ABU = Equine Corpse

[lordmonar]

You know...I work on an Air Force Base with a bunch of Air Force types....I read the AF times....I get the Chieif of Staff and CMSAF e-mails.......As far as I know....no matter what the Army may be doing........I don't see the ABU as "in flux".

As your original post said.....the USAF spent $3M on the ABU's......they are closing units, the T-birds are gounded, the USAF Weapons School is canceling Top Gun classes....most exercises are cancelled......air shows and demo flights are canceled.

I don't see the USAF bringing out new uniforms anytime soon.

Unless they just use the Marpat design. Airman pay for their uniforms correct?

All the web gear, body armor, and everything else has to be replaced too.

And not....airman get a clothing allowance to replace clothing as it is used up.

[Eclipse]

I don't necessarily disagree, but then again, so is wearing camouflage for SAR missions or having a selection of "uniforms".

One of the complaints against the ABU is it does not hide the wearer in any environment, so replacing the bdu with the abu would actually make the wearers more visible. 
[/quote]

Heh.  Good point.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't understand why some people make such a big deal about the ABU and are constantly asking when CAP is getting it. It doesn't add anything to our current missions. The only benefit may be improved availability. Changing to ABUs (or any other future Air Force uniform) just means spending more money upgrading to that uniform. If we want to replace the BDU, I say we either go to the BBDUs as our only utility uniform or design a distinctive uniform suitable for CAP missions. From a practical sense, the BDU was never appropriate for what we do in CAP and neither is the ABU.

As has been discussed here a thousand million times (it seems), from the standpoint of representing the Air Force (which is a big motivator/retention item for cadets in particular), the USAF Auxiliary going *away* from a USAF uniform is counter-intuitive.

[EDIT: Replaced "bit" with "big" ... Typing too fast -NIN]

I understand that some, especially cadets, want to wear the current Air Force utility uniform; I felt the same way when I was a cadet and was very excited when we were finally allowed to wear BDUs. But being the USAF Auxiliary, while part of our heritage and identity, it's only a small part of who we are as an organization. Besides, the Air Force-style service uniform already represents our heritage as the USAF Auxiliary. The utility uniform should be practical and reflect the reality of our missions.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In that case we should get ACUs...

[Storm Chaser]

One of the complaints against the ABU is it does not hide the wearer in any environment, so replacing the bdu with the abu would actually make the wearers more visible. 

Except that the minute the Air Force goes to something else, many in CAP will be asking when we will also adopt the 'new' uniform.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

"We've got a special man in the audience today, right now. It's Mr. Leo. He's a fashion consultant for the Army. "Oh, thank you, Adrian. I'm just very happy to be here. I want to tell you something. You know. This whole camouflage thing doesn't work very well." Why is that? "Because you go in the jungle, I can't see you. You know, it's like wearing stripes and plaid. For me, I want something different. You know, you go in the jungle, make a statement. If you're going to fight, clash!""

Can't find the icon for coffee spraying out of my nose.

Credit to A1C Adrian Cronauer (Robin Williams)

[Ned]

I understand that some, especially cadets, want to wear the current Air Force utility uniform; I felt the same way when I was a cadet and was very excited when we were finally allowed to wear BDUs.

And it was not just you, I suspect, since every single cadet since WWII has worn the current AF utility uniform until now (with some transition periods).

And your reaction -- strong affinity with the Air Force based in part on the uniform -- is critical to our successful cadet program, as it has been for over 50 years. 

But being the USAF Auxiliary, while part of our heritage and identity, it's only a small part of who we are as an organization.

Really?  What makes you say that?

The fact that 90% of our funding comes through the Air Force?

The fact that most CAP members particpate in or directly support our cadet program (which requires USAF style uniforms for all cadets not constrained by height/weight)?

The fact that the Secretary of the Air Force directly or jointly appoints nearly two-thirds of the Board of Governors?

The fact that the USAF generously provides buildings and support for our professional staff that we could never afford in the private sector? 

The fact that the great majority of our saves every year occur on Air Force assigned missions?

I would have thought that the AF is a huge part of what we are and what we do.  What am I missing?

Besides, the Air Force-style service uniform already represents our heritage as the USAF Auxiliary. The utility uniform should be practical and reflect the reality of our missions.

I have good news!  The utility uniform is already practical and reflects the reality of our missions.  (All of them.)  And because of that thousands of members do not need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars each to change to some other uniform.  Which they appreciate.

Thank you for your continued service to CAP and our cadets.  I genuinely appreciate it.

Ned Lee

[That Anonymous Guy]

You know...I work on an Air Force Base with a bunch of Air Force types....I read the AF times....I get the Chieif of Staff and CMSAF e-mails.......As far as I know....no matter what the Army may be doing........I don't see the ABU as "in flux".

As your original post said.....the USAF spent $3M on the ABU's......they are closing units, the T-birds are gounded, the USAF Weapons School is canceling Top Gun classes....most exercises are cancelled......air shows and demo flights are canceled.

I don't see the USAF bringing out new uniforms anytime soon.

Unless they just use the Marpat design. Airman pay for their uniforms correct?

All the web gear, body armor, and everything else has to be replaced too.

And not....airman get a clothing allowance to replace clothing as it is used up.

But they get the same clothing allowance regardless correct? And replacing the Air Force's web gear, ect. wouldn't be nearly as expensive as the Army's.

[abdsp51]

But they get the same clothing allowance regardless correct? And replacing he Air Forces web gear, ect. wouldn't be nearly as expensive as the Army's.
[/quote]

Wanna bet?   

[That Anonymous Guy]

Sure, the Arny infantry is a much more sizable force then Air Force Security Forces.

[Storm Chaser]

But being the USAF Auxiliary, while part of our heritage and identity, it's only a small part of who we are as an organization.

Really?  What makes you say that?

The fact that 90% of our funding comes through the Air Force?

The fact that most CAP members particpate in or directly support our cadet program (which requires USAF style uniforms for all cadets not constrained by height/weight)?

The fact that the Secretary of the Air Force directly or jointly appoints nearly two-thirds of the Board of Governors?

The fact that the USAF generously provides buildings and support for our professional staff that we could never afford in the private sector? 

The fact that the great majority of our saves every year occur on Air Force assigned missions?

I was referring to the following:

Title 10 USC § 9442

The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.

AFPD 10-27

CAP is an auxiliary of the Air Force when it assists the Air Force or any Federal agency in fulfilling its non-combat programs and missions.

AFI 10-2701

Title 10, USC § 9442 identifies CAP as an auxiliary of the Air Force when carrying out a mission assigned by the SECAF to provide services to any department or agency in any branch of the Federal government, including the Air Force. CAP is deemed to be an instrumentality of the United States while carrying out missions assigned by the Secretary.

It seems clear to me that CAP is the USAF Auxiliary when conducting missions for the Air Force or other federal agencies. While we definitely do a lot of that, that is not all we do or even the day-to-day operations of every CAP unit.

I would have thought that the AF is a huge part of what we are and what we do.  What am I missing?

I agree that the Air Force is a "huge part of what we are..." [sic], but we are not the Air Force. Besides, the current utility uniform, which is not an Air Force uniform anymore, doesn't make us any less Auxiliary of the Air Force for wearing it.

Besides, the Air Force-style service uniform already represents our heritage as the USAF Auxiliary. The utility uniform should be practical and reflect the reality of our missions.

I have good news!  The utility uniform is already practical and reflects the reality of our missions.  (All of them.)

Please explain to me how a camouflage uniform is "already practical" for ground search and rescue operations.

And because of that thousands of members do not need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars each to change to some other uniform.  Which they appreciate.

Actually, if we adopt the ABUs, "thousands of members" WILL "need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars each to change to some other uniform."

Thank you for your continued service to CAP and our cadets.  I genuinely appreciate it.

Ned Lee

Sir, I appreciate your contribution and service as well. We can agree to disagree in some areas, but I still respect your opinion. Best regards!

[AALTIS]

The good news is that our local JROTC units have started to change to ABUs.  So instead of throwing away all their BDUs, they gave them to our squadron.  We were able to get several dozen sets + some boots!

[Ned]

I was referring to the following:

Title 10 USC § 9442

The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.

AFPD 10-27

CAP is an auxiliary of the Air Force when it assists the Air Force or any Federal agency in fulfilling its non-combat programs and missions.

AFI 10-2701

Title 10, USC § 9442 identifies CAP as an auxiliary of the Air Force when carrying out a mission assigned by the SECAF to provide services to any department or agency in any branch of the Federal government, including the Air Force. CAP is deemed to be an instrumentality of the United States while carrying out missions assigned by the Secretary.

It seems clear to me that CAP is the USAF Auxiliary when conducting missions for the Air Force or other federal agencies. While we definitely do a lot of that, that is not all we do or even the day-to-day operations of every CAP unit.

I can only agree that current law only assignes us auxiliary status for FTCA and FECA purposes during AFAMs.  But that has little or nothing to do with our Air Force affiliation the other 99% of the time. 

Why are you are distinguishing our overall Air Force affiliation from the times actually spent on AFAM?

Are you suggesting that because cadets are not on an AFAM at a given moment that they have no affiliation with the Air Force and should therefore not wear any USAF style uniforms?

I'm a little confused.  Why would that make a difference from a uniform standpoint?  Help me to understand your point.

I agree that the Air Force is a "huge part of what we are..." [sic], but we are not the Air Force.

True enough.  They haven't been around as long as we have.  But I think they are doing OK.   

Besides, the current utility uniform, which is not an Air Force uniform anymore, doesn't make us any less Auxiliary of the Air Force for wearing it.

To a degree, of course it does.  By your logic we could have our cadets wear t-shirts and shorts full time in our cadet program.  "T-shirts and jeans don't make us any less Auxiliary of the Air Force."

That's a lawyer's argument, my friend.  But the simple truth is that the further we distance ourselves from USAF style uniforms, the less successful we will be because the USAF-style uniforms are a tool that we use to accomplish our missions.  All of our missions, including our cadet program mission.

And the less Air Force affiliated our cadet program becomes, the less successful it will be.

The Army cadets wear ACUs, the Sea Cadets wear USN style utilities, and we wear AF-style utilities.  That has been our doctrine for over a half-century.  If you think that moving away from USAF-style utilities will measurably assist us in getting our missions accomplished, you will need to make a case for it.  If indeed we can better accomplish our missions, then we can and should alter our uniforms.

But first things first.  Please show us how changing our uniforms will make us measureably more effective in ES, AE, or CP.

Please explain to me how a camouflage uniform is "already practical" for ground search and rescue operations.

(Laying aside for the moment the fact that ES is only one of our missions, and even within the world of ES only a fairly small minority of our membership participates in ground search and rescue in any given year.)

You mean other than the fact that we have saved hundreds of lives while wearing BDUs in a ground SAR environment over the last several decades?

I submit that they have proven their practicality in exactly the conditions that we work in.

Can you point out one or more incidents where we failed in our missions because some of the members wore BDUs?  Have there been any civilians or members injured or killed because some GTMs were wearing BDUs?

(One of my jobs is to monitor and oversee things like safety and legal.  I do not recall any such incidents.)

And because of that thousands of members do not need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars each to change to some other uniform.  Which they appreciate.

Actually, if we adopt the ABUs, "thousands of members" WILL "need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars each to change to some other uniform."

Almost certainly not.  We have done this before, of course, and managed the process with long transition / "wear-out" dates.  Arguably we could do that while forcing everyone into some other uniform as well.  If I missed that in your suggestion, I apologize.

[NIN]

And because of that thousands of members do not need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars each to change to some other uniform.  Which they appreciate.

Actually, if we adopt the ABUs, "thousands of members" WILL "need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars each to change to some other uniform."

Almost certainly not.  We have done this before, of course, and managed the process with long transition / "wear-out" dates.  Arguably we could do that while forcing everyone into some other uniform as well.  If I missed that in your suggestion, I apologize.

When it comes, the transition to ABUs will be probably only slightly faster than the move from the Pickle Suit to BDUs.

And by that I mean "nearly instantaneous."

There was a great gnashing of teeth over the "phase in period" between green fatigues and BDUs.  Many folks (I suppose me included, but I can't precisely recall..<GRIN>) were up in arms over the fact that we'd have formations that would be "salt & pepper" of BDUs and fatigues.

What actually wound up happening was about 98.5% of the people who could get BDUs went and got them instantly.  Entire formations of cadets at encampment that summer were completely in BDUs.  I recall going to encampment that year and stunned that out of about 200 cadets, we had like 2 in fatigues.

I'm reasonably certain that the entire organization was in BDUs a solid year before the wear out date, and there were the occasional hold outs who wore fatigues "just to be different."

[Eclipse]

You mean other than the fact that we have saved hundreds of lives while wearing BDUs in a ground SAR environment over the last several decades?

I submit that they have proven their practicality in exactly the conditions that we work in.

Can you point out one or more incidents where we failed in our missions because some of the members wore BDUs?  Have there been any civilians or members injured or killed because some GTMs were wearing BDUs?

Being successful despite a major impediment doesn't mean things couldn't be better or easier - for example, if we were wearing uniforms actually designed for SAR, instead of escape and evasion, we wouldn't need to wear a vest over them.

CAP does a lot of things on a shoestring budget, with poor or last minute planning, and with one hand tied in front of its eyes, that doesn't make it right.  Further, CAP likes to make
a lot of hay about "best practices", yet generally ignores common sense answers to easily fixed problems.

Have there been any civilians or members injured or killed because some GTMs were wearing BDUs?

(One of my jobs is to monitor and oversee things like safety and legal.  I do not recall any such incidents.)

Has lack of visibility of the uniform ever been raised as a safety issue?

[NIN]

Nevermind that a study of the efficacy of the woodland BDUs conducted in the 1980s (way, way before the current set of digital claptrap we have now) determined that at ranges greater than 100m, "the woodland camouflage uniform just becomes a green suit." (I'm paraphrasing there, as its been a LONG time since I read that article, but that was the essential sentiment)

[Eclipse]

Nevermind that a study of the efficacy of the woodland BDUs conducted in the 1980s (way, way before the current set of digital claptrap we have now) determined that at ranges greater than 100m, "the woodland camouflage uniform just becomes a green suit." (I'm paraphrasing there, as its been a LONG time since I read that article, but that was the essential sentiment)

Woodland is an amazing pattern.

The combat guys hate it because the camouflage works too poorly.

SAR guys hate it because the camouflage works too well.

Basically the perfect garment.

[Devil Doc]

So we cant ask the Commander about ACUs or ABUs anymore? 

[PHall]

So we cant ask the Commander about ACUs or ABUs anymore? 

Only if you want a nasty phone call from your Commander after they get their nasty phone call from their Commander.
You're at the bottom of the food chain....

[Peeka]

Whatever they decide, I just hope they don't decide to use the BBDUs as the main uniform.