CERT Liaison

[wuzafuzz]

Any reluctance to use CAP will not be found in worries about our qualifications to do the job.  It doesn't take long to show someone what our folks have to do. 

I think it goes to marketing as I mentioned earlier.  We can brag about capabilities all day long, but until we use terms other folks understand they will simply go with what they already know.

Perhaps the better question, as someone mentioned earlier, is whether we should build a recognizable DR training program within CAP.  Absent that, perhaps we shouldn't be playing in that arena.  I'm surprised ORM allows us to do DR work when we don't specifically train our members for it.  There are unique hazards to consider after or during most disasters.

So, it doesn't have to be CERT but there should be something.  CERT just has the advantage of already being out there and recognized on our 101 cards.  "CAP CERT" could be what ever we want it to be, within reason.

[Smithsonia]

Marketing is just part of the issue. Marketing being a promise.

By actually training with everyone, we should get the credit we deserve. By picking a certain expertise, like Air Search and Ground Team Coordination (or perhaps aerial reconn and Photography) and owning that portfolio as the national certifying organization we get credibility. BUT, there are so many goofy CAP rules to set up cross training courses and exercises. The cross training is the "promise" performed. Cross training is the promise executed.

I realize that most of these rules have to do with CAP insurance and Cadet Protection... about those rules I am not complaining. However, when there are adults/seniors working as trainers or students -- in a recognized and valuable training educational opportunity -- or as teacher in the same thing -- there should be straightforward way to push it up the command chain, get a sign off, and move it along. In this issue CERT is not the specific problem. It is just one of the places in which I have encountered the problem. The problem seems to be (ours) CAP's.

[RiverAux]

Just what rules inhibit us from training with other organizations?  I've personally instigated more than a few cross agency exercises. 

[heliodoc]

Those "unwritten rules" that some folks in CAP think is the Bible and their world.

After a 30 year hiatus from CAP I am finding out about ALL those LAME unwritten rules that have no place in interagency operations

Only those folks that some aversion to risk or protecting their turf...


CAP is utterly amazing at times, even 30 years later.  I too have involved cross agency operations with the ARNG with absolutely no help from the Wing I am in......they generally do not seem interested, but give it a couple of years, I probably will hear it was "their idea."

[RADIOMAN015]

Those "unwritten rules" that some folks in CAP think is the Bible and their world.

Only those folks that some aversion to risk or protecting their turf...

CAP is utterly amazing at times, even 30 years later.  I too have involved cross agency operations with the ARNG with absolutely no help from the Wing I am in......they generally do not seem interested, but give it a couple of years, I probably will hear it was "their idea."

Be careful about anything to do with CERT, because in some communities CERT members were asked to sign a waiver of liability, which meant IF they got hurt while performing their assigned duties, the volunteer would end up paying their own medical and not the community.  Bad policy & is the reason I didn't join our local community team.  All those politicians and even the guy (community fire chief) who is running the program get benefits if they get hurt.     

So I tend to agree with CAP regulations on MOA's, before you jump in with ANY assistance to CERT, find out who is going to pay if someone gets hurt/diabled or something else goes wrong.

RM

[wuzafuzz]

Be careful about anything to do with CERT, because in some communities CERT members were asked to sign a waiver of liability, which meant IF they got hurt while performing their assigned duties, the volunteer would end up paying their own medical and not the community.  Bad policy & is the reason I didn't join our local community team.  All those politicians and even the guy (community fire chief) who is running the program get benefits if they get hurt.     

So I tend to agree with CAP regulations on MOA's, before you jump in with ANY assistance to CERT, find out who is going to pay if someone gets hurt/diabled or something else goes wrong.

RM

Wow...

I understand that waiver if CERT groups are acting autonomously, but if they are tasked by a government entity it's a shame to let them twist in the wind if injured or sued.

As long as we are acting as CAP members I would hope we would be covered by CAP.

[KyCAP]

CAP ought to be or TRY, in itself, to be NATIONALLY QUALIFIED rather than just CAP.

CAP offering courses to others?  Wouldn't that involve all those CAP legal types going awry just to cover ORM and "safety issues?"

I would hope that the HR 1178 study REALLY goes in to depth and shows how CAP is not as force multiplier as we think we are since we are not really practicing NIMS and ICS as we ought to be.  VFD's and LE has HAD to change according NIMS and ICS standards, so where is CAP as a force multiplier, huh?

I would say that SO and other Aviation agencies have their own SAR training.  BUT where has CAP been all these years as a force multiplier for them?

In our wing we are well down the path of interagency NIMS compliance.   During the Feb Ice Storm, I received requests from the Director of Emergency Management of Kentucky and we passed the request to the NOC for "experienced" Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that could deploy for 3 days.   The NOC received ZERO responses to their query in the border wings according to the NOC back in Februrary.   I think that it speaks pretty highly when the state agency asks us to replace their county emergency managers with our support as staff replenishment.   Sounds like it is differnent across the wings.

[heliodoc]

Is it quite possible some of these communities have not sent people to the necessary training due to budgets.

I do know of a few States that combine or draw off of wildland fire and others who do or already served in these positions.

Its good to see some of CAP in the fray.  But the training is Wing dependent and yes, its speaks highly, but , yet not consistent and that is what I meant by the HR 1178 study...

The consistency and quality in CAP is NOT consistent and aimed  at the true DHS HLS missions as of yet

Yes  I am sure it is different across Wings

[Eclipse]

In our wing we are well down the path of interagency NIMS compliance.   During the Feb Ice Storm, I received requests from the Director of Emergency Management of Kentucky and we passed the request to the NOC for "experienced" Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that could deploy for 3 days.   The NOC received ZERO responses to their query in the border wings according to the NOC back in Februrary.   I think that it speaks pretty highly when the state agency asks us to replace their county emergency managers with our support as staff replenishment.   Sounds like it is differnent across the wings.

Are you saying you received no support from your neighboring wings?

[RedFox24]

CAP ought to be or TRY, in itself, to be NATIONALLY QUALIFIED rather than just CAP.

CAP offering courses to others?  Wouldn't that involve all those CAP legal types going awry just to cover ORM and "safety issues?"

I would hope that the HR 1178 study REALLY goes in to depth and shows how CAP is not as force multiplier as we think we are since we are not really practicing NIMS and ICS as we ought to be.  VFD's and LE has HAD to change according NIMS and ICS standards, so where is CAP as a force multiplier, huh?

I would say that SO and other Aviation agencies have their own SAR training.  BUT where has CAP been all these years as a force multiplier for them?

In our wing we are well down the path of interagency NIMS compliance.   During the Feb Ice Storm, I received requests from the Director of Emergency Management of Kentucky and we passed the request to the NOC for "experienced" Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that could deploy for 3 days.   The NOC received ZERO responses to their query in the border wings according to the NOC back in Februrary.   I think that it speaks pretty highly when the state agency asks us to replace their county emergency managers with our support as staff replenishment.   Sounds like it is differnent across the wings.

As someone who monitored HAM, EMA, State, Local and Federal Agencies as well as CAP comms channels during the Feb Ice Storm you reference, I didn't hear many KYCAP call signs coming out of the western part of KY.  I did hear a lot of RedFox and RedFire call signs.................And a whole bunch of EMA/RACES/ARES calls as well. 

So while it pains me to agree with Eclipse , I will ask with him, are you saying you didn't receive any help from neighboring wings?

[KyCAP]

No that is NOT what I am saying.

As the IC of the Ice Quake for the first 48 hours shifting to the Agency Liasion in the State EOC passing the taskings that were handled and one of the authors of the AAR for that I can assure you that I completely aware of the air ops support from OTHER wings. 

To be clear - There was a tasking request SPECIFICALLY for experienced Operations Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that was passed to the NOC requesting support from surrounding wings for a 3 day deployment.  There were NO TAKERS as sourced by the NOC.

[KyCAP]

I didn't hear many KYCAP call signs coming out of the western part of KY. 

And you wouldn't have because our mission for the guard we do not use the highbird nor KYCAP call signs for our role in that mission in Kentucky.  We also typically do not use CAP frequencies for that mission unless coordinating with ground assets.  So, your noticeable silence isn't unusual.

[RADIOMAN015]

No that is NOT what I am saying.


To be clear - There was a tasking request SPECIFICALLY for experienced Operations Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that was passed to the NOC requesting support from surrounding wings for a 3 day deployment.  There were NO TAKERS as sourced by the NOC.

Lets face it that is REALITY of anything that may resemble being on the ground in a disaster area far away from ones homes.   I think the NHQ staff & volunteer leaders at that level really have a "fantasy" about how many members are actually going to be available and are going to show up after any disaster.   Some wings even have problems finding IC for "simple" mission right in the state

Even at the local/state level, the paid professional emergency planning staffs are very cautious about depending upon volunteers right from the area (and even close by) including CERT, Medical Reserve Corps, amateur radio (RACES/ARES) volunteers.  IF as a matter of government policy you won't pay someone (or at least feed & house them), won't cover them medically, or pay disability if they get hurt, don't expect too much    
RM

[heliodoc]

Correct Radioman

I think UNTIL that HR1178 study gets done to support HLS DHS missions....it is just a fantasy..

As of tonite...no motion on it.

Until then CAP had just do what it does best and HOPE for the best on the HLS stuff

Aerial imaging/ SDIS... fine  Some IA PA work, fine also

But working the hot zone with LE, FIRE, SWAT and selling the Congress like we could get into that arena is a pure stretch. 

If CAP wants to play ....they ought to start thinking on getting ahead of those AAR's that they have on the other thread.  THOSE ARE REQUIREMENTS AFTER EACH MAJOR EXERCISE and to say CAP doesn't have to do it is more CAP bunk.  CAP would do well just get ahead of that game without biaaaatching about it and get it done and have an ongoing file to correct their already number of mistakes and by cracky, everyone makes 'em.  CAP does not hold the corner on perfection yet.

SO CAP you want more missions.... start doing what is necessary as far as paperwork and exercises go...then this stuff will not be a surprise when the REAL dictums come down and the REAL training requirements need to be met........ no just CAP's!!

[RedFox24]

I didn’t hear many KYCAP call signs coming out of the western part of KY. 

And you wouldn't have because our mission for the guard we do not use the highbird nor KYCAP call signs for our role in that mission in Kentucky.  We also typically do not use CAP frequencies for that mission unless coordinating with ground assets.  So, your noticeable silence isn't unusual.

And I thought it was because you dont have any units in the west part of the state.

[KyCAP]

[
And I thought it was because you dont have any units in the west part of the state.

I think that Paducah Composite, Fulton, Bowling Green (x2), Fort Campbell would disagree with that.    Not to mention that conventional CAP radios and the EMA radio systems were INOP from the fact that 700,000 people were without power.  The members from that end of the state for the most part were in the disaster.

[KyCAP]

Lets face it that is REALITY of anything that may resemble being on the ground in a disaster area far away from ones homes.   I think the NHQ staff & volunteer leaders at that level really have a "fantasy" about how many members are actually going to be available and are going to show up after any disaster.   Some wings even have problems finding IC for "simple" mission right in the state

Even at the local/state level, the paid professional emergency planning staffs are very cautious about depending upon volunteers right from the area (and even close by) including CERT, Medical Reserve Corps, amateur radio (RACES/ARES) volunteers.  IF as a matter of government policy you won't pay someone (or at least feed & house them), won't cover them medically, or pay disability if they get hurt, don't expect too much    
RM

There were PLENTY of people from other wings in OTHER roles that stayed in Kentucky for aircraft missions and air operations.   I am NOT saying that no one would come.  We had dozens of "taskings" and flew tons of sorties for damage assesment and imagery from SEVERAL wings for almost a week.

When we were asked to specifically supply staff to supply the EMA IC's relief, we did not have it.   Maybe we had those people from other wings already deployed... We didn't have the folks to spare here in Kentucky either.   I didn't have power for a week and I started the mission with the NOC and 1st AF. 

I don't think that it would be fair to the other wings that participated with the "blanket" statement that you all are making.   There WERE people there for days on end, just none that replied to the query for this specific tasking is all that I was trying to say.

[KyCAP]

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/media/cms/Volunteer_Mar_Apr_Final_Lores_DA0E33EEADD32.pdf
Page 17 is where it starts..

91 air sorties (200 hobbs hours)
52 ground sorties
9600 man hours roughly

Over 100 CAP members (16 Cadets)
18 aircraft

Could not have been done without other wing support from our Region..

[Eclipse]

Nice save.   

[RiverAux]

Although I consider myself pretty experienced in mission staff work, even I would have hestiated to step in at such a high level role for another agency in a different state.  Heck, it would take me 3 days just to learn where the bathroom is. 

Call me in to run a CAP mission, sure, but I'm not sure that having the generic ICS training is really enough to fully take over a lead position like that.