CAP Talk

A bit of discussion ago I mentioned I was at the 000/parent wing and this would render me as a patron/reserve status in my membership; but I have not received a new membership card (which I should have gotten if I were a patron member because the regulation 39-2 specifically states that patron members get a specialty annotated membership card).

So am I really a patron member or not? And how do I find out?

Log into eservices - your member status will show in your records.

If you go into OPS quals, if you are patron, you won't have any.

Going to 000 doesn't automatically put you in patron, that's a two-step process.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Log into eservices - your member status will show in your records.

If you go into OPS quals, if you are patron, you won't have any.

Going to 000 doesn't automatically put you in patron, that's a two-step process.

ah I had the impression that I was automatically patron/reserve, so if I'm not automatically a patron member then I can still attend other squadron meetings and wear the uniform as an active member without an invitation the only downside is I can't get training approvals because I have no commander to approve anything since that's the whole purpose of 000

There is a difference between Reserve and Patron.  You can be a Patron Member in an active unit, and you can be a Patron member in the Reserve Unit.  Then you can also be an "active" member in a Reserve Unit.

The membership status has no direct bearing on a particular Unit of Assignment.

If you are wanting to be more active, ask to be transferred.  Just be upfront with your Commander about your level of participation.

My guess is that you''ve simply been transferred to 000. It's a bit of a process to be transferred to patron status and then back to active status. Ref: CAPR 39-2 Para 3-6.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 16, 2014, 04:53:23 PM
There is a difference between Reserve and Patron.  You can be a Patron Member in an active unit, and you can be a Patron member in the Reserve Unit.  Then you can also be an "active" member in a Reserve Unit.

The membership status has no direct bearing on a particular Unit of Assignment.

If you are wanting to be more active, ask to be transferred.  Just be upfront with your Commander about your level of participation.

Yeah just waiting for commander reassignment; it won't happen until August 5th hopefully then they'll do the transfer.

And I believe that the Wing CC is the defacto 'commander' of Triple-0.

Quote from: capmaj on July 16, 2014, 05:44:02 PM
And I believe that, unless otherwise slotted, the Wing CC is the defacto commander of Triple-0.

He is not. 000 units have no commander by design.

While a Wing CC would ultimately be responsible for the disposition of a member in his respective 000 unit, he
is not assigned as its Commander.

000 is not considered a "reserve" unit like the old #35s were.  Member in 000 cannot participate in anything
which requires commander's approval, which at least technically = "anything" (the wrinkle comes
when you have members in flying status or with ES quals who could technically show up to a mission.)

The old #35 units were gaggles of members who could not work and play well with others, but were
still considered "active" - they had a full charter with a CC assigned.

Most wings these days immediately, or shortly thereafter, change the status of members in 000 to patron.

Quote from: mynetdude on July 16, 2014, 05:08:51 PMYeah just waiting for commander reassignment; it won't happen until August 5th hopefully then they'll do the transfer.

I don't understand - are you moving there voluntarily or because you're not getting along with the current CC.

Are you intending to continue as an active member?

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 07:17:51 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on July 16, 2014, 05:08:51 PMYeah just waiting for commander reassignment; it won't happen until August 5th hopefully then they'll do the transfer.

I don't understand - are you moving there voluntarily or because you're not getting along with the current CC.

Are you intending to continue as an active member?

I was put in 000 intentionally by the outgoing commander before he stepped down; and I plan to return to the squadron with approval of the new interim squadron commander.

OK - sounds like a "fun" time is being had by all.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 08:06:41 PM
OK - sounds like a "fun" time is being had by all.

meaning what? (I'm not taking offense, but its hard to know what you mean in "text" hence why I am asking).

Anytime a member is moved to 000 it's a failure on someone's part, usually CAP's.

This includes high-visibility situations like HWSRN.  Certainly there are people who
are not a good "fit" for CAP, in which case the failure is in letting them join at all,
but in many (most?) cases, lack of supervision, leadership, proper expectations, or related
problems are what allows people to get themselves into situations where they go from
well-intentioned, motivated members to "not", or their good intentions and motivation
are not in line with the commander's vision, which is again usually a CAP fault in
not communicating it properly, or for that matter even having a coherent one.

With that said, there's more then a few members who don't "get it" and need to
find another outlet for their free time.

When someone is pushed into 000 as a "going away present", that's an indication someone isn't playing nice.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 08:21:50 PM
Anytime a member is moved to 000 it's a failure on someone's part, usually CAP's.

This includes high-visibility situations like HWSRN.  Certainly there are people who
are not a good "fit" for CAP, in which case the failure is in letting them join at all,
but in many (most?) cases, lack of supervision, leadership, proper expectations, or related
problems are what allows people to get themselves into situations where they go from
well-intentioned, motivated members to "not".

When someone is pushed into 000 as a "going away present", that's an indication someone
isn't playing nice.

If you're saying I wasn't playing nice, that's understandable I mean after all its very possible I didn't play nice but I tried my best to.

what's HWSRN?  Also Elclipse there's no way to know whether when that person joins CAP if they will play nice a year from now or 3 years from now.  Many people agreed the recent outgoing commander is better suited as a follower not a leader because of how he interacts, communicates and "commands" his squadron.  A lot of people who have military experience who come to CAP seem to want to try to run it as if it were the real military (there's a few who do not of course).

Its obvious you can't push a commander who isn't playing nice into 000; we've had one other member leave the squadron before me who was never sent to 000 so we'll see... like I said if the new commander isn't willing to let me back in the squadron then I'll know that I can just walk away from CAP.

Quote from: mynetdude on July 16, 2014, 08:26:50 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 08:21:50 PM
Anytime a member is moved to 000 it's a failure on someone's part, usually CAP's.

This includes high-visibility situations like HWSRN.  Certainly there are people who
are not a good "fit" for CAP, in which case the failure is in letting them join at all,
but in many (most?) cases, lack of supervision, leadership, proper expectations, or related
problems are what allows people to get themselves into situations where they go from
well-intentioned, motivated members to "not".

When someone is pushed into 000 as a "going away present", that's an indication someone
isn't playing nice.

If you're saying I wasn't playing nice, that's understandable I mean after all its very possible I didn't play nice but I tried my best to.

I believe Eclipse was referring to your former squadron commander here. Assignment to a 000 shouldn't be used as disciplinary action and should definitely not done as a "going away present".

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 16, 2014, 08:49:09 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on July 16, 2014, 08:26:50 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 08:21:50 PM
Anytime a member is moved to 000 it's a failure on someone's part, usually CAP's.

This includes high-visibility situations like HWSRN.  Certainly there are people who
are not a good "fit" for CAP, in which case the failure is in letting them join at all,
but in many (most?) cases, lack of supervision, leadership, proper expectations, or related
problems are what allows people to get themselves into situations where they go from
well-intentioned, motivated members to "not".

When someone is pushed into 000 as a "going away present", that's an indication someone
isn't playing nice.

If you're saying I wasn't playing nice, that's understandable I mean after all its very possible I didn't play nice but I tried my best to.

I believe Eclipse was referring to your former squadron commander here. Assignment to a 000 shouldn't be used as disciplinary action and should definitely not done as a "going away present".

ah that make sense, just couldn't figure out which "side" Eclipse was talking about.

BTW... according to everybody else who have told me; they said because of my resignation (true I did write one) I was moved to 000 but the resignation was until the problem was resolved no one pointed out to me that by doing so I'd be moved to 000 as a matter of fact I know of several commanders who would have left me in the squadron despite whether I'd chose to stay or go.

If you resigned from CAP, a CAPF 2B needs to be completed to terminate your membership. If you "resigned" from the squadron (did not request a transfer to another unit), however, then your commander would have to place you in the 000 unit, as a member has to be assigned to a unit. The other alternative was to place you on Patron status and assign you to the National Patron unit.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 16, 2014, 09:15:54 PM
If you resigned from CAP, a CAPF 2B needs to be completed to terminate your membership. If you "resigned" from the squadron (did not request a transfer to another unit), however, then your commander would have to place you in the 000 unit, as a member has to be assigned to a unit. The other alternative was to place you on Patron status and assign you to the National Patron unit.

why does he "have" to? other people have resigned without a transfer request and remained in the squadron; we also have inactive members who have not "resigned" as a matter of fact we have a member who has been on our roster for some 20 years and never attending a single meeting as an active member.

Granted I know that's what is supposed to be done, the commander should have communicated the process JMO.

If you resigned from a staff position and not from the squadron, then your commander could leave you in the unit. But if you resigned from the unit, then you're telling your commander that you either can't remain in the unit or don't wish to continue being a part of that squadron. That's not the same as just not coming to meetings anymore. Furthermore, there's really no resigning a squadron without going to another unit (in this case the 000 inactive unit). You just can't have it both ways.

Finally, context is everything. It doesn't seem that you have a good grasp of CAP membership process and without knowing the context of your resignation, we can't really determine whether your commander's actions were appropriate and warranted.

Storm has it right.

Some of the issue here is terminology, terms used commonly in an interchangeable fashion, but that don't mean the same thing.
With the caveat that all members serve at the pleasure of their respective commander:

There is no requirement that a member hold any staff position within or outside a give unit.  Members can certainly just be "members",
which would generally mean "active with cadet", "being active aircrew, ground, or ICS staff", etc.  Plenty of members do plenty
of hard work without holding any staff position of record.  With that said, if you expect to progress in most PD tracks, you need to
be assigned in order to fulfill the pamphlet requirements.

Relief of duty (without prejudice) from a given staff assignment or command position, holds no mandate that the
member be assigned to 000.  That's actually a ridiculous assertion, and whoever made it is either being disingenuous
or is woefully misinformed.  If you asked to be relieved of duty, there's no reason you can't step down and stay in the unit indefinitely.

If your letter actually "resigned" from CAP, then as mentioned, that requires a personnel action by the CC, but does not
trigger any automatic transfer to 000 or anywhere else.  In fact, doing so could be construed as an attempt to circumvent
the appeals process for a 2B, which always starts at the next highest level from the termination. (Though in the case of a voluntary termination action,
the assumption would be there would be no appeals.)  There's no such thing as a "temporary" resignation.  You're either in or out.

Bottom line, this sounds like a personality clash where the CC is playing games to make you go away.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 09:53:25 PM
If your letter actually "resigned" from CAP, then as mentioned, that requires a personnel action by the CC, but does not
trigger any automatic transfer to 000 or anywhere else.  In fact, doing so could be construed as an attempt to circumvent
the appeals process for a 2B, which always starts at the next highest level from the termination. (Though in the case of a voluntary termination action,
the assumption would be there would be no appeals.)  There's no such thing as a "temporary" resignation.  You're either in or out.

Bottom line, this sounds like a personality clash where the CC is playing games to make you go away.

There is no appeal for a voluntary 2b.   Fill out the form/letter, turn in your CAP proprty and your CAP ID card and you are out.

If you change your mind later you have to rejoin as a returning member, which in theory would include a new membership board.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 16, 2014, 09:51:42 PM
If you resigned from a staff position and not from the squadron, then your commander could leave you in the unit. But if you resigned from the unit, then you're telling your commander that you either can't remain in the unit or don't wish to continue being a part of that squadron. That's not the same as just not coming to meetings anymore. Furthermore, there's really no resigning a squadron without going to another unit (in this case the 000 inactive unit). You just can't have it both ways.

Finally, context is everything. It doesn't seem that you have a good grasp of CAP membership process and without knowing the context of your resignation, we can't really determine whether your commander's actions were appropriate and warranted.

After reading your explanation; that actually makes sense and you're right because I did word it that I resign from the squadron.  Good point, I could have worded it that I resign from my duty positions though that would have kept me in the squadron (supposedly?)

Quote from: mynetdude on July 16, 2014, 10:42:11 PM
After reading your explanation; that actually makes sense and you're right because I did word it that I resign from the squadron.  Good point, I could have worded it that I resign from my duty positions though that would have kept me in the squadron (supposedly?)

In theory, though again it sounds like there was more then just a "I'm gonna take a break from this for a while...".

Unless there is a real conflict, it's pretty unusual for a CC to assume a relief from duty is also a request for transfer.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 10:51:21 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on July 16, 2014, 10:42:11 PM
After reading your explanation; that actually makes sense and you're right because I did word it that I resign from the squadron.  Good point, I could have worded it that I resign from my duty positions though that would have kept me in the squadron (supposedly?)

In theory, though again it sounds like there was more then just a "I'm gonna take a break from this for a while...".

Unless there is a real conflict, it's pretty unusual for a CC to assume a relief from duty is also a request for transfer.

Let me be clear; I'm not trying to hide anything, I am trying to be truthful without divulging enough information and if I was causing trouble do you think I'd come here? (ok maybe I would, I'd spin things a bit).

So, I did word it that I intended to resign from the squadron (when my actual intent was to actually take a break but not transfer). I didn't word it that I wanted to be relieved of all my duties (he pretty much did all that for me without telling me before I said I was going to resign and then I promoted the resignation email to the CC).

I'm not implying you're hiding anything, I'm saying that in the normal course, a member in otherwise good
standing, stepping down from a given staff job, is not wholesale wiped off the board and pushed to 000.

So it's either a huge miscommunication all the way around, or somebody wasn't getting along.

Now, with that said, if I had a marginally active member who came to me out of the blue and said "I resign from the unit."
I might just be inclined to accept the situation and move on, especially if I was otherwise cleaning house, but
if someone I depended on came up to me and said "I resign from the unit." There'd be a "whhha?" attached to the response.

It doesn't matter, the results are the same.  If you intend to come back to the squadron, a note to the
wing CC or wing Personnel Officer in this regard, requesting that you >not< be made a patron member in the interim,
might not be a bad idea.  Assuming he's not cognizant of the situation, most wings place members into Patron
within a month or so to keep them off of various reports for currency.

Right now, coming out of 000 is 2 clicks, coming out from patron is a few more.  No point in going there for nothing.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 11:08:29 PM
I'm not implying you're hiding anything, I'm saying that in the normal course, a member in otherwise good
standing, stepping down from a given staff job, is not wholesale wiped off the board and pushed to 000.

So it's either a huge miscommunication all the way around, or somebody wasn't getting along.

Now, with that said, if I had a marginally active member who came to me out of the blue and said "I resign from the unit."
I might just be inclined to accept the situation and move on, especially if I was otherwise cleaning house, but
if someone I depended on came up to me and said "I resign from the unit." There'd be a "whhha?" attached to the response.

It doesn't matter, the results are the same.  If you intend to come back to the squadron, a note to the
wing CC or wing Personnel Officer in this regard, requesting that you >not< be made a patron member in the interim,
might not be a bad idea.  Assuming he's not cognizant of the situation, most wings place members into Patron
within a month or so to keep them off of various reports for currency.

Right now, coming out of 000 is 2 clicks, coming out from patron is a few more.  No point in going there for nothing.

Don't worry I just wanted to be clear I wasn't hiding anything, not saying you were implying anything; anything's possible on either side can't disagree with that.

I agree miscommunication is the #1 chief problem in this situation.  And as you pointed out two possible scenarios; I figured the latter would've happened but that was my mistake I should have seen that coming as well.

As for noting my intentions to the wing CC/personnel/whatever I did make my intentions aware through another squadron CC who was asked by the wing CC to ask me (because the wing CC won't talk to me directly to prevent his judgement being unbiased or whatever/have you). 

I should know in a few days whether I'll even get to transfer back or not, if not then its a done deal anyway and I could care less.

Mynet-

You asked about the meaning of HWSRN.

A few years ago, about ten or so we had a National Commander who implemented a few things that members did not like. He did so because he was the National Commander and knew better. Better than the Air Force. Better than CAP-USAF! He also I believe gave himself a raise as a three-star general without USAF authorization. And someone uncovered irregularities in testing administration...

After all that, no one here, or almost no one wants to hear his name. So they refer to his reign, yes reign as he thought he was king and could do no wrong as some kings used to say, members refer to him as He Who Shall Remain Nameless, as an obvious play-in-words reference to the Harry Potter series and Lord Valdemoort.

This is what I remember, but I could be wrong, I have been wrong in many many things. Eclipse, Nin, Lord and others who have been members for a while please add or correct my stuff...

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on July 17, 2014, 01:49:12 AMHe also I believe gave himself a raise as a three-star general without USAF authorization.

No...sorry that is one thing he did not do. (another National Commander promoted himself to two stars...but that was 20 years ago (give or take).

Quote[/b]And someone uncovered irregularities in testing administration...

His co-conspirator outed the National Commander, after the National Commander refused to quash a 2b proceeding.

But, yes He Who Shall Not Be Named became a joke when we were talking about MGen Pineda.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 17, 2014, 02:37:07 AM

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on July 17, 2014, 01:49:12 AMHe also I believe gave himself a raise as a three-star general without USAF authorization.

No...sorry that is one thing he did not do. (another National Commander promoted himself to two stars...but that was 20 years ago (give or take).

Quote[/b]And someone uncovered irregularities in testing administration...

His co-conspirator outed the National Commander, after the National Commander refused to quash a 2b proceeding.

But, yes He Who Shall Not Be Named became a joke when we were talking about THEN MGen Pineda.

Fixed.
That former member holds the "grade" of SMWOG.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 17, 2014, 02:44:43 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 17, 2014, 02:37:07 AM

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on July 17, 2014, 01:49:12 AMHe also I believe gave himself a raise as a three-star general without USAF authorization.

No...sorry that is one thing he did not do. (another National Commander promoted himself to two stars...but that was 20 years ago (give or take).

Quote[/b]And someone uncovered irregularities in testing administration...

His co-conspirator outed the National Commander, after the National Commander refused to quash a 2b proceeding.

But, yes He Who Shall Not Be Named became a joke when we were talking about THEN MGen Pineda.

Fixed.
That former member holds the "grade" of SMWOG.

I'm not really sure if the actually demoted him....I'm not even sure if they 2b'ed him.     I do know that the BoG spoke and he was removed from command and was no longer a member of CAP.

How that happened....i.e. if the actually did the paper work, if he resigned or they just "made" it happen in EServices......I don't know for sure.

Before he disappeared from eServices, his rank was SM.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 17, 2014, 04:01:27 AM
Before he disappeared from eServices, his rank was SM.

Not doubting you Dave....but what is your source for that information? 

I saw it, too. In fact.. there was a little more inside joke for a bit.. I wonder if I still have the screen shot ;-)

Quote from: lordmonar on July 17, 2014, 04:06:46 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on July 17, 2014, 04:01:27 AM
Before he disappeared from eServices, his rank was SM.

Not doubting you Dave....but what is your source for that information?

I looked him up one day, not too long after he got canned as CC, and he was listed as SM. I don't recall making a screen grab. His CAWG buddy also showed up as SM around the same time.

Cool.  :)

Quote from: SarDragon on July 17, 2014, 05:33:01 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 17, 2014, 04:06:46 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on July 17, 2014, 04:01:27 AM
Before he disappeared from eServices, his rank was SM.

Not doubting you Dave....but what is your source for that information?

I looked him up one day, not too long after he got canned as CC, and he was listed as SM. I don't recall making a screen grab. His CAWG buddy also showed up as SM around the same time.

LOL you guys have so many acronyms that have nothing to do with CAP but the person in CAP itself who shall remain nameless; yes I know who you're talking about that was a very interesting time.

wasn't his CAWG buddy the one who called him on the irregularities?

Anyway... I just needed to know whether 000 was patron automatic, I think it was mentioned but maybe it wasn't clear in my recent past thread but I do intend to see if the next commander will let me back in; of course I could go to another squadron which I am not interested in.  So we'll see, and thanks for your time answering my question it was only fair I answer truthfully otherwise why waste your time?

And good info here nonetheless thanks again guys :)

CAPR 39-2 para 1-11.  Commanders may initiate transfers for those members under their command to other units under their command. In the event a member objects to such transfer, the request will be forwarded to the commander of the next higher echelon for final decision.

Quote from: mynetdude on July 17, 2014, 05:58:05 AM
wasn't his CAWG buddy the one who called him on the irregularities?

No, his fink was a Florida buddy, IIRC.

Interesting. I keep learning more and more. . >:D

Quote from: Lord of the North on July 17, 2014, 06:41:55 AM
CAPR 39-2 para 1-11.  Commanders may initiate transfers for those members under their command to other units under their command. In the event a member objects to such transfer, the request will be forwarded to the commander of the next higher echelon for final decision.

yes but generally 000 isn't under the purview of the squadron CC; but you are right I could have objected to the transfer (although I did question the transfer, again it was the "wording" of my resignation that caused a transfer to happen... oh wells big oops I'll get transferred back hopefully.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 16, 2014, 08:49:09 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on July 16, 2014, 08:26:50 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 16, 2014, 08:21:50 PM
Anytime a member is moved to 000 it's a failure on someone's part, usually CAP's.

This includes high-visibility situations like HWSRN.  Certainly there are people who
are not a good "fit" for CAP, in which case the failure is in letting them join at all,
but in many (most?) cases, lack of supervision, leadership, proper expectations, or related
problems are what allows people to get themselves into situations where they go from
well-intentioned, motivated members to "not".

When someone is pushed into 000 as a "going away present", that's an indication someone
isn't playing nice.

If you're saying I wasn't playing nice, that's understandable I mean after all its very possible I didn't play nice but I tried my best to.

I believe Eclipse was referring to your former squadron commander here. Assignment to a 000 shouldn't be used as disciplinary action and should definitely not done as a "going away present".

Ok so I'm rehashing this a bit; its been awhile, we let the dust settle but I have more questions and this comes to mind right now:

You said that 000 shouldn't be used as a disciplinary action, I met with the new commander tonight and he says basically i am suspended...  I'm at a loss and confused (and he is not willing to "unsuspend" me until he has all the information that would be in the best interest of CAP.  But, we also agreed that those would-be are not calling it a "suspension" but in the personnel regulations pertaining to suspension he believes that is my current status.

So I told him I'd like to know how am I suspended if I wasn't told I was suspended, and he clearly pointed to the fact that I'm in 000 would indicate being suspended; that's not the impression I got from this thread nor the regulations. I'm pretty sure AFAIK that if you're suspended you don't have access to eServices (which I do).

000 does not equal suspended.

Log into eservices and see what your membership says.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 11, 2014, 03:17:22 AM
000 does not equal suspended.

Log into me services and see what your membership says.

Can you cite where it says in the regs that 000 isn't suspended? Cuz I can't find it in the regs, but maybe I am suspended with a 2B I don't know anything about; but eServices has a red banner at the top telling me to renew my membership (since it expires Oct 31st).

Look, to sum it up I didn't get along with the previous commander, I couldn't; because he was badgering, belittling and quite frankly discriminating but I couldn't prove the discrimination.

I need some hard evidence to take back to the new commander that I am NOT suspended; everybody (the squadron CC, and wing and the previous commander) seem to think I am suspended.  Like I said in my recent above post, how can you call it something other than a suspension when I'm suspended (if that were the case?)

The Commander has available to them your membership status, active, retired, patron or suspended.
It should be on the Commander's Dashboard.  This is something that you as a regular member do not have access to.

Quote from: PHall on September 11, 2014, 03:35:57 AM
The Commander has available to them your membership status, active, retired, patron or suspended.
It should be on the Commander's Dashboard.  This is something that you as a regular member do not have access to.

I answered my own question, sorry for wasting your time :(

Ok I read this at CAP knowledgebase:

(3) A copy of the CAPF 2a will be retained in the unit file and a copy will be forwarded to NHQ CAP/DP for processing. Members in suspended status will be removed from the active membership rolls and will not be authorized access to eServices. (which is what I said, I still have access to eServices).

I now have what I need, thanks :)

So back to the one question I have:

Since I am not suspended (I have access to eServices) and I am still a full fledged CAP member (not a patron, because Patron members don't have access to ops quals which I have access to still). Do I need permission to go to squadron meetings and participate in activities that do not require CC approval? (since I am at 000, I can't get approvals to go to encampment, or conferences, etc).

Is there any regulation concerning CAP members attending squadron meetings as a guest as far as what they can/can't do (like help out, etc); after all I AM a full fledged member, I can attend any squadron, participate in any SAREX (I just can't get CC approval for training).

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:18:21 AM
So back to the one question I have:

Since I am not suspended (I have access to eServices) and I am still a full fledged CAP member (not a patron, because Patron members don't have access to ops quals which I have access to still). Do I need permission to go to squadron meetings and participate in activities that do not require CC approval? (since I am at 000, I can't get approvals to go to encampment, or conferences, etc).

Is there any regulation concerning CAP members attending squadron meetings as a guest as far as what they can/can't do (like help out, etc); after all I AM a full fledged member, I can attend any squadron, participate in any SAREX (I just can't get CC approval for training).

I had access to e-services when I was suspended a couple of years ago. So I would not rely on that as an indicator.

Quote from: PHall on September 11, 2014, 04:30:37 AM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:18:21 AM
So back to the one question I have:

Since I am not suspended (I have access to eServices) and I am still a full fledged CAP member (not a patron, because Patron members don't have access to ops quals which I have access to still). Do I need permission to go to squadron meetings and participate in activities that do not require CC approval? (since I am at 000, I can't get approvals to go to encampment, or conferences, etc).

Is there any regulation concerning CAP members attending squadron meetings as a guest as far as what they can/can't do (like help out, etc); after all I AM a full fledged member, I can attend any squadron, participate in any SAREX (I just can't get CC approval for training).

I had access to e-services when I was suspended a couple of years ago. So I would not rely on that as an indicator.

How did you know you were suspended? Were you transferred to 000 when you got suspended? (or was the transfer to 000 part of your suspension process in 2 steps?) How long were you suspended for? (suspensions more than 60 days requires approval of the next higher CC up to 180 days MAXIMUM).

The regs doesn't even say a transfer is required to even be suspended (you can be suspended while in your unit, a transfer is not necessary).

Edit correction: It hasn't been fully 60 days yet (in 7 more days it will be assuming I was suspended on the 17th of June when I was transferred to 000); but that brings me to another question: I wrote this thread on the 16th of June how could I have known about it beforehand? ;) Interesting!

Also, FYI there is no requirement to notify said member of suspension UNLESS the suspension is for a pending membership termination action (a 2B) THEN you get notified that you're suspended otherwise as far as I can see in the regs; a mere suspension requires no notification (HOWEVER what have you, how the hell do you know you're suspended if you're not told otherwise? Because you surely don't want to show up in uniform to a meeting while suspended as that's a big no no).

Oh yeah, did NHQ know about your suspension when you were suspended? The regulations require NHQ to be notified of this personnel action, if they weren't then you were incorrectly suspended no matter the intent AND was your LSCode anything other than "A" as Eclipse has pointed out?

I'm finding that there are really really big holes in this (as far as my "suspension" goes).

000 is not, in any way, directly connected to being suspended.

If you are in a 000 unit, you aren't in your old unit anymore, and won't be again unless the commander
manually and purposely transfers you back, which is in no way required.

You are no longer that CC's concern.

You don't actually have to be put in suspended status. In 000 there is very little you can do as 000
units have no CC.  While many wings put people in Patron status when moved to 000, it's not required
and some don't bother.

Suspension is a disciplinary status and requires specific action to implement and follow on as per the regs.
Transfer to 000 requires none of that, provides little recourse, and has little appeal if a Unit CC won't accept
the respective member.

Whatever is going on there, it sounds like they are done with you, right or wrong. 

Log into eServices and look at your member status, if it is anything but "A" you've got an issue.

If you can't get into eServices, you might not even be a member any more.

Beyond that, I would suggest contacting someone at you wing or higher, maybe even NHQ to at least
get straight answers and end this dance.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:18:21 AM
So back to the one question I have:

Since I am not suspended (I have access to eServices) and I am still a full fledged CAP member (not a patron, because Patron members don't have access to ops quals which I have access to still). Do I need permission to go to squadron meetings and participate in activities that do not require CC approval? (since I am at 000, I can't get approvals to go to encampment, or conferences, etc).

Is there any regulation concerning CAP members attending squadron meetings as a guest as far as what they can/can't do (like help out, etc); after all I AM a full fledged member, I can attend any squadron, participate in any SAREX (I just can't get CC approval for training).

You have to have a CC authorization for any CAP participation. You can't just show up to a unit without the CCs OK.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 11, 2014, 05:10:12 AM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:18:21 AM
So back to the one question I have:

Since I am not suspended (I have access to eServices) and I am still a full fledged CAP member (not a patron, because Patron members don't have access to ops quals which I have access to still). Do I need permission to go to squadron meetings and participate in activities that do not require CC approval? (since I am at 000, I can't get approvals to go to encampment, or conferences, etc).

Is there any regulation concerning CAP members attending squadron meetings as a guest as far as what they can/can't do (like help out, etc); after all I AM a full fledged member, I can attend any squadron, participate in any SAREX (I just can't get CC approval for training).

You have to have a CC authorization for any CAP participation. You can't just show up to a unit without the CCs OK.

Where in the regs does it say that? Howcome I can go to another squadron meeting from another unit that isn't 000 and still not need permission to participate?

And WHICH CC are you talking about? The squadron's? the wing?

Quote from: Eclipse on September 11, 2014, 05:08:52 AM
Log into eServices and look at your member status, if it is anything but "A" you've got an issue.

If you can't get into eServices, you might not even be a member any more.

Beyond that, I would suggest contacting someone at you wing or higher, maybe even NHQ to at least
get straight answers and end this dance.

LSCode: A <---- is that what you're referring to?

I CAN get into eServices, there's no doubt about that.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 05:12:54 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on September 11, 2014, 05:10:12 AM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:18:21 AM
So back to the one question I have:

Since I am not suspended (I have access to eServices) and I am still a full fledged CAP member (not a patron, because Patron members don't have access to ops quals which I have access to still). Do I need permission to go to squadron meetings and participate in activities that do not require CC approval? (since I am at 000, I can't get approvals to go to encampment, or conferences, etc).

Is there any regulation concerning CAP members attending squadron meetings as a guest as far as what they can/can't do (like help out, etc); after all I AM a full fledged member, I can attend any squadron, participate in any SAREX (I just can't get CC approval for training).

You have to have a CC authorization for any CAP participation. You can't just show up to a unit without the CCs OK.

Where in the regs does it say that? Howcome I can go to another squadron meeting from another unit that isn't 000 and still not need permission to participate?

And WHICH CC are you talking about? The squadron's? the wing?

Commander's authorization, either tacit or explicit is required for >all< CAP activities from the most mundane to the most exciting.
It is a core principle of the organization.  Commanders are personally responsible for a member's experience and conduct,
and therefore must monitor and approve anything a member does.

During the normal course, this is not an issue.  Rarely does one commander care if a member visits another commander's
unit or activity, that is tacit approval.  However, members do not have the right to wander around other units or
activities if they are not welcome.

If you go to a SAREx, you are supposed to get approval of your unit CC.  If a higher HQ, such as the Group or Wing (in the chain)
approves your participation, then so be it, otherwise it's your unit CC's call as to whether you can attend.  ES it tricky because
the quals are national and most missions are run at a wing level or higher, but everything else is at the pleasure of
both your CC and the CC or PIC of the activity.  A lot of members forget, for example, that they need their CC's
approval to staff an encampment. Why?  Because it is the CC's duty and responsibility to insure that member belongs there to begin with.
99% of the time this is a non-issue, but it does come up on occasion that a unit CC does not want Member X going to Activity Y,
and that is well within w respective CC's authority.

Now, in your case, being in 000, you can't just show up unbidden to activities and unit meetings without getting the
approval of at least the local CC or PIC, and if they indicate you are not welcome, you have to leave.

If you're going back to your old unit for the purpose of discussing your status, and the current CC is interested in the
conversation, great, however you can't just participate regularly as if you were a member of that unit if the CC doesn't want you there.

Further, in 000, you have no one to approve your activities as a member.  As mentioned before, technically the Wing CC is
responsible for all members assigned to any charter in his wing, but he is >not< the CC of 000, so it's anyone's call as to whether he
can, or should be approving the participation of a member in "A" status who can't find a home unit, and barring some extenuating circumstances,
few are interested in the conversation. Also as mentioned, most wings these days are putting members into 000 within a month or two
to simply dissuade any notion that 000 is a reserve unit or a long-term home.

Bottom line:
If you are LSCode A, then you are still an active member, and not in any official disciplinary or "suspension" status, however if you
have been transferred to 000, then you are no longer a member of any active charter in the wing, and there is little
you can participate in.  Your records should have been moved to the Admin Officer for wing, and there is no requirement that your old
CC entertain the idea of your transferring back.

So absent either higher HQ intervention, or an IG complaint, you're benched.

I would strongly suggest you stop dancing with local people, contact the Wing IG and settle this once and for all, whatever
the case may be.

So absent either higher HQ intervention, or an IG complaint, you're benched.

I wold strongly suggest you stop dancing with local people, contact the Wing IG and settle this once and for all, whatever
the case may be.


Ok I'd love to do that, wing IG won't do/say anything unless I can prove regulations have been violated they want me to fill out a CAPF 30 for them to explicitly do something about it .  But as far as everyone is concerned everybody has followed the regulations and I'm unfortunately inclined to agree (I'm not going to disagree when they're right!) but if I can't show them what regs they have broken then they'll just discard my CAPF 30 to them.

Ok so your explanation about me being unwanted at the CAP unit, fair enough I understand now.  And sadly I agree I'm wasting so much energy on an organization I love despite this "spit in your face politics".

Oh, Eclipse, the new CC has only been in CAP for almost 2 years less than I, but has plenty of experience in leading and following regulations... I'm surprised he mentioned I was suspended... I don't know how they got to that :D but I'm hoping that my ability to prove that whoever told him that I was suspended is wrong (no I'm not saying the new CC is wrong but he better get it right too).

I'm just hoping that the new CC is going to see that I wasn't the one causing the problems but I sure as hell didn't solve any either and I want back in now that the problem disappeared on its own. I have a meeting with him next week and if he doesn't want to budge then I have no regrets letting my membership lapse and rejoining in another state.

If you are suspended - you can't even get into eServices. You get an "invalid member" error, "and unable to renew online at this time", "please call ... for assistance". Though you could be considered suspended at the unit level, and it was not done the typical, complete way. So someone transferred you to the 000 unit instead. But that 000 in and of itself does not mean suspension.

Quote from: a2capt on September 11, 2014, 06:55:20 AM
If you are suspended - you can't even get into eServices. You get an "invalid member" error, "and unable to renew online at this time", "please call ... for assistance". Though you could be considered suspended at the unit level, and it was not done the typical, complete way. So someone transferred you to the 000 unit instead. But that 000 in and of itself does not mean suspension.

Is it even allowed to "suspend" a member without doing a personnel action? According to the regulations a suspension at the unit level still requires a form 2A to be sent to NHQ/DP, now... I have had my promotion withheld for 30 days but no paperwork was actually done on it.

If you're gonna suspend a member for a week... big whup... that's only one meeting and maybe one activity during that week and I would not care if a 2A was actually submitted; suspend them for 30 days, now we're talking about a whole lot of action they are missing out on and I'd want to see actual paperwork being pushed to NHQ if it were indeed an actual suspension.

It also confuses me that some people seem to think that they can still be suspended and have access to eServices (just ask PHall, that's why I asked him a zillion questions about his suspension); I'm getting mighty frustrated and pissed off at this whole circus, its not your guys' fault but this is all childish games why can't anybody at CAP grow up? (again, not referring to you guys here on the forums).

Well.. I might as well BE suspended since I can't go to any squadron without permission!

A member can be suspended by any commander.

Most will do it properly, completely, by filling out the 2A and pushing it up the chain.

Some may do it by just saying it, and requesting your membership card.

That would be improper, and you can start your F30 with that, or anything in between.

In the days before eServices was as much as it was, a commander would suspend, and put a 2A on file. Done. Unit or Group can suspend for a maximum of 60 days only. Anything more and the Wing or higher has to get involved.

60 days. Anything more and you're either owed an explanation as to why, and that would mean that Wing is involved, or an un-encumbered membership. Sounds like you have neither. Just a he-says-she-says scenario. Because action was taken in a half-ar$ed manner. Certainly not IAW CAPR 35-1.

There's your issue right there. It certainly sounds like it's been more than 60 days. I'm going out on a limb on the 2A having to require -why- you are suspended. I don't think it needs to. But documentation goes a long way in holding up a story.

Quote from: a2capt on September 11, 2014, 08:22:22 AM
A member can be suspended by any commander.

Most will do it properly, completely, by filling out the 2A and pushing it up the chain.

Some may do it by just saying it, and requesting your membership card.

That would be improper, and you can start your F30 with that, or anything in between.

In the days before eServices was as much as it was, a commander would suspend, and put a 2A on file. Done. Unit or Group can suspend for a maximum of 60 days only. Anything more and the Wing or higher has to get involved.

60 days. Anything more and you're either owed an explanation as to why, and that would mean that Wing is involved, or an un-encumbered membership. Sounds like you have neither. Just a he-says-she-says scenario. Because action was taken in a half-ar$ed manner. Certainly not IAW CAPR 35-1.

There's your issue right there. It certainly sounds like it's been more than 60 days. I'm going out on a limb on the 2A having to require -why- you are suspended. I don't think it needs to. But documentation goes a long way in holding up a story.

No it hasn't been over 60 days quite (one more week; but then again, I don't know when the suspension actually took place and I have to assume it took place as soon as I transferred to 000 unintentionally regardless of how I actualyl worded it in my email to the CC).   There is no requirement to notify the member of his/her suspension even if wing/region gets involved for suspensions more than 60 days; there is only a requirement to notify the member of suspension is the suspension is part of the membership termination process THEN they are required to notify that member IAW 35-1.

If they continue to say that I am suspended, I may very well move up to the next echelon as far as IG is concerned but that isn't going to help me get back into the old unit LOL; this is totally messed up.

What they "say" is irrelevent for two reasons.

You indicate you are in LSC "A", which means you are an active member.

You say you are in 000, which means you are no longer in that unit or any other.

A commander cannot simply say,  "I suspend with thee, I suspend with thee, I suspend with thee, and then throw dog poop on your shoes."

There is a process to membership status for a reason, because it then invokes rights and/or responsibilities on both sides of
the table.

Do Unit CCs "unofficially suspend" members?  Probably.  But that "unofficial suspension" has zero weight of authority or
impact on the member's membership status. It's the kind of thing that Unit CCs who are conflict averse, or simply don't want to
be bothered, do to "fix" a situation and it generally just makes things worse.

In this case, there probably isn't even an LOR in your file, or any documentation of the "issues" you had.  The last CC simply had
enough of you, right or wrong, and dis-invited you to his party while he still had the authority.

You indicate that you have no evidence to prove the violation of any regulations or discrimination - we point out
here all the time that being a bad leader doesn't violate the regs, nor do simple personality or "strategic direction" conflicts
between otherwise valued members who just don't agree. In those cases the CC nearly always wins, because he's the CC,
and in the rare case a decision like that is overridden, how fulfilling do you think the volunteer experience of the guy who is
"forced back into the unit" will be?

If the new CC is telling you he's not interested in your participation "until we figure this out", he's likely just being nice,
and most surely has already discussed this with the former CC and/or members of the staff of the unit.

Having not been provided the base details of the reason you were voted off the island, there's no way to comment
on that aspect, however if you want some closure, not to mention educating people in your wing about procedures,
then the Wing IG is probably your next phone call.  If you're someone with a "reputation" in your wing, don't be
surprised if you get a less then warm reception, and if you have nothing but "he-said / she-said" allegations
with no evidence of an actionable complaint, you probably won't get very far. They should, at a minimum, get the new
Unit CC to explain and knock off the "suspended" talk.

From there, or barring the above, your best recourse is to probably just look for another unit or echelon to participate,
or if that's not an option, another outlet for your volunteer time.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:13:52 PM

Quote from: a2capt on September 11, 2014, 08:22:22 AM
A member can be suspended by any commander.

Most will do it properly, completely, by filling out the 2A and pushing it up the chain.

Some may do it by just saying it, and requesting your membership card.

That would be improper, and you can start your F30 with that, or anything in between.

In the days before eServices was as much as it was, a commander would suspend, and put a 2A on file. Done. Unit or Group can suspend for a maximum of 60 days only. Anything more and the Wing or higher has to get involved.

60 days. Anything more and you're either owed an explanation as to why, and that would mean that Wing is involved, or an un-encumbered membership. Sounds like you have neither. Just a he-says-she-says scenario. Because action was taken in a half-ar$ed manner. Certainly not IAW CAPR 35-1.

There's your issue right there. It certainly sounds like it's been more than 60 days. I'm going out on a limb on the 2A having to require -why- you are suspended. I don't think it needs to. But documentation goes a long way in holding up a story.

No it hasn't been over 60 days quite (one more week; but then again, I don't know when the suspension actually took place and I have to assume it took place as soon as I transferred to 000 unintentionally regardless of how I actualyl worded it in my email to the CC).   There is no requirement to notify the member of his/her suspension even if wing/region gets involved for suspensions more than 60 days; there is only a requirement to notify the member of suspension is the suspension is part of the membership termination process THEN they are required to notify that member IAW 35-1.

If they continue to say that I am suspended, I may very well move up to the next echelon as far as IG is concerned but that isn't going to help me get back into the old unit LOL; this is totally messed up.

Ummm...a suspension of >60 days gives you the right to appeal, up to and including the MARP.  I think you would have very good "lack of due process" grounds for overturning a suspension that you were never informed of.

QuoteCAPR 35-8:  Membership Action Review Panel
5. JURISDICTION AND DECISIONS.
a. The MARP has jurisdiction over appeals from unit commanders' final adverse membership actions, which concern
...
(3) Suspension of membership in excess of 60 days due to regulatory infractions or
misconduct not giving rise to a criminal investigation or criminal charges or proceedings; or

What do you mean not required to inform of a suspension? Then how the heck are you to even comply with it? Show up and be informed of  a violation of an order/change you had no idea about?

That's ludicrous.

Quote from: JeffDG on September 11, 2014, 04:46:49 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:13:52 PM

Quote from: a2capt on September 11, 2014, 08:22:22 AM
A member can be suspended by any commander.

Most will do it properly, completely, by filling out the 2A and pushing it up the chain.

Some may do it by just saying it, and requesting your membership card.

That would be improper, and you can start your F30 with that, or anything in between.

In the days before eServices was as much as it was, a commander would suspend, and put a 2A on file. Done. Unit or Group can suspend for a maximum of 60 days only. Anything more and the Wing or higher has to get involved.

60 days. Anything more and you're either owed an explanation as to why, and that would mean that Wing is involved, or an un-encumbered membership. Sounds like you have neither. Just a he-says-she-says scenario. Because action was taken in a half-ar$ed manner. Certainly not IAW CAPR 35-1.

There's your issue right there. It certainly sounds like it's been more than 60 days. I'm going out on a limb on the 2A having to require -why- you are suspended. I don't think it needs to. But documentation goes a long way in holding up a story.

No it hasn't been over 60 days quite (one more week; but then again, I don't know when the suspension actually took place and I have to assume it took place as soon as I transferred to 000 unintentionally regardless of how I actualyl worded it in my email to the CC).   There is no requirement to notify the member of his/her suspension even if wing/region gets involved for suspensions more than 60 days; there is only a requirement to notify the member of suspension is the suspension is part of the membership termination process THEN they are required to notify that member IAW 35-1.

If they continue to say that I am suspended, I may very well move up to the next echelon as far as IG is concerned but that isn't going to help me get back into the old unit LOL; this is totally messed up.

Ummm...a suspension of >60 days gives you the right to appeal, up to and including the MARP.  I think you would have very good "lack of due process" grounds for overturning a suspension that you were never informed of.

QuoteCAPR 35-8:  Membership Action Review Panel
5. JURISDICTION AND DECISIONS.
a. The MARP has jurisdiction over appeals from unit commanders' final adverse membership actions, which concern
...
(3) Suspension of membership in excess of 60 days due to regulatory infractions or
misconduct not giving rise to a criminal investigation or criminal charges or proceedings; or

Yes for more than 60 days; but if I'm realistically suspended it wouldn't be for more than 60 days; but I have a hunch I'm not even suspended they're just trying to throw me off the bus!

Quote from: a2capt on September 11, 2014, 04:50:16 PM
What do you mean not required to inform of a suspension? Then how the heck are you to even comply with it? Show up and be informed of  a violation of an order/change you had no idea about?

That's ludicrous.

I agree; but that's how I understand the regulations; unless I'm not reading it correctly or totally misunderstood the regulation context.

It only seems to state that notification of suspension is only required when the suspension is for membership termination otherwise they don't have to say anything, but you're right its silly if they didn't.

You're already off the bus, and you watched it drive away two months ago.

At this point, you can wait for the next one, or just start walking, but the one you were on doesn't
come back around that router for 3-4 years.

Also, just FYI and another reminder to others, you are not anonymous, so there you go...

Eclipse in reply to your other post:

Bold & Italics my emphasis


What they "say" is irrelevent for two reasons.

You're right, but it seems to be relevant to them I think

You indicate you are in LSC "A", which means you are an active member.

You say you are in 000, which means you are no longer in that unit or any other.

A commander cannot simply say,  "I suspend with thee, I suspend with thee, I suspend with thee, and then throw dog poop on your shoes."

There is a process to membership status for a reason, because it then invokes rights and/or responsibilities on both sides of
the table.

I agree, I've already sent my rebuttal to the new CC, if he doesn't like it there's not much more I can do other than file an IG complaint but he's not the one who supposedly suspended me so again I can't file an IG complaint on a whim that someone SAYS that I am suspended; it'll never fly IAW with the regs.

Do Unit CCs "unofficially suspend" members?  Probably.  But that "unofficial suspension" has zero weight of authority or
impact on the member's membership status. It's the kind of thing that Unit CCs who are conflict averse, or simply don't want to
be bothered, do to "fix" a situation and it generally just makes things worse.

In this case, there probably isn't even an LOR in your file, or any documentation of the "issues" you had.  The last CC simply had
enough of you, right or wrong, and dis-invited you to his party while he still had the authority.

Let's be clear about something, I WROTE an email with INCORRECT terminology that's how I ended up being "de-invited" whether or not it was my intention or not, they don't seem to care and is irrelevant and I'm partially going to agree with that.  HOWEVER I wished someone would have said "hey, are you SURE you want to do this?" (if I had been CC I would have asked).

You indicate that you have no evidence to prove the violation of any regulations or discrimination - we point out
here all the time that being a bad leader doesn't violate the regs, nor do simple personality or "strategic direction" conflicts
between otherwise valued members who just don't agree. In those cases the CC nearly always wins, because he's the CC,
and in the rare case a decision like that is overridden, how fulfilling do you think the volunteer experience of the guy who is
"forced back into the unit" will be?

I am not being forced back in, I want back in; everyone there except the new CC really wants me back; as to whether or not the CC really wants me there, we'll see I'll know more next week but I'm not going to cater to everything he wants (the CC) because I'm not obligated to. And one other key point, I KNOW the former CC has discriminated the problem is there was no way to catch him in the act with more than one person present at the same time all of us heard him loud and clear what he said to us individually not as a group so we cannot corroborate what he said because none of us heard the individual conversations.

If the new CC is telling you he's not interested in your participation "until we figure this out", he's likely just being nice,
and most surely has already discussed this with the former CC and/or members of the staff of the unit.

You are correct, he has already talked to the former CC, and those up at wing, but I am not sure if he has talked to his current staff about it and I doubt he has just based on what he knows about the situation.

Having not been provided the base details of the reason you were voted off the island, there's no way to comment
on that aspect, however if you want some closure, not to mention educating people in your wing about procedures,
then the Wing IG is probably your next phone call.  If you're someone with a "reputation" in your wing, don't be
surprised if you get a less then warm reception, and if you have nothing but "he-said / she-said" allegations
with no evidence of an actionable complaint, you probably won't get very far. They should, at a minimum, get the new
Unit CC to explain and knock off the "suspended" talk.

I'd love to give more details, but I don't think you want to waste your time on this (and I wouldn't blame you) and as a matter of fact; I did state the details WHY I was removed; it was a simple sentence in my email "I temporarily resign from the squadron" is all the CC needed to invoke the transfer authority; now with that being said, someone here made a point that there is no "temporary" resignations, there is either Do or don't but I wanted the previous unit CC to know that I wasn't planning on leaving forever.

I did NOTHING wrong (at least I didn't violate any regulations that I know of) as you pointed out poor leadership, communication, personality clashes are not regulation binding.  But I do have to wonder what about "respect"? It is a core value, its not a regulation and so is integrity which comes to my next point: if there's a CAP member who lies on a regular basis there doesn't seem to be regulation that says "if caught lying that member shall disappear"! but you certainly can be LOR'd for it.

I'll also point out two other things; my promotion to Captain was held back for insubordination under the previous CC; I can hardly think of anytime I disobeyed orders (or instructions, the worst would be I misunderstood them and there is no LOR for that, I was never notified of this (I had to find out through the grapevine) but then again, there is nothing in the regulations that require a CC to notify me of why my promotion is being held back or why I've broken such regulations but it is in poor form. The other point I'll make is, that I wasn't the only member who had difficulty with this CC.

From there, or barring the above, your best recourse is to probably just look for another unit or echelon to participate,
or if that's not an option, another outlet for your volunteer time.

I am actively pursing other outlets; CAP has a unique experience you can't get elsewhere, I want to participate with people I've known for years that I work WELL with; starting over is the least of my desires.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:13:52 PM
There is no requirement to notify the member of his/her suspension even if wing/region gets involved for suspensions more than 60 days; there is only a requirement to notify the member of suspension is the suspension is part of the membership termination process THEN they are required to notify that member IAW 35-1.

You didn't read far enough.  Here's the relevant part of CAPR 35-1 Paragraph 2-2 (my emphasis):

b. Notification Procedures. Members being suspended pending termination are notified by letter of their suspended status under the provisions of CAPR 35-3. Other members will be notified via CAPF 2a as follows:
(1) Section II, Duty Assignment/Status Change, will be completed to show the member transferred from "Active Status" to "Suspended Status." Include reasons for the suspension in the Remarks Section (Section VI). If the member is suspended for alleged cadet abuse, include the following statement, "Suspended under provisions of CAPR 52-10." The term of suspension, i.e., 30 days, 60 days, will also be included.
(2) The CAPF 2a, signed by the commander, will be delivered to the member personally or by certified mail to ensure receipt.
(3) A copy of the CAPF 2a will be retained in the unit file and a copy will be forwarded to NHQ/DP for processing. Members in suspended status will be removed from the active membership rolls and will not be authorized access to eServices.

So, no letter, no suspension.  Period.  The previous commander may have sent the required notification to the wrong address, but a look at your personnel file and an email to NHQ/DP will show if proper procedures were followed.

Quote from: NC Hokie on September 11, 2014, 05:44:27 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:13:52 PM
There is no requirement to notify the member of his/her suspension even if wing/region gets involved for suspensions more than 60 days; there is only a requirement to notify the member of suspension is the suspension is part of the membership termination process THEN they are required to notify that member IAW 35-1.

You didn't read far enough.  Here's the relevant part of CAPR 35-1 Paragraph 2-2 (my emphasis):

b. Notification Procedures. Members being suspended pending termination are notified by letter of their suspended status under the provisions of CAPR 35-3. Other members will be notified via CAPF 2a as follows:
(1) Section II, Duty Assignment/Status Change, will be completed to show the member transferred from "Active Status" to "Suspended Status." Include reasons for the suspension in the Remarks Section (Section VI). If the member is suspended for alleged cadet abuse, include the following statement, "Suspended under provisions of CAPR 52-10." The term of suspension, i.e., 30 days, 60 days, will also be included.
(2) The CAPF 2a, signed by the commander, will be delivered to the member personally or by certified mail to ensure receipt.
(3) A copy of the CAPF 2a will be retained in the unit file and a copy will be forwarded to NHQ/DP for processing. Members in suspended status will be removed from the active membership rolls and will not be authorized access to eServices.

So, no letter, no suspension.  Period.  The previous commander may have sent the required notification to the wrong address, but a look at your personnel file and an email to NHQ/DP will show if proper procedures were followed.

I currently have my personnel file; so they can't deposit any kind of LORs or 2As of this type, I requested my personnel file via proper channels because I didn't trust those who were in authority to not screw up more severely than they already did (we have a number of forms with sensitive information go missing that's all I am going to say) and yeah I realize this is a sticky situation concerning my personnel file as I shouldn't have it (but I should have a copy I just haven't had time to return it to the squadron). 

Maybe he did send it to the wrong address; but as I have pointed out numerous times, I was not prevented from logging into eServices and my LSCode hasn't changed during this whole process from the very getgo.  So you're saying I should email NHQ membership department and get a confirmation of my membership status? What's the email to that department?

BTW I did read that part of the regulation; and thanks for clearing that up, I did read that part of the language and it seemed like it was for notifying those who were about to be terminated but yes I see how it is worded differently to include those just being suspended; and I also noticed that the suspension beyond 60 days has to be for other infractions beyond regulations (such as criminal) so even then; they can't suspend me more than 60 days even if they had done so.

If you have the file, that is another reason why you are in 000. They had to put you someplace, short of filing a 2B.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 05:54:51 PM
Maybe he did send it to the wrong address; but as I have pointed out numerous times, I was not prevented from logging into eServices and my LSCode hasn't changed during this whole process from the very getgo.  So you're saying I should email NHQ membership department and get a confirmation of my membership status? What's the email to that department?

You already know what your membership status is from eServices, and there is no evidence that two of the three documentation/notification procedures were followed, so contacting NHQ probably isn't necessary.  What you do with this knowledge is entirely up to you.

Quote from: a2capt on September 11, 2014, 06:46:44 PM
If you have the file, that is another reason why you are in 000. They had to put you someplace, short of filing a 2B.

I didn't get my file until AFTER I was transferred to 000; I could see this being true if I got it BEFORE

well anyway its all semantics; the file is already on its way back via restricted certified mail.

Quote from: NC Hokie on September 11, 2014, 06:52:54 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 05:54:51 PM
Maybe he did send it to the wrong address; but as I have pointed out numerous times, I was not prevented from logging into eServices and my LSCode hasn't changed during this whole process from the very getgo.  So you're saying I should email NHQ membership department and get a confirmation of my membership status? What's the email to that department?

You already know what your membership status is from eServices, and there is no evidence that two of the three documentation/notification procedures were followed, so contacting NHQ probably isn't necessary.  What you do with this knowledge is entirely up to you.

Nice way to put it, its amazing what I could do with this knowledge; if I started running around screaming "he said that I was suspended" and they all look at me like "what the hell are you talking about?" I'd look stupid and an embarrassment, I'll refrain from further until the commander responds to the fact I pointed out that I am not suspended, depending on what he says I may pursue.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:57:21 AM

Quote from: PHall on September 11, 2014, 04:30:37 AM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 11, 2014, 04:18:21 AM
So back to the one question I have:

Since I am not suspended (I have access to eServices) and I am still a full fledged CAP member (not a patron, because Patron members don't have access to ops quals which I have access to still). Do I need permission to go to squadron meetings and participate in activities that do not require CC approval? (since I am at 000, I can't get approvals to go to encampment, or conferences, etc).

Is there any regulation concerning CAP members attending squadron meetings as a guest as far as what they can/can't do (like help out, etc); after all I AM a full fledged member, I can attend any squadron, participate in any SAREX (I just can't get CC approval for training).

I had access to e-services when I was suspended a couple of years ago. So I would not rely on that as an indicator.

How did you know you were suspended? Were you transferred to 000 when you got suspended? (or was the transfer to 000 part of your suspension process in 2 steps?) How long were you suspended for? (suspensions more than 60 days requires approval of the next higher CC up to 180 days MAXIMUM).

The regs doesn't even say a transfer is required to even be suspended (you can be suspended while in your unit, a transfer is not necessary).

Edit correction: It hasn't been fully 60 days yet (in 7 more days it will be assuming I was suspended on the 17th of June when I was transferred to 000); but that brings me to another question: I wrote this thread on the 16th of June how could I have known about it beforehand? ;) Interesting!

Also, FYI there is no requirement to notify said member of suspension UNLESS the suspension is for a pending membership termination action (a 2B) THEN you get notified that you're suspended otherwise as far as I can see in the regs; a mere suspension requires no notification (HOWEVER what have you, how the hell do you know you're suspended if you're not told otherwise? Because you surely don't want to show up in uniform to a meeting while suspended as that's a big no no).

Oh yeah, did NHQ know about your suspension when you were suspended? The regulations require NHQ to be notified of this personnel action, if they weren't then you were incorrectly suspended no matter the intent AND was your LSCode anything other than "A" as Eclipse has pointed out?

I'm finding that there are really really big holes in this (as far as my "suspension" goes).

I was told, face to face, by my Squadron Commander. He wasn't the person who suspended me.

mynetdue........what really is the problem?

Either you are suspended or you are not.

Either way you are not a member of the squadron as you got moved to the 000 unit.

If you are not suspended....then you are a member with out a squadron.   You may do what any other CAP member can do.

At this point, your point of contact is either the wing commander (who is in theory in charge of the 000 unit) or find a new squadron and get transferred there.

so.....for four pages you have been belly aching looking for CAPTALKERs to say "you are right and they are wrong", but none of matter at all in this situation.

If your intention is to return to the squadron when the CC moves on.......then wait for the change of command and get the new commander to transfer you back to the squadron.

If your intention is to get your chain of command into trouble....then make your complaint to the appropriate commander/IG and move on.

All this belly aching on CAPTALK is just noise.

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 12:41:30 AM
mynetdue........what really is the problem?

Either you are suspended or you are not.

Either way you are not a member of the squadron as you got moved to the 000 unit.

If you are not suspended....then you are a member with out a squadron.   You may do what any other CAP member can do.

At this point, your point of contact is either the wing commander (who is in theory in charge of the 000 unit) or find a new squadron and get transferred there.

so.....for four pages you have been belly aching looking for CAPTALKERs to say "you are right and they are wrong", but none of matter at all in this situation.

If your intention is to return to the squadron when the CC moves on.......then wait for the change of command and get the new commander to transfer you back to the squadron.

If your intention is to get your chain of command into trouble....then make your complaint to the appropriate commander/IG and move on.

All this belly aching on CAPTALK is just noise.

Sergeant Harris pretty much summed this up. Find out if you're suspended. Use your CoC. Don't come here and ask questions that can't be answered. If you're in the 000 (I've been there...between assignments....it took about 40 seconds to get out after finding a new role...), find a new unit. His advice about the IG is dead on. Griping here will not solve your problem.

I haven't looked at the membership regs in quite a while, but I'm pretty sure that if you are actually "suspended" you were supposed to have received something in writing, through certified mail stating such, as well as information about your right to appeal.  So if someone has said that you are "suspended" and hasn't followed the proper procedure for doing so...well...that's a different deal.

LSCode A has nothing to do with active status vs suspended. It indicates that a member has passed their FBI background check. Brand new SMs will not show this code until their check completes, nor will cadets. From what I understand it's equivalent to the leadership code on the old MML, though I can't say I've ever seen one.

CAPR 35-1
2-2. Suspended Member Status. Commanders may place any member in suspended status under the conditions outlined below. Members in suspended status are prohibited from attending meetings, participating in CAP activities, wearing the CAP uniform or otherwise exercising the privileges of membership. A suspended member must also turn in his/her membership card to the unit commander for the duration of the suspension. Suspended status is not intended as a routine personnel action and commanders will use discretion in placing members in this status.
a. Conditions for Suspension:
(1) Proposed Membership Termination. A member is automatically considered in suspended status upon notification of membership termination proceedings under CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination. The suspension is effective until the termination process is complete including appeal periods.
(2) Regulatory Infractions or Misconduct. A unit commander or higher commander may suspend a member for up to 60 days for misconduct or regulatory infractions. Suspensions in excess of 60 days require approval of the wing commander (or commander at the next higher echelon if the suspension is initiated at wing or region level). Suspensions under the provisions of this paragraph will not exceed a total of 180 days.
(3) Suspected Cadet Abuse or Unfavorable Information. Any member may be suspended for alleged or suspected cadet abuse, any time other information is received which, if substantiated, would make the member subject to termination or while an internal investigation of such allegations is pending. The suspension is effective for up to 60 days, shall be continued automatically beyond that time to the extent criminal charges are pending or a criminal investigation is ongoing (based upon statements from the appropriate law enforcement agency) and may be continued beyond that time if further internal investigation is required. Additional 60 day suspensions for internal investigations will be approved (if necessary) by the next higher authority with justification why the extension is required. Suspensions pending an internal investigation may not exceed 180 days without approval of the National Commander.
b. Notification Procedures. Members being suspended pending termination are notified by letter of their suspended status under the provisions of CAPR 35-3. Other members will be notified via CAPF 2a as follows:
(1) Section II, Duty Assignment/Status Change, will be completed to show the member transferred from "Active Status" to "Suspended Status." Include reasons for the suspension in the Remarks Section (Section VI). If the member is suspended for alleged cadet abuse, include the following statement, "Suspended under provisions of CAPR 52-10." The term of suspension, i.e., 30 days, 60 days, will also be included.
(2) The CAPF 2a, signed by the commander, will be delivered to the member personally or by certified mail to ensure receipt.
(3) A copy of the CAPF 2a will be retained in the unit file and a copy will be forwarded to NHQ/DP for processing. Members in suspended status will be removed from the active membership rolls and will not be authorized access to eServices.
c. Final Disposition of Suspension. Suspensions are automatically lifted at the end of the specified period unless extended or removed earlier by the commander concerned. If the member has been suspended for alleged cadet abuse, the recommendation of action to be taken must be coordinated in advance with the General Counsel (877-227-9142, extension 234, Fax 334-265-4352). Upon approval of the final action by the wing (or region commander if appropriate), the commander initiates the appropriate personnel actions. Sensitive matters should be marked "sensitive information."

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 12:41:30 AM
mynetdue........what really is the problem?

Either you are suspended or you are not.

Either way you are not a member of the squadron as you got moved to the 000 unit.

If you are not suspended....then you are a member with out a squadron.   You may do what any other CAP member can do.

At this point, your point of contact is either the wing commander (who is in theory in charge of the 000 unit) or find a new squadron and get transferred there.

so.....for four pages you have been belly aching looking for CAPTALKERs to say "you are right and they are wrong", but none of matter at all in this situation.

If your intention is to return to the squadron when the CC moves on.......then wait for the change of command and get the new commander to transfer you back to the squadron.

If your intention is to get your chain of command into trouble....then make your complaint to the appropriate commander/IG and move on.

All this belly aching on CAPTALK is just noise.

Don't be such a pansy...

1st of all; no I am not looking for anyone to agree, and I don't need them to agree because IAW with the regulations I'm right I don't have to get them to validate who is right and who is wrong!

it was 3 pages until 2.5 months ago... sheesh seriously... shush until you can read this entire thread; I have waited until the old CC has moved on; the new CC isn't exactly willing to just transfer me back right away has he has no obligation to do so and I am not asking whether that is right or wrong either that isn't even the question at hand so buzz off.

Quote from: THRAWN on September 12, 2014, 02:05:48 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 12:41:30 AM
mynetdue........what really is the problem?

Either you are suspended or you are not.

Either way you are not a member of the squadron as you got moved to the 000 unit.

If you are not suspended....then you are a member with out a squadron.   You may do what any other CAP member can do.

At this point, your point of contact is either the wing commander (who is in theory in charge of the 000 unit) or find a new squadron and get transferred there.

so.....for four pages you have been belly aching looking for CAPTALKERs to say "you are right and they are wrong", but none of matter at all in this situation.

If your intention is to return to the squadron when the CC moves on.......then wait for the change of command and get the new commander to transfer you back to the squadron.

If your intention is to get your chain of command into trouble....then make your complaint to the appropriate commander/IG and move on.

All this belly aching on CAPTALK is just noise.

Sergeant Harris pretty much summed this up. Find out if you're suspended. Use your CoC. Don't come here and ask questions that can't be answered. If you're in the 000 (I've been there...between assignments....it took about 40 seconds to get out after finding a new role...), find a new unit. His advice about the IG is dead on. Griping here will not solve your problem.

Great I wish it were that simple, it'll take me 40 lifetimes... get over it!

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 12, 2014, 03:21:55 AM
I haven't looked at the membership regs in quite a while, but I'm pretty sure that if you are actually "suspended" you were supposed to have received something in writing, through certified mail stating such, as well as information about your right to appeal.  So if someone has said that you are "suspended" and hasn't followed the proper procedure for doing so...well...that's a different deal.

You're absolutely right; and I've made that perfectly clear to the new CC

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 12, 2014, 03:29:01 AM
LSCode A has nothing to do with active status vs suspended. It indicates that a member has passed their FBI background check. Brand new SMs will not show this code until their check completes, nor will cadets. From what I understand it's equivalent to the leadership code on the old MML, though I can't say I've ever seen one.

Ok... really? Then how do I know if I'm suspended; IAW to 35-1 it says that if you're suspended you do not have access to eServices; but PHall says he's had access to eServices during his suspension so maybe that was before the regs was updated to include eServices; back in the days before eServices IIRC from other comments others have made; a 2A was put in your file and you got told you were suspended with a copy of your 2A to indicate it whether they gave it to you in person or via certified mail.

All I'm trying to do is here is figure out what makes sense and what doesn't; I can't go to my CoC; my wing commander won't talk to me he just defers me to his VC whom is also biased and thinks that I want to get my own way I cannot trust anyone at the wing level and right now there's no basis for an IG complaint at the next higher level at this point IMO; I am not going to throw out an F30 at a region IG just because I want to get somebody in trouble, there's no need for that unless I have a valid reasonable legit reason so a commander who just wants to make sure he is doing everything IAW with the best interest of CAP I can't fault him for doing that and not going to go to IG because he is being overly protective.

And you wonder why you got suspended....even if your old commander did not do it right.

Okay....this is me buzzing off.

Good night.

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 05:13:21 AM
And you wonder why you got suspended....even if your old commander did not do it right.

Okay....this is me buzzing off.

Good night.

I'm just going to laugh; that's probably why you don't do so well at CAP either with your kind of 'tude :P

Quote from: mynetdude on September 12, 2014, 04:47:04 AM
All I'm trying to do is here is figure out what makes sense and what doesn't;

You're not suspended and you're in 000 as an active member, happens all the time for various reasons. 

End of discussion and investigation.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 12, 2014, 04:47:04 AM
I can't go to my CoC; my wing commander won't talk to me he just defers me to his VC whom is also biased and thinks that I want to get my own way I cannot trust anyone at the wing level and right now there's no basis for an IG complaint at the next higher level at this point IMO; I am not going to throw out an F30 at a region IG just because I want to get somebody in trouble, there's no need for that unless I have a valid reasonable legit reason so a commander who just wants to make sure he is doing everything IAW with the best interest of CAP I can't fault him for doing that and not going to go to IG because he is being overly protective.

With no legitimate basis for, nor willingness to file, a complaint, you are done.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 12, 2014, 01:00:59 PM
With no legitimate basis for, nor willingness to file, a complaint, you are done.

With no legitimate basis for, willingness to file is irrelevant.

Far too many people don't understand the purpose of the IG.  The IG is not an alternate commander who recommends to commanders how to exercise their discretion.  They're not mediators who resolve disputes.  They investigate violations of the regulations on the basis of evidence. 

If you disagree with what a commander's done, that's not an IG issue.  If the commander has violated the regulations, it MAY be an issue, however, you still need evidence of a violation.  Even so, the IG does not "fix" the issue, their role is to report the issue to the Wing (or higher) commander along with an assessment of the factual basis for the violation.

I strongly recommend that members go and take the IG Basic Course in LMS.  Aside from then being able to lend a hand on SUIs, it gives a really good overview of how the IG program actually works.

Seems to me you were put into 000 at your own request when you  submitted the letter to your previous CC announcing your "resignation" from the unit. If the new CC is leery about accepting you into the Squadron, find another one-unless you've burned all your bridges within commuting distance.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 12, 2014, 01:00:59 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 12, 2014, 04:47:04 AM
All I'm trying to do is here is figure out what makes sense and what doesn't;

You're not suspended and you're in 000 as an active member, happens all the time for various reasons. 

End of discussion and investigation.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 12, 2014, 04:47:04 AM
I can't go to my CoC; my wing commander won't talk to me he just defers me to his VC whom is also biased and thinks that I want to get my own way I cannot trust anyone at the wing level and right now there's no basis for an IG complaint at the next higher level at this point IMO; I am not going to throw out an F30 at a region IG just because I want to get somebody in trouble, there's no need for that unless I have a valid reasonable legit reason so a commander who just wants to make sure he is doing everything IAW with the best interest of CAP I can't fault him for doing that and not going to go to IG because he is being overly protective.

With no legitimate basis for, nor willingness to file, a complaint, you are done.

Oh, but I am willing; just not for the wrong reasons.

Quote from: JeffDG on September 12, 2014, 01:18:25 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on September 12, 2014, 01:00:59 PM
With no legitimate basis for, nor willingness to file, a complaint, you are done.

With no legitimate basis for, willingness to file is irrelevant.

Far too many people don't understand the purpose of the IG.  The IG is not an alternate commander who recommends to commanders how to exercise their discretion.  They're not mediators who resolve disputes.  They investigate violations of the regulations on the basis of evidence. 

If you disagree with what a commander's done, that's not an IG issue.  If the commander has violated the regulations, it MAY be an issue, however, you still need evidence of a violation.  Even so, the IG does not "fix" the issue, their role is to report the issue to the Wing (or higher) commander along with an assessment of the factual basis for the violation.

I strongly recommend that members go and take the IG Basic Course in LMS.  Aside from then being able to lend a hand on SUIs, it gives a really good overview of how the IG program actually works.

Yeah that's why I can't/won't file an IG complaint because I don't have any basis for a complaint as so far nothing has violated any regulations and even if there are regulatory violations, I don't have any proof so therefore I cannot use the IG for any other means.

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 12, 2014, 02:29:44 PM
Seems to me you were put into 000 at your own request when you  submitted the letter to your previous CC announcing your "resignation" from the unit. If the new CC is leery about accepting you into the Squadron, find another one-unless you've burned all your bridges within commuting distance.

Yes its correct I did; it wasn't my intention, and it was too late to ask how I should resign so I wouldn't be transferred.  I could transfer to another unit not too far from me, but due to various reasons of my own I am not ready to transfer to that unit until I've satisfactorily met my personal needs which could take a year or more and at that point I may already be moving to another state anyway which at that point I may have already let my membership lapse far enough that I would be required to start over completely (which would be fine really) before moving back to my home state again.

And FWIW I suppose the only thing I can do is file a complaint to IG if someone is preventing me from actively participating in CAP when I am not even suspended; HOWEVER I'd have to have PROOF, I am not the kind of person who is going to point a finger at someone with an empty bowl.

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 12, 2014, 02:29:44 PM
Seems to me you were put into 000 at your own request when you  submitted the letter to your previous CC announcing your "resignation" from the unit. If the new CC is leery about accepting you into the Squadron, find another one-unless you've burned all your bridges within commuting distance.

Going a bit off topic here, but I am curious how the assignment change from a squadron to the 000 squadron takes place. Is this something that the commander or personnel officer does?

Quote from: MacGruff on September 12, 2014, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 12, 2014, 02:29:44 PM
Seems to me you were put into 000 at your own request when you  submitted the letter to your previous CC announcing your "resignation" from the unit. If the new CC is leery about accepting you into the Squadron, find another one-unless you've burned all your bridges within commuting distance.

Going a bit off topic here, but I am curious how the assignment change from a squadron to the 000 squadron takes place. Is this something that the commander or personnel officer does?

As simple as going into E-Services, Personnel Actions and initiating the transfer. Takes 30 seconds.

Quote from: MacGruff on September 12, 2014, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 12, 2014, 02:29:44 PM
Seems to me you were put into 000 at your own request when you  submitted the letter to your previous CC announcing your "resignation" from the unit. If the new CC is leery about accepting you into the Squadron, find another one-unless you've burned all your bridges within commuting distance.

Going a bit off topic here, but I am curious how the assignment change from a squadron to the 000 squadron takes place. Is this something that the commander or personnel officer does?

the commander would direct the personnel officer to start it.  The transfer would actually have to be b done at wing as you can only transfer in to a squadron not out.

A note on the IG system.   The complainant does not have to have "proof" that they have a complaint.  It is the IG's job to find the proof

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 05:41:10 PM

Quote from: MacGruff on September 12, 2014, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 12, 2014, 02:29:44 PM
Seems to me you were put into 000 at your own request when you  submitted the letter to your previous CC announcing your "resignation" from the unit. If the new CC is leery about accepting you into the Squadron, find another one-unless you've burned all your bridges within commuting distance.

Going a bit off topic here, but I am curious how the assignment change from a squadron to the 000 squadron takes place. Is this something that the commander or personnel officer does?

the commander would direct the personnel officer to start it.  The transfer would actually have to be b done at wing as you can only transfer in to a squadron not out.

Must be different for 000 because I was able to transfer over a dozen a few months ago.

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 05:43:22 PM
A note on the IG system.   The complainant does not have to have "proof" that they have a complaint.  It is the IG's job to find the proof

Ah I had the impression the complainant had to have proof, after all they are the ones pointing the fingers they obviously either don't like something or see something legitimately wrong and the last IG I talked to told me that I needed to cite every regulation that pertains to the complaint on the CAPF 30 so I assumed I needed proof otherwise I could have continued my ADA discrimination to the EOO (of course they found my findings baseless which I don't agree with but hey... that's kinda moot now).

As for the suspension... that's all been cleared up as of 10 minutes ago :D

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 12, 2014, 05:45:21 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 05:41:10 PM

Quote from: MacGruff on September 12, 2014, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 12, 2014, 02:29:44 PM
Seems to me you were put into 000 at your own request when you  submitted the letter to your previous CC announcing your "resignation" from the unit. If the new CC is leery about accepting you into the Squadron, find another one-unless you've burned all your bridges within commuting distance.

Going a bit off topic here, but I am curious how the assignment change from a squadron to the 000 squadron takes place. Is this something that the commander or personnel officer does?

the commander would direct the personnel officer to start it.  The transfer would actually have to be b done at wing as you can only transfer in to a squadron not out.

Must be different for 000 because I was able to transfer over a dozen a few months ago.

I don't think so; since I am in 000 the only way to get out of it is that wing has to push a button but for them to DO that someone from the squadron (usually the squadron CC) has to tell DP to push a button (or the wing CC).

Squadron to squadron transfers don't have this issue because there's a CC on the other end; 000 doesn't have a CC technically.

Last time we did a 000 transfer we had to call wing to do it.   But maybe your wing does it differently

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 05:55:26 PM
Last time we did a 000 transfer we had to call wing to do it.   But maybe your wing does it differently

I don't think its automatic, but yes the squadron CC still had to call the wing DP or CC to tell them to accept the transfer just as they would for receiving a member from 000 as well.

A transfer from any unit requires no intervention by the
current CC. 000 is no different.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 12, 2014, 06:12:20 PM
A transfer from any unit requires no intervention by the
current CC. 000 is no different.

unless that CC sees a reason to deny the transfer, then they must intervene as the current CC.

Yes, correct.  All transfers as automatic and immediate requiring no intervention, acceptance, approval by anyone from
the old unit. 

The old unit has 2 months to disapprove the transfer.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 12, 2014, 05:49:23 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 05:43:22 PM
A note on the IG system.   The complainant does not have to have "proof" that they have a complaint.  It is the IG's job to find the proof

Ah I had the impression the complainant had to have proof, after all they are the ones pointing the fingers they obviously either don't like something or see something legitimately wrong and the last IG I talked to told me that I needed to cite every regulation that pertains to the complaint on the CAPF 30 so I assumed I needed proof otherwise I could have continued my ADA discrimination to the EOO (of course they found my findings baseless which I don't agree with but hey... that's kinda moot now).

As for the suspension... that's all been cleared up as of 10 minutes ago :D

There has to be a complaint that can be backed up by the CAP regulations.  It's up to the system to figure out where the evidence stacks up, or if there was actually a violation of the regulations.  The IG isn't a disciplinarian.  You file a complaint that the commander didn't follow the suspension rules, and they'll investigate and make a determination, based on the evidence that they gather, whether or not the regulation was actually broken.  Then, they will present the finding to the appropriate commander for action to be taken.

Of course, the system is designed to be used for things like "A cadet said I didn't shine my shoes enough", but for things like your situation where it is clear that there is some sort of something "weird" going on.  Mishandling of adverse personnel actions, sexual harassment, equal opportunity violations, mishandling of monies/property, etc.  The worst that happens is they say "That's not a violation of the regulations."

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 05:41:10 PM
]the commander would direct the personnel officer to start it.  The transfer would actually have to be b done at wing as you can only transfer in to a squadron not out.

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 12, 2014, 05:45:21 PM
Must be different for 000 because I was able to transfer over a dozen a few months ago.

Used to be one could only transfer into his/her own unit but I believe that's changed. Now a DP can move a member from and to a 000 unit.

So it would seem......I just checked it out and I can transfer to 000.   Cool.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 12, 2014, 08:06:16 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 12, 2014, 05:49:23 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on September 12, 2014, 05:43:22 PM
A note on the IG system.   The complainant does not have to have "proof" that they have a complaint.  It is the IG's job to find the proof

Ah I had the impression the complainant had to have proof, after all they are the ones pointing the fingers they obviously either don't like something or see something legitimately wrong and the last IG I talked to told me that I needed to cite every regulation that pertains to the complaint on the CAPF 30 so I assumed I needed proof otherwise I could have continued my ADA discrimination to the EOO (of course they found my findings baseless which I don't agree with but hey... that's kinda moot now).

As for the suspension... that's all been cleared up as of 10 minutes ago :D

There has to be a complaint that can be backed up by the CAP regulations.  It's up to the system to figure out where the evidence stacks up, or if there was actually a violation of the regulations.  The IG isn't a disciplinarian.  You file a complaint that the commander didn't follow the suspension rules, and they'll investigate and make a determination, based on the evidence that they gather, whether or not the regulation was actually broken.  Then, they will present the finding to the appropriate commander for action to be taken.

Of course, the system is designed to be used for things like "A cadet said I didn't shine my shoes enough", but for things like your situation where it is clear that there is some sort of something "weird" going on.  Mishandling of adverse personnel actions, sexual harassment, equal opportunity violations, mishandling of monies/property, etc.  The worst that happens is they say "That's not a violation of the regulations."

Yeah well "he said she said" isn't going to be enough for a complaint because people can talk and not break a single regulation (other than swearing, yelling, etc including hazing); I KNOW what I heard, and I KNOW what the intent was but I can't back any of it up, nobody was with me at the time it happened but they were ALL aware because they had individual conversations with the same person I did because he would say specifics to those individuals about me (and others as well); according to ADA law (IANAL so I don't claim to be an expert on this) for discrimination to take place action has to have happened preventing you getting what is afforded to everyone else as long as you're capable of doing it and you're qualified to do it; the guy wanted to flat out refuse to approve my CAP DL and I have no adverse driving history and I have no restriction other than to wear eyeglasses but I choose not to drive in the rain not because my Dr tells me I can't.

I had one person try to tell me that the ADA is only to protect your livelihood in a setting where money is involved (gainfully employed, public access (stores, movies, hospitals, etc)).  The ADA doesn't just cover that; but that's besides the point.  IMO IG should have asked other people how what the former CC said to me and them affects what the complaint was about but they didn't even bother with that.

Anyway its all moot now; I've accomplished one goal and that was getting the former CC to not be commander, I'm satisfied with the results however I had hoped for better; I'd settle for something than nothing.

Quote from: lordmonar on September 14, 2014, 04:01:19 AM
So it would seem......I just checked it out and I can transfer to 000.   Cool.

on your own or as DP/CC?

I'm an assistant personnel officer and a lot of other hats so I'm not sure

Quote from: mynetdude on September 14, 2014, 07:36:08 AM
Anyway its all moot now; I've accomplished one goal and that was getting the former CC to not be commander, I'm satisfied with the results however I had hoped for better; I'd settle for something than nothing.

Sounds like you have/had a personal vendetta and agenda against your former CC.  With an attitude like that no wonder the CC of your old unit isn't jumping to have you transferred back. 

Quote from: mynetdude on September 14, 2014, 07:36:08 AM
Yeah well "he said she said" isn't going to be enough for a complaint because people can talk and not break a single regulation (other than swearing, yelling, etc including hazing); I KNOW what I heard, and I KNOW what the intent was but I can't back any of it up, nobody was with me at the time it happened but they were ALL aware because they had individual conversations with the same person I did because he would say specifics to those individuals about me (and others as well); according to ADA law (IANAL so I don't claim to be an expert on this) for discrimination to take place action has to have happened preventing you getting what is afforded to everyone else as long as you're capable of doing it and you're qualified to do it; the guy wanted to flat out refuse to approve my CAP DL and I have no adverse driving history and I have no restriction other than to wear eyeglasses but I choose not to drive in the rain not because my Dr tells me I can't.

I had one person try to tell me that the ADA is only to protect your livelihood in a setting where money is involved (gainfully employed, public access (stores, movies, hospitals, etc)).  The ADA doesn't just cover that; but that's besides the point.  IMO IG should have asked other people how what the former CC said to me and them affects what the complaint was about but they didn't even bother with that.

Anyway its all moot now; I've accomplished one goal and that was getting the former CC to not be commander, I'm satisfied with the results however I had hoped for better; I'd settle for something than nothing.

Always the picture comes together when you have more crayons.

ADA applies to people in a protected class.  "Choosing not to drive in the rain." is not a protected class.

If the Commander felt that you, for whatever reason, should not be driving a CAP vehicle, then good on him for refusing to approve the DL.
The fact that you have indicated publicly some reticence to drive at night, likely is the typical "30% admission" of more issue
that people will make when trying to justify the situation.  I have personally denied CAP DL's to people I felt
have poor decision making ability, or other related issues.  This is the fiduciary responsibility of every commander.
Good on him for at least not avoiding the situation, only to regret it later.

If you felt you were discriminated against, there is a Complaint process for that, one that CAP takes very seriously.
You have indicated you have no grounds for a sustainable complaint.

You resigned, formally, from the unit and are "shocked" when you are put in 000.

Absent being in the room, and what are most likely the reams of "explanation" and emails, not to mention the burdensome "conversations"
which have likely accompanied a situation where your response should have been "Oh well, if they don't want me to drive a COV, I won't drive a COV, less
for me to worry about...",  those of us who have worn a CC badge have filled in the rest of the lines, your final statement about wanting to have the commander
"not to be the commander" was the period.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2014, 05:35:35 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 14, 2014, 07:36:08 AM
Yeah well "he said she said" isn't going to be enough for a complaint because people can talk and not break a single regulation (other than swearing, yelling, etc including hazing); I KNOW what I heard, and I KNOW what the intent was but I can't back any of it up, nobody was with me at the time it happened but they were ALL aware because they had individual conversations with the same person I did because he would say specifics to those individuals about me (and others as well); according to ADA law (IANAL so I don't claim to be an expert on this) for discrimination to take place action has to have happened preventing you getting what is afforded to everyone else as long as you're capable of doing it and you're qualified to do it; the guy wanted to flat out refuse to approve my CAP DL and I have no adverse driving history and I have no restriction other than to wear eyeglasses but I choose not to drive in the rain not because my Dr tells me I can't.

I had one person try to tell me that the ADA is only to protect your livelihood in a setting where money is involved (gainfully employed, public access (stores, movies, hospitals, etc)).  The ADA doesn't just cover that; but that's besides the point.  IMO IG should have asked other people how what the former CC said to me and them affects what the complaint was about but they didn't even bother with that.

Anyway its all moot now; I've accomplished one goal and that was getting the former CC to not be commander, I'm satisfied with the results however I had hoped for better; I'd settle for something than nothing.

Always the picture comes together when you have more crayons.

ADA applies to people in a protected class.  "Choosing not to drive in the rain." is not a protected class.

If the Commander felt that you, for whatever reason, should not be driving a CAP vehicle, then good on him for refusing to approve the DL.
The fact that you have indicated publicly some reticence to drive at night, likely is the typical "30% admission" of more issue
that people will make when trying to justify the situation.  I have personally denied CAP DL's to people I felt
have poor decision making ability, or other related issues.  This is the fiduciary responsibility of every commander.
Good on him for at least not avoiding the situation, only to regret it later.

If you felt you were discriminated against, there is a Complaint process for that, one that CAP takes very seriously.
You have indicated you have no grounds for a sustainable complaint.

You resigned, formally, from the unit and are "shocked" when you are put in 000.

Absent being in the room, and what are most likely the reams of "explanation" and emails, not to mention the burdensome "conversations"
which have likely accompanied a situation where your response should have been "Oh well, if they don't want me to drive a COV, I won't drive a COV, less
for me to worry about...",  those of us who have worn a CC badge have filled in the rest of the lines, your final statement about wanting to have the commander
"not to be the commander" was the period.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

You're right a person choosing not to drive in the rain is not a protected class; a person with a medically documented vision history is, the choice to not drive is a personal safety decision and has no bearing on CAP because there is no fiduciary/liability responsibilities so long as I can demonstrate the ability to be safe and not put others in danger.  I'll give you a hint: former CC says "he is blind, he can't see" (but he has said that of another member who also has vision problems and can drive too) let's try that again; I have a driver's license, I see a doctor regularly (my doctor requires it if I want to continue driving) and yes I may have difficulty seeing the computer screen and I do excellent driving plus I'm about to get a whole lotta vision here pretty soon that may allow me to personally be comfortable with driving in the rain again.

You're right I did resign; whether or not intentional or not; I was not aware it would require a transfer to 000; its never happened before in my almost 8 years in CAP this just recently started happening probably in the last 3-4 years now and I didn't know about it.

My comment about the CC not being the CC was for good reason; he almost destroyed the entire squadron he told everybody he wanted to shut down the squadron if he quit (he had been saying that from day one of his CC hat); was unfit to be a CC otherwise I would have no qualms about most of his decisions he has rendered except for discrimination of having a CAP DL and being in logistics but none of you can know the whole story because you're only seeing my side obviously.

I hope it works out; if not I have other plans/ideas :)

You cite discrimination, but have nothing to prove it.  Sorry but if you have vision issues that is the CC's discretion to approve a CAP DL or not.  Also you serve on staff at the CC's discretion and if he feels that your vision would hamper your performance in logistics then it is his/her discretion to have you in that slot.  That in and of itself is not discrimination. 

By your own admission you have a hard time seeing a computer screen then maybe logistics isn't the best place for you. 

Sounds like the old CC made a judgement call call for the better of the unit and you didn't like it and resigned.  Now you are suffering the repercussions of that decision and want to cry foul. 

Quote from: mynetdude on September 14, 2014, 07:36:08 AMhave no adverse driving history and I have no restriction other than to wear eyeglasses but I choose not to drive in the rain not because my Dr tells me I can't.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 14, 2014, 06:29:49 PM
You're right a person choosing not to drive in the rain is not a protected class; a person with a medically documented vision history is, the choice to not drive is a personal safety decision and has no bearing on CAP because there is no fiduciary/liability responsibilities so long as I can demonstrate the ability to be safe and not put others in danger.  I'll give you a hint: former CC says "he is blind, he can't see" (but he has said that of another member who also has vision problems and can drive too) let's try that again; I have a driver's license, I see a doctor regularly (my doctor requires it if I want to continue driving) and yes I may have difficulty seeing the computer screen and I do excellent driving plus I'm about to get a whole lotta vision here pretty soon that may allow me to personally be comfortable with driving in the rain again.

You're going to need to pick a vector and stick with it.

Either you have a "medically documented vision history" or you don't, and if you told me that you were "ok to drive unless it rains" you wouldn't
get a CAP DL, either.  What did you expect to do if you were depended on to drive a vehicle and the weather changed on the return trip?
If you are corrected to within the legal limit to drive a vehicle of the respective COV class, the rest is irrelevant.  If you chose, to bring your
limitations, whatever they may be, to the attention of the CC, and with that knowledge he decided you should not be driving COVs, what did you expect?
Further, unless you are legally blind, not "euphemistically blind", you are not in a protected class.  Having limitations does not give
you ADA protections, it means you're a human being.

Also, the ADA does not trump safety or performance issues.  It indicates "reasonable accommodations", it's not the automatic ban-hammer people
try to use it for.

So even if it did apply, it's irrelevant, but it doesn't apply, so there you go.

Further to this, if your entire CAP experience hinged on whether you could have a CAP DL, then there's something wrong there.
Which to those of us reading between the lines, means there's a lot more to this story, perhaps in your favor, but we're not
seeing the whole picture here.  I've had a CAP DL forever, and if my commander decided I shouldn't be driving for CAP anymore,
and he had a valid reason (like I told him I have sight issues), then I'd FIMO.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2014, 08:22:43 PM

Quote from: mynetdude on September 14, 2014, 07:36:08 AMhave no adverse driving history and I have no restriction other than to wear eyeglasses but I choose not to drive in the rain not because my Dr tells me I can't.

Quote from: mynetdude on September 14, 2014, 06:29:49 PM
You're right a person choosing not to drive in the rain is not a protected class; a person with a medically documented vision history is, the choice to not drive is a personal safety decision and has no bearing on CAP because there is no fiduciary/liability responsibilities so long as I can demonstrate the ability to be safe and not put others in danger.  I'll give you a hint: former CC says "he is blind, he can't see" (but he has said that of another member who also has vision problems and can drive too) let's try that again; I have a driver's license, I see a doctor regularly (my doctor requires it if I want to continue driving) and yes I may have difficulty seeing the computer screen and I do excellent driving plus I'm about to get a whole lotta vision here pretty soon that may allow me to personally be comfortable with driving in the rain again.

You're going to need to pick a vector and stick with it.

Either you have a "medically documented vision history" or you don't, and if you told me that you were "ok to drive unless it rains" you wouldn't
get a CAP DL, either.  What did you expect to do if you were depended on to drive a vehicle and the weather changed on the return trip?
If you are corrected to within the legal limit to drive a vehicle of the respective COV class, the rest is irrelevant.  If you chose, to bring your
limitations, whatever they may be, to the attention of the CC, and with that knowledge he decided you should not be driving COVs, what did you expect?
Further, unless you are legally blind, not "euphemistically blind", you are not in a protected class.  Having limitations does not give
you ADA protections, it means you're a human being.

Also, the ADA does not trump safety or performance issues.  It indicates "reasonable accommodations", it's not the automatic ban-hammer people
try to use it for.

So even if it did apply, it's irrelevant, but it doesn't apply, so there you go.

Yeah its a catch 22; no I am not legally blind, I was born legally blind but the status changed so that in itself cannot be protected.  I disagree and so do several whom have had been CC in the past; what you mention about what happens if the weather changes on the return trip, that scenario gets brought up and its a realistic scenario.

A) in conditions when its known to likely rain; I don't take the chance
B) in conditions when its less likely to rain but it is long range, I don't take a chance
C) in conditions when it is not going to rain it is suitable therefore I can only drive a COV 2-4 months out of the whole year

As a matter of fact I rarely attend squadron meetings during the winter months for that very same reason; so you can expect that I don't drive the COV.  There is nothing wrong with issuing a CAP DL to someone who understands their own limits and isn't going to take those risks during a set of conditions; I will never put myself in that position unless I absolutely know that I can make a full round trip without any issues to safety or abilities even if that means having a 2nd driver who also a CAP member that has a CAP DL.

These limits are not medically imposed, likewise if someone told me they don't drive at night (a lot of older people don't drive at night); I'd still issue them a CAP DL but if I caught them driving at night, I'd have no problem using the CoC to revoke their COV use privileges.  If there WAS a medical restriction, then I can't see issuing them a CAP DL at all.

There are a lot of CAP members who have far worse vision than I do that don't drive at night and drive a COV ;)

I never said that the ADA doesn't trump safety; as long as I am qualified and can do the tasks without major assistance and that does include safety, meaning if my disability poses a safety risk then accommodations are not required

"There are a lot of CAP members who have far worse vision than I do that don't drive at night and drive a COV ;) "

In your unit?

If you can show that then you've got the proof that you were looking for that you are being treated unfairly....which is something you CAN take to your chain of command and/or IG.

But beyond that......really....a CAP DL is what this is about?

I don't really believe that.   As Eclipse says.....there is something behind the scenes here.....don't know if it is you, don't know if it is your former commander, don't know if it is your wing.    Definitely not enough to go on from what you've posted.

"There are a lot of CAP members who have far worse vision than I do that don't drive at night and drive a COV ;) "

In your unit? No, actually in my experience (a lot =! majority)

If you can show that then you've got the proof that you were looking for that you are being treated unfairly....which is something you CAN take to your chain of command and/or IG.

But beyond that......really....a CAP DL is what this is about? No, not just the CAP DL, I could care less about it really; I've had a CAP DL before so its non issue there are other issues at hand the CAP DL is just a "line" list of items they want to attack

I don't really believe that.   As Eclipse says.....there is something behind the scenes here.....don't know if it is you, don't know if it is your former commander, don't know if it is your wing.    Definitely not enough to go on from what you've posted. I agree, you are right


Anyway... we'll see what happens; like I said I have other ideas and plans in the works.