I am not trying to open a can of worms viz. our relationship with the Armed Forces...but ever since I have been in CAP the topic of saluting has always confused me.
Military personnel are not required to salute us but are not prohibited from doing so if they wish. My own experience with this has been generally:
1. Air Force - rarely; I consider myself very fortunate if an Airman even acknowledges me with a "hello."
2. Army - almost always, especially National Guard
3. Navy - usually
4. Marines - 50/50
5. Coast Guard - almost always
However, we are required to salute military officers senior in grade to us. I do not have a problem with this and would do it even if not required.
I have never been able to understand this dichotomy. We are civilians, not subject to the UCMJ, and yet we are required to salute military officers, who (as with all military forces) are subject to UCMJ regs on saluting. Supposedly we can get in trouble if we don't, but how, since we are not subject to the UCMJ? Do we get a 2B for an SMWOG failing to salute a second lieutenant?
I won't even get started too much on saluting within CAP. I do it, as do most other oldsters like me ;) but I find it growing rarer, especially among those who wear the corporate uniforms. About the only consistent saluting within CAP I notice is cadets to seniors.
Example: I would certainly salute our National CC, General Carr, but I personally know seniors who would be more likely to just say "hello (with even "sir" being optional)" to him.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
I am not trying to open a can of worms
Good luck with that.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
I have never been able to understand this dichotomy. We are civilians, not subject to the UCMJ, and yet we are required to salute military officers, who (as with all military forces) are subject to UCMJ regs on saluting. Supposedly we can get in trouble if we don't, but how, since we are not subject to the UCMJ? Do we get a 2B for an SMWOG failing to salute a second lieutenant?
I won't even get started too much on saluting within CAP. I do it, as do most other oldsters like me ;) but I find it growing rarer, especially among those who wear the corporate uniforms. About the only consistent saluting within CAP I notice is cadets to seniors.
Example: I would certainly salute our National CC, General Carr, but I personally know seniors who would be more likely to just say "hello (with even "sir" being optional)" to him.
You certainly could, but likely as part of a larger problem. It's one thing to "not know", it's another to "willfully disobey".
Insubordination is one of those "value add" regulations, used when necessary to make people go away who don't feel
they need to work and play well with others.
People being idiots, acting like they are "empowered" and generally ignoring the rules don't change the rules.
Bottom line, whether you are in the military or not, if you are thinking of a salute as anything more then a
respectful greeting among like-minded peers, you are overthinking it.
Other then it being expected, saluting isn't much different then the way motorcyclists give a quick wave or gesture at
other riders "we're all in this together", but of course, there's always "a few" who are "too good" for whatever reason to
bother, or have some weird mental hoops about why they won't.
Whatever.
Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.
Personally, I don't care about whether to render a salute or not, as I always do. I learnt in the ANG that if it moves and has brass on the shoulder and/or rings on the cuff, you salute. It is a mark of respect. I get all that. I don't think we are required to salute SDF officers (their commissions are State-only), NOAA Corps or USPHS Officers, but I always would. I salute CG Auxiliarists, though I sometimes get an odd look in return, and I salute NSCC officers.
Even some CAP officers lately give me an odd look when I salute them, which to me is somewhat of a worrying trend.
I was also taught that everyone comes to attention when a senior officer enters the room, but I couldn't tell you when the last time was I saw that, though I have called the room to attention for that a few times.
I think its more of a PR tool CAP uses. We are civilian volunteers. The military isn't going to do anything to you for not saluting. But CAP policy can affect your membership.
As a CAP captain, I saluted a Marine 2Lt once and he just returned my salute with an odd look and continued on. I don't know if he was intending to salute me or not. On top of that.... I was only wearing my Marine Corps ribbons on my blues shirt with none of my CAP ribbons. I have to imagine his head was spinning for hours after that little episode :)
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.
CAP is granted the privilege of the Military style uniforms, as part of that comes the responsibility to render proper customs and courtesies.
Internally our grade is as "real" as any other organization in a similar situation, certainly LEAs, FDs, etc., but externally it does not
hold the same weight of sovereign commission, so there you go.
It is in CAP's best interest to insure its members comport themselves properly, and CAP has no power over any other organization.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 03, 2014, 05:53:22 PM
I think its more of a PR tool CAP uses. We are civilian volunteers. The military isn't going to do anything to you for not saluting. But CAP policy can affect your membership.
As a CAP captain, I saluted a Marine 2Lt once and he just returned my salute with an odd look and continued on. I don't know if he was intending to salute me or not. On top of that.... I was only wearing my Marine Corps ribbons on my blues shirt with none of my CAP ribbons. I have to imagine his head was spinning for hours after that little episode :)
None of the Marines I have encountered have even deigned to acknowledge my existence, let alone my gold leaves.
I know a lot of Marines who detest saluting officers from other branches..... not to mention someone in a uniform they don't recognize. ;D 99% of people in the military are in-tune enough to be able to look at a CAP officer and know they arent Air Force or Coast Guard.
It's CAP's rules (not the UCMJ) that say you salute military officer senior in rank to you.
CAP's rules can be enforced within CAP.
But seriously, who is going to exercise CAP administrative discipline on someone for not saluting?
And would something that pedantic stand up against the MARB(marp?)
As you noted, the UCMJ doesn't have anything to do with CAP whatsoever.
The UCMJ says nothing about saluting non military members.
Infact I don't imagine it says anything about saluting at all...
I don't really see someone getting Art 15'd over not saluting.
More like "hey... dude... fix yourself"
Maybe if it was pattern or intentional (probably part of a larger issue)
An officer who notices someone who should salute, not saluting, rather than lighting up that poor person, should probably be taking a minute to evaluate the command environment. Maybe a lack of leadership has allowed the situation to slip so that nobody feels the need, or cares, to be bothered. Maybe morale is so low, that people don't see a reason to be polite, or cheerful (which is how salutes should be exchanged anyway). Maybe the environment is so toxic because of outright negative leadership that people have an equally toxic or hostile attitude.
Maybe that dude has just come off a 14 hour shift and has a lot of trouble at home. Do you really want to jump down his throat because he didn't have his situational awareness up in the parking lot on the way to his car?
Maybe he's a disrespectful punk who feels entitled to no obligation of respect, tradition, and politeness. Is a UCMJ action, or a public nuking the right answer, even there?
The mission of the military, and of CAP is not to 'walk around in uniform saluting each other'.
That's not what we're here for.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.
It is simple.....we are CAP and CAP says who WE will salute........all the others are not CAP and their rules tell them who they have to salute.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 03, 2014, 06:41:19 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.
It is simple.....we are CAP and CAP says who WE will salute........all the others are not CAP and their rules tell them who they have to salute.
CAP could make a regulation that we salute the little-old-lady-crossing-the-street, and we would be bound by regulations to do so.
..and it would get shredded on this forum, but we'd be told "to follow orders", and the rebuttal would be "following orders does not say you can't complain about them".. wash, rinse, repeat.
And part of that rebuttal would be 1/4 members posting about what dress(es) should the little old lady have, and 1/2 would be members stating the little old lady should have / have not a hat on, and the other 1/4 would say not to bother with saluting her just help her cross...
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 03, 2014, 07:37:26 PM
And part of that rebuttal would be 1/4 members posting about what dress(es) should the little old lady have, and 1/2 would be members stating the little old lady should have / have not a hat on, and the other 1/4 would say not to bother with saluting her just help her cross...
And 1/4 would find a way to turn it into a discussion on ABUs
...With half of those arguing the little lady should be wearing them, and the others the members...
Quote from: coudano on June 03, 2014, 06:25:14 PM
The mission of the military, and of CAP is not to 'walk around in uniform saluting each other'.
That's not what we're here for.
No, but it's also not mutually exclusive of "real work".
it is a baseline expectation of membership, like or or not, and part of the whole.
We just need to train the membership better so they don't get so wrapped around the axle about it.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.
We are required to do a lot of things that the Air Force isn't, this just being a very minor one of them. It has probably been 10 years since I've been in a CAP situation where a salute to a military officer would be required, so it isn't a big deal to me.
This whole thing is no big deal. In fact, it is among the smallest of deals.
For military people, if I see somebody who outranks me, I salute. If somebody salutes me, I return it. And my life continues.
With CAP cadets, that's different. They have to salute me. It's part of the culture under which I was reared and in which they live. Not optional, so they get chatted with if they fail to do it.
I'll say this - if a former cadet is in the service and doesn't salute CAP officers "because I don't have to," fine, but for forgetting their roots and the people who helped them along, I would consider that as being rude, low class and ungrateful. Or, as the Russians put it - "некультурный" (uncultured).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRZRRlA4sw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRZRRlA4sw#ws)
Honestly, when it boils down to the core issue.
As far as CAP SMs saluting RealMilitary, the reason..................as I see it, is out of respect for their uniform. We claim to have the priviliage of wearing a [modified] AF uniform, and thus when we are in that uniform, we are expected to honor it by recognizing other persons also wearing that uniform. As I see it, saluting is done out of respect for the uniform, not so much for the person wearing that uniform.
QuoteWith CAP cadets, that's different. They have to salute me. It's part of the culture under which I was reared and in which they live. Not optional, so they get chatted with if they fail to do it.
Correct. With cadets, the situation is different. Cadets are explicitly subordinate to senior members according to CAPs cadet program. They may have Cadet Captains and Majors, but they are still cadets first.
If a cadet doesn't salute me on the sidewalk on the way into the building, i'm more likely to bring it up to the cadet commander // cadet senior nco, and expect them to resolve the issue.
Quote from: coudano on June 07, 2014, 09:12:21 PM
If a cadet doesn't salute me on the sidewalk on the way into the building, i'm more likely to bring it up to the cadet commander // cadet senior nco, and expect them to resolve the issue.
This is where on the spot correction is probably better....with a follow up to the cadet commander if necessary. IMHO.
That's exactly what I would do. In fact, I would probably only approach the cadet commander if I saw a pattern or thought there was systemic problem that required his or her attention. On spot corrections tend to work best.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2014, 09:15:07 PM
That's exactly what I would do. In fact, I would probably only approach the cadet commander if I saw a pattern or thought there was systemic problem that required his or her attention. On spot corrections tend to work best.
I can't think of a reason NOT to do this on the spot. Most cadets don't plan to be rude and they expect to be taught in the course of simply being cadets.
In fact, not correcting it is doing the cadet a disservice. Looking back to my own C/CC and CC days, I'd think it odd if a SM deferred correction in favor of after the fact referral.
It is possible to make a "on the spot" correction without being a jerk.
Just need to have the mindset that you're teaching them not punishing them.
Raised voices and harsh words are NOT required.
Quote from: antdetroitwallyball on June 07, 2014, 08:57:48 PM
As far as CAP SMs saluting RealMilitary, the reason..................as I see it, is out of respect for their uniform. We claim to have the priviliage of wearing a [modified] AF uniform, and thus when we are in that uniform, we are expected to honor it by recognizing other persons also wearing that uniform. As I see it, saluting is done out of respect for the uniform, not so much for the person wearing that uniform.
I learnt long ago that you salute the rank, not necessarily the person wearing it.
However, significant numbers of CAP members do not have the privilege of wearing the modified AF uniform.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
However, we are required to salute military officers senior in grade to us.
Wrong. We are required to salute ALL military officers regardless of our rank. Ex: A CAP Major General has to salute a Air Force 2nd Lt. I know this seems weird, but it is how it is.
Quote from: PHall on June 08, 2014, 11:54:50 PM
It is possible to make a "on the spot" correction without being a jerk.
Just need to have the mindset that you're teaching them not punishing them.
Raised voices and harsh words are NOT required.
+1
"Hey Airman, did you not see me?"
"Hey Lt, you need to be setting the example"
"Hey Sgt, what would your airmen thing?"
I'll caveat a little for you...
If it's a phase 1 cadet, i'm mentioning it to the cadet staff.
Training, Enforcement, Remediation for phase 1 cadets for things like this is their job. Not mine.
If it's a one-time thing, then it's not a big deal.
If it's a data point in a larger pattern, then i'm entering that data point into their system for consideration.
(not for them to go out and schwack C/Amn Snuffy specifically, 20 minutes after the fact)
Sure, I can do an on the spot correction. I could do several, over the course of a single CAP meeting... But then again, as a cadet programs administrator, having a corrected phase 1 cadet isn't my primary goal. Having NCO's who correctly instruct, exemplify, and enforce to their trainees is. We are (supposedly) focused on teaching (upper phase) cadets how to lead, not how to follow a set of rules strictly. I'm more interested in helping my cadets in leadership lab recognize an issue, evaluate whether it's a big deal or not, develop a course of action if necessary, implement it, and evaluate its results. Than I am in making sure C/Amn snuffy knows to salute the Lt Col in the parking lot, and does it.
If it's a cadet in phase 2, 3, or 4, i'm more likely to look right at them and say something like "Really???"
Then again if they haven't for the most part mastered such simple things as properly employing customs and courtesies, they probably haven't been promoted to C/SSgt (not in my squadron, anyway)
Quote from: coudano on June 09, 2014, 02:51:00 AM
I'll caveat a little for you...
If it's a phase 1 cadet, i'm mentioning it to the cadet staff.
Training, Enforcement, Remediation for phase 1 cadets for things like this is their job. Not mine.
If it's a one-time thing, then it's not a big deal.
If it's a data point in a larger pattern, then i'm entering that data point into their system for consideration.
(not for them to go out and schwack C/Amn Snuffy specifically, 20 minutes after the fact)
Sure, I can do an on the spot correction. I could do several, over the course of a single CAP meeting... But then again, as a cadet programs administrator, having a corrected phase 1 cadet isn't my primary goal. Having NCO's who correctly instruct, exemplify, and enforce to their trainees is. We are (supposedly) focused on teaching (upper phase) cadets how to lead, not how to follow a set of rules strictly. I'm more interested in helping my cadets in leadership lab recognize an issue, evaluate whether it's a big deal or not, develop a course of action if necessary, implement it, and evaluate its results. Than I am in making sure C/Amn snuffy knows to salute the Lt Col in the parking lot, and does it.
If it's a cadet in phase 2, 3, or 4, i'm more likely to look right at them and say something like "Really???"
Then again if they haven't for the most part mastered such simple things as properly employing customs and courtesies, they probably haven't been promoted to C/SSgt (not in my squadron, anyway)
I would make the correction to a Phase I cadet, no problem.
I would also find out if they had been taught saluting yet. If they hadn't then I will give them the "1 Minute Manager" version of the class and let them go.
Then I would be looking for their Flight Staff so I could ask some rather pointed questions.
Quote from: KCPilot17 on June 09, 2014, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
However, we are required to salute military officers senior in grade to us.
Wrong. We are required to salute ALL military officers regardless of our rank. Ex: A CAP Major General has to salute a Air Force 2nd Lt. I know this seems weird, but it is how it is.
That's NOT how it is, nor has it ever been, since I joined CAP many moons ago. [Emphasis mine]
Quote from: Level I materialsAs a general rule, salutes are rendered as a courtesy between those officers junior (lower) in grade to those officers senior (higher) in grade. For instance, a lieutenant would salute a captain, a captain would salute a major, or a brigadier general would salute a major general. The junior officer initiates the salute as soon as the senior officer is recognized.
Quote from: CAPP 151b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 09, 2014, 03:36:00 AM
Quote from: KCPilot17 on June 09, 2014, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
However, we are required to salute military officers senior in grade to us.
Wrong. We are required to salute ALL military officers regardless of our rank. Ex: A CAP Major General has to salute a Air Force 2nd Lt. I know this seems weird, but it is how it is.
That's NOT how it is, nor has it ever been, since I joined CAP many moons ago. [Emphasis mine]
Seriously, where does this nonsense come from?
Hint: The goobers who decide to "discuss the situation" with some poor airmen or butter bar who made the mistake of saluting them.
Salute.
And.
Move.
On.
I am a bad example at this: real bad :-\
I get saluted indoors? Im not used to it because we didnt do it much. Im not use to being the one slauted, instead im used to the one either running away from officers, waiting untill they pass, or freaking out making sure I do not do it wrong.
Also, I usually tell cadets to not salute me, unless the DCC or CC or Guest is around, im only 8-10 years older than them, lol.
Quote from: KCPilot17 on June 09, 2014, 02:05:52 AM
Wrong. We are required to salute ALL military officers regardless of our rank. Ex: A CAP Major General has to salute a Air Force 2nd Lt. I know this seems weird, but it is how it is.
Funny, we had someone in the CGAUX saying the same thing last year. Of course this was the same goober who was telling new members they had to salute enlisted personnel as well. When I questioned him about where he got this information from he told me that he couldn't remember where he heard it from, but, he personally thought that we should be doing it that way. The sad part is that he was fairly high up in the organization. I had to slip into "SNCO mode" and properly educate him. He no longer spreads this fallacy around.
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 09, 2014, 01:37:14 PM
Funny, we had someone in the CGAUX saying the same thing last year.
I believe in the CGAUX it
is true - the lowest-ranking member of the military outranks any member of the CGAUX.
I never heard anything about saluting enlisted personnel, but definitely
all commissioned and warrant officers.
CAP has grades, even though they only really matter in CAP. The CGAUX does not.
Quote from: Devil Doc on June 09, 2014, 11:37:05 AM
I am a bad example at this: real bad :-\
[. . .]
Also, I usually tell cadets to not salute me, unless the DCC or CC or Guest is around, im only 8-10 years older than them, lol.
Brandon,
Please don't do that. It is hard enough to run a challenging cadet program without seniors actively undermining the training we are giving because they are trying to be "the cool senior member."
I know your heart is in the right place, and I genuinely appreciate your efforts and contributions.
But these particular rules are there for a reason, and it would be helpful if you would help the cadets follow them.
Ned Lee
CP Enthusiast
Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2014, 04:03:06 AM
Seriously, where does this nonsense come from?
Hint: The goobers who decide to "discuss the situation" with some poor airmen or butter bar who made the mistake of saluting them.
Salute.
And.
Move.
On.
One would hope. Sadly, I once had a commander who ordered us to clarify our status if saluted. There was some misplaced concern that we were "impersonating officers" if we merely returned the salute and moved on. She was a piece of work.
Quote from: DoubleSecret on June 09, 2014, 04:00:20 PM
One would hope. Sadly, I once had a commander who ordered us to clarify our status if saluted. There was some misplaced concern that we were "impersonating officers" if we merely returned the salute and moved on. She was a piece of work.
Wow.
Quote from: KCPilot17 on June 09, 2014, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
However, we are required to salute military officers senior in grade to us.
Wrong. We are required to salute ALL military officers regardless of our rank. Ex: A CAP Major General has to salute a Air Force 2nd Lt. I know this seems weird, but it is how it is.
Cite, please.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 09, 2014, 01:50:20 AM
Quote from: antdetroitwallyball on June 07, 2014, 08:57:48 PM
As far as CAP SMs saluting RealMilitary, the reason..................as I see it, is out of respect for their uniform. We claim to have the priviliage of wearing a [modified] AF uniform, and thus when we are in that uniform, we are expected to honor it by recognizing other persons also wearing that uniform. As I see it, saluting is done out of respect for the uniform, not so much for the person wearing that uniform.
I learnt long ago that you salute the rank, not necessarily the person wearing it.
However, significant numbers of CAP members do not have the privilege of wearing the modified AF uniform.
You should read CAPP 151.
Quote from: CAPP 151When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge the salute, but not return it.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2014, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: KCPilot17 on June 09, 2014, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
However, we are required to salute military officers senior in grade to us.
Wrong. We are required to salute ALL military officers regardless of our rank. Ex: A CAP Major General has to salute a Air Force 2nd Lt. I know this seems weird, but it is how it is.
Cite, please.
Urban legend IMO
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 09, 2014, 04:55:22 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2014, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: KCPilot17 on June 09, 2014, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
However, we are required to salute military officers senior in grade to us.
Wrong. We are required to salute ALL military officers regardless of our rank. Ex: A CAP Major General has to salute a Air Force 2nd Lt. I know this seems weird, but it is how it is.
Cite, please.
Urban legend IMO
Quote from: CAPP 151When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves. (emphasis mine)
The portion of that sentence in bold refers to both military and CAP officers.
Quote from: Ned on June 09, 2014, 03:56:50 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on June 09, 2014, 11:37:05 AM
I am a bad example at this: real bad :-\
[. . .]
Also, I usually tell cadets to not salute me, unless the DCC or CC or Guest is around, im only 8-10 years older than them, lol.
Brandon,
Please don't do that. It is hard enough to run a challenging cadet program without seniors actively undermining the training we are giving because they are trying to be "the cool senior member."
I know your heart is in the right place, and I genuinely appreciate your efforts and contributions.
But these particular rules are there for a reason, and it would be helpful if you would help the cadets follow them.
Ned Lee
CP Enthusiast
Ya, I guess I keep forgetting they look up to me, Just feels wierd to me. I am getting better at it though, I walked past a Cadet, he didnt salute and I went Really? Really? He said sorry Sir, I was like I know I dont normally want you to salute me, but please do. I have to remember I am a "Leader" and "Mentor" now.
If it feels weird to you get saluted......go NCO.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 09, 2014, 05:25:08 PM
If it feels weird to you get saluted......go NCO.
Demonstrating the full weight and value of an NCO program in a CAP context - hiding from salutes.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2014, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 09, 2014, 05:25:08 PM
If it feels weird to you get saluted......go NCO.
Demonstrating the full weight and value of an NCO program in a CAP context - hiding from salutes.
Thank you for your input. ........there was more....but I decided to be the bigger man.
Feel free to enlighten us - seriously, you would actually suggest to a member they
should convert to NCO to hide from salutes?
FWIW, I know there's no real answers to the NCO question, I just like the thought of that vein on your forehead pulsing...
...also I know exactly what I can go do to myself... >:D
Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2014, 05:45:21 PM
Feel free to enlighten us - seriously, you would actually suggest to a member they
should convert to NCO to hide from salutes?
FWIW, I know there's no real answers to the NCO question, I just like the thought of that vein on your forehead pulsing...
...also I know exactly what I can go do to myself... >:D
No....I am seriously suggesting that if a member is not comfortable in the traditional officer-mentor role.....that he may be more effective in the NCO-mentor role.
It is called situational leadership....putting round pegs into round holes instead of just trying to ram everyone into YOUR concept of how it should be....and then demeaning everything and everyone who disagrees with your perfect world view.
Have a good day.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 09, 2014, 06:19:02 PM
No....I am seriously suggesting that if a member is not comfortable in the traditional officer-mentor role.....that he may be more effective in the NCO-mentor role.
IF that avenue is open to them. As currently constituted in CAP, it is not.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 09, 2014, 06:21:55 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 09, 2014, 06:19:02 PM
No....I am seriously suggesting that if a member is not comfortable in the traditional officer-mentor role.....that he may be more effective in the NCO-mentor role.
IF that avenue is open to them. As currently constituted in CAP, it is not.
For Devil Doc it is. And as currently envisioned it will be for everyone as well soon (in a few years anyway).
Quote from: lordmonar on June 09, 2014, 06:19:02 PMNo....I am seriously suggesting that if a member is not comfortable in the traditional officer-mentor role.....that he may be more effective in the NCO-mentor role.
NCO-Mentor role? We don't have that in CAP.
We have adult members and cadets.
The roles are identical, regardless of the grade on the shoulder (or arm).
And they always will be.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2014, 06:27:40 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 09, 2014, 06:19:02 PMNo....I am seriously suggesting that if a member is not comfortable in the traditional officer-mentor role.....that he may be more effective in the NCO-mentor role.
NCO-Mentor role? We don't have that in CAP.
We have adult members and cadets.
The roles are identical, regardless of the grade on the shoulder (or arm).
And they always will be.
You say it.....but it is just not true. Look at Devil Doc's comments. He feels uncomfortable as an officer....with the customs and courtesies that go with it. He probably will be happier as an NCO.
As and NCO myself....there is a difference between how I interact with cadets and seniors then when I was a Major.
As the NCO corp expands and matures.....this distinction will continue to grow and mature.
Eclipse....here comes the bus....get on it....or be under it. :)
If I could trade my railway tracks in for SrA stripes, I would do so.
However, an SrA is not an NCO.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 09, 2014, 06:37:41 PM
As the NCO corp expands and matures.....this distinction will continue to grow and mature.
This is what is referred to as "magical thinking".
You have a demonstrably shrinking membership, and struggling units all across the board, not to mention issues of
organizational viability, all generally ignored.
Somehow allowing a percentage of that shrinking member base to simply disavow involvement in the greater
program to allow them to concentrate on an area which has no need for existence will make it "better".
You're 60,000 members away from it even being a viable conversation.
This is akin to repainting the deck chairs on the Titanic that haven't already floated away.
You are absolutely right....and the answer is to kick out more of those people and get our reporting numbers correct.
Ah.....Eclipse you are so funny.
Anyways.....Cyborg and Devil Doc.....look into the NCO corps....we can't take you, Cybrog, yet but according to the "plan" we should have a viable PD and promotion system that will take non-prior NCO's soon (that is CAP soon not real world soon :) )
Devil Doc....I really think you may find wearing SSgt stripes a better fit.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 09, 2014, 06:52:00 PM
You are absolutely right....and the answer is to kick out more of those people and get our reporting numbers correct.
Yes, it is, or at least properly classify them.
A baseline expectation of any successful organization, and a lesson lost on those that fail.
Ya, I was debating the NCO Role, I also would like to have RailRoad Tracks Someday....Decisions.
I might feel more Confortable with a NCO Role, However I wonder how the Cadets would see it?
I am slowly getting used to the Officer Role, by the time i have conformed, the NCO grades should be available. NCO Vs Officer is like a double edge sword.
Quote from: Devil Doc on June 10, 2014, 11:51:51 AM
Ya, I was debating the NCO Role, I also would like to have RailRoad Tracks Someday....Decisions.
I might feel more Confortable with a NCO Role, However I wonder how the Cadets would see it?
I am slowly getting used to the Officer Role, by the time i have conformed, the NCO grades should be available. NCO Vs Officer is like a double edge sword.
I had not problem with my cadets when I transitioned. The biggest problem is that the cadets still treat me like an officer sometimes.....when I point out you don't call the room to attention for NCO's they all say "but you are a Senior Member".
I find that it is easier to be "the cool guy" that is the cadets don't have to be always worrying about snapping to attention every time I ask them a question. They can relax a little around me and we can communicate better.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 10, 2014, 03:59:00 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on June 10, 2014, 11:51:51 AM
Ya, I was debating the NCO Role, I also would like to have RailRoad Tracks Someday....Decisions.
I might feel more Confortable with a NCO Role, However I wonder how the Cadets would see it?
I am slowly getting used to the Officer Role, by the time i have conformed, the NCO grades should be available. NCO Vs Officer is like a double edge sword.
I had not problem with my cadets when I transitioned. The biggest problem is that the cadets still treat me like an officer sometimes.....when I point out you don't call the room to attention for NCO's they all say "but you are a Senior Member".
I find that it is easier to be "the cool guy" that is the cadets don't have to be always worrying about snapping to attention every time I ask them a question. They can relax a little around me and we can communicate better.
That would be a good reason why I would want to become Enlisted, the "Cool Guy" and dont have to worrry about saluting, however, I dunno SSGT Smith or 1st Smith?
or MSGT Smith or Captain Smith
Quote from: lordmonar on June 10, 2014, 03:59:00 PM
I had not problem with my cadets when I transitioned. The biggest problem is that the cadets still treat me like an officer sometimes.....when I point out you don't call the room to attention for NCO's they all say "but you are a Senior Member".
I found that weird when I was a SMWOG...I had no grade, no status as officer, enlisted, warrant or NCO, but nonetheless they snapped to when I entered a room, addressed me as "sir" and saluted me...even though I was wearing nothing to denote an officer.
I also knew that I had to render officer courtesies to Flight Officers, but I had a stinker of a time recognising them, especially in BDU's.
Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.
Quote from: BHartman007 on June 11, 2014, 06:28:21 PM
Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.
No, they're required to salute all senior member officers, not all senior members.
Quote from: JeffDG on June 11, 2014, 06:32:10 PM
Quote from: BHartman007 on June 11, 2014, 06:28:21 PM
Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.
No, they're required to salute all senior member officers, not all senior members.
Correct. That is what perplexed me - rendering officer courtesies to me when I had no grade at all.
Quote from: JeffDG on June 11, 2014, 06:32:10 PM
Quote from: BHartman007 on June 11, 2014, 06:28:21 PM
Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.
No, they're required to salute all senior member officers, not all senior members.
The salute is just one part of C&C.
Quote from: JeffDG on June 11, 2014, 06:32:10 PM
Quote from: BHartman007 on June 11, 2014, 06:28:21 PM
Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.
No, they're required to salute all senior member officers, not all senior members.
One of the training courses (I want to say Officer Basic?) said that for purposes of C&C SMWOG was treated as an officer.
This is what CAPP 151 says about cadets saluting senior members:
Quote from: CAPP 151When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. (emphasis mine)
It's interesting that it says "CAP senior members" and not "CAP officers". That said, I agree that cadets should render CAP NCOs the customs and courtesies that are rendered to NCOs, which doesn't include saluting (unless reporting).
Traditionally, senior members that are yet to be promoted to 2d Lt (or FO for that matter), have been informally considered "officers in training" (no, that's not an official status, but somewhat implied). That may explain why cadets would treat them as officers. With the new NCO program, there is a possibility that a new senior member will now be considered "officer in training" or "NCO in training" before they're promoted to 2d Lt or SSgt, as appropriate. The differences in uniform were addressed in the yet to be official CAPM 39-1 draft.
But regardless of whether a senior member is an officer, NCO or has no grade, cadets still need to render appropriate customs and courtesies, as a new senior member (even without grade) is still superior in rank than a C/Col.
To say that CAP publications are inconsistant is an understatement. Sort of that whole push to get all CAP Senior Member to be just called CAP Officers. Sounds great....but you forgot about the 80 or so NCO's.
Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
I assume it's kind of like boot camp, where we saluted NCO's "just for practice"...
IIRC, USAFA Cadets on summer activities are saluted by enlisted and they are not technically officers, however, I have heard them addressed occasionally as third lieutenants.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2014, 06:09:21 AM
To say that CAP publications are inconsistant is an understatement. Sort of that whole push to get all CAP Senior Member to be just called CAP Officers. Sounds great....but you forgot about the 80 or so NCO's.
Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
I agree. I don't believe the issue is with NCOs, but with senior members without grades. What are they? They're not officers, but they're not enlisted either. Are they suppose to be saluted by cadets? According to CAPP 151, yes. But should they? Until we can differentiate between senior members in the officer track and those in the NCO track, that's going to cause confusion among cadets. And because we teach cadets that when in doubt salute, they'll continue to salute senior members even when they don't have a grade. But again, I agree with you; NCOs are normally not saluted.
Quote from: AirAux on June 12, 2014, 11:56:14 AM
IIRC, USAFA Cadets on summer activities are saluted by enlisted and they are not technically officers, however, I have heard them addressed occasionally as third lieutenants.
If they are saluted....it is by mistake. Looks like an officer, talks like an officer.....salute it.
Quote from: AirAux on June 12, 2014, 11:56:14 AM
IIRC, USAFA Cadets on summer activities are saluted by enlisted and they are not technically officers, however, I have heard them addressed occasionally as third lieutenants.
Way, way back when, at a time I was considering applying for an appointment to the USAFA (like that was ever gonna happen), back in the days before time - when dirt was so new it still had the price tag on it - I recall reading in one of the Academy booklets they sent people who were interested that during the summer between one's junior and senior year, one goes out into the field in the status of a "third lieutenant."
Never did understand what that was all about at the time; now I understand that it puts a cadet into a job in the chain of command.
Heinlein did something very much like that with his "Starship Troopers."
Jack
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2014, 06:09:21 AMSame story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
Is it a good idea to teach our cadets to ignore rules they don't agree with?
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2014, 06:09:21 AMSame story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
What if the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?
Quote from: Fubar on June 15, 2014, 10:34:10 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2014, 06:09:21 AMSame story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
Is it a good idea to teach our cadets to ignore rules they don't agree with?
Yes. In this case because the pamphlet is simply wrong.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 15, 2014, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2014, 06:09:21 AMSame story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
What id the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?
Stripes from another service? Also....unless you are reporting to the commander or part of a formation.....you don't salute NCOs. It does not matter if he is the unit commander or the national commander.
It is not rocket science. You don't salute NCO's normally.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2014, 11:01:54 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 15, 2014, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2014, 06:09:21 AMSame story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
What id the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?
Stripes from another service? Also....unless you are reporting to the commander or part of a formation.....you don't salute NCOs. It does not matter if he is the unit commander or the national commander.
It is not rocket science. You don't salute NCO's normally.
NCO's are NOT commanders, ever! They're either NCOIC's or a Superentendant.
Quote from: PHall on June 16, 2014, 12:22:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2014, 11:01:54 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 15, 2014, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2014, 06:09:21 AMSame story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
What id the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?
Stripes from another service? Also....unless you are reporting to the commander or part of a formation.....you don't salute NCOs. It does not matter if he is the unit commander or the national commander.
It is not rocket science. You don't salute NCO's normally.
NCO's are NOT commanders, ever! They're either NCOIC's or a Superentendant. You know that Pat.
Cite your source. Sorry Eclipse....
Quote from: PHall on June 16, 2014, 12:22:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2014, 11:01:54 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 15, 2014, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2014, 06:09:21 AMSame story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me. And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise. This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.
What id the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?
Stripes from another service? Also....unless you are reporting to the commander or part of a formation.....you don't salute NCOs. It does not matter if he is the unit commander or the national commander.
It is not rocket science. You don't salute NCO's normally.
NCO's are NOT commanders, ever! They're either NCOIC's or a Superentendant.
Currently there is one at least one CAP NCO who is a squadron commander. As the NCO program advances that will not be allowed. But I agree with you...if you want to command trade in your stripes.
Quote from: PHall on June 16, 2014, 12:22:50 AM
NCO's are NOT commanders, ever!
Which CAP are
you in?
There are currently two members wearing stripes from another service who are posted as CC, down from about
10 the last time I looked about 6 months ago.
There are also 3 SMWOG.
Assuming CAP ever starts an NCO program, removing NCOs from the possibility (and frankly the responsibility) of being unit CCs will only further
reduce the already too small number of people
dumb enough willing to do the job, and rob CAP of the potential
experience and leadership of people who would otherwise make excellent commanders.
More reason why a legit NCO caste-type system will never be workable in today's CAP. We're somewhere
short of enough people to even consider the idea by about 1/2.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 16, 2014, 01:52:43 AM
Quote from: PHall on June 16, 2014, 12:22:50 AM
NCO's are NOT commanders, ever!
Which CAP are you in?
There are currently two members wearing stripes from another service who are posted as CC, down from about
10 the last time I looked about 6 months ago.
There are also 3 SMWOG.
Assuming CAP ever starts an NCO program, removing NCOs from the possibility (and frankly the responsibility) of being unit CCs will only further
reduce the already too small number of people dumb enough willing to do the job, and rob CAP of the potential
experience and leadership of people who would otherwise make excellent commanders.
More reason why a legit NCO caste-type system will never be workable in today's CAP. We're somewhere
short of enough people to even consider the idea by about 1/2.
Wasn't talking about CAP. I was responding to Lordmonar's post and I was referring to the Air Force.
CAP does what CAP does. And it doesn't always follow military tradition.
And yes, when I was an NCO in CAP I was told I could not be a Commander or even a Primary Tactical Officer at Encampment because having an NCO in charge of officers is just not done.
Just one of the many reasons I reverted back to my CAP officer grade. Being an NCO causes too many problems if you're working in Cadet Programs.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 16, 2014, 01:52:43 AM
There are currently two members wearing stripes from another service who are posted as CC, down from about
10 the last time I looked about 6 months ago.
This is the second time you have said this......what do you mean "another service's stripes"?
Quote from: lordmonar on June 16, 2014, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 16, 2014, 01:52:43 AM
There are currently two members wearing stripes from another service who are posted as CC, down from about
10 the last time I looked about 6 months ago.
This is the second time you have said this......what do you mean "another service's stripes"?
I believe maybe he means because we elect to keep our NCO rank, they aren't so much CAP grade as they are prior military grade.
Quote from: The14th on June 16, 2014, 07:41:39 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 16, 2014, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 16, 2014, 01:52:43 AM
There are currently two members wearing stripes from another service who are posted as CC, down from about
10 the last time I looked about 6 months ago.
This is the second time you have said this......what do you mean "another service's stripes"?
I believe maybe he means because we elect to keep our NCO rank, they aren't so much CAP grade as they are prior military grade.
Hmmm... Maybe they're wearing British Chevrons on their BDU's/Class A's instead of USAF insignia. :D :D
I have known at least one squadron commanded by an SMWOG, who, the last time I saw her, was a Major. She worked bloody hard to get that unit up and running.
It would certainly look confusing to the general public and military to have an NCO giving direction to "commissioned" officers, but, there is a lot about CAP that is confusing.
Quote from: Grumpy on June 16, 2014, 04:24:38 PM
Hmmm... Maybe they're wearing British Chevrons on their BDU's/Class A's instead of USAF insignia. :D :D
Have to admit they look pretty cool...
(http://mpmuseum.org/rcaf_badges/rank/pfsgt.jpg)
(http://mpmuseum.org/secur/rank/06a.jpg)
(http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/raaf-sqns/raaf-ranks.jpg)
Quote from: CyBorg on June 16, 2014, 05:40:47 PM
Have to admit they look pretty cool...
(http://mpmuseum.org/rcaf_badges/rank/pfsgt.jpg)
When I was a policeman, one of the officers got promoted to sergeant had his stripes put on British fashion for his promotion ceremony. I told him he had to fix that and he could not understand why, even after looking at the on duty sergeants. Yes you got three stripes, but they are upside down. Finally he understood "UPSIDE DOWN". Not exactly, "sheepdog" mentality ;)
^^This picture is actually of a pre-1968 RCAF Flight Sergeant's insignia, which is the general pattern throughout the Commonwealth.
However, it does look like a police Staff Sergeant, although the Aussies have an interesting rank title: "Incremental Sergeant," in the New South Wales Police Force.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Nsw-police-force-senior-sergeant.png)
Everything I know about London police ranks I learned from Hot Fuzz.
Quote from: Panache on June 18, 2014, 02:56:10 PM
Everything I know about London police ranks I learned from Hot Fuzz.
I don't know nothin' bout no skellingtons! You're not Judge Judy and executioner!
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
I have never been able to understand this dichotomy. We are civilians, not subject to the UCMJ, and yet we are required to salute military officers, who (as with all military forces) are subject to UCMJ regs on saluting. Supposedly we can get in trouble if we don't, but how, since we are not subject to the UCMJ? Do we get a 2B for an SMWOG failing to salute a second lieutenant?
Well military personnel are required to salute based on the UCMJ. CAP members are required to salute military officers as an organizational rule for members because of our respect for the "parent" organization and history of CAP.
Not really a dichotomy. Look at the argument in reverse. CAP members don't have to salute each other (with the exception of cadets) because we aren't military, and military officers don't have to salute us because we aren't military.
NorCal-
I am only assuming by that answer that you are a cadet with little experience in the program.
Quote From CAPP 151, Respect on Display.
THE SALUTE
Key Principle
When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves.
If senior members would not be required to salute other senior members, cadets will not learn.
As simple as that.
Are you a cadet, or a senior member?
QuoteFrom Cyborg:
...since we are not subject to the UCMJ? Do we get a 2B for an SMWOG failing to salute a second lieutenant?
Because our rules, regulations, and/or traditions as stated on
CAPP 151 says we salute military officers
and senior members higher in rank.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 22, 2014, 11:04:13 AM
NorCal-
I am only assuming by that answer that you are a cadet with little experience in the program.
Quote From CAPP 151, Respect on Display.
THE SALUTE
Key Principle
When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves.
If senior members would not be required to salute other senior members, cadets will not learn.
As simple as that.
Are you a cadet, or a senior member?
Did you bother to read his profile?
Quote from: PHall on June 22, 2014, 03:48:43 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 22, 2014, 11:04:13 AM
NorCal-
I am only assuming by that answer that you are a cadet with little experience in the program.
Quote From CAPP 151, Respect on Display.
THE SALUTE
Key Principle
When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves.
If senior members would not be required to salute other senior members, cadets will not learn.
As simple as that.
Are you a cadet, or a senior member?
Did you bother to read his profile?
Phil, chill out no big thing dude. He's the only 38 year old cadet in CAP.
Yessir, after I posted my response.
Which begs a new question.
How can a 38-year-old senior member, and a regular poster, can state that senior members are not required to salute each other?
Well, just be patient. We're wearing the AF uniform, walking around with rank on our shoulders, it should be a no brainer. Some. people just seem to want to make a big thing out nothing. If you receive a salute from someone on active duty, return it exchange pleasentries on go on your way. It's a greeting, like waving hi to a friend. Ye gads, mountains and mole hills.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 22, 2014, 06:15:45 PM
Yessir, after I posted my response.
Which begs a new question.
How can a 38-year-old senior member, and a regular poster, can state that senior members are not required to salute each other?
Show me a REGULATION cite where it says you have to.
CAPP 151 is a pamphet and because it a pamphet it's non-directive. (CAPR 5-4, Para 1.i)
-----------------------------------
That being said I do salute CAP Senior Member Officers. And not because I
have to either.
Quote from: PHall on June 22, 2014, 06:39:30 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 22, 2014, 06:15:45 PM
Yessir, after I posted my response.
Which begs a new question.
How can a 38-year-old senior member, and a regular poster, can state that senior members are not required to salute each other?
Show me a REGULATION cite where it says you have to.
CAPP 151 is a pamphet and because it a pamphet it's non-directive. (CAPR 5-4, Para 1.i)
-----------------------------------
That being said I do salute CAP Senior Member Officers. And not because I have to either.
CAPM 39-1 doesn't say I have to remove my cap when I am indoors, or to put it on when I am outdoors, either. That being said, I do both.
CAPP 151 being non-directive is just another in a long series of problems relating to our regs, manuals, and pamphlets that no one seems to care about terribly much. Same with ICLs being issued for uniform changes and never incorporated into the parent publication within the prescribed timeframe (90 days; CAPR 5-4, Para 4b).
PHALL-
Your question reminds me of some lines of the movie A Few Good Men...
Capt. Ross: (This is you, PH) Ah, we're in luck then. Standard Operating Procedures, Rifle Security Company, Guantanamo Bay Cuba. Now I assume we'll find the term code red and its definition in that book. Am I correct?
Cpl. Barnes: No sir.
Capt. Ross: No? Corporal Barnes, I'm a Marine. Is there no book. No manual or pamphlet, no set of orders or regulations that lets me know that, as a Marine, one of my duties is to perform code reds?
Cpl. Barnes: No sir. No book, sir.
Capt. Ross: No further questions.
[as Ross walks back to his table Kaffee takes the book out of his hand]
Kaffee: Corporal, would you turn to the page in this book that says where the mess hall is, please.
Cpl. Barnes: Well, Lt. Kaffee, that's not in the book, sir.
Kaffee: You mean to say in all your time at Gitmo you've never had a meal?
Cpl. Barnes: No, sir. Three squares a day, sir...
Hey, I quoted that a few pages back...or was it a related post...
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 22, 2014, 10:04:38 PM
Hey, I quoted that a few pages back...or was it a related post...
Related.
Gari-
Great minds think alike! ;D
Quote from: Panache on June 18, 2014, 02:56:10 PM
Everything I know about London police ranks I learned from Hot Fuzz.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Great program!