Errors, Ambiguities & Conflicts in CAPM 39-1

[JohnKachenmeister]

"Patent leather pumps..." come in a male version?  Since the Clinton Administration, perhaps?

Yep, they sure do... they're called 'opera pumps' 



About the only time you might see that kind of shoe style is for white tie occasions.

In the Army you could get beat up for wearing a shoe like that!

[RiverAux]

Incidentally, in regards to the ability of unit commander to authorize their own special ball caps.... That needs to be clarified that such authorizations must be in a properly reviewed squadron operating instruction or wing supplement.  No verbal authorizations.

[mikeylikey]

How about all additions or changes to 39-1 by local commanders have to be approved by Wing CC, and Region CC.  Then sent to the National Historian.

[davedove]

From figure 2-17:

"Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear the 3-, 3 1/2-, or 4-inch (women) or 4-inch (men) sleeve chevrons centered halfway between shoulder seam and elbow when bent at 90-degree angle on the sleeve."

Note that this does not specify regular or subdued.  It should be specified.

I noticed this because we had this question at our squadron.

[RogueLeader]

I believe that follows from AF- the Full color on blues, and Subdued on BDU's.  IIRC, the BBDU's use the full color as well.  I know thats what I have seen.

[davedove]

I believe that follows from AF- the Full color on blues, and Subdued on BDU's.  IIRC, the BBDU's use the full color as well.  I know thats what I have seen.

Actually, our Commander called National and was told the full colored stripes should be used on the BDU's, not the subdues.

Still, this shows that it should be specified in 39-1.

[Hawk200]

Actually, our Commander called National and was told the full colored stripes should be used on the BDU's, not the subdues.

Still, this shows that it should be specified in 39-1.

Agreed. I remember California Wing used to mandate subdued in their uniform supplement. Some people might not even realize they were NCO's until they got close.

I would also suggest (if I haven't done so earlier in this thread) that we lose the CAP collar insignia for NCO's. It's unnecessary. Considering that we wear rank insignia on both sides now, it's pretty pointless. If a member has no rank, got no problems with it. But with stripes on the sleeve and collar insignia, it's just wierd.

Then again, I'd reorient the "CAP" to be worn on the collar for those without rank insignia. More like this:

          C
          A
          P

rather than this: CAP

It would align to the front of the collar like any set of bars would, and when you sew on LT bars, you wouldn't have any odd-ball stitching shadow that's oriented 90 degrees to it.

But to really make things easier, we could just eliminate it altogether.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I do not understand the previous post.

[mikeylikey]

^ The orientation of the CAP device or cloth is standardized the way it is so that if you were to button the shirt all the way up to your neck, when the collar pulls up, you still can read the "CAP" cutout or cloth.  It is throwback to before fatigues were worn.  Say "US" insignia on Officers Khaki shirts WW1-WW2, even before that.

End of history lesson

[Hawk200]

I do not understand the previous post.

OK. Current cutouts are on a horizontal plane, oriented on a collar in much the same way as a colonel's eagles would be. I would suggest orienting them on a vertical plane more like a lieutenants bar. That is if they weren't just canned altogether.

Clear as mud?

[SSgt Rudin]

1. SM NCO's are required to wear cloth CAP cutouts on both sides of the collar. Why? wearing full color chevrons on the BDU's already screams "Not Air Force"

2. SM NCO's are supposed to wear embroidered grey epaulets, however vanguard does not sell these and when I call all I get is:
VG: "those will be have to be custom ordered"
ME: "Ok... well... can I order a couple pairs?"
VG: "No, sorry they are sill in R&D"

R&D seriously? you take they gray cloth stick in in the machine and press the start button! how much research does that take?!? (sorry but its been almost 3 years now)

[mikeylikey]

here is one for the committee.....

Wings have as much authority to place patches on the left shoulder as they do to place them on the right knee.

Placement of special activity patches is prescribed by NHQ in 39-1. Changes to the regulation can only be made by NHQ. Additional authorizations may be made by subordinate units to be worn within that unit's AOR.

Take the placement of Patches and other items out of the hands of Commanders at any level when NHQ clearly tells Everyone where to place said patch or device!

[Hawk200]

Take the placement of Patches and other items out of the hands of Commanders at any level when NHQ clearly tells Everyone where to place said patch or device!

I'll second that one.

[davidsinn]

Give definitive guidance on all the crap that Hawk mountain gives out. I don't mind the LL patch at all, as a matter of fact I like it, but there should be instructions on where to place it. The Ranger Tabs: Personally i don't care. The orange T-shirt: BAN IT! Orange Hat: Let them keep it for OPs only, but reiterate the standing ban on "ranger rolls" and explain better what a "ranger roll" is. While you're at it give guidance on NCSA Blue Berets. I'm for letting them wear it since in INWG GTM3 qualed people can wear one for ES and I kinda like mine.

[mikeylikey]

Give definitive guidance on all the crap that Hawk mountain gives out. I don't mind the LL patch at all, as a matter of fact I like it, but there should be instructions on where to place it.

There are instructions on where to place it.  Reference the Interim Change Letter released, that moved it to the pocket.  I am surprised National lets HAWK folks get away with a blatant violation of 39-1.   

The Ranger Tabs: Personally i don't care.

Ummm......where are Ranger Tabs referenced in 39-1, or the 60 series?  Anyone??  Once again National letting Rangers do what they want.

The orange T-shirt: BAN IT!

Agreed!  It serves no purpose (can't really see it underneath the BDU shirt can you??  Also, if you can remember back to Katrina, National "photoshoped" the orange T-shirts of the PAWG ranger team there to black, so they could be included in PAO releases!  So basically, Brown or Black T-Shirts....right?? 

Orange Hat: Let them keep it for OPs only, but reiterate the standing ban on "ranger rolls" and explain better what a "ranger roll" is.

Can't agree less.  Get rid of the Orange Hat.  You are supposed to be wearing a hard-hat anyway!  I do agree with you on the "Ranger rolls".  If 39-1 says no......how can they allow it?  Once again, violation of 39-1, and HAWK doing whatever it wants!

While you're at it give guidance on NCSA Blue Berets. I'm for letting them wear it since in INWG GTM3 qualed people can wear one for ES and I kinda like mine.

So you take a test and are awarded the beret?  Wow.  I say let blue beret keep them (For wear at Blue BERET), but everywhere else....no way!

[pixelwonk]

I'm trying to create a list of all of the errors, perceived ambiguities, gray areas, contradictions and conflicts that CAPM 39-1, the CAP Uniform Manual, has within itself and with other CAP regulations.  Please help point these out to me so we can get them corrected.

This is not a wish list of uniform items you wish we had, or changes to our insignia you wish they'd make, but rather pointing out existing issues. There are a handful I'm already aware of and would like to ensure we get all of them.

P.S.: We know the photos are all, for the most part, bad examples.

ie: point out the discrepancies, not debate your personal cause.

FYI, there's still the 54 page of garbage uniforms thread for that. kthx.

[Tubacap]

One thing that would have saved me from some embarassment was a pictoral descrition of how to properly "roll" your sleeve on the BDU's.  I'm not sure if this will happen with ABU's or not, but I know that the Coast Guard has a great tutorial in the Reservist.

http://www.uscg.mil/reserve/magazine/mag2006/Special%20Issue%20Uniform/UniformIssue2.pdf

This might be something to consider that may help in making things more "uniform" across the nation.  We do not necessarily have the ability to have more senior giving proper uniform advise to their subordinates, even if the subordinate wants to be in the correct uniform.  Maybe part of the solution is to provide at the national level a section of the website with tutorial movies, .pdf's, or other things that would show various ways to put the "polish" on our uniforms.  Although this is separate from the manual, I think it deserves some consideration.

[SSgt Rudin]

1. SM NCO's are required to wear cloth CAP cutouts on both sides of the collar. Why? wearing full color chevrons on the BDU's already screams "Not Air Force"

2. SM NCO's are supposed to wear embroidered grey epaulets, however vanguard does not sell these and when I call all I get is:
VG: "those will be have to be custom ordered"
ME: "Ok... well... can I order a couple pairs?"
VG: "No, sorry they are sill in R&D"

R&D seriously? you take they gray cloth stick in in the machine and press the start button! how much research does that take?!? (sorry but its been almost 3 years now)

For the other NCO's out there, these are available via phone order now.

[tjaxe]

One thing that would have saved me from some embarassment was a pictoral descrition of how to properly "roll" your sleeve on the BDU's.  I'm not sure if this will happen with ABU's or not, but I know that the Coast Guard has a great tutorial in the Reservist.

http://www.uscg.mil/reserve/magazine/mag2006/Special%20Issue%20Uniform/UniformIssue2.pdf

This might be something to consider that may help in making things more "uniform" across the nation.  We do not necessarily have the ability to have more senior giving proper uniform advise to their subordinates, even if the subordinate wants to be in the correct uniform.  Maybe part of the solution is to provide at the national level a section of the website with tutorial movies, .pdf's, or other things that would show various ways to put the "polish" on our uniforms.  Although this is separate from the manual, I think it deserves some consideration.

I was at a loss for finding out how to wear things, or get them to look right too.  I didn't want to show up to my first meeting in BDUs looking like a clown so I did a search on YOU TUBE, in this particular case, on how to blouse trousers.  The video I found was great and YT may provide some other interesting "how to's" as well.  I do, however, think your idea of having one place with tutorial videos is great!

[BigMojo]

I was at a loss for finding out how to wear things, or get them to look right too.  I didn't want to show up to my first meeting in BDUs looking like a clown so I did a search on YOU TUBE, in this particular case, on how to blouse trousers.  The video I found was great and YT may provide some other interesting "how to's" as well.  I do, however, think your idea of having one place with tutorial videos is great!

ABSOLUTELY! Not everyone that joins up is a former cadet or former/active Military or LEO.