Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

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supertigerCH

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 03, 2018, 04:33:42 PM

Speaking of tapes. I highly doubt we'd end up swapping tape color for another go around. I think this color is here to stay, at least for a good while. Keep in mind that the ultramarine looked goofy with the BDU's as well. As much as we all probably thought so, we were able to live with it. If I could chose a color myself, I'd go for the OCP tapes, but with white/silver lettering. That would still be distinctive but wouldn't look crazy. What say ye on that option?


I have a feeling you're probably right about the current (dark Air Force Blue) name tapes.  Sure it's always possible that we might be surprised with another change in the coming years... but I think you're correct that they're going to be around for a while (regardless of whether we move to a new field uniform or not).

My thoughts on that... overall they are a decent color/shade.  A good improvement from the ultramarine blue.  Yes, of course there are a few colors that would be even better -- but when you start to imagine all of the other colors/shades we could get stuck with... what we have now is pretty good.

N6RVT

Quote from: CAP9907 on August 31, 2018, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: SCE124 on August 31, 2018, 07:58:42 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 31, 2018, 05:58:58 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.



Again, IMO, There really should be no reason why CAP cannot adopt the Coyote Brown boots! I guess we will wait and see what comes to be!

And IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?

And would you have wanted to buy those green boots when they were full price only to see them become obsolete now?  They will never go to anything else.

Gads.  Every time I hear "Green Boots" I can't help but think of the guy on Everest.

Hawk200

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 03, 2018, 04:33:42 PM
So what I've seen so far is many don't want a flag patch because we don't operate OCONUS. For that Id simply state that the reason I added it is as a national pride item. That said, in the sense of the reason some of that is worn on USAF utilities it makes sense whereas that was the only other reason I could  come up with. I'll remove it from my draft.
I'd say keep it. This particular uniform on the military side has it, and I've always like wearing the flag, for the  military or Civil Air Patrol.

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 03, 2018, 04:33:42 PM
Boots are still split quite a bit. I don't have an opinion either way, but I do think that going Coyote would affect those who wear corporate AND USAF style uniforms. I'm going to leave it with both options in my draft to be chosen by a higher up once it's sent out. If I had to choose, I'd lean toward going Coyote... as we'd fit in a little better. Again, that would only affect USAF style utility uniforms. So, FDU, OCP. Corp still uses black, and black boots could still be worn with blues as is currently in there.
I'd lean toward coyote, too.

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 03, 2018, 04:33:42 PMI really like what I've seen regarding patches. I like having a Wing or NCSA patch on the right panel, and squadron/unit patch on the left, with any tabs for military service over that patch and NSCA "tabs" over their respective NCSA patch on the right.
NCSA tabs? Is this a reference to the concept discussed concerning Hawk tabs being kind of "add on" tabs to the Hawk Mountain patch? If so, I like the idea, I think it's better than what I had in mind.

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 03, 2018, 04:33:42 PMI know adding the name patch at the back of the hat as the AF is doing (and Army has been doing forever) may look a bit odd with the current tapes. I'm still on the fence about this, but it would be another "distinguishing" feature of a CAP OCP.
I was kind of stuck on that myself. (Unless we wanted to allow people to use OCP tape/colors that the Air Force uses? Probably wouldn't fly, but I can dream.)

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 03, 2018, 04:33:42 PMSpeaking of tapes. I highly doubt we'd end up swapping tape color for another go around. I think this color is here to stay, at least for a good while. Keep in mind that the ultramarine looked goofy with the BDU's as well. As much as we all probably thought so, we were able to live with it. If I could chose a color myself, I'd go for the OCP tapes, but with white/silver lettering. That would still be distinctive but wouldn't look crazy. What say ye on that option?
I'd do tan/lighter brown thread, rather than white, but if AF approved white on OCP, I'd wear it. (I don't think it will fly, but I would wear it.) The only thing we'd have to deal with there is badges. White(or light color) thread on OCP cloth? I don't think the Air Force is going to permit pin on badges, so that's probably not going to be an option for CAP. (Would be nice and convenient though.)

While I was active Air Force, I'd simply go home, change my shirt and hat, and be ready for the CAP meeting. If we go with distinctive patches/tapes, a person could probably get away with just having patches and a hat (If they were Army or Air Force, anyway.) Of course, you wouldn't be able to sew on any badges, but it would work just fine.) I like the idea of people being able to do that so easily.

(I am still thinking about ordering some tapes with Velcro in the colors I thought of for mock up purposes, I just don't have any OCPs yet. If they don't get adopted, I'll stick them on back of my backpack.)

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 03, 2018, 07:07:44 PM

I'd do tan/lighter brown thread, rather than white, but if AF approved white on OCP, I'd wear it. (I don't think it will fly, but I would wear it.) The only thing we'd have to deal with there is badges. White(or light color) thread on OCP cloth? I don't think the Air Force is going to permit pin on badges, so that's probably not going to be an option for CAP. (Would be nice and convenient though.)

While I was active Air Force, I'd simply go home, change my shirt and hat, and be ready for the CAP meeting. If we go with distinctive patches/tapes, a person could probably get away with just having patches and a hat (If they were Army or Air Force, anyway.) Of course, you wouldn't be able to sew on any badges, but it would work just fine.) I like the idea of people being able to do that so easily.

(I am still thinking about ordering some tapes with Velcro in the colors I thought of for mock up purposes, I just don't have any OCPs yet. If they don't get adopted, I'll stick them on back of my backpack.)

This is something that I like as well. Can you imagine with the boots and uniform being the same, all a member would have to do is swap out the tapes, rank, and patches and go from AF to CAP without changing? All you'd probably have to do as a Senior is swap out a $8 hat. I like that, even though I don't have to deal with it anymore. It may also motivate a little for Active AF members to come help out CAP units since they wouldn't have to spend an arm and a leg for CAP specific uniforms/sewing etc.

Same goes for issued uniforms from squadrons. Why spend all that time sewing a uniform up for a fresh cadet when you can simply slap the tapes on and go to town on the important stuff?
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Gunsotsu on September 03, 2018, 03:58:05 PM
This should be the policy:

Cadets wear the same uniform as USAF within one year of adoption. Seniors do not wear USAF uniforms, corporate only.  Adopt navy blue or OD green OCP style for field uniforms. Done.

"But our membership will dwindle if seniors can't AF cosplay!"

If wearing a uniform similar to the Air Force is "cosplay," then why allow cadets to wear ABUs?

Gunsotsu


Shuman 14

The Army is using Black thread for NAME and US ARMY tapes.

The Air Force is  using Brown thread for NAME and US AIR FORCE tapes.

Both are using Black and Brown threads for Rank Insignia.

The Army is using Black thread as the primary color for Badges with Brown as the secondary color when required.

The Air Force is using Brown thread as the primary color for Badges.

Perhaps Civil Air Patrol could use Blue thread on OCP for everything: NAME, CIVIL AIR PATROL, Rank and Badges.

The only issue might be the 2LT and MAJ ranks.

One thought might be to edge the Brown 2LT bar and MAJ oak leaf with Blue thread. Another option would be to copy what many State Guard/State Militia/State Military Reserves do, add State Initials under the Rank Insignia. So, in addition to Blue thread for the Normally Black thread Ranks add "CAP" in Blue thread under the Rank Insignia for all.

Truthfully, the White/Gold thread on Dark Blue tape/cloth does not look bad on OCP so Civil Air Patrol could just keep doing that and add Velcro as required.

I've never seen black boots worn with OCP so I can't speak to looks good/bad but I would recommend allow wearing black, tan and coyote brown boots with an extended wear out period and then require coyote brown only after that.

Just my thoughts.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Hawk200

Quote from: shuman14 on September 04, 2018, 07:04:30 PM
Perhaps Civil Air Patrol could use Blue thread on OCP for everything: NAME, CIVIL AIR PATROL, Rank and Badges.

The only issue might be the 2LT and MAJ ranks.
As far as AF BDUs went, silver turned blue, gold turned brown. I do like the idea.

My only concern with it is that we've never had anything subdued with our utilities. I'd love to see this color arrangement, just a little wary that it wouldn't happen. (Partly, because it makes sense.)

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Gunsotsu on September 04, 2018, 06:05:47 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 04, 2018, 02:29:55 PM
If wearing a uniform similar to the Air Force is "cosplay," then why allow cadets to wear ABUs?

Here you go.

Well, thanks for that. I'm so much wiser now having read that  ::)

You made the argument that it's cosplay for seniors but not cadets. Reinforce that argument.

The way I see it, uniforms are used to support cadet training. Could that training as easily be accomplished through the wear of a non-Air Force-style uniform (i.e., unique to CAP)?

We use this term "Air Force-style" when, in fact, it is not the uniform of the U.S. Air Force. It's the uniform of Civil Air Patrol. The Air Force set guidelines on its wear to be distinct from theirs, but it's NOT an Air Force uniform. No Airman in the Air Force wears is, nor are they authorized to wear it, unless in CAP performing CAP functions.

Luis R. Ramos

Sky,

Other people disagree. Using the words "style," "similar," and / or similar words is stating the two uniforms are similar but different. Your comment would be more on the spot if people would say "the Air Force uniform" instead of "an Air Force style uniform." See what I made there?
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Hawk200

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 05, 2018, 02:15:21 PM
We use this term "Air Force-style" when, in fact, it is not the uniform of the U.S. Air Force. It's the uniform of Civil Air Patrol. The Air Force set guidelines on its wear to be distinct from theirs, but it's NOT an Air Force uniform. No Airman in the Air Force wears is, nor are they authorized to wear it, unless in CAP performing CAP functions.

There are probably semantic arguments there, but there really is no need.

Even though we use their uniform, the distinctive insignia does make it ours.

But, we shouldn't stray too far. Keep the association alive.

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2018, 11:02:04 AM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 05, 2018, 02:15:21 PM
We use this term "Air Force-style" when, in fact, it is not the uniform of the U.S. Air Force. It's the uniform of Civil Air Patrol. The Air Force set guidelines on its wear to be distinct from theirs, but it's NOT an Air Force uniform. No Airman in the Air Force wears is, nor are they authorized to wear it, unless in CAP performing CAP functions.

There are probably semantic arguments there, but there really is no need.

Even though we use their uniform, the distinctive insignia does make it ours.

But, we shouldn't stray too far. Keep the association alive.

I agree. I feel that our association to the Air Force via our uniforms, operations and customs & courtesies, etc. is a good thing.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Okayish Aviator

Figured I'd add since I only just saw this while browsing for some new work boots for at home:

https://tacticalgear.com/ocp-uniform

It looks like the new pattern will be commercially available pretty fast based on the quote below. That will further drive down costs.
Quote
Until recently, a commercial license for Scorpion OCP was not available, meaning the only way to get hands on the uniform was through government issue or AAFES stores. The government is now granting commercial licenses for OCP fabric and several manufacturers have begun production. Development of additional garments and accessories such as combat shirts, helmet covers and hats are also underway.

TacticalGear.com is the first place to offer the new uniform in Scorpion OCP. Available now on pre-order, you can shop pants and coats in the approved construction and pattern. Expected ship date 10/31.

They have also compiled a full history as well, which for you history buffs out there you may find interesting.

ADDITIONALLY

https://tacticalgear.com/mens-clothing?kwid=16012&gv=true

Looks like the fire sale on ABU's has begun to get rid of what inventory they had.... I believe we did state this was likely to happen, so it appears within the next couple years it's going to be VERY difficult to find ABU's.

Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Eclipse

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 04:05:38 PM...it appears within the next couple years it's going to be VERY difficult to find ABU's.

Why?

There's no shortage of woodland camo, and that's been off the military table for a decade depending on
how you define "off the table", and VG will continue to be the supplier of record for their CAP-ABU variant.

Shortages are the one thing not a factor in the decision here, and availability at MCSS / AAFES isn't either,
since the majority of members have no access to these outlets.

ABUs will be worn out / cleared out over the next 3 years, some wings with good DRMO access will
see an uptick in availability (most in bizarre / unmatched sizes / patterns / colors with ruined sleeves because of
sewn-on stripes) and retail availability will continue, including the secondary markets.

"That Others May Zoom"

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2018, 04:24:16 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 04:05:38 PM...it appears within the next couple years it's going to be VERY difficult to find ABU's.

Why?

There's no shortage of woodland camo, and that's been off the military table for a decade depending on
how you define "off the table", and VG will continue to be the supplier of record for their CAP-ABU variant.

Shortages are the one thing not a factor in the decision here, and availability at MCSS / AAFES isn't either,
since the majority of members have no access to these outlets.

ABUs will be worn out / cleared out over the next 3 years, some wings with good DRMO access will
see an uptick in availability (most in bizarre / unmatched sizes / patterns / colors with ruined sleeves because of
sewn-on stripes) and retail availability will continue, including the secondary markets.

You forget, all branches at one time used woodland, and for many many years. There is surplus, but even so it was low enough that CAP felt it necessary (if coupled with the fact that the USAF went to the ABU) to make the swap after 10 years. Even if it is still available, it's because it was what I would consider a "popular" pattern. ABU's were phased out after 11? years and only used by one branch. This plus the unpopular nature of the pattern by many will make it harder to find commercially, and the desire by commercial suppliers to keep stock of anything ABU related is sure to be nearly non-existent. CAP will be the only organization using it.

Couple the desire to remain consistent with our AF partners, the availability of the ABU (surplus and commercial stock) on the down swing, and prices of the ABU going up due to low numbers of runs to keep those small stocks furnished (that'll happen after the phase out by the AF is complete), you've got a recipe for some issues for CAP members who wear that uniform style. As a business owner selling products like uniforms, why would I want to spend that money to stock a uniform that almost nobody wants when I have to pay higher prices to stock it since it's not being made for others as well? (I don't own a business like that, but I do run a side business from my job and I have to make decisions like that all the time). My local Surplus store got rid of ABU's as soon as the news dropped and after speaking with the owner, she doesn't plan on buying any more (new or otherwise). I can't blame her.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Eclipse

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 04:37:48 PM
You forget, all branches at one time used woodland, and for many many years. There is surplus, but even so it was low enough that CAP felt it necessary (if coupled with the fact that the USAF went to the ABU) to make the swap after 10 years. Even if it is still available, it's because it was what I would consider a "popular" pattern. ABU's were phased out after 11? years and only used by one branch. This plus the unpopular nature of the pattern by many will make it harder to find commercially, and the desire by commercial suppliers to keep stock of anything ABU related is sure to be nearly non-existent. CAP will be the only organization using it.

It's not a "surplus" (AFAICT), Rothco, Propper, and others continue to manufacture them and sell them.  There is and never has been
any shortage of woodland camo BDUs.

Was there whining from members who had ready-access to MCSS and now were forced to buy them like everyone else?  Yes.
But that's a very small percentage of members, and would probably be even smaller if the uniform rules were properly enforced.

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 04:37:48 PMAs a business owner selling products like uniforms, why would I want to spend that money to stock a uniform that almost nobody wants when I have to pay higher prices to stock it since it's not being made for others as well?

Because you are contractually obligated to do so, which is one of the places the VG relationship benefits CAP.
They sell a non-standard, CAP-specific version of the ABU which should be suitable for all members to wear,
considering VG is supposed to be the official uniform supplier for CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2018, 04:55:19 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 04:37:48 PM
You forget, all branches at one time used woodland, and for many many years. There is surplus, but even so it was low enough that CAP felt it necessary (if coupled with the fact that the USAF went to the ABU) to make the swap after 10 years. Even if it is still available, it's because it was what I would consider a "popular" pattern. ABU's were phased out after 11? years and only used by one branch. This plus the unpopular nature of the pattern by many will make it harder to find commercially, and the desire by commercial suppliers to keep stock of anything ABU related is sure to be nearly non-existent. CAP will be the only organization using it.

It's not a "surplus" (AFAICT), Rothco, Propper, and others continue to manufacture them and sell them.  There is and never has been
any shortage of woodland camo BDUs.

Was there whining from members who had ready-access to MCSS and now were forced to buy them like everyone else?  Yes.
But that's a very small percentage of members, and would probably be even smaller if the uniform rules were properly enforced.

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 04:37:48 PMAs a business owner selling products like uniforms, why would I want to spend that money to stock a uniform that almost nobody wants when I have to pay higher prices to stock it since it's not being made for others as well?

Because you are contractually obligated to do so, which is one of the places the VG relationship benefits CAP.
They sell a non-standard, CAP-specific version of the ABU which should be suitable for all members to wear,
considering VG is supposed to be the official uniform supplier for CAP.

Let me clarify, "surplus" as I meant in my statement was "additional supply" not "used uniforms you can find at surplus stores". This includes new stock from how I meant it. But even so, there is less Woodland going around than there used to be. I think you can probably concede that point at the very least.

But, to drive my point home the rest of the way from what you said... The ABU is NOT the BDU. Nobody but VG is going to want to stock it after this is all over, not in the quantities needed to sustain CAP members. Yes, VG will have it, but CAP will be the only ones wearing it. But, VG doesn't produce it, they only supply from the manufacturers, and they determine which runs of uniforms they want to do and how much to charge the distributors. When CAP becomes the only one wearing it, costs will rise because it won't make sense not to. We're going to have to look into making the swap at some point, and that's been stated several times in this thread.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Eclipse

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
Let me clarify, "surplus" as I meant in my statement was "additional supply" not "used uniforms you can find at surplus stores". This includes new stock from how I meant it. But even so, there is less Woodland going around than there used to be. I think you can probably concede that point at the very least.

"Less", yes.  But "less" ≠ "shortage" in any way which is relevent to CAP, since the same retailers still stock it with no apparent issues,
and most members buy a single garment and wear it for a decade. Combat uniforms designed to be worn 40 hours a week,
don't wear out when they are worn 40 hours a year in a non-austere environment.

It makes your point about the market, but also makes mine about any perceived shortage, and reinforces
the idea that NHQ should be looking for mission-driven / member-centric uniform solutions, not concentrating on affinity,
especially in light of the inability to enforce the regs, defeating the affinity that is sought.

I would also point out that it's always been far harder for members to get blues then field uniforms, especially
service coats, wheel caps, and outerwear, but that lack of sufficient supply chain doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
But, to drive my point home the rest of the way from what you said... The ABU is NOT the BDU. Nobody but VG is going to want to stock it after this is all over, not in the quantities needed to sustain CAP members. Yes, VG will have it, but CAP will be the only ones wearing it. But, VG doesn't produce it, they only supply from the manufacturers, and they determine which runs of uniforms they want to do and how much to charge the distributors. When CAP becomes the only one wearing it, costs will rise because it won't make sense not to. We're going to have to look into making the swap at some point, and that's been stated several times in this thread.

I don't disagree with this on the mean, which is why CAP should take this new opportunity to
normalize the field uniforms either through moving to the CFU or addressing the issues with
the AF leadership to remove the height / weight requirements for the field uniforms and just be done with it already.

Whether that means cadets in camo and adults in dark blue, or some other derivative which provides
a uniform appearance, meet mission mandates, and ends the carousel of clothing, anything is better then the
current situation.

"That Others May Zoom"

Fubar

Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2018, 05:47:26 PMWhether that means cadets in camo and adults in dark blue, or some other derivative which provides
a uniform appearance, meet mission mandates, and ends the carousel of clothing, anything is better then the current situation.

I will point out "better" is completely dependent upon the prioritization of what's important when selecting a uniform. If mission requirements, cost, availability, and stability are important, yeah, let's get everyone on one uniform and move on. But if looking like you belong to the Air Force is the most important factor in uniform selection, well then I don't see the carousel of clothing anytime soon.

I of course know which way Eclipse falls on prioritization.  ;)

TheSkyHornet

So I refer back to my question regarding the comment about Air Force uniforms being a "cosplay" for senior members...

If camouflage is available, in some capacity, why not make it the universal uniform for all of CAP, and we just be distinctive on our own from the Air Force-style uniform? Why have a separate uniform for cadets? What would be the mission intent/end state behind that? Cadets wearing BDUs will all of the goodies on it isn't any different than wearing a blue uniform with all of the same goodies, for inspection and grooming purposes, that is. Really, what would the difference be? If the entire CAP force wore blue BDUs, how would that affect cadet training?

I think the bottom line goes back to it being a recruiting/marketing tool to emulate Air Force in our RECREN programs. It's a TLC subject: Why do cadets join CAP? The uniform is a key element. They wear a military-style uniform because it looks cool. Some learn to respect it over time; others still think it's cool. Is that a bad thing? Not so long as the objectives are accomplished along the way.

I'm fine being mandated either way. To Eclipse's point, pick something and let's move on.