Vanguard Pricing Very High?

[RADIOMAN015]

Interesting point with Golf shirts:
Vanguard Screen Printed (one color white) Golf Shirt:  $22.00
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_440_454

American Radio Relay League Screen Printed multiple color Golf Shirt:  $12.95

Now I would assume that the ARRL is still making a profit on this.   Just for the sake of comparison, lets say that dark colored Golf Shirt add $2.00 to price, total: $14.95.

Perhaps the ARRL could be subcontracted to do the Golf Shirts for us
RM

[JC004]

What?

[jimmydeanno]

Are they the same thread count, cut, and color?  Who makes each shirt.  There's more to it than, "they're both golf shirts."  Like items are not same items.

[Eclipse]

Now I would assume that the ARRL is still making a profit on this. 

You might want to actually confirm that before making an issue of it, since if they are they would probably have to pay sales tax on the profits.

We get shirts made every year for cost by a member who is benevolent to CAP and has a shirt business.  Without someone working for free, we
would have to pay twice as much.

[a2capt]

A comment I picked up from the last nightly debrief at NCC this year was that t-shirts and pins were done away with due to budget issues and the sole-source requirement, making them of higher cost. "I could give you t-shirts, or I could give you lunch.. "

IOW, seems like units at various levels take things into their own hands and get the stuff done in various ways, and are now forced to the sole-source contractor that is no so competitive on their prices.  At least that was the gist of what it sounded like to me, with emphasis laid on the sole-source

[Ned]

As I understant it, NHQ is actively seeking a modification to the VG contract that will allow units/activities to procure small lots of things like CAP t-shirts from non-VG sources.  This is a direct result of member feedback.

Nothing is final yet.  Watch the NHQ website for developments.

Ned Lee

[JC004]

As I understant it, NHQ is actively seeking a modification to the VG contract that will allow units/activities to procure small lots of things like CAP t-shirts from non-VG sources.  This is a direct result of member feedback.

That is outstanding. 

Nothing is final yet.  Watch the NHQ website for developments.

Can't.  Hurts my eyes and brain.

[Thrashed]

From the Vanguard site:
"CIVIL AIR PATROL


A portion of all Civil Air Patrol sales are donated to Civil Air Patrol Headquarters for the enhancement of C.A.P programs.
All Civil Air Patrol orders are processed out of the Virginia location. Please call 1-800-221-1264 with any questions.

Vanguard Industries, Inc. supports the members of the Civil Air Patrol. Click Here to visit the Civil Air Patrol members page."

What you buy at Vanguard goes to support CAP. Vanguard is like a built in fundraiser. Don't you support CAP?

[CAPSGT]

Sure I support CAP.  I gave them my $1.32 when I bought my $22 polo.

Oh yeah, I also give CAP countless hours and direct donations to my squadron to help offset the squadron's expenses.

I just had more money to give my squadron (which is much more limited in income producing ability than NHQ) when I wasn't limited to the sole-source vendor.

[Zen Master Charlie]

No matter how you look at it, the monopoly that is Vangard is very high priced. I missed the low priced yet equally as great Hawk Shop... isnt there something in the Constitution about monopolies?  just sayin  I wish subcontracting was ok, but they just about killed the man behind the Hawk Shop... evil large corperations!

[Spaceman3750]

No matter how you look at it, the monopoly that is Vangard is very high priced. I missed the low priced yet equally as great Hawk Shop... isnt there something in the Constitution about monopolies?  just sayin  I wish subcontracting was ok, but they just about killed the man behind the Hawk Shop... evil large corperations!

Yes, those darn successful businessmen who through hard work came to get a contract...

Oh, and darn those evil Spaatz cadets for hogging all the diamonds too...

[Zen Master Charlie]

No matter how you look at it, the monopoly that is Vangard is very high priced. I missed the low priced yet equally as great Hawk Shop... isnt there something in the Constitution about monopolies?  just sayin  I wish subcontracting was ok, but they just about killed the man behind the Hawk Shop... evil large corperations!

Yes, those darn successful businessmen who through hard work came to get a contract...

Well goody for them, their hard earned success is costing me more money! Arent they just a bowl full of cherrioes!

[Spaceman3750]

No matter how you look at it, the monopoly that is Vangard is very high priced. I missed the low priced yet equally as great Hawk Shop... isnt there something in the Constitution about monopolies?  just sayin  I wish subcontracting was ok, but they just about killed the man behind the Hawk Shop... evil large corperations!

Yes, those darn successful businessmen who through hard work came to get a contract...

Well goody for them, their hard earned success is costing me more money! Arent they just a bowl full of cherrioes!

Life costs money. Volunteering costs money. There's no way around either and things are going to be easier on you if you accept that and budget accordingly.

[Zen Master Charlie]

No matter how you look at it, the monopoly that is Vangard is very high priced. I missed the low priced yet equally as great Hawk Shop... isnt there something in the Constitution about monopolies?  just sayin  I wish subcontracting was ok, but they just about killed the man behind the Hawk Shop... evil large corperations!

Yes, those darn successful businessmen who through hard work came to get a contract...

Well goody for them, their hard earned success is costing me more money! Arent they just a bowl full of cherrioes!

Life costs money. Volunteering costs money. There's no way around either and things are going to be easier on you if you accept that and budget accordingly.

Yes, we are all volunteers, but my question is, why does a monopoly have to be at the top of supply. Even the Air Force has subcontractors. They have one large company that got the contract and their stuff isnt that great, so they issue it, but soldiers have the option of purchasing better equipment from other companies at their own cost. Vangard for instance, is a subcontractor for military equipment. Vangard is to the U.S. Military, as The Hawk Shop was to CAP. So why does CAP have to have one loan uniform provider? Especially if CAP can't even keep up with supplying our new cadets with what they need. My family (My mom and I) have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on CAP equipment for cadets and a large factor in that is buying expensive blues uniforms from Vanguard, that nationals forgets to mail to new cadets. My point is, we paid a butt load of money to get stuff from the Hawk, why do we need to pay a butt load ontop of a buttload to get the same stuff from a Monopoly. You dont see the U.S. Military shutting down Vangard for being a subcontractor do you? Ofcourse not, because that would be against the constitution... I personally believe, that even though CAP awarded Vangard the contract, it was unconstitutional for them to shut down an independant company.

[jimmydeanno]

isnt there something in the Constitution about monopolies?

Have you read the Constitution?

[Eclipse]

Even the Air Force has subcontractors. They have one large company that got the contract and their stuff isnt that great, so they issue it,

The USAF needs subcontractors in order to fulfill their mission, CAP does not.

The USAF has ~500k personnel including the guard but not civilians, and they are spread out all over the world.  Their personnel are required to
own the full uniform compliment, and they wear their uniform and insignia 24x7(ish), so they need millions of pieces, and they wear them out at
a rate unheard of for CAP members.

Further, much of their insignia is "generic", meaning their officer and enlisted pins, etc., have nothing or very little that makes them "unique", and
therefore they are worn by countless millions of other services both US and foreign.

Not so for CAP which has 60k(ish) members, all in CONUS, and non of which are required to purchase anything but one set of Aviator whites, and on those all you need is the nametag.  Not exactly a "growing market".  In fact, the membership numbers have been basically static for more than a decade.

Tooling systems to create metal insignia is expensive, and companies will not be interested in doing it unless they see a sale market (preferably with growth), that will justify the investment and return some profits.   The only way to insure that market is through exclusivity with your vendors, after which you must enforce that situation or else lose the vendor or be subject to litigation for breach of contract.

If you license the insignia to "other", not only do you lose quality control, but you also further segment the sales market and lower the profit potential
for any company looking to enter it.  That's how you wind up with issues like the "alternate" vendor who went and had his own dies and setups done in the PAC-Rim, where the economics are "different" and we wound up with thousands of members wearing insignia, patches, and related items of poor quality, incorrect details, wrong colors, etc.

Further to that, though everyone express angst about the loss of the "alternate" vendor, few seem to remember that his prices were the same or higher in most cases than the official source.  He wasn't passing anything through at cost to his loyal fellow members, he was running a for-profit business.
Nothing wrong with that, per-se, but unless he opens his books to us for the sake of argument, who's to say he wasn't making up for lower volume with higher margins?

but soldiers have the option of purchasing better equipment from other companies at their own cost.

CAP members have the same option for much of what they wear, especially "consumables", and people making these arguments tend to forget or ignore
the fact that much of member insignia is passed around between members, especially cadets, which further dilutes the potential for profit.

Vangard for instance, is a subcontractor for military equipment. Vangard is to the U.S. Military, as The Hawk Shop was to CAP. So why does CAP have to have one loan uniform provider? Especially if CAP can't even keep up with supplying our new cadets with what they need.

Dress uniforms for the USAF come from the same place for everyone wearing them.  If you find them online direct, they are either knock-offs or
have been supplied by the same companies.  In most cases slow delivery of cadet uniform parts is due to internal CAP bureaucracy or annual budget issues, neither of which would be relieved by a different supplier.

Members are always free to go direct to AAFES or an MCSS and pay for their uniform, however during wartime they may well find AAFES' cupboards are bare as well.  There were thousands of Airmen scrambling to find blues a couple years ago when the CSAF decided everyone would wear them on Monday.  AAFES and MCSS were stripped clean for months.

My family (My mom and I) have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on CAP equipment for cadets and a large factor in that is buying expensive blues uniforms from Vanguard, that nationals forgets to mail to new cadets.

See above.

...we paid a butt load of money to get stuff from the Hawk,

Everything you bought from Hawk is optional, if the prices are to high, talk to them, not CAP, Inc.  Most of us here would agree that it is
all unnecessary  For the record, they are a monopoly as well.  That is like complaining you can only get your squadron's t-shirt direct from your squadron.

... because that would be against the constitution... I personally believe, that even though CAP awarded Vangard the contract, it was unconstitutional for them to shut down an independant company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution

[Zen Master Charlie]

isnt there something in the Constitution about monopolies?

Have you read the Constitution?

Indubidably! 

[Zen Master Charlie]

Even the Air Force has subcontractors. They have one large company that got the contract and their stuff isnt that great, so they issue it,

The USAF needs subcontractors in order to fulfill their mission, CAP does not.

Then tell me why when we went to order items for my Drill Team last month, more than half of the items were on back order, and shipping took 3 weeks? hmmmm... atleast The Hawk always got it to you within one week!

[Zen Master Charlie]

@Eclipse, Btw, let me know when the abbriviated version of that novel you just wrote comes out, I'd love to read it sometime...

[BuckeyeDEJ]

isnt there something in the Constitution about monopolies?

Have you read the Constitution?

Indubidably! 

***BUZZ***

No, you haven't. Go back and review. Thanks for playing.

[Zen Master Charlie]

***BUZZ***

No, you haven't. Go back and review. Thanks for playing.
[/quote]

Haha, do you feel special with your big red buzzy thing... good, Im happy.  :clap:

Yes I have read the Constitution, from the preamble to the articles and the amendments, over and over and over. But what you have to understand about it, which I do, do you? Is that the constitution is open to interpritation by anyone, much like manuals and regs. This is why we have SCJ's. Their job is interpriting. I interprit it one way, you interprit it another. Lets call that fair eh.

[a2capt]

Ummm... gee, maybe because you were not the only one ordering drill team stuff just before NCC and maybe they actually did run out. Sure, a good supplier would keep up with what the organization is doing and note the trends with the activities .. but with drill teams consisting of a lot of cadet officers, too, I would not be surprised at all if they sold quite a bit of ribbons in the weeks leading up to it as those teams that won their regions now had to concentrate on the last competition.

FWIW, I decided I might as well complete a proper ribbon rack, and I ordered stuff on Friday with FedEx selected, and a phone call follow up afterwards, and they got it out to me. The only problem I had was .. instead of a Find ribbon, I had a Doolittle. Luckily I scored a Find from a cadet that was redoing their rack..

Vanguard has corrected the pricing issues on a lot of stuff, and it's pretty much on par with what the active duty stuff is.

[arajca]

You dont see the U.S. Military shutting down Vangard for being a subcontractor do you? Ofcourse not, because that would be against the constitution... I personally believe, that even though CAP awarded Vangard the contract, it was unconstitutional for them to shut down an independant company.

CAP did not shut down anyone. They merely exercised their rights to control who sells their unique items, as provided for in federal law. The fact that the The Hock Shop did not have any other merchandise and could not remain in business without selling the CAP stuff is not CAP's responsibility.

If the military found that Vanguard or some other contractor or subcontractor was violating the terms of the contract, they can rescind the authorization for them to provide supplies. This may result in said contractor going out of business, but it would be the contractor's own fault.

[Eclipse]

@Eclipse, Btw, let me know when the abbriviated version of that novel you just wrote comes out, I'd love to read it sometime...

Outstanding attitude.  It should serve you well.  I apologize if the facts and background on this situation which you
feel so adamant about are too verbose for your attention.  The facts of this situation contradict your opinion, so you might want
to take the time, if only so you actually understand the argument in which you are participating.

The big-boy pool does not always accept "because I said so..."

Yes I have read the Constitution, from the preamble to the articles and the amendments, over and over and over.

Then you would know there is nothing in the constitution which applies to corporate monopolies, or are ignoring the fact that
things like copyright licensing are also applicable as the Constitution is the basis of our government, but not the only document
which constitutes laws.

Is that the constitution is open to interpritation by anyone, much like manuals and regs. This is why we have SCJ's. Their job is interpriting. I interprit it one way, you interprit it another. Lets call that fair eh.

It is also open to interpretation, which is, however, unnecessary, unless you would care to cite the article or amendment that you feel you would interpret...

Also "@EClipse?"...this isn't Twitter.

[a2capt]

Outstanding attitude.  It should serve you well.

..and almost nothing has changed, yet another come into the forum like a bull in a china closet .. "twice". Look back at the post history, with a period of "I'm leaving this place" in between.

[jeders]

Then tell me why when we went to order items for my Drill Team last month, more than half of the items were on back order, and shipping took 3 weeks? hmmmm... atleast The Hawk always got it to you within one week!

I defended the Hawk just as much, if not more, than anyone. But this just isn't true. Sometimes suppliers run out, it's your fault, quite frankly, for not planning far enough ahead. I remember when I was promoting to C/2d Lt, and I ordered everything I needed from CAPMart. I got everything except my hard shoulder boards. So I went to the Hawk, they were back ordered too. Why, because they got some things like that from CAPMart.

A month later I got 2 new sets of shoulder boards from CAPMart, and two weeks later I got 2 new sets from the Hawk.

[Eclipse]

Gents, the name of the vendor was the Hock, not the Hawk, thus my comments about stuff bought from there being "optional".

[lordmonar]

Yes, we are all volunteers, but my question is, why does a monopoly have to be at the top of supply. Even the Air Force has subcontractors. They have one large company that got the contract and their stuff isnt that great, so they issue it, but soldiers have the option of purchasing better equipment from other companies at their own cost. Vangard for instance, is a subcontractor for military equipment. Vangard is to the U.S. Military, as The Hawk Shop was to CAP. So why does CAP have to have one loan uniform provider? Especially if CAP can't even keep up with supplying our new cadets with what they need. My family (My mom and I) have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on CAP equipment for cadets and a large factor in that is buying expensive blues uniforms from Vanguard, that nationals forgets to mail to new cadets. My point is, we paid a butt load of money to get stuff from the Hawk, why do we need to pay a butt load ontop of a buttload to get the same stuff from a Monopoly. You dont see the U.S. Military shutting down Vangard for being a subcontractor do you? Ofcourse not, because that would be against the constitution... I personally believe, that even though CAP awarded Vangard the contract, it was unconstitutional for them to shut down an independant company.

Uh.....no.

military personnel must buy and wear insignia that meets certain quality criteria.  They are free to go to any retailer.....but that retailer must supply stuff that has been vetted by the military and issued a certificate of acceptablity.

First off......other then the Hock Shop.....Vanguard has always been our supplier of CAP insigina.  Back when it was the Book Store....we bought from Vanguard and then resold it to the members......and lost thousands of dollars in the process. 

Now let's be very clear here.  CAP made a contract with Vanguard to be our supplier.  NHQ wants our insignia to be of high quality and consitant quality.  They could insist that members only wear certified items (like the air force does) but then that means we have to spend money on setting up said certification process.....not cheap.  So they gave Vanguard sole rights to produce CAP specific items.  This SAVES us money in the long run....and makes sure we don't have anyone running around with badges and insignia that look like crud because they are made my Mr. Lee and his fly by night insignia shop.

Now...for the generic USAF items (like blues) you can go to AAFES, your surplus store or Vanguard to get these items.  Vanguard does not have a sole sorce contract for these items.

The only thing that is sole sorce is specific CAP items only.

Now I liked a lot of what the Hock Shop sold and I liked the idea of a small time operation run by one of our own....but let's be honest....a lot of what they sold was of lesser quality then Vanguard......some of it was better....but not all.  And we made the deal with Vanguard because it made the best sense at the time.

I don't really see a large competition for CAP related items.....I mean there were only one or two places who produced CAP items before the C&D orders when out.

I see the frustration some people have....thinking that they have no choice....but I don't think you understand the reality of the market.  CAP is just too small of a market for multiple sellers to actually have a major impact on prices.   (assuming that quality stays the same).  But you will get 2-3 non U.S. suppliers who will whip up a bunch of cheap GT badges for you at $.20 a pop.....and will look like it.  Is that where you really want to take our uniforms?

[a2capt]

..and on those $.20 badges, if they happen to look hack, at least Vanguard will listen and even do something about it. The answer from the Hock was .. "it is what it is".

[saleet]

I have read the discussion about Vanguard versus Hock Shop with interest.  I joined CAP in 1960, my first blue uniform and insignia was purchased from Gordon's, a private business operated outside of Fort Meade, MD.  Gordon's even had a plentiful supply of WWII CAP insignia in stock.  My fist C.A.P.C. cutouts were from there and made of Sterling Silver, which had to be polished each week before my meeting.  You could also buy through the mail from S. Mitchell, NY, Brigade Quartermasters, Pennsylvania Military Supply, and GENESCO, just to name a few.  The quality was the same and prices competitive.  I remember all Wing patches across the board were .25 cents.


Maybe the Good Old Days weren't so bad.

Phil