New CAPR 39-2 Civil Air Patrol Membership

[RADIOMAN015]

And again, how many 12 year olds have a gov't issue photo ID? I personally have never met one. Seniors on the other hand, who also have to have their ID verified now, usually have multiple photo IDs.

Yes, they should have a SS card or copy of their birth cert. However, these are probably going to have to be dug out of a deep dark drawer somewhere. If not, replacements will have to be ordered which just increases the costs and barriers for cadets to participate.

Well that is the whole point.  We don't want people who can't prove their identity to join.

As for having to have replacements made....they will have to have them anyways eventually.  Heck my son's soccer team requires birth certificates.  Most school require them as well as does the DMV.

When you think that a CAP ID can grant access to most USAF bases....I think is is incumbant on CAP to make sure that we are not giving some Jihadist an easy way to get around base security.

I agree especially for senior members that we need to know the person applying really is that person, because we don't control the fingerprint card, so unless we can see a picture ID for a reputable source, we really wouldn't know the true identify based upon a social security card (which can easily be stolen).
Actually even for the finger print card, even IF it was someone else, unless they had a finger print on file, the FBI really has no way of knowing who's finger print is really on that card.
RM

[SarDragon]

Simple enough. Do you talk with the parents at all before allowing a cadet to join?

Sure I do, and I'll even make a copy of that list for the application packet I send home with them. I just don't think that it's too much to ask that an application (ESPECIALLY a newly revised one) include all of the information needed to complete it properly.

It appears that there simply isn't enough room on the new form for the lists of acceptable documents.

[MSG Mac]

The SS card actually says "Not to be used for Identification" This seems to stem from fears in the 30's of creeping socialism and the creation of a national identity card.

[lordmonar]

Well in my life time...that has never been adheared to.

It is only since the internet has made identity theft so easy has anyone made an effort to move away from that.

[Eclipse]

Yes, they should have a SS card or copy of their birth cert. However, these are probably going to have to be dug out of a deep dark drawer somewhere. If not, replacements will have to be ordered which just increases the costs and barriers for cadets to participate.

These days hospitals strongly recommend, and provide the means for, buying lots of original copies of a newborn's birth certificate, because they will
need them throughout their life, and everybody wants an original.  I know we ordered 20 or 30 for my kids, respectively, and have probably already gone through 5 or 6 (at least).  They are also not in a dark file underneath the socks, and any kid with health insurance, enrolled in school, and / or getting
any sort of government services will have had to provide proof or birth, status, etc., any number of times.

I realize that kids from homes with dramatic circumstance may not have this readily available, but the average member, cadet or senior, should.

For any kid without at least one copy on hand, we're doing him a service making him go and get one.

[SarDragon]

The SS card actually says "Not to be used for Identification" This seems to stem from fears in the 30's of creeping socialism and the creation of a national identity card.

Maybe yours does, but the ones issued in the last 30 years or so don't. My original card (1966) said that, but my current one (1978?) doesn't.

[spacecommand]

I see a typo on page 25 attachment 2.

Item 1 says US PASSPORT of US PASSPORT CARD

Shouldn't it say "or" instead "of"  same for the item 2 .

[Eclipse]

The SS card actually says "Not to be used for Identification" This seems to stem from fears in the 30's of creeping socialism and the creation of a national identity card.

Does it say "If found, return to Franklin Delano Roosevelt."?

[JeffDG]

I see a typo on page 25 attachment 2.

Item 1 says US PASSPORT of US PASSPORT CARD

Shouldn't it say "or" instead "of"  same for the item 2 .

You can blame USCIS for that.  That's the base I-9 list of documents.

My 7 year old daughter actually has two forms of photo ID, and will soon have a third once I push some paper.

And if they're sticking to this list, then a birth certificate, SS card, or even both, won't cut it.  You need one from List A, or 1 from B+1 from C.  Essentially these are for work eligibility, and intended to show proof of identity (photo ID) + proof of legal status (like US birth certificate proves citizenship).

[SarDragon]

Here's Column B:

1. Driver's license or ID card issued by a State or outlying possession of the United States provided it contains a photograph or information such as name, date of birth, gender, height, eye color, and address
2. ID card issued by federal, state or local government agencies or entities, provided it contains a photograph or information such as name, date of birth, gender, height, eye color, and address
3. School ID Card with a photograph
4. Voter's registration card
5. U.S. Military card or draft record
6. Military dependent's ID card
7. U.S. Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Card
8. Native American tribal document
9. Driver's license issued by a Canadian government authority
10. School record or report card
11. Clinic, doctor, or hospital record
12. Day-care or nursery school record

The bold items are the most likely ones available for cadets. This ain't brain science. Y'all seem to be making this way more complicated than it really is.

Couple any of these with a SS card or birth certificate, and the requirement is satisfied.

[spacecommand]

So a new member has to show one from column A, which not everyone has.

Or one from column B AND column C,  even the TSA is not that strict.

[jimmydeanno]

But every employer is.

[Eclipse]

So a new member has to show one from column A, which not everyone has.

Or one from column B AND column C,  even the TSA is not that strict.

TSA requires two forms of ID for access to the gates - a boarding pass and a photo ID.

[Dad2-4]

I have to say that I agree with stricter ID proof for new members. I also haven't read anything here of anyone having experience with a non-eligible person trying to join. I had a bunch of kids wanting to join a new flight we were starting up at school. I had one very motivated kid whom I knew was illegal (he told me) and had to tell him he couldn't join due to lack of legal status. Granted, he didn't try to falsify anything, but there were 2 other cadets who joined where I had suspicion of illegality but had no proof. So I support the new reg. I don't see that it will cause any changes in the number of new recruits, senior or cadet.

[spacecommand]

There's a Senior Member over at the Spangdahlem overseas unit (in Germany) who's not a US citizen (or foreigner living in the United States, since he doesn't live in the US, he lives in Luxembourg and is a Luxembourg national, if he joined today he would not be able to produce some of the required documents).  Apparently he had to get a special waiver to join.  Of course this is a very rare case in CAP dealing with an overseas squadron.

http://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123058584

[SarDragon]

IIRC, he's posted on here or CS.

Yes, he did need a waiver, but I think it was relatively easy to get. He provided the requested documents, and had testimonials about his character.

What the new reg is asking isn't hard to do. Really.

BTW, I've successfully processed membership apps for foreign nationals with green cards. They went right through.

In fact, a green card isn't even necessary. Items 3 and 5 in List A cover that.

[Fubar]

TSA requires two forms of ID for access to the gates - a boarding pass and a photo ID.

Except for those under 18 years old - they do not have to have any identification at all. Your point for adults however is of course quite valid.

[JeffDG]

But every employer is.

Bingo...that's exactly where the list comes from.  Every employer is supposed to fill out an I-9 for every new employee, with exactly these ID requirements.

[JeffDG]

IIRC, he's posted on here or CS.

Yes, he did need a waiver, but I think it was relatively easy to get. He provided the requested documents, and had testimonials about his character.

What the new reg is asking isn't hard to do. Really.

BTW, I've successfully processed membership apps for foreign nationals with green cards. They went right through.

In fact, a green card isn't even necessary. Items 3 and 5 in List A cover that.

Green card is actually item #2 in list A.  A green card is formally known as an I-551.

#3 is only temporary, and incredibly rare right now.  Generally speaking, a person goes from approval to having a physical green card in a matter of 1-2 weeks.  Only if they need to travel during that small window do they ever get the I-551 stamp in their passport.

#5 is not for permanent residents.  #5 is for those who are in the US on a temporary status (Like TN-1, L-1 or H-1b).  In that case, their employment is actually limited to the sponsoring employer.  Individuals in this status require a waiver from National in order to join CAP.  It's not difficult to get (I needed one when I joined for example, but have since adjusted status to being a Lawful Permanent Resident with an I-551)

[SarDragon]

IIRC, he's posted on here or CS.

Yes, he did need a waiver, but I think it was relatively easy to get. He provided the requested documents, and had testimonials about his character.

What the new reg is asking isn't hard to do. Really.

BTW, I've successfully processed membership apps for foreign nationals with green cards. They went right through.

In fact, a green card isn't even necessary. Items 3 and 5 in List A cover that.

Green card is actually item #2 in list A.  A green card is formally known as an I-551.

#3 is only temporary, and incredibly rare right now.  Generally speaking, a person goes from approval to having a physical green card in a matter of 1-2 weeks.  Only if they need to travel during that small window do they ever get the I-551 stamp in their passport.

#5 is not for permanent residents.  #5 is for those who are in the US on a temporary status (Like TN-1, L-1 or H-1b).  In that case, their employment is actually limited to the sponsoring employer.  Individuals in this status require a waiver from National in order to join CAP.  It's not difficult to get (I needed one when I joined for example, but have since adjusted status to being a Lawful Permanent Resident with an I-551)

Was what I said wrong? If so, how? If not, what's your point? I read and fully understood the contents of List A before I posted.

BTW, there was a time, not so long ago, when there was a several month backlog for issuing green cards. Back in the late '70s, when they transitioned to the current card, the backlog was 14+ months.