i am very involved in the cap ground team and i would like to know some other extras things that aren't required according to the task guides but are nice to have
Night vision goggle, a Sylvania Dot-it light $10 circular LED light that is small wafer and sticks to anything and runs for 100 hours on 3 AAA battaries, Binoculars, GPS.
Quote from: swya on February 18, 2007, 06:05:08 AM
i am very involved in the cap ground team and i would like to know some other extras things that aren't required according to the task guides but are nice to have
Depends highly on where you are in the world (i/e: What's the terrain like in your area? Heavy urbanized? Heavily wooded? Plains? Mountainous?).
Also depends on what your typical missions are for GTs in your area. For example, in NY, CAP is not the primary search agency. (Nor the secondary or the tertiary or the...), so most missions are a bit of UDF from the air and in the vehicle. I'm not going to need enough equipment to conquer Everest for those missions, so I will plan and pack accordingly.
But primarily, what extra goodies you bring will depend highly on the type of terrain and climate you're around.
we are in the desertand we do no missions
Quote from: swya on February 19, 2007, 04:29:09 AM
we are in the desert and we do no missions
So what do your ground teams do if Nevada Wing doesn't do any ES missions?
Quote from: shorning on February 19, 2007, 05:38:12 AM
Quote from: swya on February 19, 2007, 04:29:09 AM
we are in the desert and we do no missions
So what do your ground teams do if Nevada Wing doesn't do any ES missions?
Then how are you:
Quote from: swya on February 18, 2007, 06:05:08 AM
...very involved in the cap ground team...
or in any need of
Quoteextras things that aren't required
The gear list is the baseline, then you are supposed to customize beyond that to the conditions you are likely to face. If that's nothing then the answer is pretty obvious.
If you consider nothing else at all, the weight, portability & comfort in & out of a truck should be a factor. Otherwise if you're in the desert then extra water would be a really good start & anything else that can allow for 72+hr survival situations if you get stuck. No one can answer this for you but yourself.
i show up to every sarex but they dont take us to sarex's because they have police teams for that as well as teams for udf but i enjoy the sarex's and work hard on my 101 and i am collecting this stuff for when i go to az wing,oh and thanks alot youre probably right
Quote from: shorning on February 19, 2007, 05:38:12 AM
Quote from: swya on February 19, 2007, 04:29:09 AM
we are in the desert and we do no missions
So what do your ground teams do if Nevada Wing doesn't do any ES missions?
We are rebuilding a capability.
Ground ES dropped off the radar his a few years back....the few times CAP tried to rebuild...they got resistance from the county....the few times the county asked for help we had no capability.
So...about 4 months ago we started looking around for who had GT ratings and started a push to get more training done.
SWYA is part of that training effort. We have not yet built up a capability to fully integrate GT with our SAREX and our SAREX taskings have been mainly focusing on the HLS missions lately...but we have a vision and a part of a plan to fully revive the GT function and will be able to present a capability to our local customers.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 19, 2007, 07:07:59 AM
Quote from: shorning on February 19, 2007, 05:38:12 AM
Quote from: swya on February 19, 2007, 04:29:09 AM
we are in the desert and we do no missions
So what do your ground teams do if Nevada Wing doesn't do any ES missions?
We are rebuilding a capability.
Ground ES dropped off the radar his a few years back....the few times CAP tried to rebuild...they got resistance from the county....the few times the county asked for help we had no capability.
So...about 4 months ago we started looking around for who had GT ratings and started a push to get more training done.
SWYA is part of that training effort. We have not yet built up a capability to fully integrate GT with our SAREX and our SAREX taskings have been mainly focusing on the HLS missions lately...but we have a vision and a part of a plan to fully revive the GT function and will be able to present a capability to our local customers.
Um...IIRC, NVWG hasn't done GSAR in over a decade. When I was in Idaho, we couldn't get any one to work with us because they didn't "do that". Methinks you may be "rebuilding" a capability for which there will be no need. Again, IIRC, the SDs maintain a very tight control on SAR in NV.
It depends on whether or not you can carry the extra equipment. Then your equipment will depend on UDF or GT.
i can carry it and i hope to do both
that makes sense and i have been interested in learning all that for a while
Quote from: lordmonar on February 19, 2007, 07:07:59 AM
Quote from: shorning on February 19, 2007, 05:38:12 AM
Quote from: swya on February 19, 2007, 04:29:09 AM
we are in the desert and we do no missions
So what do your ground teams do if Nevada Wing doesn't do any ES missions?
We are rebuilding a capability.
Ground ES dropped off the radar his a few years back....the few times CAP tried to rebuild...they got resistance from the county....the few times the county asked for help we had no capability.
So...about 4 months ago we started looking around for who had GT ratings and started a push to get more training done.
SWYA is part of that training effort. We have not yet built up a capability to fully integrate GT with our SAREX and our SAREX taskings have been mainly focusing on the HLS missions lately...but we have a vision and a part of a plan to fully revive the GT function and will be able to present a capability to our local customers.
I don't know if you've already done this, but I'd start talking to the authorities before getting to far along in the rebuilding. If you can document when they've called you, it'll help get your foot in the door. Otherwise, if the authorities don't support you, you're just wasting time and resources. You'll end up building folks hopes up, then crushing them, along with any creditibilty you may have with them.
well, crushing hopes is what it could possibly turn out to be if you guys fail, but i think you've gotten enouf depressing responses from here.
Id say go for it. Talk to other agencies like SAR teams and the sherriffs of a few counties. But you cant do it with out training long and hard. Good things worth earning are made of sweat and maybe some blood. Not in a homicide way either. Suposedly u get out wut u put in. They to recruit SM's from city officials, sherrif people, sar people, etc
and for your gear, desert..... can u guys wer desert BDU's? and id say have a cammel bak within ur gear sumhow, or 2 quart canteens in a ruck, but its all based on terrain, climate, and mission types.
Quote from: IronRangerMN on March 28, 2007, 04:32:01 AM
and for your gear, desert..... can u guys wer desert BDU's? and id say have a cammel bak within ur gear sumhow, or 2 quart canteens in a ruck, but its all based on terrain, climate, and mission types.
Desert BDUs = NOGO in Civil Air Patrol. Read CAPM 39-1 (see www.cap.gov/pubs )
Appropriate gear and hydration supply, yes. Desert Camo, no.
And FYI, we have a handy installed "Spell Check" feature that you can click before you click "Post." It's not "ur", "sumhow", "wutever" or "u" -- effective communications, the hallmark of a good leader, starts with proper English grammar and spelling. ;)
if you are trying to fit into an existing SAR community find out who they are certifying through. Each entity has its unique requirements. Off of the top of my head check out
NASAR
MRG
NFPA
As far as my personal gear goes.
Webbing, 75' life safety line (NFPA), Carabiners (locking)
GPS
Goggles
Safety Glasses
helmet
head lamp
chem light sticks
accountability board
Harness
case of bottled water
radio harness (chest)
My dog
dog food, safety vest for dog, other dog stuff
hand held radio programed with CAP, and mutual aid channels
Missing person characteristic profiles reference book
Predator abduction profile material
lap top
printer
Orthographic imagery of search area (produced every 2 years)
Sectionals
Gazatear (map)
911 map of the search area
USGS Map of the area
Thermal Imagery
an entertaining book to read while waiting for an assignment
Life Jacket (doesn't apply for the desert)
Business Cards
Professionalism
Note: some of this material is not a part of a CAP load out, and is not used on CAP missions. Equipment is personalised to the mission profile.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on March 29, 2007, 01:41:49 AM
if you are trying to fit into an existing SAR community find out who they are certifying through. Each entity has its unique requirements. Off of the top of my head check out
NASAR
MRG
NFPA
Here is the link to a 24 hour equipment list which is a compilation from 20 ground teams selected at random from around the US, including the NASAR SARTECH equipment list. It shows how many of the 20 teams listed each piece of equipment.
24-hour Pack Equipment List (http://www.m2ei.com/equipment/SAR_Equipment_List_Compilation.pdf)
The list was developed for ASTM standard F2209 which defines the requirements for an "entry level" ground searcher (think GTM3/T). There is no minimum equipment list specified in ASTM F2209. The standard allows the agency or team to decide what equipment should be carried (e.g. GT Task O-0001), and shows the list only for reference.
If MRG is supposed to be MRA (Mountain Rescue Association), MRA doesn't have any specific equipment for its teams or members. NFPA doesn't specify any SAR equipment, either.
Checking with the local SAR teams is excellent advice, though.
Mike
I was going to point that out in another thread as someone claiming to represent the Rangers had some of the very same issues, but I didn't want to seem too confrontational so I let it drop. Seriously, those kinds of things do matter.
Sure, we all make mistakes in either our typing, spelling, or grammar, but at least make the effort to look at least halfway professional and folks will take you a lot more seriously.
I noticed someone mentioned a book; I carry a deck of playing cards as the most bang for our buck (and carrying space/weight) during downtime. Think of how many different games you or your teammates can play from solitaire to 5-card stud.
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:
Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification? What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?
Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader.
Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:
Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification? What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?
Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader.
Technically, it's different, but in practice, well..."close enough" seems to be the common attitude.
Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:
Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification? What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?
Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader.
I guess you could say that they are separate but equal. The pure UDF is more driving around till you find the ELT, whereas Ground Team is walking through the woods until you find the target. Of course, nothing is pure and there is a lot of overlap.
For instance, last weekend we had a Wing SAREX. Our squadron and another were tasked to track down an ELT signal. It started out to be UDF work, but we soon found we had to do a lot of work in the woods, which is where the target wound up being located.
In my squadron, we often wind up teaching both at the same time. Of course, you still need separate mission credits.
While GTM3 might seem more capable in some ways (if you go in the woods or spend the night out, you don't do it as a UDF member, or at least not by the regs) , one area that UDF has the edge is that if I recall correctly (and I'm on too slow of a connection today to want to look it up - I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) a UDF member can lead a UDF team - the team leader of a UDF team must be GTL or UDF. If you look at the UDF SQTR, there are quite a few items from GTL on there.
This brings up the interesting possibility of a 2-cadet UDF team, possibly not doable due to CP or a cadet actually being in charge of a pair of UDF(t) SMs.
Quote from: davedove on March 29, 2007, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:
Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification? What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?
Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader.
I guess you could say that they are separate but equal. The pure UDF is more driving around till you find the ELT, whereas Ground Team is walking through the woods until you find the target. Of course, nothing is pure and there is a lot of overlap.
For instance, last weekend we had a Wing SAREX. Our squadron and another were tasked to track down an ELT signal. It started out to be UDF work, but we soon found we had to do a lot of work in the woods, which is where the target wound up being located.
In my squadron, we often wind up teaching both at the same time. Of course, you still need separate mission credits.
So you can't get mission credit for both UDF and GTM simultaneously or during the same mission?
Only if you ran 2 sorties, one as a UDF member and one as a GTM.
Somewhere in the regs I saw a chart of what constitutes a "sortie" (1 mission credit) for the various specialties....claiming simultaneous UDF and GTM for the same sortie would be like claiming 2 UDF or 2 GTM for only 1 sortie.
Quote from: floridacyclist on March 29, 2007, 06:29:48 PM
Only if you ran 2 sorties, one as a UDF member and one as a GTM.
Somewhere in the regs I saw a chart of what constitutes a "sortie" (1 mission credit) for the various specialties....claiming simultaneous UDF and GTM for the same sortie would be like claiming 2 UDF or 2 GTM for only 1 sortie.
Right, it has to be different sorties, but can be the same mission. At the SAREX this weekend, my squadron did it's first sortie in tracking down the ELT. We stopped for lunch, then did a different sortie to a couple of airports.
According to CAPR 60-3, Attach 4, Sortie Equivalency for GTM(n) and UDF are the same. I'm not sure that make total sense, but who am I?
Attach 5 says that only a GTL or UDF can supervise a UDFT, and a UDFT can only supervise a UDFT. That one makes sense.
Correct me if I'm wrong... but as I recall a prerequisite for GT is UDF, plus a GT can RON, a UDFT cannot. Thus Id say GT trumps UDF.
- just my two cents
P.S. - If you are a bling happy cadet: UDF members dont get anything for a uniform. Ground Team members get a shiny piece of bling. ;D
Cadet: :o!!!BLING!!! :o
UDF is not a prereq. for GT, and you do get a patch.
GES patch, you get it for any other specialty including MSA or MRO.
If I'm not mistaken.... Log your sorties as GT rather than UDF & they are backwards compatible. I had all my qual's drop & had to requal. So, couple missions, demonstrate the tasks from UDF to GTM1/GTL, bang they're all back in force. Actually it was a remote IC over cell phone, so I GBD'd it too with his understanding of what I was doing & my past experience. Handful of missions & I'm good again till 2010.
Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:
Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification? What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?
Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader.
The explanation I got from the wing ES gurus is that UDF training actually constitutes the first part of the GTM curriculum. So a qualified GYM3 would, by that measure, automatically qualify for UDF.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 30, 2007, 07:43:43 AM
According to CAPR 60-3, Attach 4, Sortie Equivalency for GTM(n) and UDF are the same. I'm not sure that make total sense, but who am I?
Attach 5 says that only a GTL or UDF can supervise a UDFT, and a UDFT can only supervise a UDFT. That one makes sense.
That was the chart I was looking for, thank you sir. The Sortie Equivalency Chart says:
"Personnel serving in certain duty positions on training or actual missions may be given credit for participation in other areas towards renewal of their specialty qualifications. The following chart outlines the specialties that may be accepted as equivalent for renewal of specialty qualifications"
So it's for renewal only, not for initial.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 30, 2007, 05:53:38 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:
Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification? What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?
Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader.
The explanation I got from the wing ES gurus is that UDF training actually constitutes the first part of the GTM curriculum. So a qualified GYM3 would, by that measure, automatically qualify for UDF.
The leadership here seemed adamant that everyone needed to get UDF qualified first and I kept thinking the whole time, if we're going to spend a weekend doing training, why not go for the biggest bang for your buck and go for GTM3. We looked at the GTM3 SQTR this past week and I think only two tasks carry over from UDF to GTM3...which seems odd.
It's not that big a deal. You can easily fit GTM3 & UDF into the same wknd. You could even train from GES to GTM2 in one wknd if you wrok hard & fast. GTM1 is a bit more time consuming, mainly to get the extra sorties in. GTL by that point is pretty well done give or take a couple tasks. It really is the experience factor that slows you down (just like TIG versus flying thru the PD).
Quote from: Psicorp on March 30, 2007, 05:57:18 PM
That was the chart I was looking for, thank you sir. The Sortie Equivalency Chart says:
"Personnel serving in certain duty positions on training or actual missions may be given credit for participation in other areas towards renewal of their specialty qualifications. The following chart outlines the specialties that may be accepted as equivalent for renewal of specialty qualifications"
So it's for renewal only, not for initial.
Here is for the initial certification, CAPR 60-3, para. 2.3:
Once familiarization and preparatory training is completed, trainees must complete advanced training and participate satisfactorily in two missions before a CAPF 101 is approved and a member is considered "Qualified." Advanced training covers the remainder of the tasks required for specialty qualification. On actual missions, it is expected that these tasks could be accomplished by the trainee's supervisor or other fully trained members if they became critical. Because of this, trainees are allowed to learn these "on the job."
These two "missions" do not have to be on different mission numbers, be Air Force assigned or approved, or be completed after advanced training. These sorties must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of their assigned mission specialty. It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a given mission or day.
**************
As for UDF/GTM3, neither is a prerequisite for the other, and most of the tasks for each are different (there is some overlap), so getting one doesn't qualify a person in the other. But, as DNall said, getting GTM3 and UDF in a weekend is not difficult.
It is interesting and contradictory, that the sortie equivalency chart shows participation as any level GTM gives UDF renewal credit, and UDF participation gives renewal credit for any GTM level. The tasks are different between them. Some UDF tasks aren't covered by any GTM level, and some GTM tasks aren't covered by UDF.
I've attached a matrix showing which tasks are required for which GTM/GTL/UDF rating according to the current SQTRs.
Mike
Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 30, 2007, 05:53:38 PM
The explanation I got from the wing ES gurus is that UDF training actually constitutes the first part of the GTM curriculum. So a qualified GYM3 would, by that measure, automatically qualify for UDF.
Actually, there are quite a few tasks on UDF which are found elsewhere only on GTL, not any of the GTM SQTRs....which explains why a UDF person can lead a UDF team and a GTM can't. If you look at the charts, UDF has a few of the basic GTM tasks and a few of the basic GTL tasks.
At the same time, the UDF team is not considered qualified to go deep in the woods or be self-sufficient for any length of time.