Separate Nightime (Darkness) ES Qualification Requirements?

[RADIOMAN015]

Wondering what others more experienced think about implementing a requirement for night time search & rescue training exercises (ground & air) and also add this as a separate qualification to the SQRT?

As we all know operating during the hours of darkness requires a different orientation (and training).  Perhaps this skills set needs to be further developed.    The last 4 missions we've supported locally have been during the hours of darkness.
RM
 

[Eclipse]

As we all know operating during the hours of darkness requires a different orientation (and training). 

Not necessary.  Most ORM situations would preclude night search operations in any area that real night-ops skills are needed.
Even some professional teams call off ops during the night.

[RiverAux]

The only night ground SAR I'm aware of in my area has involved walking trails looking for lost hikers.  They aren't going to start running lines through the woods in the dark.

It might not be a bad idea to have a night hike as a separate task in the GT SQTR as it is certainly possible that even though search ops may be over at dark, you might still end up having to hike back to the van in the dark. 

[wuzafuzz]

A little bit of navigation at night along with a trail hike would be a good thing IMHO. 

It's not a stretch for our folks to be on a trail at night, even if only for RTB.  Throw in a purposely altered, vandalized, or missing trail marker (I've seen plenty) and it could be easy to take a wrong turn.

[ZigZag911]

In NJW we have done night SAR flying and UDF ground work for years...primarily ELT/electronic work.

Never heard of a real GT heading out into the woods in the dark!

[Al Sayre]

As an IC I wouldn't send a GT out in the woods in the dark, the ORM would be off the chart.  Night flying SAR is generally limited to electronic searches along the known route of flight or area given by AFRCC.  UDF ramp checks at 0200 are pretty routine though.

[PHall]

In CAWG at least, about 50% of the UDF sorties are after dark. Probably because of that corollary to Murphy's Law, "no ELT goes off before 9PM."

[SarDragon]

Or if they do, it's after 9 by the time the rubber hits the road.

[Pingree1492]

As an IC I wouldn't send a GT out in the woods in the dark, the ORM would be off the chart. 

Which is a very good reason to train more to bring that risk down.

I would be in favor of adding a night qualification to the GTM/GTL/UDF SQTR's.  Though NOT as something to be done to get qualified, but rather more like an 'add-on' rating that can be achieved after your basic GTM-3 or UDF qualification is obtained.

There are plenty of agencies that do Ground SAR in the dark all the time- most trackers like to work in the hours of darkness.  Also, I know of a couple of finds we've made from the air during the night off of ELT's. 

[Al Sayre]

Electronic searches in the air are one thing with a GT to work with them on an airport or near a road.  As I said before, I won't send a GT into the woods at night.  Train for it if you want, but when some cadet breaks his leg falling over a log in the dark, you are the one that gets to fill out all the safety paper work and call the parents...

[N Harmon]

Train for it if you want, but when some cadet breaks his leg falling over a log in the dark, you are the one that gets to fill out all the safety paper work and call the parents...

And if some cadet breaks his leg falling over a log in the day time, we don't have to fill out safety paper work and call the parents?

I think blanket restrictions on night operations is a bad idea. Granted it is your call as an IC, but one would hope you could at least make a decision on a case by case basis.

[TACP]

Electronic searches in the air are one thing with a GT to work with them on an airport or near a road.  As I said before, I won't send a GT into the woods at night.  Train for it if you want, but when some cadet breaks his leg falling over a log in the dark, you are the one that gets to fill out all the safety paper work and call the parents...

And this is why County Sheriff SAR Explorer units tend to have such a better reputation than us...

[heliodoc]

Sometimes paid and non paid affiliated LE folks are just as good or better, at times, than CAP

Facts are hard to argue with when its statute in some States.

With some of CAP's risk averse nature, this by now, I would imagine, would have plenty of GT and their leaders on pins and needles due to "CAP ORM"   But with everything......there's methods to the mitigation....

It ought to case by case by case basis...I know the Sqdn I am with operates at night and does night land nav

Its a SLOOOW  process.  No heavy speed expectations, no reason to lose track of your team mates, no reason to hurry.  No reason to send injured cadets home to the folks.

I know this will tick a few particular CAPTAlkers off......  wildland fire operates at night..we seem to do all right

Don't see how CAP would have a problem with this

Why not CAP?  You figure it out while WE are training at night!!!

[Short Field]

Why not CAP?  You figure it out while WE are training at night!!!

Are you saying the CAP unit you are in is operating at night or some other organization you are in?   If it is a CAP unit, then I guess CAP has figured it out. 

Personally, I'll leave the ground teams in the camp grounds at night.  Functions such as perimeter security or directing traffic are fine after dark but we don't need to be tromping over the clues that we might find in the daylight.  If you live in "gentle" country, night navigation training is fine.  However, trying to move at night over rough terrain is a bit prone to generating injuries.  Nothing is more fun than trying to separate a 14 year old from the clump of cholla she just walk through.       

[Short Field]

I personally don't think a Nightime ES qual is necessary or even desirable.  If you have a mission that needs to be performed at night and the benefits outweigh the risk, then go ahead and do it. 

[lordmonar]

Let's no be bad mouthing ORM, just because someone decides to be safe instead of sorry.

As for requiring "night" quals....I just don't think they are necessary.  Air crew already have night quals in the form of the pilot must be night current if his flight is going to take him past civil twilight....ground teams should be bedding down if they get caught out too late.

As for the UDF stuff....no problem we can do that at night if we want to.

Requiring Night Quals....simply means that WE MUST do night ops.....even if never use the ability. 

[raivo]

I remember when I was at NGSAR and a cadet staff member dropped their radio after dark in a fairly large field.

You haven't experienced futility until you've spent half an hour line-searching through chest-high grass with nothing for illumination but red-filtered flashlights. :/

[ZigZag911]

I just don't see any need for GTs in the woods at night.

Do wilderness SAR teams (far better prepared than our folks) operate in this way at night?

[TACP]

You haven't experienced futility until you've spent half an hour line-searching through chest-high grass with nothing for illumination but red-filtered flashlights. :/

That's the team at fault for not having proper equipment. SAR is not a tactical operation that requires red only lights, and should be working to be SEEN. Half the time a person lost in the woods will see you first.

And ZigZag911:
Yes, your average County SAR team is going to have no issues going into the woods at night. They are generally outfitted the same as our 72 hr packs, but spend time completing valuable night training. Keep in mind most of these organizations members start between ages 14-18, and they do EVERYTHING needed on a Search.

[raivo]

That's the team at fault for not having proper equipment. SAR is not a tactical operation that requires red only lights, and should be working to be SEEN. Half the time a person lost in the woods will see you first.

The rationale was that we were saving our night vision.

To this day, I am unsure why having night vision but not being able to see, was better than losing my night vision but being able to see.

[sardak]

Wow. It concerns me that members don't see the reasons to search at night. It's never occurred to me to not search at night. There were two recent threads related to this one, and there have been others.
Will CAP ever give GSAR serious attention?  Training to NASAR Standards?

Both threads included discussions of CAP ground teams not getting respect. Not searching at night is a good way to get dissed.

A fundamental tenet (often referred to as a "crucial") of search and rescue management is: Search is an emergency. This is discussed  in the National SAR School and both of the principal land SAR management classes: Managing the Lost Person Incident and Managing Land Search Operations. These two M- classes, each four days long, allocate part of their curriculum to why one should search at night.

The point is that time is critical in SAR. Since time doesn't stop when the sun goes down, searching at night is standard practice, except apparently, in CAP. Think the Coast Guard calls it quits at sundown? There are a lot of great videos that answer the question.

Search urgency forms are part of missing person search. As the name implies, the forms list many factors used to determine the urgency of a search. Night vs. day is not one of the factors because it's presumed that the search will occur regardless, if the urgency factor justifies it.

Night search is recognized as more hazardous than daytime search for the same reasons that most all human activities are more difficult at night.  The ASTM F2209 standard referenced in several CAP Talk threads includes the topic "Discuss the additional hazards of searching at night." Someone in a review cycle suggested that it be removed because some SAR manager might use that as an excuse for not searching at night.

A mitigation measure to night hazards is the use of bright white lights - for seeing and to be seen. Using red lenses, and in some cases using no light, in order to preserve night vision is absurd.  Searching at night is not night commando ops. On the other hand, you shine your light into the eyes of another searcher, you'll face retaliatory measures.

I've been on a number of missing aircraft searches in CAP where ground teams located the wreckage - and survivors - at night in the mountains. My county mountain rescue team averages about 100 calls a year. A good 50% of them start or end at night. The most recent was last night - paged out at 2248, subject located at 0134.  A few weeks ago we were paged out shortly before midnight for a 50 YO male who decided to commit suicide by swallowing 50 tablets of his low blood pressure medicine. He then walked dressed in pajamas, with temps in the teens, to a nearby state park which, among its many hazards, includes wetlands. We found him off trail and unconscious. He had a core temperature of 81 degrees when he reached the hospital. Had we not searched for him at night, his eventual transport would have taken him to the morgue.

In answer to the original question, should there be separate night quals? Apparently so, for those that do and those that don't want to search at night. As Pingree suggested, it shouldn't be a complete qual, but an optional "endorsement" consisting of a couple of additional tasks.

Mike

[lordmonar]

I remember when I was at NGSAR and a cadet staff member dropped their radio after dark in a fairly large field.

You haven't experienced futility until you've spent half an hour line-searching through chest-high grass with nothing for illumination but red-filtered flashlights. :/

Anyone think of maybe taking off the stupid red filters?

Saving your night vision is one thing...but if you are looking for a black radio in tall grass (sounds like you were in the compass course areas) requires more light then a red filter would provide.

[heliodoc]

sardak is on point

No need for CAP to put some reg out there on operating at night...no need to waste reams of paper and bandwidth just to satisfy some at the National level some what similar to the issues of CAP rappelling.  Granted the dangers are different.  I wanted to get that in before CAPTalkers got on that bandwagon...

30 yrs ago we were doing in the very Sqdn I am in now......

We were not doin some CAP  night time "special CAP kombat ops" either.

I would suggest that all CAPers try a little night time training.  Didn't think this was a problem for CAP.

But apparently it is

[N Harmon]

To this day, I am unsure why having night vision but not being able to see, was better than losing my night vision but being able to see.

I too attended NGSAR (NESA), and was a bit puzzled by the insistence of using red filtered lights at night for all things. A few people there had these:



They provide a brilliant amount of red light. I ordered one as soon as I got home and have tested it out, and it works pretty well.

According to the NASAR fundamentals book, too bright a flashlight will make it difficult to detect subtle clues. They recommend a lantern with a diffuse beam and deflectors to keep the light out of the searcher's eyes.

[RiverAux]

sardak, unless we've already got pretty good location information I can't see sending a ground team into the woods looking for an aircraft at night. 

But, if we're talking about participating in lost person searches, we're at the mercy of the locals and how they want to run things.  Although we don't do a lot of these in my state, it has been on the increase, but in every situation so far, the locals don't search at night, so we don't. 

I suspect that most of the night searching that does go on is restricted to walking trails or is done in such a small confined area that there is a high likiehood of finding the person (wild section of a city park, for example).  I would have absolutely no problem having CAP members do that.

[lordmonar]

As for sending out a ground team at night......a lot....a whole lot.....will depend on the specific situation.

I could see sending out teams to do DF bearings.

I could see sending out a team to a hot clue that was in light to moderate terrain, close to a road.

I could see sending out a team to get as close to the target area staying on roads or major trails to await sunrise.

I could see sending out teams to patrol roads and logging trails to try to enclose a suspected target area.

I would take into consideration a lot of things, weather, team composition, mission objectives, terrain, travel time, known or suspected status of victims, quality of communications in and around the area.

But line searches at night?  No.
Going deep woods at night?  No
Going into medium angle areas (foot hills) at night?  No.

But I will not say....categorically that I would not send out teams at night....because sometimes the operational risk is out weighted by the operational mission.  Of course another IC or GBD will run their missions their way....and that's okay.

[wuzafuzz]

Night time lighting?  Give me all the white light I can get, just short of causing a sunburn.     Better visibility, better depth perception, more lumens.  Have a second, dimmer, white light for closeup work.

The ONLY thing I use red lights for is midnight nature calls, where I don't want to blast my sleeping team mates with bright white light while finding my way out of the cabin/trailer/tent.  Otherwise, no need to play CAP ninja...I'm pretty sure that's not a rating yet.

Search at night?  Sure, if circumstances (including ORM) warrant.  If my GTL, GBD, and IC say go, I'll go.  Of course probability of detection is lower and may require revisiting the area in daylight if needed.

[CAPSeahawk8]

 Night operations are little different from daylight provided your searchers are trained and comfortable in those conditions. I have always trained my ground teams at night and in the worst weather we can find, if you can do it under those conditions daylight and good weather are a breeze. Most of our searches do not happen in ideal conditions, would you send green teams out in those conditions never. But you must train , train ,train in order to be proficient at night operations.

Maj Andy Wiggs
CC/MER-NC-022
DOS/NCWG

[EMT-83]

I think that ES training should be conducted after dark. Until you experience working in the woods with a dinky flashlight and so-so batteries (which is what a lot of people carry), you can't appreciate the problems to be encountered.

In my town, we have a park that attracts rock climbers from far and wide. A couple of times a year, we need to go rescue some idiot off a cliff or ledge because they get themselves into trouble. Often, we start out in daylight and don't complete the rescue until well after dark. To make sure we're prepared, we go out and rappel at night, in the rain, snow, etc. Carrying a Stokes basket through the woods at night, you learn to have spare batteries and plenty of glow sticks handy.

CAP training should be the same. There is a definite possibility that ground teams could find themselves operating in conditions other than optimal, even if that wasn't the original plan. Should it be a separate requirement? Maybe, if that's what it takes to make sure our people are well prepared.

[Spaceman3750]

Last time I was at NESA we did a night op and it really sucked. I would, of course, do it again and again if I needed to, but the fact was that we didn't have enough time to get our night vision,  some folks had chemlights of every color to destroy our night vision, and DFing in the dark in heavily wooded area is a big pain in the butt. It also represented a safety hazard because of the deep ruts from the tank trails running through the range we were using, we couldn't see them and if you step into one the wrong way your ankle's done for (of course, I was a smaller fellow back then, so maybe they seemed bigger then they really were ).

So, night ops are less than ideal conditions producing less than optimal results and less than optimal safety conditions. But you can do it if you need to. And you should at least be familiar with the differences between day/night operations, just in case you get called into the woods at o-dark-thirty or your sortie runs into the night, but I don't think extra quals are really neccesary.

[Eclipse]

You don't actually "need" nightvision for CAP operations, assuming no one is shining a 5M Candle spot light directly in your face, we're not hiding, so shine all the white light you want away from your eyes and burn the night with lumens!

[lordmonar]

You don't actually "need" nightvision for CAP operations, assuming no one is shining a 5M Candle spot light directly in your face, we're not hiding, so shine all the white light you want away from your eyes and burn the night with lumens!

But then what will we do with all these tactical flashlights! 

[nesagsar]

There is no reason that a well trained search team cant come up with a method of using the different illumination tools together. Our teams usually carry white lights, red lights, glow sticks, spotlights, flashing beacons, glow paint, etc... As far as night searches in general, most of my searches have been in the dark. Your search team should be able to find a 6 inch piece of metal in medium grass at night in the rain. Plan for that and use whatever tools you need. Also remember that sometimes we will help to find people who might not want to be found, discretion is always an issue.

[Jerry Jacobs]

There is no reason that a well trained search team cant come up with a method of using the different illumination tools together. Our teams usually carry white lights, red lights, glow sticks, spotlights, flashing beacons, glow paint, etc... As far as night searches in general, most of my searches have been in the dark. Your search team should be able to find a 6 inch piece of metal in medium grass at night in the rain. Plan for that and use whatever tools you need. Also remember that sometimes we will help to find people who might not want to be found, discretion is always an issue.

I'm pretty sure a search where the person does not want to be found would eliminate CAP from the search in the first place because of possible foul play.  Also it would be bad ORM to send a CAP Ground Team for someone who is avoiding authorities.

[arajca]

Not necessarily. Someone who walked away from family on an outing may not want to be found. It's not too uncommon with kids early in the search when they're afraid of being punished for getting lost.

Not wanting to be found does not automatically imply criminal activity or intent.

[nesagsar]

Not necessarily. Someone who walked away from family on an outing may not want to be found. It's not too uncommon with kids early in the search when they're afraid of being punished for getting lost.

Not wanting to be found does not automatically imply criminal activity or intent.

Exactly right. Children, despondents, Alzheimer's patients, developmentally disabled, etc...

Also, don't forget that sometimes you will be called to a search with very little information. The subject may be involved in criminal activity but your search managers might not know that, as far as they know we just have to find them.

[Spaceman3750]

You don't actually "need" nightvision for CAP operations, assuming no one is shining a 5M Candle spot light directly in your face, we're not hiding, so shine all the white light you want away from your eyes and burn the night with lumens!

The problem with this is that whatever type of light you're using, you're still limited in what you can see, for the most part. If your eyes have time and conditions to adjust, however, you are able to see more without the extra light, leading to better situational awareness; and situational awareness keeps the safety officer away, or at least that's what I tell myself. YMMV

[brasda91]

Per 60-3 for those of you that have forgotten:

1-17. Ground Operations. Ground teams may be used in virtually all phases of a mission. Ground operations are governed by state and local laws as well as by CAP regulations and policies.  Missions are frequently initiated during periods of adverse weather or other inopportune moments when air operations may be precluded or limited, for example, immediately following a storm or in the middle of the night.

[heliodoc]

Before 60-3 ever came along and when it was the 50 and 55 series..

Where do CAPTalkers get the idea that CAP did not do night work

Of course, we did this in the 70's and 80's....night TRAINING

Of course, who on CAPTalk would EVER read the above in 60-3?

AMAZING!!  Can always pull the ORM and Safety card all you want.......other agencies, where required will probably being doing it while CAP is sitting and sleeping tight....especially the CAPers who think we are exempt....

[lordmonar]

Strange.....I got the feeling that most of the posters thought we did/should do night operations?  Who are you guys yelling at?

[heliodoc]

Strange...... I thought there were some here worried about flashlights with red lenses, tripping hazards, ORM, Safety, CAP night kombat ops with chem sticks, night vision googles like we were some spec ops types out there looking for the potential survivors

Great!!

Then we do not need more regulations or bandwidth to incorporate "a new task" in the taskbook

[Spike]

Great!!

Then we do not need more regulations or bandwidth to incorporate "a new task" in the taskbook

Oh no.  You just typed "need more regulations"!!!!  You have cursed us all.  Now we can expect three new regs and 10 ICL's on Monday.  Thanks!   

[heliodoc]

You bet, Spike

That how this org stays alive 

But I thought I wrote do not need more regulations ......I did , I did

Nonetheless, I will be expecting more ICL's and late regulations to guide me along CAP's Golden Path.......