NCO Insignia Placement on Winter Field Jacket

Started by AACScadet54, December 05, 2015, 08:45:24 AM

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AACScadet54

Hello all,
So I'm soon to head off to staff the Kansas Wing Training Group winter encampment, which is bitterly cold. 
I graduated there as a basic last year, and I wore a M65 field jacket.  As a basic student, and a Cadet Senior Airman, I wasn't familiar with the regulations for insignia placement on a field jacket, so I just wore my wing patch, name tape, and CAP tape, and no one cared---because I was a basic and it wasn't a big deal to be missing insignia from outerwear.
This year I have a much higher position in the encampment, and I want to set a very good example with my uniform wear.  All that said, I am unclear about what CAPM 39-1 regulates for the wear of the M65 field jacket as far a NCO insignia is concerned.  The exact wording from the manual is:

"6.1.9.2.2. Cadet Rank Insignia. Cadet officers will wear regular or miniature
embroidered rank insignia on ultramarine background on the epaulet. Cadet NCOs and Airmen will wear
metal chevrons on the coat collar.
Cadet airmen basic wear no collar insignia." 

What I deduce from this is that NCO insignia will be worn on the field jacket collar in the same manner as they are worn on a BDU blouse, but my M65 field jacket obviously does not have the same type of collar as a BDU blouse.  On the collar there are button holes, velcro fasteners, and the hood compartment zipper. 
This would make it difficult to pin on NCO insignia, not to mention that the jacket is designed to be zipped all the way to the top in turtleneck fashion, and if NCO insignia were to be worn in the way describer above, they would be turned inside and the frogs (pin holders) exposed on the outside when the neck is zipped to the top. 
In the off chance my M65 isn't actually an M65, below is a link of what I have.  Note the collar is zipped all the way up. 
Any advice is greatly appreciated. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjVobKxqcTJAhXSo4MKHbNeAQkQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbattleboysurplus.3dcartstores.com%2FAMERICAN-MADE-ALPHA-BRAND-M-65-FIELD-JACKET-WOODLANDBDU_p_220.html&bvm=bv.108538919,d.amc&psig=AFQjCNH1q9Iyivp8tRaC-l2vzTCx9srUsw&ust=1449391265023156

Garibaldi

This is novel...a cadet asking for clarification AFTER reading the manual. Very refreshing.

To answer, I hope, when you zip the coat up, the expectation is to fold the collar down. We all know that's not always feasible, as weather conditions can and will change quickly, necessitating pulling the collar up for comfort and pulling out the hood from the zippered compartment. Grade insignia is worn on the folded down collar, but it should be removed before turning the collar up. IMO, putting grade on the collar is silly, because of that very reason. I've never had a cadet NCO wear their grade on the field jacket. Officers usually do because they can sew their insignia on the epaulet. Take a spare set along, keep them in a pocket, and if someone says put them on, do so in the manner prescribed. If not, don't sweat it.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Luis R. Ramos

It looks like that is exactly what they are saying.

See page 33 http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/u_082203102943.pdf

On the left photo, a Captain. On the right, a cadet NCO. See the cadet collar is turned down but as you say, when it is zipped up the chevrons will face the wrong way. In.

Why was this done this way? ???

Options? Remove the chevrons before zipping up, place them the other way... Then remove them again when zipping it down... Impractical? Maybe...

Submit changes through the chain of command...
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

AACScadet54

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 05, 2015, 01:53:45 PM
This is novel...a cadet asking for clarification AFTER reading the manual. Very refreshing.

To answer, I hope, when you zip the coat up, the expectation is to fold the collar down. We all know that's not always feasible, as weather conditions can and will change quickly, necessitating pulling the collar up for comfort and pulling out the hood from the zippered compartment. Grade insignia is worn on the folded down collar, but it should be removed before turning the collar up. IMO, putting grade on the collar is silly, because of that very reason. I've never had a cadet NCO wear their grade on the field jacket. Officers usually do because they can sew their insignia on the epaulet. Take a spare set along, keep them in a pocket, and if someone says put them on, do so in the manner prescribed. If not, don't sweat it.

Yeah I noticed the rarity of NCO insignia on the field jacket when the only picture of it I could find after over an hour of search on the internet was in the outdated 39-1.
Thanks for the advice, I'll take an extra set if insignia for my jacket just in case. 

Sapper168

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 05, 2015, 02:05:09 PM
It looks like that is exactly what they are saying.

See page 33 http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/u_082203102943.pdf

On the left photo, a Captain. On the right, a cadet NCO. See the cadet collar is turned down but as you say, when it is zipped up the chevrons will face the wrong way. In.

Why was this done this way? ???

Options? Remove the chevrons before zipping up, place them the other way... Then remove them again when zipping it down... Impractical? Maybe...

Submit changes through the chain of command...

There is no photo, only a graphic.  You linked the old version of the 39-1.   It should be this link.    http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf
Shane E Guernsey, TSgt, CAP
CAP Squadron ESO... "Who did what now?"
CAP Squadron NCO Advisor... "Where is the coffee located?"
US Army 12B... "Sappers Lead the Way!"
US Army Reserve 71L-f5... "Going Postal!"

winterg

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 05, 2015, 02:05:09 PM
It looks like that is exactly what they are saying.

See page 33 http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/u_082203102943.pdf

On the left photo, a Captain. On the right, a cadet NCO. See the cadet collar is turned down but as you say, when it is zipped up the chevrons will face the wrong way. In.

Why was this done this way? ???

Options? Remove the chevrons before zipping up, place them the other way... Then remove them again when zipping it down... Impractical? Maybe...

Submit changes through the chain of command...
If they put the rank on the outside of the collar when zipped up, they would be wearing it in violation of the regulation. We can't make things up because the prescribed wear of the uniform is inconvenient. This is how we get 1000 different local wear policies not supported by the regs. 

Somehow I survived Maine winters as a cadet nco without the rank pinned to the collar of my field jacket being an issue. :D

Garibaldi

This is dependent on people actually sewing insignia on the field jacket, like their name tapes and CAP tapes. In our unit, unless you purchase one, we will issue them on an as-needed basis, to be returned at the conclusion of the activity. Too many have gone missing over the years, and we find this system works better. I don't ever recall any cadets having NCO grade insignia on their jackets ever. 'Tis a silly thing, IMO.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things