Which offers better training, NESA or HMRS?

[Capt Thompson]

A question came up in another thread I posted in membership, and I couldn't find a thread in search that matched what I was looking for. If anyone knows of a specific thread, please post here to avoid rehashing an old topic please.

To be clear, I'm looking for responses from anyone who has gone through training at NESA and HMRS. From a training aspect only, which offers better search and rescue training? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each, as compared to the other?

This isn't a discussion about ascots, tabs, white pistol belts, etc. I'm looking for first hand knowledge about the training offered, not "we had a cadet who was a graduate, and he was a ....." I'm not looking to pick up bling, or think I'm better than anyone else, so please leave those posts out of the discussion. I don't care about the attitudes of former attendees that you know. Also please state if you went through the Cadet or Senior programs at either school, as I know the training may differ slightly between the two.

Before you hit submit....please think about the Core Value of Respect, and go....

[lordmonar]

Neither offers better training.

[Holding Pattern]

While I have registered relatively recently, I have read a not-insignificant amount of the back issue threads to familiarize myself with everything from uniform regulations regarding bluetooth headsets, uniform weight regulations, more uniform regulations, did I mention more uniform regulations, HWSNBN, HMRS vs NESA, state SAR laws vs CAP regs, firearms and ground teams, and a myriad of other topics.

You picked one of the hot-button topics to start a thread on.

The forum experience: HMRS grads have more attitude that needs adjusting. This places a bias against them.

My anecdotal experience: Cadets who consistently promote and are interested in ES seem interested in HMRS. Grads here tend to not get all elitist, though many posters here have had that experience with them.

I also suspect there is a strong negative bias on those data points (people who note issues are more likely to talk about it then people who have not noted issues), and unfortunately, CAP is no stranger to having one or two bad influences ruin things for the majority of people. (There are a number of old threads covering that topic alone!)

If you had a good experience there, treat that experience with respect and honor. If you run into people not doing so, correct them. If you run into people who have had a bad experience with elitist cadets currently in the CAP ES program, take the extra effort to work with those cadets to put them back on the right track.

[arajca]

Peanuts! Popcorn! Getch yer Nomex undies here!

[Garibaldi]

Not even apples and oranges. More like citrus related fruits and trying to pick from among the different varieties of apples. having had 2 cadets in my old unit go through NESA and HMRS, I can say that HMRS has more hoo-ah than NESA, based on each cadet's attitude upon returning. I relied on both to train my other cadets, and while my NESA grad was just as motivated as my HMRS grad (both females about the same age, not that it really matters), their overall attitude towards SAREXes and FTXes was different. My NESA grad was more laid back, wanting to do more routine training while HMRS wanted advanced leave the van Friday night and not see it again until late Sunday evening type of hoo-ah. Nothing wrong with either.

[Eclipse]

HMRS is a high adventure activity, with stated goals of training and activities not generally approved for use in CAP ES operations.
It does not have an aircrew component and it espouses training not relevent in a CAP context, while at the same time instilling the attitude of "best of the best" in the participants, despite the lack of actual experience by many of those who complete the program.  It has value in and of itself as an HAA, but it is arguable in a CAP context as to the time spent on non-relevent training for those who are serious about being active in actual CAP ES missions.

NESA is a school intended to model and train CAP-specific emergency services qualifications and curriculum,
including in the last 5 years or so, test-piloting new programs.  It includes the full-depth of CAP-relevent
disciplines, and its participants gain direct and specifically-relevent experience in CAP ES operations.  The activity itself
is run by some of the most experienced and highly-placed personnel within CAP, and the amount of time spent
on CAP-irrelevent training is minimal.

[jeders]

They both offer good training. However, NESA is an ES school whereas Hawk is a leadership school. NESA teaches search and rescue for the purpose of teaching search and rescue. Hawk teaches field craft for the purpose of expanding on leadership training (and earning tabs). NESA prepares its students to go out and perform missions for America. Hawk prepares its students for...honestly, I'm not sure.

[Spaceman3750]

I would argue that NESA does a lot to teach both leadership and ES, just within the ES curriculum. At least, that's what I keep telling myself every year.

[sarmed1]

I have not been to NESA.  I have been to HMRS (many times) and serve as an instructor.  I agree that HMRS is primarily a leadership school (especially at the basic student level; ES training is they method used to teach that)  From my many years of ES experience (in and out of CAP) the concepts of teamwork,leadership, followership, attention to detail and problem solving to name a few are some key parts to succes of emergency services that are very often not "taught" in most anyones courses (SAR/Fire/EMS), they are just somehow "learned" (hopefully) along the way.  The elements that learn and practice these concepts usually are better functioning and usually more "succesful" units. (so my experience has shown)
That being said; in the past 2-3 years the HMRS curriculum has been constantly "tweaked" in that the skills taught are now in line completely with the CAP ES curriculm.  ie if you are a basic (1st year) student you will be instructed in and have the opportunity to complete all the GTM3 tasks.  (this was not always the case; up until last year, you pretty much needed to show up with first aid & comm training, otherwise you wernt getting a GTM3 rating out of it) HMRS specific Ranger grades skill are also taught. (these usually deal with field craft at the lower levels, and increased navigation/mobility and the beginings of rope rescue skills as you progress)

Though not a NCSA, I am kind of a fan of TXWG LESA program.  (I admit I helped develop the GTM training program when I was there)  It is inclusive of multiple specialties just like NESA; commo, aircrew, GTM etc.  If you are looking for GTM specific training, their GSARSS program is a mix of the HMRS and NESA type training styles-barracks, classroom specific GTM training, combined with the whole teamwork/leadership/followership type stuff.  The basic course gets you GTM3 and NASAR SARTECH III, the advanced course GTL and SARTECH II.

MK

[BFreemanMA]

I've only gone to NESA's MAS and very much enjoyed my experience there. Hawk Mountain seems like a fun challenge, but I've been feeling the air side of things more lately. I've not personally encountered this so-called Ranger Ego.

As others have said, I guess it boils down to what your personal objective is in attending either activity.

[Angus]

It all depends on what you're doing.  If you are interested in participating in Emergency Services than NESA has the better training.  It is actually run by people who have literally "written the book" on what we do and how we do it.  As someone who has been to all 3 schools I highly recommend attending and soaking up as much as possible.

[Storm Chaser]

I recommend NESA. As some have mentioned, the national curriculum (SQTR, Task Guides, etc.) is developed by and tested at NESA. While other activities and schools offer great ES training, NESA remains the premier national ES school in CAP.

[Johnny Yuma]

Disclaimer: 2005 grad of NESA Advanced ICSS school.

That said: Everything I need to know about Hawk Mountain I learned here: http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2005/12/katrina_the_aar.html

After that performance I have no clue why NHQ still provides them any support and/or Vanguard kickback money at all.

[sarmed1]

 
Only because I can't find that smiley of beating a dead horse.

It was 10 years ago............

MK

[JeffDG]

Disclaimer: 2005 grad of NESA Advanced ICSS school.

That said: Everything I need to know about Hawk Mountain I learned here: http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2005/12/katrina_the_aar.html

After that performance I have no clue why NHQ still provides them any support and/or Vanguard kickback money at all.

That report should be required reading for every single IC in CAP.