Errors, Ambiguities & Conflicts in CAPM 39-1

[LittleIronPilot]

Give definitive guidance on all the crap that Hawk mountain gives out. I don't mind the LL patch at all, as a matter of fact I like it, but there should be instructions on where to place it. The Ranger Tabs: Personally i don't care. The orange T-shirt: BAN IT! Orange Hat: Let them keep it for OPs only, but reiterate the standing ban on "ranger rolls" and explain better what a "ranger roll" is. While you're at it give guidance on NCSA Blue Berets. I'm for letting them wear it since in INWG GTM3 qualed people can wear one for ES and I kinda like mine.

I say....

1) Change 39-1 and the 60 series to include the Ranger tab.

2) Do away with the orange shirt or hat except at the ranger school.

3) Have a sit down with the "powers that be" and explain why, IN THE FIELD, a "ranger roll" is far more approrpiate than a garrison style, Castro looking cap. (I spent six years in Airborne, LRS, and even SF units...if you wore the cap you wore it crushed to the head...it presented less of a "catch" when going through trees. We are going into the woods correct?

4) Blue berets? I have no thoughts on them, though I like berets...than again I wore them most of my military career.

[cnitas]

A 'ranger roll' or 'dog dish' is different than 'crushed to the head' in field ops.

[mikeylikey]

I say....

1) Change 39-1 and the 60 series to include the Ranger tab.

2) Do away with the orange shirt or hat except at the ranger school.

3) Have a sit down with the "powers that be" and explain why, IN THE FIELD, a "ranger roll" is far more appropriate than a garrison style, Castro looking cap. (I spent six years in Airborne, LRS, and even SF units...if you wore the cap you wore it crushed to the head...it presented less of a "catch" when going through trees. We are going into the woods correct?

4) Blue berets? I have no thoughts on them, though I like berets...than again I wore them most of my military career.

My Responses.....

#1) No!  Lets get away from more badges/tabs/bling.  Last I looked the AF peeps don't wear "ranger" anything! 

#2) Why does Hawk need an Orange shirt?  Why does anyone?  They are already a no-go in the regs!  Black or Brown are enough choices!  Heck, the orange shirts were freaking photoshopped out of every single Katrina Picture that went through NHQ, by NHQ!  So that must mean something right?  The only reason to keep them is to make the wearer DIFFRENT from everyone else!  As far as HATS go, Negative guy, no more colored hats anywhere!  The AF just released guidance on it for themselves, and the only ones allowed to wear colored hats in the AF starting (I think in 6 months) will be REDHORSE Squadrons. 

#3)  What?!?!  That is the most pitiful reasoning for wanting to wear a "ranger roll".  If your hat is getting caught on tree branches, duck a little lower!  PLUS shouldn't you be wearing a HARD-HAT out on ES missions anyway??

#4) I agree with you on this one.  However, a NCSA patch will suffice instead of a beret.

[LittleIronPilot]

My Responses.....

#1) No!  Lets get away from more badges/tabs/bling.  Last I looked the AF peeps don't wear "ranger" anything! 

#2) Why does Hawk need an Orange shirt?  Why does anyone?  They are already a no-go in the regs!  Black or Brown are enough choices!  Heck, the orange shirts were freaking photoshopped out of every single Katrina Picture that went through NHQ, by NHQ!  So that must mean something right?  The only reason to keep them is to make the wearer DIFFRENT from everyone else!  As far as HATS go, Negative guy, no more colored hats anywhere!  The AF just released guidance on it for themselves, and the only ones allowed to wear colored hats in the AF starting (I think in 6 months) will be REDHORSE Squadrons. 

#3)  What?!?!  That is the most pitiful reasoning for wanting to wear a "ranger roll".  If your hat is getting caught on tree branches, duck a little lower!  PLUS shouldn't you be wearing a HARD-HAT out on ES missions anyway??

#4) I agree with you on this one.  However, a NCSA patch will suffice instead of a beret.

1) We are AF-lite, remember that. We do not have to be 100% Air Force. Besides, unless things changed, Combat Controllers, PJ's and others CAN wear the Ranger or Special Forces tab if they earned it (again this may have changed).

2) Agreed.

3) Give it a rest, some people like a crushed hat, some do not. I, for one, would prefer to not look like Castro or some garrison-monkey, however until the regs change I will follow them.

4) Again...agreed.

[jason.pennington]

My pet peeve.

We can wear rank on BBDU hats, and BDU hats but not organizational ball caps.   The USAF does let's follow suit.

I have a really good idea on how to eliminate 98% of the problems.

Step 1.  Change all our specialty badges to something that looks more USAFish.
Step 2.  Us AFI 36-2903 as our primary source of uniform wear information.
Step 3.  Write a simple supplement (or better yet get the USAF to reserve a whole chapter) stating the difference between USAF rules and CAP rules.

When I was a commander, I called NHQ and was told that wearing of rank on organizational ballcaps was up to the commander.  The color, style, and design were all up to the commander.  Maybe that has changed, not sure.

[jason.pennington]

How about all additions or changes to 39-1 by local commanders have to be approved by Wing CC, and Region CC.  Then sent to the National Historian.

Commanders can create local supplements to the 39-1M.  The supplements can not change the 39-1M or allow for something specifically not allowed.  If you have to wait for a Wing CC to approve a local supplement, that could take forever, and I am sure the Wing or Region CC's do not want to have to do it!

[mikeylikey]

3) Give it a rest, some people like a crushed hat, some do not. I, for one, would prefer to not look like Castro or some garrison-monkey, however until the regs change I will follow them.

Crushed is different than "ranger rolled".  Plus, our current BDU Hats are not of the same design that were worn during the 50's-60's.  They do not look anything like what the Cuban military wears.

[Hawk200]

3) Give it a rest, some people like a crushed hat, some do not. I, for one, would prefer to not look like Castro or some garrison-monkey, however until the regs change I will follow them.

Crushed is different than "ranger rolled".  Plus, our current BDU Hats are not of the same design that were worn during the 50's-60's.  They do not look anything like what the Cuban military wears.

Agree on the "rolled" versus "crushed".

Bit of history on the Ridgeway cap: http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_clothing_m1951_cap_ridgeway.php

Castro pretty much adopted it as an affectation. Their military wears it as well. The irony is that it was a US Army headgear first, and we ceased wearing it because Castro wore one.

[mikeylikey]

Something I would like to see in 39-1 are black and white pictures!  Lets ditch taking pictures of people, and just have drawn pics. 

Unless....the Pics are of Pylon, then I guess it wouldn't be that bad   

[LittleIronPilot]

3) Give it a rest, some people like a crushed hat, some do not. I, for one, would prefer to not look like Castro or some garrison-monkey, however until the regs change I will follow them.

Crushed is different than "ranger rolled".  Plus, our current BDU Hats are not of the same design that were worn during the 50's-60's.  They do not look anything like what the Cuban military wears.

I can see where some see the difference, but crushed or "ranger roll" is fine with me personally. Again..I follow the regs, but I would be fine with either if they let us.

As for the Castro comment, lets just say that every time I see cap that is starched, or has brace in it, it looks really silly.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I resemble that remark!

WIWAC, I wore a Ridgeway back in the 60's.  And I was one cool cadet!

Check out www.myspace.com/Blaster1923 and view my pics!

[wacapgh]

Figure 2-26, Note 4 and Figure 2-28, Note 4 read:
"CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander.
The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be
prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above
visor."

Table 2-3 Line 6 has an additional restriction:

"Color, unit designation, and cloth or silk screen organizational emblem or badge as prescribed by unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor. No other features such as stars, designs, individual's name and so forth, are authorized."

The same text should be used whenever the "CAP Baseball Cap" is defined.

[JayT]

I think my biggest problem with 39-1 is that you can clearly tell the difference between the sections lifted wholesale from the AF Uniform Manual and the sections written for CAP Distintive Uniforms. There definately wasn't as much care done. I've have SMs argue with me over those blank shoulder marks, saying that just because they're not suppose to be worn with the AF tyle uniforms, doesn't mean they can't be worn with the Corporate style.

Other then that, I think a lot of this discussion is sort of either 'Well, if it doesn't say it, that means we can do it' or 'I'm sad because I can't do what I want."

Take the 'dog dishing' of the patrol cap. 39-1 says pretty clearly that the cap is to be worn square on the head. How do people interperte this as 'I'm going to dog dish my hat so it barely sits on my head and a light breeze wll blow it off' is beyond me. Some people also get confused between rumours and facts. I remember when I was a C/TSgt being told that I had to wear ribbons, because no ribbons was for Cadet Officers only.

Actually, on relfect, one thing that always confuses me is the placementof badges on BDUs. Is it half inch white to white or blue to blue?

[arajca]

Actually, on relfect, one thing that always confuses me is the placementof badges on BDUs. Is it half inch white to white or blue to blue?

Half inch white-to-white, except for immediately above the "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape. That one is one-half inch blue-to-white.

[Hawk200]

I think my biggest problem with 39-1 is that you can clearly tell the difference between the sections lifted wholesale from the AF Uniform Manual and the sections written for CAP Distintive Uniforms. There definately wasn't as much care done. I've have SMs argue with me over those blank shoulder marks, saying that just because they're not suppose to be worn with the AF tyle uniforms, doesn't mean they can't be worn with the Corporate style.

It still amazes me that people want to wear something blank. Why would you want to go spend money on an item that, by itself, indicates nothing?

Other then that, I think a lot of this discussion is sort of either 'Well, if it doesn't say it, that means we can do it' or 'I'm sad because I can't do what I want."

I'd put the "applause" icon up but it's broken.

I remember when I was a C/TSgt being told that I had to wear ribbons, because no ribbons was for Cadet Officers only.

This seems to fall in line with the same reasoning that only staff people can wear black T-shirts. I threw a monkey wrench in that one by wearing my brown ones. Even wore brown my last few years in the Air Force, and the brief time in the Air Guard. People are still puzzled about it, but they can't really say much.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Actually, on relfect, one thing that always confuses me is the placementof badges on BDUs. Is it half inch white to white or blue to blue?

Half inch white-to-white, except for immediately above the "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape. That one is one-half inch blue-to-white.

Yes, and 7/8 inch from the nametape's blue to the blue of the badge above. (1/8" inch blue around all badges and rank insignia, measured from the widest and tallest parts of the insignia.)

[arajca]

Actually, on relfect, one thing that always confuses me is the placementof badges on BDUs. Is it half inch white to white or blue to blue?

Half inch white-to-white, except for immediately above the "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape. That one is one-half inch blue-to-white.

Yes, and 7/8 inch from the nametape's blue to the blue of the badge above. (1/8" inch blue around all badges and rank insignia, measured from the widest and tallest parts of the insignia.)

7/8!? How do you get that?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

1) We are AF-lite, remember that. We do not have to be 100% Air Force. Besides, unless things changed, Combat Controllers, PJ's and others CAN wear the Ranger or Special Forces tab if they earned it (again this may have changed).

I resent the idea that we're "Air Force lite." That is the same mentality that excuses us from the things that the Air Force gets upset at us for blowing off. When we wear the uniform, we act accordingly and perform professionally -- that's what gets us the respect of the mother organization. The mentality CAP should have on the uniform is that we wear the Air Force uniform with insignia that indicates we're CAP members and not "real" Air Force personnel -- not that we're CAP members and we can wear whatever CAP lets us get by with, add or change.

That said, CCs wear the tabs on their shoulders over the patch of the Army unit with whom they're assigned because they're assigned there, and the Air Force allows it since the Airman is a member of that Army unit.

On the blank SM epaulets and someone's comment that "why would you want to go spend money on an item that, by itself, indicates nothing?" I disagree. The blank epaulets identify a senior member without grade as a CAP member. That by itself is notable.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

7/8!? How do you get that?

Do the math: 1" from the insignia white to wherever you're measuring from -- which means that if you allow the regulation 1/8" blue field around the insignia, you're actually measuring 7/8" from the edge of the blue to the point you're measuring from. Make sense now?

[JayT]

....Yes,  the fact that they are senior members is notable. But the fact they're wearing blank shoulder marks that were intended to have something placed upon them is wrong...