Interestingly the latest newsletter from the Military Officers Association of America is stating that if the budget is not approved or continued on April 8th, 2011, the government will have to shut down. Apparently there's concern even about the pay of active as well as retired military personnel and their survivors. Also civilian pay will stop. Apparently on the civilian side, everyone will be out of work. The military will continue to work without pay.
Now from a Civil Air Patrol standpoint, as many of you already know, most wings have not had any large scale typical SAREX/DR exercises unless associated with an AF inspections. So we are already hurting.
IF we get a mission when the government funding is shut off, who knows if we will every get reimbursed for it.
I guess IF congress doesn't pass a continuing resolution, I definitely won't have any interest in any CAP missions until I can be assured of reimbursement. Oh, maybe I can call my local congressman and he can take some money out of his campaign funds.
Not very good news to motivate anyone in the government or associated with the government at this time!
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 06:00:38 PMI definitely won't have any interest in any CAP missions until I can be assured of reimbursement.
I'm sure we are all shocked that your first concern regarding a mission is reimbursement.
The government does not "shut down" - people pre-identified as essential personnel will continue to be paid and work. This is mostly political posturing
and it won't last more than a day or two at most.
The fact that some groups are getting worried about it means the posturing is working.
The last time this happened, back in the 90's, even with the shutdown the military winds up being excluded, including civilians. That time, civilians were furloughed for a couple of days before everyone decided we just can't do that with DoD.
What is likely to happen is that another (and another, and another) continuing resolution will be passed for another couple of weeks while they continue their posturing. It's all political games. The vast majority of spending everyone agrees on, but they hold that up to fight over the small stuff. This is your government at work.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2011, 06:08:49 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 06:00:38 PMI definitely won't have any interest in any CAP missions until I can be assured of reimbursement.
I'm sure we are all shocked that your first concern regarding a mission is reimbursement.
The government does not "shut down" - people pre-identified as essential personnel will continue to be paid and work. This is mostly political posturing
and it won't last more than a day or two at most.
The fact that some groups are getting worried about it means the posturing is working.
I don't think anyone gets paid unless the bill has a retroactive provision in it. You are correct about emergency essential employees, but that's really a small number overall in comparison to the total number of federal employees.
CAP overall mission proficiency has been affected by the current budget approval problems -- Our wing has not had ANY SAREX/DR exercises since the beginning of the fiscal year involving aircraft. I don't see pilots & air crews running to pay their own money to run an exercise (yet on the ground side they are talking about an exercise without any funding --- get real >:( Put an airplane up with those members paying for its' operation and I might get motivated to spend some of my hard earned money, otherwise, I don't have much motivation to participate :(
RM
I have had two cadets quit with the reasons partially being a lack of o-flights. These budgetary games do have an effect on us at a unit level.
That's interesting, as when I was part of MAWG, the wing only funded a couple of SAREX's a year. If you wanted GT or aircrew training, you paid for it out of your own pocket and guess what? The people who had rating actually participated in missions as they had skin in the game. Can you say as much now?
Wings not running SAREx's has little to do with the funding issues, unless you can show me where they were already on the calendar and planned
and then canceled because of no money, which is silly, since the majority of operations can be performed with no funding.
As to O-Rides, yes, there were some issues early in the fiscal year, but somehow my region and wing was able to come up with money, and we
are back to status quo - scheduled, funded rides with little to no interest by the cadets.
While I have no doubt your cadets cited it as an excuse reason, I seriously doubt too many cadets really quit because of a few missed rides. If that is
all they are in CAP for, they are missing the point.
Quote from: N Harmon on March 25, 2011, 06:42:38 PM
I have had two cadets quit with the reasons partially being a lack of o-flights. These budgetary games do have an effect on us at a unit level.
They were in it for the wrong reasons...visit some other forums and read how some former "5'ers" (as per the 5 O-Flights) bash CAP and the cadet program. Especially I recall reading one where a cadet bragged (in my opinion) about giving some cadet officer and hard time purposely disrespecting other CAP people.
Youth don't join CAP for O-Flights alone...there is an OATH taken.
As per exercises...we often have, in Texas, many an unfunded exercise that, I suppose, the hard core CAP members (those that really enjoy CAP and don't mine spending what it takes to get training opptunities) don't mind self funding.
In reality, I don't think I have ever asked for reimbursement for any travel time, ELT missions of the like. Fingured it be a donation...that being my choice.
Quote from: N Harmon on March 25, 2011, 06:42:38 PM
I have had two cadets quit with the reasons partially being a lack of o-flights. These budgetary games do have an effect on us at a unit level.
Wow. They only get 5 to begin with right? Talk about impatient. "No O-Flights this month? Im quitting."
Correct, 5 powered and 5 glider. They can also do all the back seat or "99" rides as are available.
I've had this discussion before here and elsewhere - kids today simply aren't as impressed with aviation as a whole, and once you've
been in a Cessna a couple of times, you either love it and want more, or it's just another vehicle.
I would say this is both the curse and success of aviation and aerospace in general - that which becomes commonplace is no longer exciting.
I'm sure when we get matter transport and warp drive to work, the first ones through will be very excited about it, but after a couple of
years its just the bus.
Why do you think space launches are page 2 news?
On the positive side, the last time this happened .. the national park admissions were free. No one was there to staff the booth.
Seriously.
Why am I not surprised RMs' first concern is reimbursement, either.
Oh, and if anything, pay is retroactive. you don't loose it. Quit buying all this political posturing.
A lot of cadets quit because there isn't anything aviation related in their "Aviation Cadet Program." Cadets join because they want to learn about leadership in an aerospace oriented environment. You recruit cadets, you tell them and their parents that we'll take them flying, for free, a few times and after a year they still haven't ever been in an airplane. That is a failure on our part, not theirs.
The O-Flight program is supposed to be a benefit of membership and something that keeps them interested in aviation. If they aren't flying, we aren't providing the benefits we say we provide.
Exit surveys of cadets indicate that they quit because of (in no particular order):
1) Not enough flying
2) Lack of local leadership
3) Not enough activities in general.
4) Doing the same thing at every meeting (i.e. drilling for 1.5 hours each night)
Oh yeah, government shutdown...
Those Congress Critters are doing all this posturing to try to eliminate like 1% of the budget. Those that aren't going to get their paychecks, if there is a shutdown, are the employees that probably can't afford a delay in their paycheck in the first place - since they aren't "essential personnel" anyway.
Most years we try to keep the activity level up in the winter months by doing o-flights. Usually that and all of the preparation/execution for Wreaths Across America get us through. Had we known that funding would have been delayed as it was this year, we probably would have looked elsewhere for activities. For that I take responsibility. It won't happen again.
Some of you seem to think I was saying the lack of o-flights is what prompted these cadets to quit, when that wasn't what I wrote at all. It was a contributing factor to our unit's lack of activity.
Quote from: N Harmon on March 25, 2011, 06:42:38 PM
I have had two cadets quit with the reasons partially being a lack of o-flights. These budgetary games do have an effect on us at a unit level.
They only get 5 front seat powered rides through their entire cadet career. The total program is sufficient to keep cadets engaged when properly run. O-Flights are just an icing on the proverbial cake.
I spent 25 years in the FAA, and we did this dance every few years. I only remember one occasion where some nonessential personnel took a day or two off, and the pay was restored to them. Now I've been pulled out of retirement to work for DoD, it's the same story all over again. Don't panic (or attempt to incite panic).
As far as a lack of wing-wide exercises, that sounds like a local problem. We had one last fall, and we flew one in February in preparation for the GTE that happens tomorrow. The GTE's been scaled back to a single day due to the tsunami DR mission we flew two weeks ago. We're a small wing. YMMV
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2011, 07:01:49 PM
Wings not running SAREx's has little to do with the funding issues, unless you can show me where they were already on the calendar and planned
and then canceled because of no money, which is silly, since the majority of operations can be performed with no funding.
We have no annual SAREX schedule published in the wing at this time due to funding issues. I have two wing wide exercises in the pre planning phase and have not been asked to go forward with the final plans and putting it into WMIRS at this time. NO one is interested in paying for flying or for paying large amount of money to transport ground teams in the squadron vans with NO potential for reimbursement. It isn't going to happen, period :-[
RM
RM, where you planning those SAREX's in conjunction with the WING DOS or free lancing on your own? Arn't you in MAWG?
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 08:54:51 PMNO one is interested in paying for flying or for paying large amount of money to transport ground teams in the squadron vans with NO potential for reimbursement.
And now you speak for your entire wing?
I think the most [darn]ing thing about a Govt shutdown is how few people would notice. The revenues of the Federal Government are sufficient to continue funding treasury obligations and "critical" federal employees ( Note: All of them, in the Govt's opinion) pretty much ad infinitum. If the Rural Electrification Committee or the Avocado Advisory board goes unfunded, I don't think we will have Libya-level riots.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on March 25, 2011, 09:32:03 PM...Avocado Advisory board goes unfunded, I don't think we will have Libya-level riots.
I don't think you understand the true power of guacamole.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 25, 2011, 09:42:43 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on March 25, 2011, 09:32:03 PM...Avocado Advisory board goes unfunded, I don't think we will have Libya-level riots.
I don't think you understand the true power of guacamole.
Okay now that there is funny
I suppose that means that our research at the We-Bunkum Tech regarding the impact of the cost of D-cells on the urban economy will also suffer.
Quote from: Major Lord on March 25, 2011, 09:32:03 PM
...I don't think we will have Libya-level riots.
Those kick in when the frosty cold malted beverages stop flowing. ;D
OK, let's work this out. A USAF C130 costs about $2700 per hour to operate. With a crew of 9 each will have to kick in $300 per hour to cover the cost. Since they have"skin in the game" they shouldn't have a problem with this. Ridiculous for them. Ridiculous for CAP.
I have been through several of these over the years... the govt will not "shut down". The military will not be disbanded. Anarchy and civil strife will not take over(at least not over this).
This is a great way to save money though! Just think of all of the spending curtailed because of this. Only essential purchases and spending are going through now. I say stretch it out a bit longer.
Quote from: Pylon on March 25, 2011, 08:14:44 PMThey only get 5 front seat powered rides through their entire cadet career. The total program is sufficient to keep cadets engaged when properly run. O-Flights are just an icing on the proverbial cake.
Yeah, I think we had gotten used to it being a more integral part of the cadet program than we should have. But of course, that is not how our recruiting materials sell the program so we probably were not the only ones.
Quote from: Header on March 26, 2011, 12:56:50 AMOK, let's work this out. A USAF C130 costs about $2700 per hour to operate. With a crew of 9 each will have to kick in $300 per hour to cover the cost. Since they have"skin in the game" they shouldn't have a problem with this. Ridiculous for them. Ridiculous for CAP.
You're comparing apples and potatoes. The CAP is an all volunteer force and shelling out money to play has been a part of this thing for as long as anyone I know can remember. If anything, it has gotten better recently with better financial management allowing the wings to shoulder the temporary costs of operations prior to reimbursement.
. . we seem to have plenty of money for war.
bill
Quote from: starshippe on March 26, 2011, 02:17:52 PM
. . we seem to have plenty of money for war.
bill
Oh , if that were only true! There are so many real enemies deserving of being sent to an ignoble death.. We have not had an
actual war in many years, just a series of "Police Actions" carried out with the tacit consent, but not the lawful vote and declaration, of the Congress. Only Congress can declare War, which they will not do. Declaring lawful war has real consequences, such as making aiding the enemy an act of treason. War is at least one of the things that Congress is actually Constitutionally permitted to do, unlike the Avocado Advisory Board, and funding research projects into the effects of cocaine on monkeys. (It turns out, the monkeys really liked cocaine, and it only took about 10 million tax-payer dollars to discover this) That pesky Constitution again....It is pretty much viewed as a general "guideline" by the Feds, not actual law. Up until a couple of weeks ago, our Government was still sending foreign aid funding to Libya, and now we are sending Tomahawks to provide "humanitarian relief". Neither strategy seems to be particularly successful...War do yes, or war do no...no war do so-so!
Major Lord
p.s. I think Khaddafi may be a Zombie, so make sure you open his cranial vault when you double tap him.
Quote from: starshippe on March 26, 2011, 02:17:52 PM
. . we seem to have plenty of money for war.
bill
Would you care to find out what would happen if we ever run out of money for national defense?
Because I would not...
Quote from: starshippe on March 26, 2011, 02:17:52 PM. . we seem to have plenty of money for war.
OK, seriously?
OK, here's the skinny:
1. CAP/NHQ will not shut down. My wife is our Wing Administrator, and got an email about this. They have contingency plans, and while some services may be temporarily reduced, they will still be available as needed.
2. We won't stop doing actual missions. This money comes from a different bucket, and is available as needed.
3. Money already set aside for approved missions (already planned and approved in WIMRS) is available as planned.
Do not panic, all is well...
Quote from: Al Sayre on March 26, 2011, 04:33:03 PMDo not panic, all is well...
Actually, when "all is well" is usually the time to start planning the panic...
Quote from: Eclipse on March 26, 2011, 04:44:34 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on March 26, 2011, 04:33:03 PMDo not panic, all is well...
Actually, when "all is well" is usually the time to start planning the panic...
If people did that, there would be no panic! ;D
Pay to "play"? Play? Talk about "play" to the widow of the pilot we fished out of a lake last year. I don't see our volunteer work as "play". Anyone who does is a Frank Burns to CAP and needs to leave now.
Quote from: Header on March 27, 2011, 01:39:17 AM
Pay to "play"? Play? Talk about "play" to the widow of the pilot we fished out of a lake last year. I don't see our volunteer work as "play". Anyone who does is a Frank Burns to CAP and needs to leave now.
You are broadly correct. From your perspective, it is not play, such as a child (and some adults) might do. The context used was equating play with participation, and we certainly pay do pay to participate.
YMMV.
Quote from: Al Sayre on March 26, 2011, 04:33:03 PM
OK, here's the skinny:
1. CAP/NHQ will not shut down. My wife is our Wing Administrator, and got an email about this. They have contingency plans, and while some services may be temporarily reduced, they will still be available as needed.
Do not panic, all is well...
My understanding is at today's Massachusetts Wing Conference, there was NO one from the national Hq (or national HQ paid staff) to provide the typical briefings and shake a greet with the membership. It was reported that travel funding/per diem was not available.
Also No Vanguard Uniforms concession either, so apparently sales must be down and wouldn't justify a trip to service the membership.
Anyone else want to confirm this
RM
Quote from: Header on March 27, 2011, 01:39:17 AM
Pay to "play"? Play? Talk about "play" to the widow of the pilot we fished out of a lake last year. I don't see our volunteer work as "play". Anyone who does is a Frank Burns to CAP and needs to leave now.
Wow dude... Have a diazepam 5mg on me.
Quote from: Header on March 27, 2011, 01:39:17 AM
Pay to "play"? Play? Talk about "play" to the widow of the pilot we fished out of a lake last year. I don't see our volunteer work as "play". Anyone who does is a Frank Burns to CAP and needs to leave now.
Dictionary.com references many potential meanings for the word "play." Numerous among them are references to serious use, the word is not limited to childish fun. Understanding the word has multiple uses is hardly a Ferret Face moment.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/play
Similarly, the word "chill" has a number of different meanings. Use #23 (at Dictionary.com) is particularly applicable for this conversation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chill
PaulR. Are you now prescribing without a license? ;D ]
Quote from: PaulR on March 27, 2011, 04:35:00 AM
Quote from: Header on March 27, 2011, 01:39:17 AM
Pay to "play"? Play? Talk about "play" to the widow of the pilot we fished out of a lake last year. I don't see our volunteer work as "play". Anyone who does is a Frank Burns to CAP and needs to leave now.
Wow dude... Have a diazepam 5mg on me.
Considering that most of our funding for squadron activities comes from the leather tri-fold wallet housed in my back pocket, local donations of time/supplies and cadets (collections for gas et al), this will have little effect on our squadron activities.
Well.....after three pages of angsts.......has anyone suggesting callying your senators and representitives and telling them that you think they are NOT doing their job?
I know that if I were SIX MONTHS behind on a dead line.....I would be in line at the unemployment officer.
I know how I am voting next set of elections........anyone but the encumbant.
Quote from: Header on March 27, 2011, 04:32:28 PM
PaulR. Are you now prescribing without a license? ;D
I dont have a license, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last week.
;D
Quote from: lordmonar on March 27, 2011, 05:18:27 PM
I know how I am voting next set of elections........anyone but the incumbent.
It's all happening because of political posturing, as mentioned before, put new people in there and you will have the same song with different musicians.
What needs to happen is that there needs to be massive objective cuts up there. By that, I mean that programs need to be examined for real wastes. Those who abuse welfare need to loose it in favor of those that are really suffering. If you live in government housing and have a new car and flat screen TV, you need to have either those items confiscated as the results of abuse or start paying more rent.
I know those that would say... "Food Stamp Programs need to be monitored, there are those that trade their food stamps for booze and cash...lock em up and let them stand in a line in a prison cafeteria for their food."
School districts can start consolidating and start eliminating some of the layers of administration and directorates...keep the teachers, loose the Superintendent's secretary's secretary. Keep the janitors and maintenance people and lose the guy in the office at admin who no one is sure of his job.
The fact is, these are hard times. Taxing people to death is not the answer...the government is not the savior. What happens when the middle and upper classes are taxed to support an ever growing lower class is a sort of social inertia. A genuine slowdown of economic activity.
The only solution is to cut spending and tax responsibly.
I think, and this may sound unrealistic to some, that if we cut and had a few "lean years" that two things would happen...1) a massive reduction of waste in government programs and 2) some more self-sufficiency in communities.
As I said, aside from O-Flights and blues, very little direct funds come from CAP and the AIR FORCE. We have had to scrounge around for what we have, take up collections and ask parents to fund elements of the program. That is grassroots CAP, and it doesn't just happen in South Texas.
It can be done...we may have to heed the words of the President when he said we had to sacrifice. As to how much is enough...who knows. I, unlike others, did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express!!! lol
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 27, 2011, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 27, 2011, 05:18:27 PM
I know how I am voting next set of elections........anyone but the incumbent.
As I said, aside from O-Flights and blues, very little direct funds come from CAP and the AIR FORCE. We have had to scrounge around for what we have, take up collections and ask parents to fund elements of the program. That is grassroots CAP, and it doesn't just happen in South Texas.
Oh, really -- The wing administrators and some of the folks at CAP HQ are laid off. Who processes the check out of the Wing Banker's program? Who's paying for the computer bandwidth going into National HQ? What happens to the computer team at National and who keeps the system going for on line cadet & senior testing?, etc, etc, etc,
The last time I looked at CAP's audited statements there's a heck of lot they are supporting at the local level. We really couldn't survive without Air Force support unless a lot of changes in the administrative mumbo jumbo's compliance we reduced or eliminated completely. Actually now might be a real good time to start looking at how many regulations in CAP can be cut to reduce expenditures.
RM
Rumor is Sparky stays at the Hilton
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 27, 2011, 07:11:08 PM
Oh, really -- The wing administrators and some of the folks at CAP HQ are laid off.
Do you know that for a fact? BTW - the term is "furloughed" not "laid off". Which is more than semantics.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 27, 2011, 07:11:08 PM
Who processes the check out of the Wing Banker's program?
Hmmm...how about the wing FM, his staff, and the Wing CC for starters? Plenty of people authorized to write checks, not that
they will need to for a few hours of pretend shut down.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 27, 2011, 07:11:08 PM
Who's paying for the computer bandwidth going into National HQ? What happens to the computer team at National and who keeps the system going for on line cadet & senior testing?, etc, etc, etc,
I don't know about how you do things, but most people don't pay for services on a daily basis, which means things like broadband and
consulting services will be unaffected.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 27, 2011, 07:11:08 PM
The last time I looked at CAP's audited statements there's a heck of lot they are supporting at the local level. We really couldn't survive without Air Force support unless a lot of changes in the administrative mumbo jumbo's compliance we reduced or eliminated completely.
Please be specific, because beyond the framework of the program, the FCU, the radios, and the aircraft, I am unaware of much direct, monetary support
that filters to unit level, and certainly nothing that would be effected by a few hours of pretend government shut down.
I think we should all take a step back and look at our own name...CAP. We all know that it means Come And Pay. 8)
That is a good one!
Or the less well known Cash And Plastic.
Based what I have seen in the former members thread,
Continuous Attrition Program
Quote from: Major Lord on March 25, 2011, 09:32:03 PM
I think the most [darn]ing thing about a Govt shutdown is how few people would notice. The revenues of the Federal Government are sufficient to continue funding treasury obligations and "critical" federal employees ( Note: All of them, in the Govt's opinion) pretty much ad infinitum. If the Rural Electrification Committee or the Avocado Advisory board goes unfunded, I don't think we will have Libya-level riots.
Major Lord
Pretty much all of NASA not working ISS or security at the gates will be sent home. Boeing won't be happy about delays in certification of new aircraft since the FAA outside of ATC and such will be shut down. Good luck trying to get a passport, or retire and start collecting social security. I'm expecting a 2 day shutdown, long enough for some to rile up the base and say "Yehaw we shut down them thar gov'met to show em we mean business!" but not long enough for anyone to really notice the effect. At least I'm hoping it's not that long, I have some younger coworkers (some with a wife and kids) who would be really hurting with a week or so unpaid.
If you are trying to make the case that the average citizen will in any way be effected by a government shutdown, I don't think it has been effective. I know that many government employees and contractors will have a temporary inconvenience, but if the House of Representatives prevents an increase in the debt limit, Congress is going to have to do some pretty serious trimming. Yes, the tax-feeders in America won't like it, but we pay their payroll, and we can live with their disapproval if it means a solvent country. Its a better alternative than a federal default or a revolution, both very realistic alternatives.
Major Lord
I can only hope for the fed gov to be shut down for a few months...
But realistically, we spend 3.5 trillion on 2.0 trillion income. Someday, maybe not in my lifetime, a balanced budget will become a necessity. The $700 billion defence budget will take a huge hit. If that means the end of USAF's funding for CAP, that may be the end of CAP...
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 27, 2011, 07:11:08 PMOh, really -- The wing administrators and some of the folks at CAP HQ are laid off. Who processes the check out of the Wing Banker's program? Who's paying for the computer bandwidth going into National HQ? What happens to the computer team at National and who keeps the system going for on line cadet & senior testing?, etc, etc, etc,
How much of that is funded by the government as opposed to membership dues?
Complete All Paperwork
Complaints Are Probable
Can Anyone Plan?
Quote from: MikeD on March 28, 2011, 02:24:29 AM
Pretty much all of NASA not working ISS or security at the gates will be sent home. Boeing won't be happy about delays in certification of new aircraft since the FAA outside of ATC and such will be shut down. Good luck trying to get a passport, or retire and start collecting social security. I'm expecting a 2 day shutdown, long enough for some to rile up the base and say "Yehaw we shut down them thar gov'met to show em we mean business!" but not long enough for anyone to really notice the effect. At least I'm hoping it's not that long, I have some younger coworkers (some with a wife and kids) who would be really hurting with a week or so unpaid.
I wouldn't expect passport services to shut down, as they should be fees-funded. Haven't heard anything specific to passport, but I am in the middle of a rather important application with USCIS, and knowledgeable lawyers have said that because most USCIS services are funded by application fees, they will not be impacted by a shutdown.
Passports may be fees-funded, but it's never been the same since 2001, to get one. It takes forever. We can invade a medium sized middle eastern country and build a lot of facilities to support that invasion in the time frame it takes to get 1 passport. (I know, they do lots of them daily).
I do believe that despite all those abandoned posts the last time this happen, most if not all of those people got paid, too. When it was all signed and sealed.
Quote from: a2capt on March 28, 2011, 03:25:49 PMIt takes forever.
That's weird, because I just renewed my passport a few months ago. I got it back in 1.5 weeks without paying for the "express" service.
Quote from: a2capt on March 28, 2011, 03:25:49 PM
Passports may be fees-funded, but it's never been the same since 2001, to get one. It takes forever. We can invade a medium sized middle eastern country and build a lot of facilities to support that invasion in the time frame it takes to get 1 passport. (I know, they do lots of them daily).
I do believe that despite all those abandoned posts the last time this happen, most if not all of those people got paid, too. When it was all signed and sealed.
Seriously, you should try some other countries. In order for me to renew my Canadian passport, I have to file a full application (no such thing as a "renewal"), send off my old passport and wait 8-10 weeks. There is no way to expedite from outside of Canada (only way to expedite is to go into a Passport Canada office).
So, here I am, outside the country, with my proof of legal presence gone, for 8-10 weeks. Talk about an uncomfortable situation.
Oh, and we have to do it ever 5 years, not 10.
I have two serious questions about the efficacy of CAP. 1) Are we worth the money? How much money do we cost per life saved, and could our mission be better handled by local SAR teams with no cost to the Federal taxpayer? (I know this ignores our Cadet Program's value) and 2) Where is the Constitutional Authority for the Congress to allocate funds and Charter CAP?
Major Lord
Even as a measure of our Emergency Services mission, a comparison of dollars spent to lives saved is dubious because our contribution is to the overall effort in the response to emergencies. And the Congress's authority to charter and fund CAP is found in Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution.
Quote from: Major Lord on March 28, 2011, 05:03:35 PM
I have two serious questions about the efficacy of CAP. 1) Are we worth the money? How much money do we cost per life saved, and could our mission be better handled by local SAR teams with no cost to the Federal taxpayer? (I know this ignores our Cadet Program's value) and 2) Where is the Constitutional Authority for the Congress to allocate funds and Charter CAP?
Major Lord
For #2:
Article 1, Section 8:
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
The USAF is organized under this section of the US Constitution as they are land-based they come under the "armies" clause. Even if you were to argue that we are not fully part of the USAF, the Congress has the authority "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers,", and it can be argued that having a civilian auxiliary of the USAF is proper to the execution of that power. That takes care of the "Chartering" part of the question.
The Congress can spend money on just about anything they choose under the "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;" part of the Constitution.
Okay, so if we argue that that the "reasonable and necessary" clause is our basis for existence ( and I think the thread addressing the question "are we part of the military has disposed of the previous question) The question still stands: Is CAP objectively worth Federal funding? The subjective standard of "our total contribution to the mission" is pretty fluffy, and sounds like an attempt to deflect the question of whether we really should be federally funded ( and there are other options). The R&N Clause is about as abused the Commerce Clause ( Heck, if we don't mind using the same Constitutional Authority as Internment Camps, Avocado Advisory Boards, and funding driving schools for the blind, I guess we should be happy) I am not asking if CAP should be blown to hades, but whether our supposed cost savings to the taxpayers are valid. ( CAP has created or saved over 10,000,000 adorable puppies is not a sufficient argument) Which Federal program would you cut to save CAP?
Major Lord
Our funding is not really competing with other programs, we are a line-item of the USAF budget, so it would not be a matter of
which other independent program but what to cut internal to the USAF.
In the grande scheme of the USAF we are penny rounding.
Quote from: Major Lord on March 28, 2011, 06:52:34 PM
Okay, so if we argue that that the "reasonable and necessary" clause is our basis for existence ( and I think the thread addressing the question "are we part of the military has disposed of the previous question) The question still stands: Is CAP objectively worth Federal funding? The subjective standard of "our total contribution to the mission" is pretty fluffy, and sounds like an attempt to deflect the question of whether we really should be federally funded ( and there are other options). The R&N Clause is about as abused the Commerce Clause ( Heck, if we don't mind using the same Constitutional Authority as Internment Camps, Avocado Advisory Boards, and funding driving schools for the blind, I guess we should be happy) I am not asking if CAP should be blown to hades, but whether our supposed cost savings to the taxpayers are valid. ( CAP has created or saved over 10,000,000 adorable puppies is not a sufficient argument) Which Federal program would you cut to save CAP?
Major Lord
The Necessary & Proper Clause is not, in itself, a grant of power. It allows the feds to regulate items that are connected to their enumerated powers. It's not that it's been read as broadly as the Interstate Commerce clause, but that it's been used to read the interstate commerce clause too broadly. Now, it can be debated (and you'll be surprised to learn, that I mostly agree with you) whether that is an appropriate reading of the N&P Clause, but for the moment, it stands as the law.
That said, CAP is far more closely related to the "armies and navy clause" than growing wheat for consumption on your own farm is connected to Interstate Commerce (see Wickard v. Filburn - http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0317_0111_ZS.html), so I have very few doubts with respect to the legal authority for Congress to charter CAP.
The General Welfare clause has been used to justify all manner of federal spending, even if you set aside the power under the armies and navy clause to appropriate money. The entirety of Social Security and Medicare sit upon the General Welfare clause along with the 16th Amendment (16th because they collect money via a tax on income, General Welfare permits the spending of the monies thus received).
If the government wants more money (which they do), then they will do as humans do:
wave their magic wand and spend us out of debt. ::)
Serious question on the topic of CAP and potential government shutdown:
If money is previously allocated from NHQ for a training evolution, would a government shutdown still stop it from happening? Would it even if the money wasn't previously allocated?
Our Compliance Inspection is this weekend - not that I'm hoping, or anything. . . I'd rather put it behind us as scheduled, but I have to ask.
Oh, and we have asked up the chain of command, but no definitive response, yet.
Quote from: joemurffy on April 07, 2011, 05:04:15 PM
Serious question on the topic of CAP and potential government shutdown:
If money is previously allocated from NHQ for a training evolution, would a government shutdown still stop it from happening? Would it even if the money wasn't previously allocated?
Our Compliance Inspection is this weekend - not that I'm hoping, or anything. . . I'd rather put it behind us as scheduled, but I have to ask.
Oh, and we have asked up the chain of command, but no definitive response, yet.
My wing has a large exercise scheduled for tomorrow. It is going ahead as scheduled... I don't know if that answers your question or not.
ILWG Spring Encampment is OPSNORMAL regardless of the budget situation per my discussion this morning with the Chief who acts as our liaison.
That implies the RTC will also be OPSNORMAL.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 07, 2011, 06:13:09 PM
ILWG Spring Encampment is OPSNORMAL regardless of the budget situation per my discussion this morning with the Chief who acts as our liaison.
That implies the RTC will also be OPSNORMAL.
That is because the military won't shut down - though they also won't be paid. Military personnel are considered exempt I believe.
The CAP Executive Director clarifies: NHQ will operate as normal, NHQ employees will be paid as normal, government shutdown or not.
Per email sent to NHQ employees today:
QuoteSubject: Possible Government Shutdown
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 15:38:01 -0500
From: REasterling@capnhq.gov
Sent on behalf of Mr. Don Rowland
All employees,
Many of you have seen the recent news reports and newspaper headlines covering the increasing possibility of a Federal government shutdown when the Continuing Resolution expires this Friday, 8 April, due to the lack of agreement within Congress on a final budget for FY11. As I stated in my previous e-mail when we faced this possibility on 4 March, if this does happen I expect the duration of a government shutdown to be brief.
I would like to reiterate that CAP is not a government agency, which means that a shutdown will not affect us the same way it will affect the operations of government agencies. CAP has funds to continue operations into May at our current spending levels. I expect there will be a final resolution to the federal budget which will allow us to continue operations beyond this date.
Please plan on continuing day-to-day business as usual and know that you will be paid for any time that you are asked to work, even if there is a government shutdown. We will provide additional details as information becomes available, and do not hesitate to contact me or your director if there are any questions that you would like answered.
Thank you,
Don Rowland
Word has been received that all CG Aux activities will be suspended if a shutdown happens.
I presume we will have some impacts. State Directors are USAF employees, and unlikely to be considered essential...they're also civilian employees of the Department of the AF, so not military per se.
Wing Admins are paid for with appropriated funds too IIRC. Again, unlikely they'd be deemed essential.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 07, 2011, 08:57:12 PM
Word has been received that all CG Aux activities will be suspended if a shutdown happens.
Why's that? Does the Auxiliary cost them more then their worth? I would think any volunteer program would be essential to the mission in a budget crisis. Count up all the Volunteer hours and do a cost benefit analysis...it's worth the buck to operate a program that is easily worth over 10x that.
No specific explanation was given, but keep in mind that a lot of Aux work involves payments (fuel reimbursements for example) and also potential costs to the CG if Auxies are injured or injure someone else while on duty.
Quote from: JeffDG on April 07, 2011, 09:00:01 PM
I presume we will have some impacts. State Directors are USAF employees, and unlikely to be considered essential...they're also civilian employees of the Department of the AF, so not military per se.
Wing Admins are paid for with appropriated funds too IIRC. Again, unlikely they'd be deemed essential.
OPSNORMAL for for CAP-USAF, at least as far as State Directors and CAP-RAPS, per my wing's a few minutes ago.
I suspect that the CGAUX situation may be related to the Anti-Deficiency Act.
- john
I hope you all realize that even though some people will be designated as essential, and thus must come to work, it dosent change the fact that the government is shut down and thus cant do anything. DHS, HHS, FEMA, Treasury, etc... all of their EOCs in Washington will have people on duty but their only duty will be to answer phones and tell people "sorry, we cant help you until the shutdown is over". All contracts are being suspended so contractors cant come in to work even if they are essential. If the shutdown lasts more than 2 weeks I will be unable to get food, gas, rent, etc...I have to cash in my vacation and sick days to get paid. According to the OPM guidelines we cant get temp jobs or unemployment while this thing lasts either.
Quote from: nesagsar on April 07, 2011, 09:34:38 PM
I hope you all realize that even though some people will be designated as essential, and thus must come to work, it dosent change the fact that the government is shut down and thus cant do anything. DHS, HHS, FEMA, Treasury, etc... all of their EOCs in Washington will have people on duty but their only duty will be to answer phones and tell people "sorry, we cant help you until the shutdown is over".
That's not quite right. For example, FAA air traffic controllers are essential, and will report to work and provide normal services. I'd imagine the same is true for ICE, TSA, etc. I work for the Air Force and when they called our AMD commander to ask how many of us were essential, he said "all of 'em". We'll be here, moving airplanes just like the other 364 days of the year. It just means that while we are working, there is no money to pay us... however the government, by certifying us as essential and telling us to come to work, is issuing us an IOU that we'll be paid out of future funding.
Quote from: nesagsar on April 07, 2011, 09:34:38 PM
All contracts are being suspended so contractors cant come in to work even if they are essential.
Not totally correct either. I went and did some reading on this - since I worked in a contract tower for a while, I wondered how this would affact them? The answer is it won't, since contract work can be certified as essential as well, or if funding is coming from sources other than this year's budget alone:
Q: Does all contract work stop?
A: Contract work can continue if it is funded by previous years' appropriations, by multiple-year appropriations, or through revolving funds. Agencies can also allow work to continue for:
• Activities they have statutory authority over, such as the Defense Department's authority to contract for needed food, fuel and medical supplies.
• Specific duties imposed on an agency, such as paying Social Security benefits, which are not funded through annual appropriations.
• Emergencies involving the safety of human life or the protection of property.
That's from the Federal Times.
My contractor has been paid for the next year but we were all told that they wont even let us into the building despite the fact that we are all FEROs. FAA must have very different rules than FEMA and HHS.
Obviously to anyone affected directly, whether financially, ruined vacation, or an important court process that might be stalled, etc., this is a big deal...
...but...
...to the vast majority of Americans, the status of Twitter, or a Facebook outage, will be more important than a government shutdown. Few people will see any direct impact beyond mild inconvenience.
Sadder still is the fact that it means nothing. Not a dollar will be saved, the budgets won't be cut anywhere, and we will still have a huge deficit.
It is all political posturing.
Apparently the last 2 government shutdowns cost $1-2 billion dollars.
It may not impact "most" Americans, but it will have a direct negative impact on millions.
Meh, a billion here, a billion there...talk to me when it is real money...
Quote from: Eclipse on April 08, 2011, 12:49:43 AM
It is all political posturing.
Big time. Isn't it amazing that the government closes down at 12:01 AM EDT on April 9 - Saturday morning! So there's two free days to posture, then swoop in and "save" the day on Sunday afternoon.
While Obama practices feigning indifference at Colonial Wiliamsburg...
Quote from: AirDX on April 08, 2011, 03:25:27 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 08, 2011, 12:49:43 AM
It is all political posturing.
Big time. Isn't it amazing that the government closes down at 12:01 AM EDT on April 9 - Saturday morning! So there's two free days to posture, then swoop in and "save" the day on Sunday afternoon.
While Obama practices feigning indifference at Colonial Wiliamsburg...
As a FERO at an EOC I was scheduled to work during the weekend. I will be losing 20 hours of work (and 20 hours of pay) even if the government figures this out on Monday.
Well, the official word just slid down the poop chute:
CAP Leaders and Members,
Many of you have seen the news reports and newspaper headlines covering the increasing possibility of a Federal government shutdown when the continuing resolution expires today, Friday, 8 April at midnight.
Even though CAP is not a government agency, a shutdown is still going to have an effect on CAP. Part of this is funding related and the other part is because CAP-USAF will have limited manpower during the shutdown and they won't be able to provide as much oversight, liaison and support as they are required to by Air Force regulations. Regarding funding, CAP has all the money we will get until a new resolution or law is signed by the President. CAP's guidance from the Air Force is to prioritize our activities to ensure life saving, national security, disaster response and other important Air Force assigned missions can be accomplished. The Air Force has also asked CAP to "efficiently execute available appropriated funds" so this will require CAP to restrict corporate missions too because federal funds are used to offset some maintenance expenses. Conserving maintenance funds will help CAP meet the mission requirements specified by the Air Force.
Therefore, if Congress does not reach agreement on either a Fiscal Year 2011 budget or a continuing resolution by midnight local time on Friday, 8 April and the federal government shuts down, the only missions that CAP is authorized to perform are:
1. All operational missions authorized in WMIRS by 1st, 11th or 13th Air Force. All of these missions use mission number sequences like this example: 11-1-XXXX.
2. All operational SAR missions authorized in WMIRS by AFRCC or the AK RCC. All of these missions use mission number sequences of 11-M-XXX or RCC-11-XXXX.
3. Corporate missions with the sole purpose of providing emergency response services to state and local agencies. (As a reminder, federal agencies cannot be supported in corporate status.)
CAP leaders should contact the NOC (888-211-1812, ext. 300) if they have a critical mission not mentioned above they feel requires AF and/or CAP consideration for approval. These missions will be reviewed by NHQ and CAP-USAF on a case-by-case basis. Training missions, cadet orientation flights, proficiency flying, and A9 flights to maintenance facilities are all examples of missions CAP will unfortunately not be able to perform until Congress resolves the budget crisis or extends the deadline. This flying restriction encompasses all categories of flight, including most corporate missions.
Please note, if aircraft have already departed from a home station to a training location before the news of a government shutdown has been received, the training (or other activity) should be terminated and the crews should return to their home station. The return trip home will be part of the original training mission.
We will provide additional details as more information becomes available. Do not hesitate to contact us or the NOC if there are any questions. We are hopeful the duration of a government shutdown, if it happens, will be brief. Thank you for your understanding and patience as we deal with the major challenges that a federal government shutdown entails.
Sincerely,
Maj Gen Amy Courter CAP/CC, Mr. Don Rowland NHQ/EX & Col William Ward, CAP-USAF/CC
Yes see above, pretty sad state of affairs for everyone concerned, especially active duty personnel.
BTW I understand that reserve training will also be cancelled if not resolved tonight.
RM
Does ANY of this impact the Cadet side of things such as regular meetings?
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 09, 2011, 01:17:40 AM
Does ANY of this impact the Cadet side of things such as regular meetings?
This shouldn't have any effect on regular meetings. There is no funding for meetings.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 09, 2011, 01:42:29 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 09, 2011, 01:17:40 AM
Does ANY of this impact the Cadet side of things such as regular meetings?
This shouldn't have any effect on regular meetings. There is no funding for meetings.
I'd be a bit cautious on the statement above. IF you are meeting in a federal or military facility you may be locked out because realistically there's no funding to pay for the heat & lights you would be using, and it's also possible that security may actually be reduced. No cadet flying either, probably for a heck of a long time!!!
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 09, 2011, 02:01:45 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 09, 2011, 01:42:29 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 09, 2011, 01:17:40 AM
Does ANY of this impact the Cadet side of things such as regular meetings?
This shouldn't have any effect on regular meetings. There is no funding for meetings.
I'd be a bit cautious on the statement above. IF you are meeting in a federal or military facility you may be locked out because realistically there's no funding to pay for the heat & lights you would be using, and it's also possible that security may actually be reduced. No cadet flying either, probably for a heck of a long time!!!
RM
That is understood by me, many units meet at guard armories or other such places. Arrangements will need to be made to figure out where to meet in that instance, but I am sure that most will be able to take care of the issue. Flying we all know is put on hold, thank you for posting the memorandum above, I had been looking all day in eservices to see if anything was being posted.
Do what you can to continue about your regular business, we all need to stay vigilant.
Deal reached to keep government open for another week. President Obama to speak in the next ten minutes.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 09, 2011, 03:00:10 AM
Deal reached to keep government open for another week. President Obama to speak in the next ten minutes.
Also known as
Tune in next week, same time, same place, same dilemma!
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 09, 2011, 03:06:37 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 09, 2011, 03:00:10 AM
Deal reached to keep government open for another week. President Obama to speak in the next ten minutes.
Also known as Tune in next week, same time, same place, same dilemma!
At least we get to continue to operate in CAP for another week without further disruptions.
Well, they've already in effect cancelled "everything" ... "indefinitely" that had to do with spending, so.. They killed tomorrow's orientation flights, in theory the weather is gonna suck anyway ... so.
At least this time is' both fiscal and actual WX suckage.
What was killed? Gen Courter's letter listed steps that would be taken if there was a shutdown. It didn't happen.
Some Wings, including mine, send out notices that definitely did not read "if", but rather - NOW, and pulled the plug on a few weekend activities already.
..and just as I type this, "O-RIDES MAY RESUME" has just been received. Too late for those who called everyone yesterday and cancelled it.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 07, 2011, 08:57:12 PM
Word has been received that all CG Aux activities will be suspended if a shutdown happens.
Could it be that the "Utopian" relationship often cited here between the USCG AUX and the US Coast Coast Guard does have an unseen draw back? As I recall, a USCG Auxie is considered "in the Coast Guard," as a simplistic expression" when on a mission.
No. They're no different than CAP on an AFAM when it comes right down to it. Don't see it as a "relationship" issue at all, just a peek at what is considered "essential"..... I heard a story on the radio today about the last shut-down and they apparently shut down military recruiting for that one...
I don't think anyone would describe the Aux-CG relationship as utopian though it certainly is orders of magnitude better and closer than the CAP-AF relationship.
Many squadrons would show up anyways. Not like it will hurt anything.
This weekend the topic was close at hand, despite the fact that the base would not see much effect. Backchannel and rumor indicated that
there were only a handful of people working on base that would have had a free weekend if things shut down.
With that said, however, our State Director was told he could not participate in the event of a shut down, but the CAP-RAPS would.
We spent the weekend blissfully unaware of the outside world, as cell phone and internet signals were literally zero on our "ship" - even to the point
that an inversion layer literally fogged-out the base to near zero.
It was really cool.
We had a tense evening at mission base Friday night when the wing CC delivered the news. Our ground ops wouldn't have been affected but the aircraft would have been sent home in the event the congress couldn't work it out.