Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Eclipse

^ I know they can't be worn on the FDUs, I was thinking he meant that the Heraldry guidelines
prohibited their existence, which wouldn't be applicable to CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 14, 2018, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 06:25:36 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 06:20:24 PMEven patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.

Not in CAP.

Group patches are not authorized on the Air Force-style FDU.

CAPM 39-1:
Quote8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.

That's what I was referring to. I should have been more specific. Thank you for clarifying.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 07:02:36 PM
^ I know they can't be worn on the FDUs, I was thinking he meant that the Heraldry guidelines
prohibited their existence, which wouldn't be applicable to CAP.

I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Eclipse

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 07:21:06 PM
I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.

It does, and Groups are authorized.

http://history.cap.gov/files/original/69f796595f5ebe2c67634092021ad42e.pdf

"That Others May Zoom"

LSThiker

CAPM 39-1:
Quote8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
QuoteOrganizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::) 

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 07:58:51 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 07:21:06 PM
I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.

It does, and Groups are authorized.

http://history.cap.gov/files/original/69f796595f5ebe2c67634092021ad42e.pdf

Thanks, I was having trouble finding that. I was referring to wear of Group patches on the FDU, not that their existence is prohibited by heraldry. I think that Group patches and unit patches should be authorized for USAF style and Corporate FDU. Unit pride is something that I think is lacking and this potential change with the OCP provides an opportunity to open it up.

Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Okayish Aviator

Quote from: LSThiker on August 14, 2018, 08:21:39 PM
CAPM 39-1:
Quote8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
QuoteOrganizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::)

Our patchwork uniform manual strikes again  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: ;D
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Eclipse

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 08:26:40 PM
Our patchwork uniform manual strikes again  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: ;D

Both literally and figuratively.

"That Others May Zoom"

N6RVT

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 08:26:40 PMBut then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.

Hawk200

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on August 14, 2018, 11:27:13 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 08:26:40 PMBut then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.

I've seen that, too. Although, at the time it was a tab. It looked a little odd with just the tab, no Civil Air Patrol patch. And it was the region commander wearing it.

LSThiker

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on August 14, 2018, 11:27:13 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 08:26:40 PMBut then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.

It may have been intentional in draft form, but it obviously never made it through.  Thus, it should have been removed in final draft form.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
8.3.4.2. Right Breast Pocket. The CAP Command Patch will be worn centered above the
right breast pocket directly opposite the nametag.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
The CFDU will only be worn with the accoutrements and outergarments outlined in this
chapter.

No such exceptions existed for the March 2005 or the July 1997 uniform manuals. 

chuckmilam

The July 1997 manual had some of the best models.  I may be slightly biased.  Also, that one guy totally needed a haircut. 

Hawk200

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 06:20:24 PM
I like the idea of doing Flag (R top sleeve pocket), Wing patch under (R side) or NCSA and on Left side either Sqd or NCSA patch. Only 1 patch per side except when flag is placed above the left patch.

I also think if we get an update to the 39-1 under the new number scheme, we should update the wear of squadron patch with flight suit (with the caveat that any squadron patch worn on the FDU must meet the new heraldry guidelines)....

The Air Force guidance allows a few different patches under the flag, I think an NCSA as an option there would be fine. When it comes to NCSA , I don't see the point in allowing more than one on the uniform. IF someone has more than one, they have to choose one.

I think that the left should be unit patch, no other option. If a unit doesn't have one, then it's blank. I think unit patches are important, and they should be encouraged. I also don't think anything else should preempt it.

As to the top of the left sleeve Velcro, leave it open for now. Maybe duty brassards, or something. But, don't allow a free for all, that can get a little crazy.

I like the idea of squadron patches on flightsuits, never understood why they weren't allowed. I don't think any higher levels of command should take a view of "our patch is more important."

Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 02:51:55 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 06:20:24 PM
I like the idea of doing Flag (R top sleeve pocket), Wing patch under (R side) or NCSA and on Left side either Sqd or NCSA patch. Only 1 patch per side except when flag is placed above the left patch.

I also think if we get an update to the 39-1 under the new number scheme, we should update the wear of squadron patch with flight suit (with the caveat that any squadron patch worn on the FDU must meet the new heraldry guidelines)....

The Air Force guidance allows a few different patches under the flag, I think an NCSA as an option there would be fine. When it comes to NCSA , I don't see the point in allowing more than one on the uniform. IF someone has more than one, they have to choose one.

I think that the left should be unit patch, no other option. If a unit doesn't have one, then it's blank. I think unit patches are important, and they should be encouraged. I also don't think anything else should preempt it.

As to the top of the left sleeve Velcro, leave it open for now. Maybe duty brassards, or something. But, don't allow a free for all, that can get a little crazy.

I like the idea of squadron patches on flightsuits, never understood why they weren't allowed. I don't think any higher levels of command should take a view of "our patch is more important."

Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 02:51:55 PM
Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

Year three of something that should have taken a few hours.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Concept_of_Operations_for_Reenginee_F232A9B140406.pdf
(Thankfully this document is "unclassified")



"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: LSThiker on August 14, 2018, 08:21:39 PM
CAPM 39-1:
Quote8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
QuoteOrganizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::)

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.


Quote from: DocJekyll on August 15, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Is this a wish list?

LSThiker

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 15, 2018, 06:38:43 PM

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.

Yes, I already stated this, and yet attachment 4 specifically includes that organizational patches are allowed to be worn on the right sleeve on both the USAF-style and Corporate Flight Suits.  So what is your point?

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: LSThiker on August 15, 2018, 07:06:43 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 15, 2018, 06:38:43 PM

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.

Yes, I already stated this, and yet attachment 4 specifically includes that organizational patches are allowed to be worn on the right sleeve on both the USAF-style and Corporate Flight Suits.  So what is your point?

We might be going in circles over something that we're in cohorts of.


Okayish Aviator

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 15, 2018, 06:38:43 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 15, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Is this a wish list?

It was more a clarification of the above post, but since we're discussing what would go on the OCP sleeves, I suppose you could call it a wish list. This would be in line with how the USAF is doing their patches with some minor tweeks for CAP.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Hawk200

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 15, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

I could work with that. Looking at that table, most of the things with "L/RP = On Left or Right Pocket" or "RS = Right Sleeve" for the BDU might be good candidates for the right sleeve pocket of OCP.

Although, I don't have any of the quals mentioned, I would be delighted to see people that earned them be able to wear them. (Of course, it's Velcro. You can always just pull it off if someone whines.)

Quote from: Eclipse on August 15, 2018, 06:36:13 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 02:51:55 PM
Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

Year three of something that should have taken a few hours.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Concept_of_Operations_for_Reenginee_F232A9B140406.pdf
(Thankfully this document is "unclassified")

Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

SarDragon

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 11:13:35 PMAs noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret