, I do not. Two AFB's in my state fell victim to the BRAC axe and an ANG installation will probably fall victim to the next one...the only reason it hasn't yet is because our former Governor lobbied like heck to keep it.
The only real AF-support events I can recall CAP being called to take part in locally is to simulate disaster victims for the ANG (get moulaged, etc) - and the callout for that was for cadets.
You don't need to be close to an Air Force base to support some of these missions. In fact, you can support the AFRCC by participating in SAR and ELT search missions.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 09:17:56 PM
You're confusing our legal status as the Air Force Auxiliary with being an Air Force partner.
And yet, I can remember a time in the not-too-distant past when the Air Force proudly listed us as one of the four parts of the Team: Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard, and Civil Air Patrol.
That wasn't all that long ago, you know.
So what happened?
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on October 27, 2014, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 09:17:56 PM
You're confusing our legal status as the Air Force Auxiliary with being an Air Force partner.
And yet, I can remember a time in the not-too-distant past when the Air Force proudly listed us as one of the four parts of the Team: Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard, and Civil Air Patrol.
That wasn't all that long ago, you know.
So what happened?
Jack
To be honest, I don't remember that. Since I've been in the Air Force it's always been Active, Reserve, Guard and Civilians (as in government employees).
Either way, we are the Air Force Auxiliary and, as such, should be asking "how can we contribute to the Air Force mission", not so much "what has the Air Force done for me lately". I know CAP Talk is not CAP, but from reading some of these posts, it would be easy to get the impression that our priorities are focused on the wrong things.
Appreciation and respect are a two-way street.
Quote from: ColonelJack on October 27, 2014, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 09:17:56 PM
You're confusing our legal status as the Air Force Auxiliary with being an Air Force partner.
And yet, I can remember a time in the not-too-distant past when the Air Force proudly listed us as one of the four parts of the Team: Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard, and Civil Air Patrol.
That wasn't all that long ago, you know.
So what happened?
Jack
I don't remember that Jack, and I've been around, off and on, since Dec 1969.
Quote from: ColonelJack on October 27, 2014, 09:38:51 PM
So what happened?
The 90s, for starters.
(http://www.capitolmarkets.com/files/2012/01/Base-Closure.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Realignment_and_Closure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Realignment_and_Closure)
QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd yet, I can remember a time in the not-too-distant past when the Air Force proudly listed us as one of the four parts of the Team: Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard, and Civil Air Patrol.
To be honest, I don't remember that. Since I've been in the Air Force it's always been Active, Reserve, Guard and Civilians (as in government employees).
I don't remember that Jack, and I've been around, off and on, since Dec 1969.
It was an Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Manpower and Reserve Affairs (SAF/MR), who said it in a speech, and it was a point being made, not a slip-up. It seems to me it was five or so years ago. Somewhere I have (or had) the reference. CAP falls under the SAF/MR and it was the most recent one that signed off on the changes to the CAP NCO Corps.
Mike
Quote from: sardak on October 28, 2014, 03:37:55 AMIt was an Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Manpower and Reserve Affairs (SAF/MR), who said it in a speech, and it was a point being made, not a slip-up. It seems to me it was five or so years ago. Somewhere I have (or had) the reference. CAP falls under the SAF/MR and it was the most recent one that signed off on the changes to the CAP NCO Corps.
That rhetoric started popping up in the 2006-2007 era - certainly a lot of talk about it on here around then.
Sounded good in speeches, looked good on T-Shirts, amounted to exactly (( * ))...
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2014, 10:56:01 PM
Appreciation and respect are a two-way street.
As in most things in life.
Speaking purely for myself, I know I am less motivated to help someone out if I do not believe my help is appreciated and/or taken for granted.
This is kind of a "chicken-and-the-egg" theorem, but what comes first?
We bust it for the Air Force in the hope that they
might appreciate it and
notice us, much less consider us a "partner?"
The Air Force acknowledge us publicly as part of their "team" (as the USCG does with their Auxiliary...and save it with the "we're not them" line), which would cost the Air Force absolutely
NOTHING in practical terms, which would motivate us to help them more?
I'm not talking about salutes, uniforms, ribbons or any of that. I mean even small things like CAP-RAP. The last time I saw
any AF personnel connect with us was about four years ago. He was a Major, AFRES, airline pilot on civvy street, and a nice guy as it happens. He showed up at a squadron meeting in his flight suit and a CAP-USAF crest on his right sleeve. He openly admitted, "I'm not sure what I'm actually supposed to
do to help the CAP out." We never saw him again.
In contrast, when I first joined in 1993 my squadron CC called us "the Air Force's best-kept secret." Our then-LO visited my squadron on my second or third squadron meeting. Great guy. Even our next LO/SD was present at virtually all our Wing functions, and the short time we had an LNCO (SMSgt) he was too.
Oh, and as to whether or not we've been listed as part of "Team Air Force"...
I once knew a Lutheran pastor who was a former AFRES Chaplain. He told me "I used to see CAP people on virtually every base I was either assigned to or visiting...I had no problem saluting them or just saying hello."
This is not an official source, but if any of you have read Walter J. Boyne's history of the USAF,
Beyond The Wild Blue (a good read, as it happens), the last chapter is called "Guard, Reserve and Civil Air Patrol." He gives us almost as much page space as he does the ANG and AFRES.
To use just a
little space on blingage...we could replace a lot of CAP awards by using already-existing AF Civilian Awards; i.e., the Civilian Air Medal:
http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066 (http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066)
After all, when we are on AFAM's, we are considered an instrumentality of the Air Force.
If we can break our necks and/or lose our lives helping out the Air Force, then (and this is going to sound egotistical but honestly I don't care in this context) we bloody well can be recognised the same as other civilian members of "Team Air Force."
Quote from: CyBorg on October 28, 2014, 05:07:35 PM
To use just a little space on blingage...we could replace a lot of CAP awards by using already-existing AF Civilian Awards; i.e., the Civilian Air Medal:
http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066 (http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066)
After all, when we are on AFAM's, we are considered an instrumentality of the Air Force.
If we can break our necks and/or lose our lives helping out the Air Force, then (and this is going to sound egotistical but honestly I don't care in this context) we bloody well can be recognised the same as other civilian members of "Team Air Force."
CAP is not the same as the "other civilian members" of Team Air Force. Are you willing to deploy to coup some of these perks the rest of "Team Air Force" does?
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 28, 2014, 05:37:58 PM
CAP is not the same as the "other civilian members" of Team Air Force. Are you willing to deploy to coup some of these perks the rest of "Team Air Force" does?
Where, for what, and let's discuss compensation (oh wait, we don't get that).
Not all "deployments" are international, nor are they into war zones. A very good USAF
buddy of mine is regularly "deployed" in the CONUS to areas which turn the "deployment"
into a paycation.
I like paycations. (back on one this weekend, Lordmonor will feel the change in pressure when I step off the plane).
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2014, 05:47:44 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 28, 2014, 05:37:58 PM
CAP is not the same as the "other civilian members" of Team Air Force. Are you willing to deploy to coup some of these perks the rest of "Team Air Force" does?
Where, for what, and let's discuss compensation (oh wait, we don't get that).
Not all "deployments" are international, nor are they into war zones. A very good USAF
buddy of mine is regularly "deployed" in the CONUS to areas which turn the "deployment"
into a paycation.
I like paycations. (back on one this weekend, Lordmonor will feel the change in pressure when I step off the plane).
I am well aware of different deployment types as that is my day to day job. People want to cry about being recognized as AF civilian when not even in the same category they can do more.
The awards described are for AF civilians employed by the AF, which CAP does not fall under. If folks want that recognition then they can step up and do whats needed for it.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2014, 03:47:26 AM
Quote from: sardak on October 28, 2014, 03:37:55 AMIt was an Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Manpower and Reserve Affairs (SAF/MR), who said it in a speech, and it was a point being made, not a slip-up. It seems to me it was five or so years ago. Somewhere I have (or had) the reference. CAP falls under the SAF/MR and it was the most recent one that signed off on the changes to the CAP NCO Corps.
That rhetoric started popping up in the 2006-2007 era - certainly a lot of talk about it on here around then.
Sounded good in speeches, looked good on T-Shirts, amounted to exactly (( * ))...
I started hearing this right after 9-11. Our readiness and contribution to the efforts of many members gave us a shot in the ego. It was a marked improvement after the events of 1999.
I don't know how the guys at the Pentagon feel about us, however we have 4 members of the BoG which are appointed by the SECAF. One of those members is the 1st AF commander. I would hope that means something.
Should CAP members be eligible for AF civilian awards? That's a good question, and should be looked at by those who can make a difference. Would it help us retain members? It may. I really don't think this has been part of "the conversation" until now. Maybe someone will investigate the possibility of it happening. I think it would be a good thing... YMMV :D
Quote from: THRAWN on October 27, 2014, 02:40:37 PM
Anybody know if CAP is still given space in THE BOOK? Seems to me that if the org is getting space there, it should be getting at least a mention to all airmen at some point....
Well, CAP did get a mention in the 1959 edition of The Air Force Blue Book.
(http://i.imgur.com/LFeWBDF.jpg)
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 28, 2014, 05:55:32 PM
I am well aware of different deployment types as that is my day to day job. People want to cry about being recognized as AF civilian when not even in the same category they can do more.
The awards described are for AF civilians employed by the AF, which CAP does not fall under. If folks want that recognition then they can step up and do whats needed for it.
Leave it to friend abdsp51 to provide opposition and admonition to "step up and do what's needed," without describing
what is needed.
When we are on AFAM's, I would say that we are "employed by the Air Force."
S'funny, you once accused me erroneously of not having anything good to say about CAP or the Air Force, when it seems you do not have much good to say about CAP, from an AF POV.
Quote from: skymaster on October 28, 2014, 08:12:52 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on October 27, 2014, 02:40:37 PM
Anybody know if CAP is still given space in THE BOOK? Seems to me that if the org is getting space there, it should be getting at least a mention to all airmen at some point....
Well, CAP did get a mention in the 1959 edition of The Air Force Blue Book.
(http://i.imgur.com/LFeWBDF.jpg)
I spy with my little eye a snowflake with white shoelaces.
Quote from: FW on October 28, 2014, 06:51:49 PMShould CAP members be eligible for AF civilian awards?
Do they give awards to contractors? That's the closest analogy I can think of. If they do, then there's no reason CAP members wouldn't qualify.
CAP members aren't ever civilian employees, even a little, and it has its own awards and decorations.
It doesn't qualify and doesn't need to.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2014, 04:14:53 AM
It doesn't qualify and doesn't need to.
Why and why?
I know we have our own decs, but some of those could be replaced with more-specific AF civilian awards...example: the various Medals of Valour could be replaced/supplemented by the Civilian Air Medal for flight-specific deeds.
That would be in keeping with our history, since we were once eligible for the military Air Medal.
Again, I know "we're not them," but CGAux members are eligible for certain noncombat CG decorations,
in addition to specific Auxiliary awards.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 29, 2014, 01:59:33 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2014, 04:14:53 AM
It doesn't qualify and doesn't need to.
Why and why?
When and why what? We don't qualify because we don't meet the primary criteria any more then a forward-deployed AAFES
employee can receive the SMV.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 29, 2014, 01:59:33 PM
I know we have our own decs, but some of those could be replaced with more-specific AF civilian awards...example: the various Medals of Valour could be replaced/supplemented by the Civilian Air Medal for flight-specific deeds.
That would be in keeping with our history, since we were once eligible for the military Air Medal.
We were also once involved in combat support operations. That's no longer the case.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 29, 2014, 01:59:33 PM
Again, I know "we're not them," but CGAux members are eligible for certain noncombat CG decorations, in addition to specific Auxiliary awards.
The CGAux supports most actual Coast Guard missions, with the exception of military and law enforcement operations. That's not the case with CAP and the Air Force. Other than providing a potential pool of recruits, how does Cadet Programs
directly support Air Force operations? What's the
tangible impact that Aerospace Education has on the Air Force today? Even within Emergency Services, only SAR directly supports the AFRCC, which is a relatively small unit within the Air Force.
Our support of Disaster Relief, Homeland Security, Counterdrugs, etc. greatly benefit our nation, but for the most part have little impact on Air Force operations. I submit that if we want to have a closer relationship with the Air Force as its Auxiliary, we should continue to expand our support of Air Force operations and non-combat/humanitarian missions.
AFI 36-1004, "The Air Force Civilian Recoginition Program" defines who is eligible for USAF civilian awards, who is considered an employee, which awards are for non-employees, and the criteria for the awards. In answer to a question from someone else, contractors are ineligible for USAF civilian awards.
Mike
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2014, 02:40:01 PM
We were also once involved in combat support operations. That's no longer the case.
Could it be the case again? I don't mean mounting Miniguns on C172s, but maybe assisting AFRES/ANG in mobilisation when they get called-up, similar to what SDF's do to help out their National Guard units.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2014, 02:40:01 PM
The CGAux supports most actual Coast Guard missions, with the exception of military and law enforcement operations.
My experience as a former Auxie says that a lot of that depends on how close you were to a CG station/CGAS. Now you also have to go through an additional security clearance if you want to augment (colloquially called an AuxieAugie).
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2014, 02:40:01 PM
I submit that if we want to have a closer relationship with the Air Force as its Auxiliary, we should continue to expand our support of Air Force operations and non-combat/humanitarian missions.
And I am with you 1,000% on that. The question is: how do we go about that?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 10:26:58 PM
Try paragraphs 1.3.1, 1.3.2, 1.3.3 and 1.3.4.
OK, my bad thank you.
1.3.1. CAP Grade. The Air Force through the CAP-USAF/CC has authority over the CAP grade structure. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval of the CAP-USAF/CC. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces. CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity.Still does not address the input for change by CAP. For example, I truly doubt anyone at CAP-USAF came in and said "Hey let's change the whole structure of the CAP NCO Corps today!" As we all know, that was the outgoing CAP Commander's pet project. A pet project developed by CAP, for CAP... approved by CAP-USAF. So if a future CAP commander came up with a project to do away with Officer Rank and to convert everyone to a Warrant Officer, would CAP-USAF be as equally receptive? As Eclipse likes to point out, there really no need to change the current NCO structure, yet they did. Someone sold CAP-USAF on the idea and they signed off on it.
1.3.2 Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air Force-style uniforms IAW CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific missions dictate). CAP-USAF/CC controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members and must approve of CAP uniforms to ensure they remain sufficiently distinct from Air Force-style uniforms.Again, it does not address input. So who came up with grey/whites, CAP-USAF or CAP? Somehow I just don't see a group of Air Force Officers and Senior NCOs on a MACOM Staff coming up with their version of a Hornitos Tequila commercial. (Grey trousers? Any Grey trousers.) Most likely a CAP input signed off on CAP-USAF.
1.3.3 Air Force-Style Uniform Wear and Grooming Standards. CAP members who choose to wear the Air Force-style uniform must maintain appearance and grooming standards comparable to the Air Force standards, IAW AFI 36-2903, Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel. When wearing the Air Force-style uniform, all CAP members are required to present a professional military image. Members who do not meet these standards are restricted from wearing the Air Force-style uniform but are not barred from membership or active participation in CAP. In these circumstances, members may only wear authorized non-Air Force-style CAP uniforms or civilian attire as appropriate. Variations in these standards are subject to CAP-USAF/CC approval.Clearly here is where the "fat and fuzzies" are addressed, got it.
1.3.4 CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light conditions. CAP-USAF/CC must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform. CAP uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.Again, it does not address input. So who developed the NCO chevrons, CAP-USAF or CAP? I suspect the previous CAP Commander in his "plan" submitted his design (or his approved design) for CAP NCO chevrons. Did he (or his artist) add the "CAP" or was that a CAP-USAF added "correction" to his plan?
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 11:52:21 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 09:58:31 PM
No it would fall into the same category as AFMPC AU AFOSI and all those other acronyms I had to study at bats and for WAPS testing. I'm not saying we got to have yearly mass briefings. Just a presence in the official book of knowledge.
Why when we as the org should do a better job of marketing. You and I both know the average AF member doesn't care and won't care. Trying to jam it down their throats is not the way to go and all the agencies you listed are far more critical to the overall AF mission than CAP.
If CAP wants to be known is it upto CAP to market and brief not Ma Blue.
If you read what I suggested, a CAP member would conduct the briefing, we just need the USAF to give us the time to do it in. No extra work foisted upon an already overworked USAF instructor.
Quote from: shuman14 on October 29, 2014, 09:27:16 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 10:26:58 PM
Try paragraphs 1.3.1, 1.3.2, 1.3.3 and 1.3.4.
OK, my bad thank you.
1.3.1. CAP Grade. The Air Force through the CAP-USAF/CC has authority over the CAP grade structure. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval of the CAP-USAF/CC. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces. CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity.
Still does not address the input for change by CAP. For example, I truly doubt anyone at CAP-USAF came in and said "Hey let's change the whole structure of the CAP NCO Corps today!" As we all know, that was the outgoing CAP Commander's pet project. A pet project developed by CAP, for CAP... approved by CAP-USAF. So if a future CAP commander came up with a project to do away with Officer Rank and to convert everyone to a Warrant Officer, would CAP-USAF be as equally receptive? As Eclipse likes to point out, there really no need to change the current NCO structure, yet they did. Someone sold CAP-USAF on the idea and they signed off on it.
1.3.2 Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air Force-style uniforms IAW CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific missions dictate). CAP-USAF/CC controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members and must approve of CAP uniforms to ensure they remain sufficiently distinct from Air Force-style uniforms.
Again, it does not address input. So who came up with grey/whites, CAP-USAF or CAP? Somehow I just don't see a group of Air Force Officers and Senior NCOs on a MACOM Staff coming up with their version of a Hornitos Tequila commercial. (Grey trousers? Any Grey trousers.) Most likely a CAP input signed off on CAP-USAF.
1.3.3 Air Force-Style Uniform Wear and Grooming Standards. CAP members who choose to wear the Air Force-style uniform must maintain appearance and grooming standards comparable to the Air Force standards, IAW AFI 36-2903, Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel. When wearing the Air Force-style uniform, all CAP members are required to present a professional military image. Members who do not meet these standards are restricted from wearing the Air Force-style uniform but are not barred from membership or active participation in CAP. In these circumstances, members may only wear authorized non-Air Force-style CAP uniforms or civilian attire as appropriate. Variations in these standards are subject to CAP-USAF/CC approval.
Clearly here is where the "fat and fuzzies" are addressed, got it.
1.3.4 CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light conditions. CAP-USAF/CC must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform. CAP uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.
Again, it does not address input. So who developed the NCO chevrons, CAP-USAF or CAP? I suspect the previous CAP Commander in his "plan" submitted his design (or his approved design) for CAP NCO chevrons. Did he (or his artist) add the "CAP" or was that a CAP-USAF added "correction" to his plan?
In most cases, the initial input comes from CAP. CAP-USAF may provide additional input and/or feedback. CAP-USAF is the final authority for CAP's grade structure and changes to the CAP's Air Force-style uniform.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 11:58:59 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
Because if it is not in the big book of knowledge it is not important.
Yes CAP needs to step up their game. But Ma Blue can do this little thing to help us out.
Why should Ma Blue when it is more in our realm to do so? We are not that important in the big scheme of things to warrant half a page in something that directly impacts an AMNs career.
Because CAP can't just insert knowledge of itself into the Air Force's knowledgebase without the USAF's approval.
And I can see several ways that knowledge of CAP can enhance that Airman's career... can't you? :-\
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 04:31:33 AM
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
And by the time those few (about 1%) "skito wings" make Chief, they will have forgotten that 30-minute briefing they got 14+ years ago.
As someone who is both an USAF officer and a CAP officer you really seem to have a low opinion of CAP and its worth to the USAF. :-[
Quote from: THRAWN on October 27, 2014, 02:21:16 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 04:31:33 AM
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
You've hit on one of the major problems with CAP organizationally. There is no planning past the current operational period. Reaching out to airmen at the beginning of their careers sure beats trying to make them understand who we are as the balloon is going up....
:clap:
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 28, 2014, 05:37:58 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 28, 2014, 05:07:35 PM
To use just a little space on blingage...we could replace a lot of CAP awards by using already-existing AF Civilian Awards; i.e., the Civilian Air Medal:
http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066 (http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066)
After all, when we are on AFAM's, we are considered an instrumentality of the Air Force.
If we can break our necks and/or lose our lives helping out the Air Force, then (and this is going to sound egotistical but honestly I don't care in this context) we bloody well can be recognised the same as other civilian members of "Team Air Force."
CAP is not the same as the "other civilian members" of Team Air Force. Are you willing to deploy to coup some of these perks the rest of "Team Air Force" does?
Perhaps this is where CAP can take some examples from the USCGAux.
Fully considered part of "Team Coast Guard", awarded many USCG decorations for supporting the Coast Guard mission, does deploy (in non direct Combat and Law Enforcement missions) CONUS and OCONUS on a limited basis and need.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2014, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 29, 2014, 01:59:33 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2014, 04:14:53 AM
It doesn't qualify and doesn't need to.
Why and why?
When and why what? We don't qualify because we don't meet the primary criteria any more then a forward-deployed AAFES
employee can receive the SMV.
Unit awards are perfect example. If a CAP unit, directly supporting an USAF base, unit, and/or mission, does an outstanding job, it should be recognized... by the USAF with a USAF award.
If different Services can award each other unit awards for this type of "teamwork" it's not out-of-bounds to suggest that the same could, and should apply to CAP.
Quote from: shuman14 on October 29, 2014, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 04:31:33 AM
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
And by the time those few (about 1%) "skito wings" make Chief, they will have forgotten that 30-minute briefing they got 14+ years ago.
As someone who is both an USAF officer and a CAP officer you really seem to have a low opinion of CAP and its worth to the USAF. :-[
My years of service in CAP, actively supporting all missions, and track record, which includes numerous contributions to CAP at the unit, group and wing levels, say otherwise.
What have you done for CAP lately?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2014, 10:03:22 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 29, 2014, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 04:31:33 AM
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
And by the time those few (about 1%) "skito wings" make Chief, they will have forgotten that 30-minute briefing they got 14+ years ago.
As someone who is both an USAF officer and a CAP officer you really seem to have a low opinion of CAP and its worth to the USAF. :-[
My years of service in CAP, actively supporting all missions, and track record, which includes numerous contributions to CAP at the unit, group and wing levels, say otherwise.
What have you done for CAP lately?
Still doesn't change the fact that you seem to be talking CAP "down", at least in this thread, why is that? :(
Quote from: Fubar on October 29, 2014, 04:07:47 AM
Quote from: FW on October 28, 2014, 06:51:49 PMShould CAP members be eligible for AF civilian awards?
Do they give awards to contractors? That's the closest analogy I can think of. If they do, then there's no reason CAP members wouldn't qualify.
Nope, nichts, nein. Government contractors are at the bottom of the pile.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on October 29, 2014, 10:18:25 PM
Quote from: Fubar on October 29, 2014, 04:07:47 AM
Quote from: FW on October 28, 2014, 06:51:49 PMShould CAP members be eligible for AF civilian awards?
Do they give awards to contractors? That's the closest analogy I can think of. If they do, then there's no reason CAP members wouldn't qualify.
Nope, nichts, nein. Government contractors are at the bottom of the pile.
And AlphaSigOU has been a Government Contractor so he knows of what he speaks.
And the number of the AFI that says they aren't eligibile was posted earlier in the thread.
Mike
Read it mysel, CAP doesn't apply. And sorry but I need my Airman focusing on more important issues than CAP.
Quote from: shuman14 on October 29, 2014, 10:10:27 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2014, 10:03:22 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 29, 2014, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 04:31:33 AM
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
And by the time those few (about 1%) "skito wings" make Chief, they will have forgotten that 30-minute briefing they got 14+ years ago.
As someone who is both an USAF officer and a CAP officer you really seem to have a low opinion of CAP and its worth to the USAF. :-[
My years of service in CAP, actively supporting all missions, and track record, which includes numerous contributions to CAP at the unit, group and wing levels, say otherwise.
What have you done for CAP lately?
Still doesn't change the fact that you seem to be talking CAP "down", at least in this thread, why is that? :(
Not at all, just members like you who don't do anything for CAP, seem to focus on things that are trivial, and always have an opinion on how to "fix" CAP without actually knowing how the organization really works.
And by the way, you still didn't answer my question.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 30, 2014, 03:22:01 AM
Not at all, just members like you who don't do anything for CAP, seem to focus on things that are trivial, and always have an opinion on how to "fix" CAP without actually knowing how the organization really works.
And by the way, you still didn't answer my question.
And he probably won't too busy trying to figure how to fix and interjecting his opinion any chance he gets.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 30, 2014, 03:22:01 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 29, 2014, 10:10:27 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2014, 10:03:22 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 29, 2014, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 27, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2014, 04:31:33 AM
One day those skito wings wi be Chiefs
And by the time those few (about 1%) "skito wings" make Chief, they will have forgotten that 30-minute briefing they got 14+ years ago.
As someone who is both an USAF officer and a CAP officer you really seem to have a low opinion of CAP and its worth to the USAF. :-[
My years of service in CAP, actively supporting all missions, and track record, which includes numerous contributions to CAP at the unit, group and wing levels, say otherwise.
What have you done for CAP lately?
Still doesn't change the fact that you seem to be talking CAP "down", at least in this thread, why is that? :(
Not at all, just members like you who don't do anything for CAP, seem to focus on things that are trivial, and always have an opinion on how to "fix" CAP without actually knowing how the organization really works.
And by the way, you still didn't answer my question.
I paid my membership dues on time. What more does a Patron member do? ;)
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 30, 2014, 04:03:12 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 30, 2014, 03:22:01 AM
Not at all, just members like you who don't do anything for CAP, seem to focus on things that are trivial, and always have an opinion on how to "fix" CAP without actually knowing how the organization really works.
And by the way, you still didn't answer my question.
And he probably won't too busy trying to figure how to fix and interjecting his opinion any chance he gets.
No figuring it out... I just log into CAPTalk and get on my electronic soapbox. ;D
I know you dislike me but I do stimulate discussion. I know you don't like the stimulation because the issues I address are glaring... so glaring that even those of us outside of CAP can see them.
In Storm Chaser's defence, I have never read a post from him slagging CAP from an AF POV, though I have read that from others.
The fact is...the only way we would know whether CAP would be eligible for any of the AF civilian decs is if someone were to find out who to ask and then ask.
That would take going through a very creaky Chain of Command that often leads down blind alleyways, and would be unlikely to happen because too many of us are content with status-quo CAP (and not just on this issue).
Having said that, I would welcome the opportunity for more direct support to the AF, chest candy or not.
Quote from: shuman14 on October 30, 2014, 11:23:21 AMWhat more does a Patron member do?
Nothing,
literally, unless specifically invited.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2014, 04:14:53 AM
CAP members aren't ever civilian employees, even a little, and it has its own awards and decorations.
It doesn't qualify and doesn't need to.
AFI 36-1004, Chapter 7.
I would suspect that any CAP member could qualify for those awards... if they meet the actual criteria of the awards listed there.
Disqualified with the first sentence: "This instruction describes a program to recognize the achievements of civilian employees. "
CAP members, per se, are not "employees".
Edit: Was reading an older version.
Employees have to be paid. CAP members do not get paid.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2014, 06:21:05 PM
Disqualified with the first sentence: "This instruction describes a program to recognize the achievements of civilian employees. "
CAP members, per se, are not "employees".
AFI 36-1004 Chapter 7, 7.1:
Quote7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.
Reading is fundamental. ;)
Quote from: PHall on November 08, 2014, 06:33:57 PM
Employees have to be paid. CAP members do not get paid.
What about volunteer interns at a private corporation? They are considered "quasi-employees."
Quote from: CyBorg on November 08, 2014, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: PHall on November 08, 2014, 06:33:57 PM
Employees have to be paid. CAP members do not get paid.
What about volunteer interns at a private corporation? They are considered "quasi-employees."
First, irrelevant to this conversation, second, legally they are not employees, "quasi" notwithstanding.
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 06:36:35 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2014, 06:21:05 PM
Disqualified with the first sentence: "This instruction describes a program to recognize the achievements of civilian employees. "
CAP members, per se, are not "employees".
AFI 36-1004 Chapter 7, 7.1:
Quote7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.
Reading is fundamental. ;)
(Note corrections to my post above).
Yes, it is, and if you read the eligibility and examples, nothing CAP does as normal or even extraordinary course of business
is even in that lane, let alone would qualify for decoration.
CAP has its own awards program which is suited to the task and allows for members to actually wear the decorations,
something not really open to civilian employees, nor that would be allowed if one of these was presented to a member.
If some CAP member wanders away from a Pentagon tour group, and somehow finds himself "advising a DOD committee",
whomever allowed that to happen should be immediately escorted, under guard, out of the building.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 08, 2014, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: PHall on November 08, 2014, 06:33:57 PM
Employees have to be paid. CAP members do not get paid.
What about volunteer interns at a private corporation? They are considered "quasi-employees."
They are employees with respect to the fact that the employer controls their activities.
The Air Force does not control any CAP activities. Not even A1 missions are under the control of the Air Force, they ask us if we are able to accept the mission or not, and the exercise of that mission is at our discretion. We only coordinate with the USAF. We are much more akin to contractors than we are employees.
Agreed, and in fact CAP is treated that way as well, for all the good and bad which that entails.
AFI 36-1004
2.8.1. Civilian Employees. Civilian employees who meet the definition of "employee" under 5 United States Code (U.S.C) 2105 are eligible to receive awards under this subchapter.
2.8.5.1. DoD 1400.25-M, Subsection 451, prohibits awards to individuals or entities in a profit making or commercial relationship with the DoD. Awards may not be created to recognize contractor efforts and contractors are ineligible to participate in Air Force awards program created for Air Force civilian personnel.
7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.
7.2. Eligibility. Non-governmental personnel, groups or organizations ineligible for recognition under previous chapters in this AF Instruction or the military decorations program, may be considered for recognition under this chapter.
Mike
7.2 pretty much defines CAP. (Thanks Mike)
I would submit, for the good of the order, that most CAP missions and/or members could qualify for recognition under:
7.7. Commander's Public Service Award.
Quote7.7.1. Purpose. To recognize service or achievements which contribute significantly to the accomplishment of the mission of an Air Force activity, command, or staff agency.
7.7.2. Eligibility. Citizens of entities (groups, business firms or organizations) not employed by the Department of Air Force, who have assisted with specific achievements, major unit projects or helped a unit reach major milestones, or who have provided support to the base/unit over a set and limited period of time. Service must clearly demonstrate specific examples of how the citizen's dedication and commitment significantly contributed to the improvement of conditions for base personnel, facilities or mission. Air Force policy expressly prohibits recognizing individuals or entities in a commercial or profit making relationship with the DoD (to include contractors) with this award (refer to paragraph 7.2.). A civic leader may only receive this award once every five years. The nomination must contain comments that the services cited were voluntary, performed as a public service, or motivated by patriotism with no implication to remuneration, and that the person recommended had no commercial or profit-making relationship with the Air Force. Examples of achievements include, but are not limited to:
7.7.2.1. Significant achievements which resulted in significant savings of time, manpower, or money to the government.
7.7.2.2. Achievement and effort in the areas of humanitarian efforts, mission impact, unit facilities, and/or support of unit personnel.
7.7.2.3. Personal time and/or resources expended that helped achieve a successful project outcome.
7.7.3. Process. Any Air Force employee may nominate a non-Air Force individual for this award. A one-page written recommendation describing specific accomplishments, with an attached citation. The proposed citation should be written in third person and include organization, installation, dates of the award period for which recommended, and a statement of achievement. Nominations should be completed on the AF IMT 1768, Staff Summary Sheet and describe the specific accomplishments in bullet format, not to exceed one page. The nominations must be submitted at least 60 days before the desired presentation.
7.7.4. Approving Authorities.
7.7.4.1. MAJCOM CC/CV/CL
7.7.4.2. Any commander (colonel and above) and CL or Director equivalent
7.7.4.3. Principal Officials of HQ Staff agencies
7.7.4.4. General officers or SES-level civilians
7.7.5. Award Description. A silver medal, 1-3/8" in diameter, terrestrial globe, grid-lined and charged with the winged logo of the United States Air Force with the inscription "COMMANDER'S PUBLIC SERVICE AWARD" above, and, in the base, two sprigs of laurel. The medal set (Stock #8455-01-540-5289) consists of the medal and lapel pin and is available through the Defense Supply System. Air Force Form 4340, Commander's Public Service Award, will accompany the award; available through AF E-Publishing (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil)).
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 09:55:34 PM
I would submit,
Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 09:55:34 PM
I would submit,
Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.
You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. ::)
I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?
I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.
So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? ???
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 11:17:18 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 09:55:34 PM
I would submit,
Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.
You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. ::)
I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?
I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.
So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? ???
Thank you so much for quoting an Air Force Instruction to us. That clarifies, well, everything. Now all of CAP "problems" are solved. What would CAP do without you? >:D
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 01:28:03 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 11:17:18 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 09:55:34 PM
I would submit,
Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.
You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. ::)
I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?
I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.
So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? ???
Thank you so much for quoting an Air Force Instruction to us. That clarifies, well, everything. Now all of CAP "problems" are solved. What would CAP do without you? >:D
Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.
Quote from: arajca on November 09, 2014, 01:38:31 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 01:28:03 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 11:17:18 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 09:55:34 PM
I would submit,
Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.
You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. ::)
I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?
I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.
So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? ???
Thank you so much for quoting an Air Force Instruction to us. That clarifies, well, everything. Now all of CAP "problems" are solved. What would CAP do without you? >:D
Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.
Sure, if the Air Force wants to give CAP members an award under Chapter 7, they probably can. However, it would not be as "civilian employees", which is how this discussion started.
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 06:15:26 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2014, 04:14:53 AM
CAP members aren't ever civilian employees, even a little, and it has its own awards and decorations.
It doesn't qualify and doesn't need to.
AFI 36-1004, Chapter 7.
I would suspect that any CAP member could qualify for those awards... if they meet the actual criteria of the awards listed there.
Now, on a side note, reading and quoting a regulation does not make one an expert on that subject, as some may want to believe.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 02:03:43 AM
Now, on a side note, reading and quoting a regulation does not make one an expert on that subject, as some may want to believe.
But it does make you a "Barracks Lawyer"! >:D
Quote from: arajca on November 09, 2014, 01:38:31 AM
Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.
No, he didn't. Because of this...
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 02:03:43 AM
Sure, if the Air Force wants to give CAP members an award under Chapter 7, they probably can. However, it would not be as "civilian employees", which is how this discussion started.
You can't cherry pick a couple of sentences and ignore the spirit and intention which is to recognize civilian employees.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2014, 03:28:39 AM
Quote from: arajca on November 09, 2014, 01:38:31 AM
Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.
No, he didn't. Because of this...
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 02:03:43 AM
Sure, if the Air Force wants to give CAP members an award under Chapter 7, they probably can. However, it would not be as "civilian employees", which is how this discussion started.
You can't cherry pick a couple of sentences and ignore the spirit and intention which is to recognize civilian employees.
Eclipse....when it comes to CAP regs....argue away.
When it comes to AFIs....don't go there.
The AFI spells out a program to recognize non-AF civilians, non-contractors personnel and groups who help with the AF mission.
So yes we can get said award.
We just need a MAJCOM commander who gives a rats FPOC.
NOW HERE's THE REAL KICKER.
If some AF GO did award this to some CAP members who saved the day.....and documented it in triplicate.....would they be able to wear it on their CAP uniforms?
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
No.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 01:28:03 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 11:17:18 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2014, 09:55:34 PM
I would submit,
Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.
You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. ::)
I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?
I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.
So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? ???
Thank you so much for quoting an Air Force Instruction to us. That clarifies, well, everything. Now all of CAP "problems" are solved. What would CAP do without you? >:D
Glad you're finally starting to recognize my value to the organization! Please let me know if there are anymore problems I can solve for you. :P
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2014, 01:52:26 PM
No.
I believe you are partially mistaken, I will cite for you (if you please).
Per CAP Manual 39-1, Chapter 11
Quote11.2.1.1. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903.
Per AFI 36-2903, Chapter 4
Quote4.5. Order of Precedence. Arrange ribbons and medals in the order shown in Figure 4.1. Wear the
medal with the highest precedence nearest the lapel on the top row.
Figure 4.1, Block 44
QuoteUnited States Nonmilitary Decorations (See note 3.)
And finally Note 3
Quote... Do not wear these decorations unless you wear US military decorations and service medals. If you wear more than one, arrange them in the order of acceptance. If you wear two or more from the same agency, that agency decides the precedence. Ribbons must be the same size as Air Force ribbons ...
So I would submit to you
if a CAP member, while in the preformance of CAP duties, was award a USAF Civilian Decoration under AFI 36-1004 Chapter 7, 7.1 he/she could wear it
if said CAP member:
1. Is authorized to wear the USAF Style uniform
and
2. Is prior US Military and has been award at least one US Military medal.
"Thus Endeth The Lesson" ;)
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2014, 03:28:39 AM
Quote from: arajca on November 09, 2014, 01:38:31 AM
Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.
No, he didn't. Because of this...
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 02:03:43 AM
Sure, if the Air Force wants to give CAP members an award under Chapter 7, they probably can. However, it would not be as "civilian employees", which is how this discussion started.
You can't cherry pick a couple of sentences and ignore the spirit and intention which is to recognize civilian employees.
The "spirit and intent" are very clear...
Quote7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.
Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.
Seriously,
you called
him a cherry picker. ::)
Quote from: PHall on November 09, 2014, 02:50:44 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 02:03:43 AM
Now, on a side note, reading and quoting a regulation does not make one an expert on that subject, as some may want to believe.
But it does make you a "Barracks Lawyer"! >:D
Or a "Sea Lawyer" if you are nautically inclined. :)
Quote from: Private Investigator on November 09, 2014, 03:38:24 PM
Quote from: PHall on November 09, 2014, 02:50:44 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2014, 02:03:43 AM
Now, on a side note, reading and quoting a regulation does not make one an expert on that subject, as some may want to believe.
But it does make you a "Barracks Lawyer"! >:D
Or a "Sea Lawyer" if you are nautically inclined. :)
(http://www.duffelblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Barracks_Lawyer.jpg)
;D
Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
Quote7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.
Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.
No they are not, when they are serving in their capacity as members, they are no longer the "general public".
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2014, 04:33:05 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
Quote7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.
Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.
No they are not, when they are serving in their capacity as members, they are no longer the "general public".
Then are we civilian employees or contractors?
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2014, 04:33:05 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
Quote7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.
Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.
No they are not, when they are serving in their capacity as members, they are no longer the "general public".
Cite please.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 09, 2014, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2014, 04:33:05 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
Quote7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.
Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.
No they are not, when they are serving in their capacity as members, they are no longer the "general public".
Then are we civilian employees or contractors?
(http://www.emofaces.com/png/200/smilies/popcorneating.png)
I like to consider myself a relatively intelligent and well-educated individual, and in most cases I have no trouble following threads on CAPTalk as they morph from one topic to another in the same string of messages.
However, I must confess that I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how a thread that started with a CAP SNCO bidding farewell to our organization because the new chevrons look like (insert your favorite pejorative word here) to a back-and-forth over whether we as CAP members can earn and wear AF civilian medals.
Did I miss something? Or should I just salute and move on? :D
Jack
Not sure how that happened either Sir... but here we are. :)