Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

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Nick

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 15, 2018, 01:42:18 AM
So, basically, if you want to wear your badges, you've got to sew on tapes/rank.
Yeah basically. The AFI is silent on how to affix occupational badges, so theoretically it could be affixed either way. But if you're going to sew on both the hook and loop sides of Velcro for your badge, you might as well just sew down everything.
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
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Nick

Quote from: Spam on September 14, 2018, 04:41:26 AM
B/ Customer argument.
The Army is not our customer. Neither is the Navy. Neither are the Marines. If the USAF makes the decision to wear the flag, then and only then should we consider the ramifications.
But the AF *has* made the decision to wear the flag, so I'm not sure why this is a "if then and only then" comment.

Personally I don't see the need for CAP to wear a US flag (maybe with a very fringe exception for overseas units if they can even wear BDU/ABU, I can't remember). When was the last time we left the US in a utility uniform and needed to distinguish our country of origin?
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

SarDragon

Yes, the overseas units can wear the utility uniforms. We had ODs and BDUs at my unit in Japan.

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Dave Bowles
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Gunsotsu


CAP9907

Quote from: Gunsotsu on September 15, 2018, 02:59:48 AM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.

Yes indeed.. lots of talk about a 'possible' (not probable) OCP uniform transition when we are not even halfway into the ABU transition. Good thing I have my popcorn...
21 yrs of service

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Hawk200

Quote from: Nick on September 15, 2018, 01:56:23 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 15, 2018, 01:42:18 AM
So, basically, if you want to wear your badges, you've got to sew on tapes/rank.
Yeah basically. The AFI is silent on how to affix occupational badges, so theoretically it could be affixed either way. But if you're going to sew on both the hook and loop sides of Velcro for your badge, you might as well just sew down everything.
You're right as far as the Air Force being silent. The guidance is strange. The newest 36-2903 released in July just says "Occupational badges may be worn centered ½ inch above the USAF tape using spice brown embroidery on the OCP background."  It doesn't say whether the badges are sewn directly or if they can be affixed to Velcro.

Honestly, I hope the Air Force doesn't do the "badges on a patch" thing. I can see that turning into a hot mess; no two people will have them the same way. I remember the changes concerning the old ASNP worn on BDUs; once they started with putting the ASNP a half inch up from the pocket, it seemed like no two people had the same "half inch."

For all we know, the Air Force may actually allow occupational badges to be sewn on with tapes/rank that are Velcro. When the Army ACU change allowed embroidered badges, it wasn't clear as to allowing the sewn badges with Velcro tapes/rank. I saw a few people with embroidered badges but Velcro tapes/rank, and it didn't look too bad. I thought it was odd to sew on just badges, but appearance wise it was OK.

I think the Army has the most practical idea; if you sew on badges, sew on tapes and rank. Airmen have pretty much always sewn on their badges, all the way back to the old green fatigues. There will probably be a clarification published in the next few months. It would probably still be a bit cheaper, considering the sleeve pocket patches will be Velcro.

Luis R. Ramos

"16 pages..." My thoughts exactly. And when or if CAP NHQ says "you can," there will be 32 pages on why did CAP approve so and so when members expressly stated they did not want this or that, and preferred that or this.


>:D


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Hawk200

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 12:43:45 PM
"16 pages..." My thoughts exactly. And when or if CAP NHQ says "you can," there will be 32 pages on why did CAP approve so and so when members expressly stated they did not want this or that, and preferred that or this.


>:D

People have their opinions on things, and if they don't get it the way they'd like, they do have the right to ask questions, even if they don't like the answer. An answer you don't like is still an answer, and unless the answer doesn't make sense, many people will let it go.

I think a lot of CAP personnel would like some input on many things in CAP. Part of personal investment in the organization, which results in pride in the organization because they helped shape it. The Air Force takes input on it's own uniforms,  and many airmen have submitted ideas that got approved. It's nothing unprecedented when it comes to CAP.

When it comes to CAP, the primary exposure that results in the public at large learning of CAP is their seeing the uniform. It gets teens and young people interested. Members want the uniform to look good, so they suggest their ideas.

There are always different ideas, so sometimes the discussion results in compromises or even changes in viewpoints. The end result is people taking pride in possibly having shaped their organization, even if their idea isn't adopted.

Luis R. Ramos

There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.
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Nick

Quote from: Gunsotsu on September 15, 2018, 02:59:48 AM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.
Yep. I have no doubt in my mind that CAP is at least 8 years, at a minimum, from being authorized the OCP. But in that 16 pages was some good knowledge sharing for those who have interest in the military's uniforms, and perhaps one or two of the people here today may very well be on the NUC in 8+ years when CAP-USAF drops the tasker on how to create a distinctive OCP.
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

Hawk200

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 03:20:59 PM
There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Discussing it publicly is not an issue. There's no operational secrets being discussed, no FOUO type of concerns.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 03:20:59 PMDon't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 
Good point, and valid idea. In order to present a well thought out proposal, people will probably get together to discuss it, find common ideas, make suggestions or compromise. And they'll discuss it on places like CAP Talk.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 03:20:59 PMIn any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.
Maybe so, but people still have the right to discuss it when they wish.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 03:20:59 PMTelling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."
I don't believe I told you anything of that sort. If I did, show me. I'll own up to it, and I will admit I was wrong, and apologize for it.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 03:20:59 PM
And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.
Now, I know I didn't say that, or even think it. I may disagree with you on something, but I do not believe that you don't have the right to air your opinion.

However, I'll continue to discuss with other members on this board as long as the thread is active. If it bothers you, that's not my or anyone else's problem. Don't know what to tell you there.

Eclipse

Quote from: Nick on September 15, 2018, 03:23:55 PM
Quote from: Gunsotsu on September 15, 2018, 02:59:48 AM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.
Yep. I have no doubt in my mind that CAP is at least 8 years, at a minimum, from being authorized the OCP. But in that 16 pages was some good knowledge sharing for those who have interest in the military's uniforms, and perhaps one or two of the people here today may very well be on the NUC in 8+ years when CAP-USAF drops the tasker on how to create a distinctive OCP.

My over / under would be that no cadet today will ever wear OCP as a cadet.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: Eclipse on September 15, 2018, 04:15:42 PM
Quote from: Nick on September 15, 2018, 03:23:55 PM
Quote from: Gunsotsu on September 15, 2018, 02:59:48 AM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.
Yep. I have no doubt in my mind that CAP is at least 8 years, at a minimum, from being authorized the OCP. But in that 16 pages was some good knowledge sharing for those who have interest in the military's uniforms, and perhaps one or two of the people here today may very well be on the NUC in 8+ years when CAP-USAF drops the tasker on how to create a distinctive OCP.

My over / under would be that no cadet today will ever wear OCP as a cadet.
That's probably pretty likely. But, it might make them stick around after going senior.  :)

Retention is just as important as recruiting.

Hopefully, by the time they're authorized, I'll have a few left in the closet that I can dust off and throw on.

SarDragon

OK, folks (no names, this time), let's keep it civil.

If you disagree, that's fine. But don't try to change everyone else's mind; just read and move on. Or just move on.

If you are on your phone reading this stuff, it's two clicks to mark the thread read. On my computer, it's about the same.

"Lighten up, Francis!"
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Nick

Quote from: Eclipse on September 15, 2018, 04:15:42 PM
My over / under would be that no cadet today will ever wear OCP as a cadet.
I agree and I'll take the over.
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

Gunsotsu

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 15, 2018, 05:50:31 PM

That's probably pretty likely. But, it might make them stick around after going senior.  :)

Retention is just as important as recruiting.

This tired trope again? The "senior members are here so they can cosplay" argument. Any senior member who bases their involvement on what fancy frock they get to wear is a detriment to this organization.

Luis R. Ramos

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PHall

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 03:20:59 PM
There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.


No, you DO NOT write the NUC directly. There is a procedure in the 39-1 to make uniform change suggestions.
You wanna suggest a change? Put it in writing and follow the procedure.

Spam

Quote from: PHall on September 15, 2018, 06:54:39 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 03:20:59 PM
There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.


No, you DO NOT write the NUC directly. There is a procedure in the 39-1 to make uniform change suggestions.
You wanna suggest a change? Put it in writing and follow the procedure.

Just a short comment. The process does work. Based on conversations here on CAP Talk I submitted some cold weather uniform item recommendations for ABUs and they were approved in an update IMC. The NUC was receptive.

You just got to slide into that DM correctly...

:o



Luis R. Ramos

I am not against military uniform discussions, as this provides knowledge that others may need.

However many such discussions evolve into "CAP should wear boots of the same color and type that Ma Blue does because..." or "CAP should wear badges in same color / types that Ma Blue uses because..."

Follow the same example that the branches use. The Air Force, Marines, Army, and Navy use different uniforms, different patches, different insignia.

Therefore CAP and Air Force should be allowed different uniforms.

Saying that CAP and Air Force should wear the same uniform sounds like "I want to be in the CAP for the uniform."


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