Multitude of Uniforms

Started by davedove, October 10, 2006, 05:21:30 PM

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SarDragon

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on October 20, 2006, 03:40:26 AM
The only argument that i can see coming to your point would be that we are not just a search and rescue unit.  If that was our point we would might as well combine forces with the local search and rescue unit and become one big group.  We have two other programs.  The Cadet Program, and Aerospace Education, that are both extremely tied to the Air Force.  while i agree with you that a uniform more suitable for search and rescue is necessary.  I don't think we will get away from the air force style uniforms any time soon.

I do however like your point about undershirts.  The local sheriff departments search and rescue shirts are very nice.  They make them in both cotton and a synthetic fiber, and in long sleeve and short.  They are blaze orange and have reflective lettering.  I do think that we should look into this.

That's a good point about the other missions, but how often will both combinations (orange shirt vs. camo shirt) be needed at the same time. That is specifically why CAWG has defined a GT uniform, in a supplement, that meets the needs defined above. (No cracks about its legality, please.)

In the prior supplement, it was the orange shirt and the camo BDU trousers. Now it's the orange shirt with BBDU trousers. It works well, looks good, and is comfortable. It is more functional than just an orange t-shirt, because there are times when long sleeves are needed, and a short sleeve version is also permitted.

So, to sum up - orange for GT events, and shirt matching the trousers for regular CP and AE events. (covers both flavors of BDUs)
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Chaplaindon

Cadet Jacobs, you are correct in saying, "... I don't think we will get away from the air force style uniforms any time soon." However, I believe that CAP can still wear an "air force STYLE uniform" where form follows function and where we are actually UNIFORM.

The 505/1505 (style) khaki uniform would reflect both an historic USAF uniform and the original CAP uniforms from WWII on through the 1960's.

It would look military/professional and at once be distinct from the USAF uniforms so as to make it clear that we are not the USAF (its occasional auxiliary, granted, but not the real-life air force).

Considering the wonderful advanced in textile technology (e.g. no-iron, stain resistant "Dress Dockers") a durable, comfortable and VERY easy care uniform could replace the blue suit and the whites and grays (how many different shades/cut/styles of gray trousers have you seen members wear to one function?).

For field use I would simply make a more rugged version of the khaki service uniform (perhaps actually BDU cut and plethora of pockets and sewn-on insignia) to be worn with bloused trousers and with an outer-wear-able bright undershirt for both visibility and functional comfort.

It would still be most certainly an "... air force style uniform ..." just one adapted for who CAP really is and what it really does. BDUs are designed for battlefield survival and tactical advantage, neither of which are issues faced by CAP members. We could support all three (3) of CAP's missions by having a distinct all-members uniform that represents who we are and supports those missions without silly jury-rigging (e.g. "orange hefty bags").

If people still want to wear the BDU, have them visit their local military recruiting office and sign up.

Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

flyguy06

Quote from: afgeo4 on October 12, 2006, 03:24:51 PM
Yes, but Navy people get paid and all the enlisted get allowances for all those combinations of uniforms.  We do not.

I strongly believe that this new alternate corporate uniform should be the standard.  In fact, (and I am former Air Force) I believe we should have just ONE dress uniform and that shis white shirt/blue pant combo should be it.  We should do away with the "USAF Style" uniform and the corporate uniform.  Grooming standards should be kept as is for ALL members.  That's not just for uniform wear, it's for a professional appearance in general.  This type of change would truly get us away from looking like a salad bar in formation and create a service identity which we haven't had since... well... WWII really.  A truly CAP uniform would help us out with service pride as well.  Maybe with recognition.  By the way, I am suggesting that the cadets (under 18) be allowed wear of this uniform as well.

I am also in favor of CAP switching to our current corporate utility uniform when BDU supplies fall due to USAF switching to ABU's.  Again, same reasons.

If you got rid of the military uniform, I believe your membership numbewrs would drop sifgnifigantly. Its sad to say but a lot of prople join CAP because of the military uniform.

Chris Jacobs

Quote from: flyguy06 on October 21, 2006, 02:06:21 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on October 12, 2006, 03:24:51 PM
Yes, but Navy people get paid and all the enlisted get allowances for all those combinations of uniforms.  We do not.

I strongly believe that this new alternate corporate uniform should be the standard.  In fact, (and I am former Air Force) I believe we should have just ONE dress uniform and that shis white shirt/blue pant combo should be it.  We should do away with the "USAF Style" uniform and the corporate uniform.  Grooming standards should be kept as is for ALL members.  That's not just for uniform wear, it's for a professional appearance in general.  This type of change would truly get us away from looking like a salad bar in formation and create a service identity which we haven't had since... well... WWII really.  A truly CAP uniform would help us out with service pride as well.  Maybe with recognition.  By the way, I am suggesting that the cadets (under 18) be allowed wear of this uniform as well.

I am also in favor of CAP switching to our current corporate utility uniform when BDU supplies fall due to USAF switching to ABU's.  Again, same reasons.

If you got rid of the military uniform, I believe your membership numbewrs would drop sifgnifigantly. Its sad to say but a lot of prople join CAP because of the military uniform.

I agree with this one.  I think that around 75% of my squadron joined CAP because of our interaction and similarity to the Air Force.  I think we as a whole organization need to stay uniform to the Air Force. 

But what about just making the coperate uniforms more suitable for SAR.  Why do we need dark blue field utilities.  Why not change the BBDU so that it is a better SAR uniform.  I think that would then give a very good combination of uniforms.  One field uniform for Air Force related activities (helping out the local unit, visiting an air base, or encampment.) and one set of uniforms for non Air force activities, mainly SAR based.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Chaplaindon

Chris, I would likely to gently suggest that you missed the point, by definition, but you also seem to reinforce a troubling suspicion I've had about many CAP members.

When you wrote,  "I think that would then give a very good combination of uniforms.  One field uniform for Air Force related activities (helping out the local unit, visiting an air base, or encampment.) and one set of uniforms for non Air force activities, mainly SAR based," you missed the point of a uniform.

If we have several so-called "uniforms" at an event, then we are by definition NOT UNIFORM. The clothing we wear then would just be "outfits" and not A UNIFORM. If uniformity in our CAP outfits is desireable, and I beleive that it is, then we should be uniform in them and not demonstrating the breadth of CAP outfits available.

I would not object to that UNIFORM being a variation on the USAF regalia (presuming that the USAF brass approved the CAP distinctive elements) insofar as ALL members regardless of age, height/weight proportions, and/or grooming standards could wear the USAF/CAP "outfits."

Considering such inclusiveness somewhat less likely than finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, we need to find an alternative; hence the all-CAP (however military-style/professional appearing) khaki service and operational dress.

All members could wear the uniform. We would thence be uniform.

It would eliminate useless squabbles betweeen NHQ and the Air Staff over uniform items. It would make CAP appear more cohesive (and might even promote some cohesiveness as opposed to the needless juxtaposition between members who can and choose to wear the USAF/CAP "blue suit" and those who cannot --due to arbitrary USAF regulations-- or elect not to for a variety of reasons).

As a chaplain I have been appalled at members (and especially senior cadets and adult "officers") who have openly criticized another member about their height/weight or choice of coffee as a beverage. Such conduct is childish regardless of the chronological age of the offender. Such conduct is devisive and discriminatory and has no place in CAP (or in our world as far as this chaplain is concerned.)

I want our uniforms to be uniform. Either the USAF needs to budge on their arbitrary standards or CAP needs to move toward its own uniformity in appearance.

Lastly, (at the risk of being devisive myself) I wonder (aloud, here) if such a move costs CAP members, perhaps it would also bring in new ones or recall older ones (who've left over name calling, etc.).

If the primary reason a person joins CAP is to wear the USAF uniform (its wearing NOT being definitively one of the three CAP missions as far as I recall) perhaps he or she have joined for the wrong reason -- or they've been misled when recruited. CAP should IMHO be about SERVICE to our Nation and our more local communities. That should be our hearald.

If a member has joined just to wear the USAF ble suit or strut about an airport in a "green-bag," they may want to reconsider the apporiateness of their membership.  Is it really worth all that money?

Ultimately, however, I'd like CAP to have greater uniformity in all aspects of its operation, from the clothing its members wear to the quality of its operations accross wing and region borders, and even to its necessary-evil politics.

Well, a chaplain can pray, can't he ...   :angel:


Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

capchiro

While uniformity is to be desired, I don't see where going to a khaki uniform would be beneficial.  I think a lot of people think of "Banana Republic" when they think khaki.  We are not Mexican Federales or South American dictators.  The Air Force has uniform style and colors.  Our program does require cadets to wear the basic blue Air Force uniform, which, for the most part they furnish.  Senior members have a plethora of uniforms to wear, some Air Force, some CAP distinctive.  Some expensive, some cheap.  We are a small force, less than 70,000 world wide.  I don't think the general public is too concerned about what we are wearing as long as it is neat and well presented and we are where we need to be and doing our job when it needs to be done.  Until the time that the Air Froce gives us a clothing allowance, I don't think we will be limited to one or two uniforms.  I also think it is more important to keep the cadets in uniforms they like and want to be in, unfortunately, military style.  If my cadets could do as they pleased, they would be in desert tan or digital camo right now.  They can't get close enough to the military to satisfy themselves.  Using Air Force uniforms for the cadets teaches them how to wear them and how to take care of them.  This makes life easier when they enlist, which is part of what we are all about.  As usual, JMHO
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Chaplaindon

Col Siegrist,

I take exception with several of the things you stated:

1.  "I think a lot of people think of "Banana Republic" when they think khaki.  We are not Mexican Federales or South American dictators." I should hope that when an officer (or CPO) of the USN, an officer of the USPHS, or NOAA wears a khaki uniform that "a lot of people" wouldn't misconstrue them for Federales or "Banana Republic" dictators. Khaki uniforms have been a US military staple for about 100 years.

I suggested khaki in the 505/1505 style due to its (a) military/professional style; (b) its ruggedness and now --with newer technology fabrics-- ease of care; (c) historical links with both CAP and the USAF until the 1970's; (d) its comfort; and (e) its distinctiveness from the existing USAF regalia so as to permit all members to wear it.

Effectively Denegrating the current US military khaki uniforms by comparison to illegitimate potetates who happen --only coincidentally-- to wear similar style/color uniform is unfair.

2. "Our program does require cadets to wear the basic blue Air Force uniform, which, for the most part they furnish. " ... only the basic service uniform is provided by the USAF and there's still the need to buy many additional items and uniforms. As for the regulation mandating the wear of the USAF uniform: if I am proposing a rewrite of CAPM 39-1 to add a UNIFORM, it would logically follow that regulations prescribing other uniforms would have to be changed likewise.

Perhaps there could be a good compromise. For cadet program --exclusive-- activities. Cadets (ONLY) could wear a USAF-funded, CAP-modified, USAF blue service uniform. However, for operational efficiency, during actual or training operational missions (i.e. SAR missions and exercises) ALL participating personnel would wear a UNIFORM CAP uniform. Officers (adults) would ONLY wear the khaki service uniform.

3.  "We are a small force, less than 70,000 world wide." 70,000 sounds pretty big to me ...

4.   "If my cadets could do as they pleased, they would be in desert tan or digital camo right now.  They can't get close enough to the military to satisfy themselves." Maybe that's why we have Officers (SM's) to temper that immature enthusiasm and guide it in appropriate directions. I would bet that there are cadets who like to have firearms in CAP, if they could too. I know I have "relieved" several cadets of large RAMBO-like "survival" knives that have no place at CAP actvities ... they are toys of fantasy, not operational tools. We also don't let them drive automobiles at functions either, although doubtless many would like to do that too. Hopefully your cadets cannot "do as they [please]" at CAP functions.

5.  "Using Air Force uniforms for the cadets teaches them how to wear them and how to take care of them.  This makes life easier when they enlist, which is part of what we are all about."[/i] I wasn't aware that "part of what we [CAP] is about is making life easier on people when/if they enlist in the armed services. Nor, was I aware that we are to even encourage enlistment. That is the job of recruiters, As a chaplain, I am a conscientious pacifist and will NOT encourage military service, however, neither will I in a blanket manner unilaterally oppose or denounce it. However, if this IS my duty as a CAP officer "what we are about" maybe I need to rethink my place in CAP.

The decision to join the military is both an honorable one and a courageous one. It is admirable and sadly (based upon our world situation) necessary in a tragic way. It is a decision with the weight of life and death and needs to be made in the most sober and deliberate manner. It needs to be made with mature judgement apart from any pressure or coersion.

It is not, IMHO, the job of CAP to glorify military service or to encourage "playing soldier" (airman, etc.) as a means of swelling the ranks of our armed forces by playing to the vanities or fantasies of 12-year-olds.
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

ZigZag911

Perhaps a compromise is in order.

For now, at least, cadets could continue to wear the USAF blue uniform.

Seniors should go to something else....I must admit I am not enthused about the new 'corporate' uniform....it seems to be pushing the envelope in terms of mimicking the USAF military uniform, with minor cosmetic changes....long run, this will not enhance our harmonious relationship with our parent service!

I can live with the gray & white...a more military style jacket, rather than a blue blazer, would be great!

I can also live with the khaki's suggested by the Chaplain...again, with some sort of (optional) jacket for more formal occasions.....I wonder what the US Navy will think of this???

For operations, our entire organization should transition to the navy blue BDUs, utility jumpsuit, or Nomex flightsuit.

I understand this will upset cadets....however, in view of the fact that many units use BDUs as 'uniform of the day', I think it is important to achieve a degree of uniformity where possible.

Chris Jacobs

I think if we are going to transition to the navy blue BDU's for all we should make the uniform more practical.  I know in the dense woods of Oregon the navy blue BDU is just as hard to see, if not harder, than the current BDU's.  I don't suggest a blaze orange BDU style uniform, but something other than the darkest blue we can find.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

SarDragon

Well, the olde Smurf suits weren't any easier to see than anything else we've worn for a utility uniform, so some sort of orange augmentation is essential. Not to mention the Smurf suit color was, IMHO, hideous, anyway.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

ZigZag911

Over the years several wings have used orange or yellow baseball caps for ground team personnel, highly visible....if not a large enough target, then wear some sort of orange safety vest when going into woods, forests, and so forth.....you need it many places during hunting season, anyhow.

Eclipse

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 23, 2006, 12:42:39 AM
Over the years several wings have used orange or yellow baseball caps for ground team personnel, highly visible....if not a large enough target, then wear some sort of orange safety vest when going into woods, forests, and so forth.....you need it many places during hunting season, anyhow.

"...Several Wings..."?  :o  ???

A reflective vest is >REQUIRED< gear for any GTM's. It always has been, or certainly has been for the last two rev's of the gear list. See above for citations of the GT manual, and the new 39-1 now makes it a part of the uniform.

Where are you guys getting that its optional?  Some members play fast and loose with the color (orange vs. yellow), but there is no question you're supposed to wear something bright.

Its so frustrating to see people complaining about  / suggesting things which are already addressed or included in the regs.  If you're wearing the badge, you sure should know this, and if not, check before you comment.

(BTW - ILWG authorizes and encourages an orange hat, especially for the GTL, but for field use only, not for everyday wear.)

"That Others May Zoom"

Chaplaindon

Eclipse is right about the mandate for a reflective vest, however, as long as CAP persists in wearing low-visibility uniforms (e.g. BDU in woodland camo) this is an important if often uncomfortable necessity.

I think that we could get NHQ/NEC/NB to rethink the color/pattern of our field uniforms by taking the "orange hefty bag" to the next lexel ... to aircrews and mission base staff who elect to wear navy blue or sage green flight suits, BDUs or BBUs or the navy golf shirt/gray slacks flying combo.

Let's face it, these are not the most visible colors and unless we want to play "invisbile pedestrian" around moving surface vehicles and aircraft with deadly props, we need to see these folks more clearly. Based upon the principles of ORM, if flagging an extension cord improves safety, then without a doubt making our pedestrian members more visible around the parking lot and flight line would as well.

And as a further consideration, if ICs and flight crews had to be encumbered by these hefty bags (at least while outside their aircraft), alot more thought would go into their wear (for everyone) and perhaps some alternative uniforms that could safely eliminate their need.

If these improve safety for GTM's and UDFTM's, why wouldn't they do so for all of our personnel wearing similar uniforms?

Mind you, they'd look like drop-outs from clown college, but maybe it would cause some senior leaders (many of whom are aviators) to think "outside the box" about all CAPs uniforms.
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

flyguy06

Quote from: Chaplaindon on October 21, 2006, 03:12:21 PM
When you wrote,  "I think that would then give a very good combination of uniforms.  One field uniform for Air Force related activities (helping out the local unit, visiting an air base, or encampment.) and one set of uniforms for non Air force activities, mainly SAR based," you missed the point of a uniform.

If we have several so-called "uniforms" at an event, then we are by definition NOT UNIFORM. The clothing we wear then would just be "outfits" and not A UNIFORM. If uniformity in our CAP outfits is desireable, and I beleive that it is, then we should be uniform in them and not demonstrating the breadth of CAP outfits available.

I
If you want uniformity at events, then that is a command responsibility. The Squadron Commander or event coordinator sets that tone. FOr example, the Sqaudron Commander could say "Every first Thursday we will wear the blue AF uniform or civilian combo for those that dont meet height and weight. Onthe second Thursday we will wear the BDU or blue BDU for those thatdontmeet height and weight" If you are working an airshow then the Commander could prescribe the uniform of the day. Tose are just examples of command responsibility that commanders need to take upon themselves more than they are doing.

Pylon

Quote from: flyguy06 on October 23, 2006, 03:51:31 PM
If you want uniformity at events, then that is a command responsibility. The Squadron Commander or event coordinator sets that tone. FOr example, the Sqaudron Commander could say "Every first Thursday we will wear the blue AF uniform or civilian combo for those that dont meet height and weight. Onthe second Thursday we will wear the BDU or blue BDU for those thatdontmeet height and weight" If you are working an airshow then the Commander could prescribe the uniform of the day. Tose are just examples of command responsibility that commanders need to take upon themselves more than they are doing.

Speaking of the commander setting the uniform for the activity, how far does that authority reach?  For example, could a commander of a higher echelon, such as a wing or group say: No personnel in this group will wear flight suits from now on, or no cadets in this wing will wear BDUs from now on, or no senior members in the region will wear X from now on.  Does the commander setting the uniform go that far?
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Psicorp

I think they can...it would be wrong though.  Ruling out a uniform completely from wear would bring up a whole slew of issues.  To use your example: if a Group CC decided that within his/her Group that flightsuits are forbidden, it would bright up the issue of being unable to wear the appropriate uniform for certain activities; in this case, no flying could take place within that Group.  (I wouldn't want to be standing between the mutinying masses and the CC at that point).  One could argue that being unable to wear Nomex while flying puts the crew in unnessary risk, from a safety standpoint. 

The same would go for ruling that cadets cannot wear BDUs.  If that were the case, then cadets could no longer participate in Missions or excersizes.  Can you picture a Ground Team of cadets (male and female) walking through the woods in full service dress...with orange vests?

The most sensible limitations are activity specific.  For example, stating: Officers in Group XII will not wear the golf shirt combination when working with cadets. The appropriate uniform depending on the activity will either be the Air Force style blues, the Corporate aviator shirt/blue pants combination, or BDUs (Air Force style or Corporate).

As always, just my $0.02 (before taxes)

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

Chaplaindon

Psicorp,

Your assertion that, "One could argue that being unable to wear Nomex while flying puts the crew in unnessary risk, from a safety standpoint" is a "stretch" -- at the very least.

While it is an undeniable truth that the US armed forces (and those of many other nations) outfit their aviators and aircrews in Nomex flight clothing for protective purposes, it is hard to honestly assert that by CAP personnel wearing it too, that CAP aircrews are enhancing safety.

Here's why: although Nomex is fire-retardant, a coverall of it will provide little of any useful theremal of flash protection to the wearer in the absence of a full suite of ancillary protective items (e.g. helmet, goggles of face shield, gloves, nomex thermal under clothes "long johns", leather flying boots and the like).

Most CAP aviators that I see wearing the Nomex green (or blue) "bag" wear it without regards to the other items of protection I just listed. In an crash, cockpit fire, ditching or off-airport landing, the most important things needed for emergent egress are usually unprotected ... your eyes (to find your exit), your skull (to protect your brain and thus your ability to think through your egress), your hands and your feet (your "tools" for egress and escape).

If in the southern US, where I live and serve, you wore FULL Nomex regalia (e.g. racing drivers for F-1, NASCAR, IndyCar, etc) you would melt most of the year when the ambient air temperature (even at search altitudes) is sweltering. Hence the so-called "safety" of the Nomex becomes a liability and a hazard.

Even racing drivers wear "cool suits" water-cooled" long johns and skull caps that "air condition their Nomex safety suits. CAP aircraft are not air conditioned and few of our volunteers could afford to buy a "cool suit."

So, to review:

1.  Worn as most CAP members wear the green/blue bag ... gloveless, even sleeves rolled up ... without Nomex long-johns underneath ... no helmet, no goggles/face shield ... the Nomex isn't really useful.

2.  Worn as per US military standards or those of motor racing would make the suit a dangerous liability for the wearer.

Frankly, I believe that most CAP members wear the Nomex "bags" because they think they look nice. Nothing more.
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

Eclipse

Not only that - but most CAP aircrews opt for the less expensive nylon flight jacket, which is, in fact an accelerant.


"That Others May Zoom"

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: Eclipse on October 24, 2006, 02:38:47 AM
Not only that - but most CAP aircrews opt for the less expensive nylon flight jacket, which is, in fact an accelerant.

Two words: 'shrink wrap'.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

BillB

After rather quick research, I can't find any cases where CAP aircraft crashed on missions and fire was involved. Granted this was a quick search from old records, but unless a pilot flew full bore into a granite cloud, the chances of fire in a light aircraft doing normal mission flights are so minor that it's not probable for fire to be involved. So why the thread pushing for nomax for flight crews? It appears that it makes no difference if a pilot is wearing golf shirt and grey pants or whatever uniform they choose. The only push for nomax sems to be the "coolness" factor.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104