Here's my story. I am a cadet Master Sergeant at a squadron in the NE region. I'm the fastest promoter in my squadron. I'm 17 years old, have a driver's license, and I outrank my flight sergeant, flight commander, and first sergeant. In fact, I'm one of the only Senior NCOs in my squadron (there's only 2) and I'm the oldest in-flight cadet! And I'm actually older than the XO by a couple months. The C/C is older than me by a couple years though.
I'm tired of being bossed around by 8th and 9th grade cadets, honestly. The only reason I'm not on staff (I've been told by other in-flight cadets) is because I'm not as good in drill as everyone else. Other than that, they all think I should be on staff! They said they see me as more of a paperwork guy that could possibly one day run the squadron.
How long will this continue? And are there any protocols that state that you should be given a mandatory staff position at "X" rank?
Come on, I can't imagine an in-flight (soon to be) cadet senior master sergeant, let alone an in-flight officer.
What are your thoughts, opinions, and stories on in-flight NCOs?
::)
So....the fix is to become better at drill.
Also.....in CAP as in life you have to learn to be "bossed around" by people younger and less experinced then you.
This conversation needs to be addressed to your chain of command. If you feel you are not in the right position....you should ask what you need to do to reach that goal.
And NO there is no protocals that say Position X must be filled by Y rank.
I'm in a very similar boat, but at a much smaller squadron with fewer positions. I recently became the Safety Officer because I proved my self to most of the senior members and the cadet staff even though the CC thinks I "dropped the ball" on CyberPatriot (totally different story). My point is, if you prove yourself to most of the squadron and give your all every meeting, and attend events and SAREXs even when others won't, be patient and do other thigs like recruiting, you'll get somewhere. Good things come to those who wait work their butt off.
It's tough being passed over by younger, less experienced cadets for leadership positions. I don't blame you for being frustrated. The first thing you need to do is talk with the people who make the decisions of who goes where. They are the only people who truly know why you have not been appointed to a leadership or staff position.
Hopefully you receive some helpful constructive feedback on the areas you need to work on in order to be given more responsibilities. Often we humans get defensive when our shortcomings are pointed out to us, how you react to that feedback and criticism is entirely up to you and will likely be a large contributing factor in the decision to assign you to a job or keep you in the flight. If you come up with excuses or rationalize why you're not performing as well as your leadership thinks, you're likely to remain in the flights. Take the feedback to heart and start showing improvements in those areas, you'll likely earn the trust of your leadership and find yourself given more responsibility.
As I'm sure you're aware from your leadership training, it doesn't take a formal job title to be a leader within your squadron. Lead by example, show the other cadets what an exemplary cadet is when it comes to promoting, customs and courtesies, and uniform wear.
As for flight membership, anyone can be a flight member, from a CADET to a C/Col. There are no "mandatory" staff positions, in fact, none of the cadet positions are mandatory. Squadron commanders are given the flexibility to shape the cadet org chart to reflect the grade and experience of the cadets on the roster.
It really sounds to me like you're willing to do what it takes to move up in your squadron and demonstrate your skills. I hope it works out for you.
As stated in an earlier post "anyone can be an inflight NCOS or Officer", I've actually seen a C/Major in ranks, because she decided that once she went on IACE, CAP had nothing more for her and vice versa. You have mentioned that the cadets in your flight feel that you should be in a leadership position, but what feedback are you getting from the leaders of your unit, both Cadet and Senior? Ask them what you need to do to get the position you want. Do you revive a CAPF 50 or other feedback?
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 07, 2013, 11:18:40 PM
As stated in an earlier post "anyone can be an inflight NCOS or Officer", I've actually seen a C/Major in ranks, because she decided that once she went on IACE, CAP had nothing more for her and vice versa. You have mentioned that the cadets in your flight feel that you should be in a leadership position, but what feedback are you getting from the leaders of your unit, both Cadet and Senior? Ask them what you need to do to get the position you want. Do you revive a CAPF 50 or other feedback?
Colonel,
I've received two or three CAPF-50. They (the command) didn't address the issue presented in this post. They told me I was a great cadet, basically, and on a couple occasions they told me I asked too many questions and came too early to the meetings (cons). They then gave me a 4/5 on the eval.
Honestly, I'm kind of too "shy" to bring this up to them. I don't know how I should bring this up to them, etc.
The olde book had a great graphic in chapter 1 to adress this issue. Too bad that was pulled from the program.
If your only problem is drill then there should not be a problem. How are you on aerospace education? Leadership courses? Customs and courtesies? Physical Fitness? Do you work well with others? Do you show good judgment and decision making skills? Do you attend as many meetings and other activities as possible? If your leadership is placing that much emphasis on marching, it is they that have an issue, not you.
For some reason there is an idea that once you hit a certain grade that you no longer are supposed to be in a flight, as though your job becomes to stand outside the flight and watch what is going on around you. So, we get 18 NCOs watching a flight of 3 Amn because the Assistant Supply NCO thinks that he's too good to stand "in flight" during drill.
Since you are one of the faster promoters in your unit, I assume that you are familiar with the Cadet Staff Handbook. As a C/MSgt you (according to the handbook) theoretically would be just coming out of an element leader position - certainly an "in flight" cadet, no? As a C/MSgt, it suggests that you start as a flight sergeant or first sergeant. If you notice, these are all positions that deal directly with the flights, because as a C/NCO you are still a tactical level leader.
I'd suggest you square away your weaknesses. People they label as "more of a paperwork kind of guy" are usually the cadets that do well in the book stuff, but have sufficient weakness in areas that NCOs should be strong in - public speaking, initiative, etc. It's the purpose of the program, to develop you into a leader, so get out there and lead.
I'd also have a discussion with your chain of command and point out that at your level, if you were promoted correctly, that in order to meet the expectations of a cadet at your level, you need to be in a position that enables you to do the things that someone at that level is expected to do. For example, if you are expected to be proficient in public speaking, you need to have the opportunity to develop your public speaking ability. If you are supposed to be proficient in conducting drill, you need to have opportunities to teach it.
Quote from: horseraider12 on April 07, 2013, 10:01:43 PM
Here's my story. I am a cadet Master Sergeant at a squadron in the NE region. I'm the fastest promoter in my squadron. I'm 17 years old, have a driver's license, and I outrank my flight sergeant, flight commander, and first sergeant. In fact, I'm one of the only Senior NCOs in my squadron (there's only 2) and I'm the oldest in-flight cadet! And I'm actually older than the XO by a couple months. The C/C is older than me by a couple years though.
I'm tired of being bossed around by 8th and 9th grade cadets, honestly. The only reason I'm not on staff (I've been told by other in-flight cadets) is because I'm not as good in drill as everyone else. Other than that, they all think I should be on staff! They said they see me as more of a paperwork guy that could possibly one day run the squadron.
How long will this continue? And are there any protocols that state that you should be given a mandatory staff position at "X" rank?
Come on, I can't imagine an in-flight (soon to be) cadet senior master sergeant, let alone an in-flight officer.
What are your thoughts, opinions, and stories on in-flight NCOs?
::)
OK... you're older and have promoted faster.
How much longer have these 8th and 9th grade cadets been in the program than you have?
Being younger, less mobile and likely less involved in school activities how much more experience do they have with unit/group/wing functions?
Have they been to encampment?
Have you?
Being older and outranking them slightly does not necessarily mean you are a better fit for staff than they are.
My squadron commander is younger than I am. Should I not follow his orders?
I get that some of your issue is that you are still a flight member and you are looking over at your cadet staff standing on the sidelines while you still have to perform facing movements with the rest of your flight. Or maybe it's because they get to sit on the other side of the classroom while you sit with the rest of the flight during AE or CDI.
In either case I don't personally believe you are fit to lead the rest of the flight until you are willing to be one of them.
Being upset that you are still In Flight tells me that you think you are better or more deserving than the rest of them. That's not being one of them.
Learn followership. Perhaps that's the lesson they are trying to teach you right now so that you can lead later.
Of course that whole response is based off of one post comprised of about 160 words.... but that's how things work on the internet. :)
Quote from: johnnyb47 on April 08, 2013, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: horseraider12 on April 07, 2013, 10:01:43 PM
Here's my story. I am a cadet Master Sergeant at a squadron in the NE region. I'm the fastest promoter in my squadron. I'm 17 years old, have a driver's license, and I outrank my flight sergeant, flight commander, and first sergeant. In fact, I'm one of the only Senior NCOs in my squadron (there's only 2) and I'm the oldest in-flight cadet! And I'm actually older than the XO by a couple months. The C/C is older than me by a couple years though.
I'm tired of being bossed around by 8th and 9th grade cadets, honestly. The only reason I'm not on staff (I've been told by other in-flight cadets) is because I'm not as good in drill as everyone else. Other than that, they all think I should be on staff! They said they see me as more of a paperwork guy that could possibly one day run the squadron.
How long will this continue? And are there any protocols that state that you should be given a mandatory staff position at "X" rank?
Come on, I can't imagine an in-flight (soon to be) cadet senior master sergeant, let alone an in-flight officer.
What are your thoughts, opinions, and stories on in-flight NCOs?
::)
OK... you're older and have promoted faster.
How much longer have these 8th and 9th grade cadets been in the program than you have?
Being younger, less mobile and likely less involved in school activities how much more experience do they have with unit/group/wing functions?
Have they been to encampment?
Have you?
Being older and outranking them slightly does not necessarily mean you are a better fit for staff than they are.
My squadron commander is younger than I am. Should I not follow his orders?
I get that some of your issue is that you are still a flight member and you are looking over at your cadet staff standing on the sidelines while you still have to perform facing movements with the rest of your flight. Or maybe it's because they get to sit on the other side of the classroom while you sit with the rest of the flight during AE or CDI.
In either case I don't personally believe you are fit to lead the rest of the flight until you are willing to be one of them.
Being upset that you are still In Flight tells me that you think you are better or more deserving than the rest of them. That's not being one of them.
Learn followership. Perhaps that's the lesson they are trying to teach you right now so that you can lead later.
Of course that whole response is based off of one post comprised of about 160 words.... but that's how things work on the internet. :)
Lt,
I've been in longer than all of these cadets. To clear any confusion, this post was NOT a complaint. I'm just bringing up the topic and giving my experiences. Sorry if you thought I was complaining... that's not the case. I was thinking about it today and honestly, I've came to the conclusion that it may have something to do with my religion.
Either way, my time in CAP isn't unlimited I'm leaving after I graduate high school... for bigger and better things. Hopefully this doesn't cause me to have a chip on my shoulder in regard to the cadet program. My experience hasn't been exactly ideal the last year or so.
In closing, I'm not trying to say that I'm a better fit for staff just because of my age or my rank. I'm not saying I'm a better fit for staff, period.
I'm just saying that I don't enjoy being in-flight (I didn't mind being in-flight until I saw cadet E-2s becoming flight sergeants) with the credentials I have. I feel mistreated.
I've been in CAP longer than my group/encampment commander. Guess I'll have to ask him to swap jobs.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 08, 2013, 10:00:57 PM
I've been in CAP longer than my group/encampment commander. Guess I'll have to ask him to swap jobs.
Yeah, but how many oak leaf clusters do you have on your sarcasm ribbon?
Quote from: horseraider12 on April 08, 2013, 09:38:35 PMI've came to the conclusion that it may have something to do with my religion.
Seriously?
If you feel discriminated against based on religion, file a complaint, otherwise, leave that excuse at the door.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on April 08, 2013, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 08, 2013, 10:00:57 PM
I've been in CAP longer than my group/encampment commander. Guess I'll have to ask him to swap jobs.
Yeah, but how many oak leaf clusters do you have on your sarcasm ribbon?
Just one, but I have two silver props on my PITA ribbon.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 08, 2013, 10:07:55 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on April 08, 2013, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 08, 2013, 10:00:57 PM
I've been in CAP longer than my group/encampment commander. Guess I'll have to ask him to swap jobs.
Yeah, but how many oak leaf clusters do you have on your sarcasm ribbon?
Just one, but I have two silver props on my PITA ribbon.
Outstanding!
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on April 08, 2013, 10:33:08 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 08, 2013, 10:07:55 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on April 08, 2013, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 08, 2013, 10:00:57 PM
I've been in CAP longer than my group/encampment commander. Guess I'll have to ask him to swap jobs.
Yeah, but how many oak leaf clusters do you have on your sarcasm ribbon?
Just one, but I have two silver props on my PITA ribbon.
Outstanding!
SARcasm ribbon - 2 silver triangles(Earned while being a smart@$$ on too many missions and SAREXes)
PITA ribbon - too many so I had to get a second ribbon
Quote from: Eclipse on April 08, 2013, 10:03:37 PM
Quote from: horseraider12 on April 08, 2013, 09:38:35 PMI've came to the conclusion that it may have something to do with my religion.
Seriously?
If you feel discriminated against based on religion, file a complaint, otherwise, leave that excuse at the door.
I thought the same thing. And not to hijack the thread but I want everyones opinions on this. I'm in a relatively small squadron (sometimes as few as 8 active cadets) and I've been in for about a year and a half and I'm a c/MSgt. I'm also an inflight nco. I was recently talking to my c/CC and he said that at the recent staff meeting they were deciding new staff positions. The squadron CC "doesn't like me" and didnt want to give me a position because I "dropped the ball" in leading our CyberPatriot team. Now on the subject of this rent which occurred over a year ago, I was a c/Amn and I requested more info on what CyberPatriot was about. Then, he simply told me I was leading the team. In such a small squadron it was difficult to find a motivated 5 man team (he would accept nothing less), while this was going on he failed to find a mentor. For this reason the team obviously never competed. He still brings it up on a fairly regular basis and as stated before only gave me cadet safety officer after all the other SMs and my c/CC "vouched for me". I haven't really thougt of it before typing this all out but is this hazing?
No, it's not hazing, but it is something you need to work on , in person, and sooner then later.
There are clearly misunderstandings and bad feelings on both sides. If you address it properly, you will both be better for it,
and he will likely respect you a lot more.
I just don't know how to approach it without being rude, he doesn't really show it outside of passin me vet for leadership positions. When would I bring it up?
Hazing? Absolutely not. Not even in the slightest.
Miscommunication, disorganization, lack of understanding their role/job/responsibilities, piss-poor delegation, lack of follow up.. all kinds of things.
But not hazing.
That's a serious allegation and a potential tool for destruction, while not meant to be, it certainly tends to play out that way. Be careful where you rattle that sabre.
Just because someone "doesn't like you", doesn't mean they're right and your wrong, or you're wrong and they're right. Work on your next promotion in the best way possible given the circumstances and opportunities offered. Make sure the CAP Form 50 is used in your review boards, document any reason they say you are not elligible for promotion. When they say participation, staffing, duties, be ready with dates, times and specifics as to when you were refused, passed over, or otherwise denied the ability to perform.
Performance now is not based on a flub two years ago, though certainly that can come into play, if it's a legit thing. Sounds to me like, through your side of the story, you got it handed to you for simply showing interest, and it was over your head too. That's failure all around. They are just as much guilty. You don't say, but if you didn't, you should have stepped up and said "I can't do this (alone) or at all.."
But hazing it's not.
Quote from: That Anonymous Guy on April 09, 2013, 07:35:04 PM
I just don't know how to approach it without being rude, he doesn't really show it outside of passin me vet for leadership positions. When would I bring it up?
Ask him for a meeting or discussion, outside of normal meeting hours - involve another leader and/or your parents.
Don't make a huge deal, just tell him there's something important you would like to discuss and clear the air on.
I know it's not hazing now, and maybe I'll arrange a meeting with him. It's just that I've changed and done so much since I was basically forced into leading that team and he still holds it against me and won't drop it.
Perhaps .. because he's afraid of you now, that you will make him look bad. ;-) So while he's got the power, he'll hold you down.
Its ok to be an in-flight NCO. I am a C/SMSgt, soon promoting to C/CMSgt. I'm also the fastest at promoting. I was a flight sergeant, but I got put back as an in-flight to give a C/SSgt experience. And I've been told many times that Im a model cadet and outstanding. Your opportunity to be on staff will come soon, as long as you work for it.
Quote from: a2capt on April 09, 2013, 08:15:16 PM
Perhaps .. because he's afraid of you now, that you will make him look bad. ;-) So while he's got the power, he'll hold you down.
So what am I, cadet Skywalker or something? Lol
Our program is an experiment in leadership. We are supposed to give cadets leadership challenges appropriate to their grade. Giving a relatively new, low ranking cadet command of a team that he knows nothing about is a failure on the leadership's part, not the cadet. While the cadet may have "failed" at the task, it wasn't an appropriate task.
Even so, if a cadet does fail at something, it shouldn't be something that holds them back forever, since it is a learning experience. Where else can you make mistakes if not in a learning environment?
Right and since my attempt at leading that team, I've become an NCO, graduated encampment and much more. Now he's signed us up or this years program without telling anyone.