A new CAPR 39-2 Civil Air Patrol Membership has been posted.

As well as new application for cadet and senior membership. Interestingly, we are now supposed to verify a cadet's identity using one of a number of items before they can become members.

Change one each in that title: letter, number.

Then I'll be happy.

Having skimmed through it, I see several clarifications that are rather nice and welcome. I refuse to start the argument so I won't name specifics, but this looks fairly clear and simple.

YMMV, haven't the motivation to tear it apart as I found the sections pertaining to me.

jeders, that is interesting.

Quote from: jeders on August 04, 2011, 09:12:33 PM
As well as new application for cadet and senior membership. Interestingly, we are now supposed to verify a cadet's identity using one of a number of items before they can become members.

What 12 year old will have the proper IDs?

Quote from: jeders on August 04, 2011, 09:12:33 PM
As well as new application for cadet and senior membership. Interestingly, we are now supposed to verify a cadet's identity using one of a number of items before they can become members.

Probably a good idea. Even though I provided a copy of my green card when I joined, I was still allowed to call myself Michael and adjust my last name to the "proper" spelling. This was April 2003. I legally changed my name to the CAP name May 2010.

Quote from: davidsinn on August 04, 2011, 09:24:17 PM

Quote from: jeders on August 04, 2011, 09:12:33 PM
As well as new application for cadet and senior membership. Interestingly, we are now supposed to verify a cadet's identity using one of a number of items before they can become members.

What 12 year old will have the proper IDs?

Passport, SS, Birth certificate, etc.

You really need ONE gov photo ID, and then anything else will work.

About the new applications...

1) Wouldn't it have made more sense to put the commander's certification of citizenship in the commander's signature area? I can see many applications coming back from applicants with this part filled out, followed by a blank look when the commander asks where their identification is. Seems to me that the commander's certification would be better placed after ALL of the applicant info, including the demographic info and medical info on the second page.

2) I really wish they'd take out the part telling the applicant to rush the application to NHQ.  IMHO, it should be the squadron's job to do this, as we're the ones that have to verify citizenship, make sure that the application is complete, and make copies for the files and wing HQ.

3) This is more of a peeve, but it really isn't hard to make sure that cell borders in a Word table align with one another.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on August 04, 2011, 09:26:39 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on August 04, 2011, 09:24:17 PM

Quote from: jeders on August 04, 2011, 09:12:33 PM
As well as new application for cadet and senior membership. Interestingly, we are now supposed to verify a cadet's identity using one of a number of items before they can become members.

What 12 year old will have the proper IDs?

Passport, SS, Birth certificate, etc.

You really need ONE gov photo ID, and then anything else will work.

And again, how many 12 year olds have a gov't issue photo ID? I personally have never met one. Seniors on the other hand, who also have to have their ID verified now, usually have multiple photo IDs.

Yes, they should have a SS card or copy of their birth cert. However, these are probably going to have to be dug out of a deep dark drawer somewhere. If not, replacements will have to be ordered which just increases the costs and barriers for cadets to participate.

With the new government rules imposed since 9/11, everybody should have a birth certificate, even children need one when they enroll in school. Social Security Cards are also required for children now if they even have 1 penny in a bank account or have savings bond given as birth or baptism gifts.

Quote from: MSG Mac on August 04, 2011, 09:45:05 PM
With the new government rules imposed since 9/11, everybody should have a birth certificate, even children need one when they enroll in school. Social Security Cards are also required for children now if they even have 1 penny in a bank account or have savings bond given as birth or baptism gifts.

Papers Please?

Quote from: davidsinn on August 04, 2011, 09:24:17 PM

Quote from: jeders on August 04, 2011, 09:12:33 PM
As well as new application for cadet and senior membership. Interestingly, we are now supposed to verify a cadet's identity using one of a number of items before they can become members.

What 12 year old will have the proper IDs?

Well, after looking at the list, I think it will be pretty easy. A report card and a SS card fill the requirements. 

Quote from: MSG Mac on August 04, 2011, 09:45:05 PM
With the new government rules imposed since 9/11, everybody should have a birth certificate, even children need one when they enroll in school. Social Security Cards are also required for children now if they even have 1 penny in a bank account or have savings bond given as birth or baptism gifts.

Yes, they have them. But that doesn't mean that they are readily available. As I said, they are likely buried away in a drawer/file/safe somewhere because it's not something that they should need on any sort of regular basis. Personally, I think needing your SS Card for anything other than employment application and collecting Social Security is total bunk, but I'll leave that for another time.

<SLAPS HEAD>

I just realized that the cadet application implies that a birth certificate, social security card, or state ID ALONE are sufficient documentation of citizenship.  Unfortunately, Attachment 2 of the new reg requires that they be paired with some other documentation to adequately verify the applicant's citizenship.  I see two things happening because of this...

1) We'll get lots of practice telling Applicant Snuffy that we can't process their application because we need some more documentation;

2) This will get pencil-whipped as long as one of the five documents listed on the application are presented.

They really seem very concerned about making sure that the individual apply for membership  is really who they say they are, even on cadets.  Of course this is the same form used for someone who is being employed, except that we actually have to get copies of the document and attach.   I don't think CAP has the proper security at the unit level to be keeping certified birth certificates, and/or copies of social security cards, driver license, or military ID cards.

Seems to me also allowing a losing commander 60 days to disapprove a transfer is excessive.  Most people that transfer do it for a reason and don't need to be held hostage.   I would think 2 weeks would be sufficient, with 30 days as the maximum time.

The "oath" seems to be a big deal with them throughout the regulation.

The assignment of duties by the Commander at face value seems to state the commander can assign you to any duty he/she feels you should do, BUT of course the reality of the situation is the member needs to have an interest and an aptitude to perform that (those) duty(ies).
RM   
 
 

Quote from: NC Hokie on August 04, 2011, 10:07:32 PM
<SLAPS HEAD>

2) This will get pencil-whipped as long as one of the five documents listed on the application are presented.

Common sense before service before self.

FYI, SSANs have been required for children since the early '90s, well before 9/11. The requirement came about because of increased tax fraud when the Earned Income Tax Credit was introduced.

The ID requirement is one from list A, or one from list B and one from list C. This ain't rocket surgery. The commander needs to see, not copy and retain, the ID items. If mommy and daddy can't produce the required items, the new cadet likely has bigger issues in the background.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 04, 2011, 10:18:31 PM
FYI, SSANs have been required for children since the early '90s, well before 9/11. The requirement came about because of increased tax fraud when the Earned Income Tax Credit was introduced.

The ID requirement is one from list A, or one from list B and one from list C. This ain't rocket surgery. The commander needs to see, not copy and retain, the ID items. If mommy and daddy can't produce the required items, the new cadet likely has bigger issues in the background.

Right, but that's NOT what the application says, which will cause unnecessary confusion with mommy and daddy UNLESS we (at the unit level) send a copy of Attachment 2 of the new reg home with the application.

Simple enough. Do you talk with the parents at all before allowing a cadet to join?

Quote from: SarDragon on August 04, 2011, 11:34:51 PM
Simple enough. Do you talk with the parents at all before allowing a cadet to join?

Sure I do, and I'll even make a copy of that list for the application packet I send home with them. I just don't think that it's too much to ask that an application (ESPECIALLY a newly revised one) include all of the information needed to complete it properly.

Quote from: jeders on August 04, 2011, 09:31:38 PMAnd again, how many 12 year olds have a gov't issue photo ID? I personally have never met one. Seniors on the other hand, who also have to have their ID verified now, usually have multiple photo IDs.

Yes, they should have a SS card or copy of their birth cert. However, these are probably going to have to be dug out of a deep dark drawer somewhere. If not, replacements will have to be ordered which just increases the costs and barriers for cadets to participate.

Well that is the whole point.  We don't want people who can't prove their identity to join.

As for having to have replacements made....they will have to have them anyways eventually.  Heck my son's soccer team requires birth certificates.  Most school require them as well as does the DMV.

When you think that a CAP ID can grant access to most USAF bases....I think is is incumbant on CAP to make sure that we are not giving some Jihadist an easy way to get around base security.