Ground Team Uniform

[Jerry Jacobs]

Last I heard there was no official effort for a CAPM 39-1 compliant Ground Team Member Uniform.  So my idea for a Ground Team Uniform is an orange shirt which has your name and Ground Team rating on the front and Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue on the back.  The pants would be gray trail pants and any boot/sock combination you desire.  Cover would be orange or a squadron cover. 

The purpose of this uniform is to provide a more desirable/functional uniform for when it is Summer.  I'll post pictures, tell me what you think and add any suggestions.




Suggestions;
Instead of it saying GTM1 it should show the badge

[DC]

This might be more appropriate in the uniform area, and see CAWG's GT uniform (there are a zillion posts complaining about it).

There is nothing wrong with BDUs and BBDUs. If it ain't broke....

[JohnKachenmeister]

Something wrong with wearing the uniform of your country?

[DC]

What is with the short sleeved shirt and convertible pants? Based on your images, I'm going to assume that you are a GTM1. I would hope that you would have made considerable exertions to attain that rating, and that you have spent at least some time in the woods.

At least around here if you are not wearing long sleeves and have your pants bloused into your boots you will be eaten alive by the local insect life within minutes. Not to mention all of the cuts, scrapes, rashes, sun burns, etc that you will avoid my making a modest sacrifice to your immediate comfort.

[Jerry Jacobs]

Don't get me wrong, I love BDU's but sometimes would make our job easier.  When its cold BDU's are the way to go but if it is 100 degrees out I would rather be in lighterweight clothing such as the uniform above.  I think there should be a nationwide GT uniform that is available to any GT member for field activities.



Taking that into consideration I have changed the pant type.

If you want to you can wear a long sleeve jacket.

[arajca]

One problem is that there is not a uniform climate in the US.

[jeders]

If you want to you can wear a long sleeve jacket.

Which covers up the orange t-shirt, thus rendering it useless.

B/BDUs work just fine. As an aircrew member, I probably won't see you until you mirror flash me anyway simply because of distance.

As a ground team member, I'd rather have the heat, sun, bug, and scratch protection that my BDUs provide.

[arajca]

I think there should be a nationwide GT uniform that is available to any GT member for field activities.

There is. It's called the bdu or the field uniform. No reason to create a new uniform.

[mikeylikey]

OMG!  We can't even consider this.  What about Skin Cancer (the common theme from the Boonie Hat threads).  I mean, you will get skin cancer on your arms and on your legs!! 

NO!

Plus....BDU pants and an Orange SAR T-Shirt is worn in PAWG right now.  It looks awful. 

[0]

OMG!  We can't even consider this.  What about Skin Cancer (the common theme from the Boonie Hat threads).  I mean, you will get skin cancer on your arms and on your legs!! 

NO!

Plus....BDU pants and an Orange SAR T-Shirt is worn in PAWG right now.  It looks awful. 

Plus we don't need an orange shirt for visibility if we're wearing our vests.

Don't get me wrong, I love BDU's but sometimes would make our job easier.  When its cold BDU's are the way to go but if it is 100 degrees out I would rather be in lighterweight clothing such as the uniform above.  I think there should be a nationwide GT uniform that is available to any GT member for field activities.



Taking that into consideration I have changed the pant type.

If you want to you can wear a long sleeve jacket.

If you want something lighter wear the summer weight BDUs.  They're lighter so you don't get as hot wearing them.

[Thor]

I could see wearing that for maybe a SAR in an urban area on a hot day. I'm not too crazy about the pants; they look like they wouldn't vent well and would be very uncomfortable if they got wet. OD BDU pants might work. But then again, if 39-1 doesn't care about GT uniforms, why don't we just issue DCUs and tan flight suits to everyone for when it's hot (I wear the boots in the summer).

[mikeylikey]

wearing long sleeves will actually keep your core temp lower than if you wear short sleeves.  Thats why I don't understand the rolling of BDU sleeves.  It defeats the purpose of having long sleeves. 

Hell, most every service but the AF knows the benefits to not rolling your uniform sleeves.  In Iraq and AFGH everyone usually wears sleeves down, except the AF.

I also hate to see people in just bdu/acu/abu/marpat pants, and no blouse on.  We operate with full uniforms in 80 percent humidity and 110 degree weather overseas, but we assume we should take the blouse off when working in the states.  Stupid. 

Even at Encampments and CAP activities, I never take my blouse off.  It not only looks very unprofessional, but you are going to sweat with it on or off in the Summer.  If you sweat with it on, you actually can be cooler than if you take it off.

I wish these CAP "medical" folks at CAP activities would do some research, or read research done by the DOD already. 

As far as this uniform goes, No need for an Orange T-Shirt.  We have to wear an orange vest as onion already pointed out.  That should suffice.  if you are worried about being visible wear your vest and an orange hard hat. 

I also don't like khaki zip off pants.  They are so 1997.  Plus, only skateboarders wear pants like that.  I did when I went through my skateboard phase and worked for Vans. 

[Pylon]

But then again, if 39-1 doesn't care about GT uniforms....

What do you mean "it" doesn't care?  Civil Air Patrol provides for three distinct field uniform choices.  BDUs, Blue BDUs and the blue, corporate Utility Uniform.  Though mikeylikey has already pointed out that wearing uniforms the sleeves up or the shirt off is actually not good, CAPM 39-1 does give you those options as well.  Besides, people are constantly clamoring for more protection from the sun vis-a-vis the boonie hat - this orange uniform creation would significantly decrease sun protection, and protection from brush, debris and the environment in general.   Not to mention, our troops seem to be able to wear their field uniforms in significantly hotter forward AO's with sleeves down, and their full battle rattle on.   

Added on this is your requirement to wear a high-visibility reflective vest while conducting any GT operations anyways, it doesn't matter what the color of your uniform will be.  You'd have to wear an orange vest anyways.

On top of all of this, Civil Air Patrol needs to reduce the number of uniforms we have - not increase.  It already looks like a joint NATO mission every time you show up to a CAP SAREX.

So with the hot weather justification defeated, the visibility argument moot, and the organization wishing to not create any new uniforms, I'd say your shirt idea is probably not going to fly.

[0]

As far as this uniform goes, No need for an Orange T-Shirt.  We have to wear an orange vest as onion already pointed out.  That should suffice.  if you are worried about being visible wear your vest and an orange hard hat. 

um, it's Orion and not onion.   

So with the hot weather justification defeated, the visibility argument moot, and the organization wishing to not create any new uniforms, I'd say your shirt idea is probably not going to fly.

Well I too believe this idea won't fly it is a good demonstration of thinking outside the box and willingnes to speak one's mind.

[mikeylikey]

um, it's Orion and not onion.   

Sorry......someone was asking if I wanted onions on the pizza for dinner.........I can't do two things at a time, as apparent!   

[JohnKachenmeister]

If you wore that uniform in Florida you would be:

1.  Eaten alive by insects.

2.  Arrested for being an escaped State Prisoner.

3.  All of the above.

Wear the approved uniform of your country's Air Force.  It is our HONOR to do so.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I detest working in the woods in t-shirts.  They're too thin to prevent ripping and its easy for various sharp things to poke you.

[JayT]

A. Cost. How much would it cost to have individual tee shirts printed up with ratings?

B. Provides no sun protection, or protection from the climate, or bugs and what not.

C. Pants. Where can I buy them? Can I get them from a surplus store for $25 like I can BDU pants? Or do I have to hunt down a specalized outdoor store?

D. What if I don't want to wear it in the field? Is having this uniform such an important aspect of safety that I'm endangering myself, and my team by not wearing it? Unless the asnwer is a research supported "YES!" then I wouldn't waste my money.

We have three different uniforms for field work, not counting the polo shirt which can easily used for UDF and MB work. I'm sorry, but we're the Civil Air Patrol, and when on a SAR mission, we're the USAF Auxiliary. We're not the local shrieffs team, or whatever else. Wear the uniform of the organization.

Lets talk about field packs or gear, or navigation equipment, or field craft skills.

[lordmonar]

Don't get me wrong, I love BDU's but sometimes would make our job easier.  When its cold BDU's are the way to go but if it is 100 degrees out I would rather be in lighterweight clothing such as the uniform above.

When it is hot...you can always take off your BDU blouse.

  I think there should be a nationwide GT uniform that is available to any GT member for field activities.

And another uniform I would have to buy and maintain.

[Thor]

But then again, if 39-1 doesn't care about GT uniforms....

What do you mean "it" doesn't care?  Civil Air Patrol provides for three distinct field uniform choices.  BDUs, Blue BDUs and the blue, corporate Utility Uniform.  Though mikeylikey has already pointed out that wearing uniforms the sleeves up or the shirt off is actually not good, CAPM 39-1 does give you those options as well.  Besides, people are constantly clamoring for more protection from the sun vis-a-vis the boonie hat - this orange uniform creation would significantly decrease sun protection, and protection from brush, debris and the environment in general.   Not to mention, our troops seem to be able to wear their field uniforms in significantly hotter forward AO's with sleeves down, and their full battle rattle on.   

Added on this is your requirement to wear a high-visibility reflective vest while conducting any GT operations anyways, it doesn't matter what the color of your uniform will be.  You'd have to wear an orange vest anyways.

On top of all of this, Civil Air Patrol needs to reduce the number of uniforms we have - not increase.  It already looks like a joint NATO mission every time you show up to a CAP SAREX.

So with the hot weather justification defeated, the visibility argument moot, and the organization wishing to not create any new uniforms, I'd say your shirt idea is probably not going to fly.

I personally don't think "it" doesn't care. I was simply re-stating "Jerry Jacobs" sentence of "Last I heard there was no official effort for a CAPM 39-1 compliant Ground Team Member Uniform". Personally, I think 39-1 should still cover what we wear on missions/excercises. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to wear hiking boots in place of the combat boots, or extra cold weather gear that's not on the official list (I have a black fleece; its not in 39-1 but it is an actual uniform item),but the overall uniform should still be BDUs with the orange vest. As far as a whole new uniform, I think a T-shirt is the worst thing you can wear in a non-urban area, you have to buy more stuff you're not using on a regular basis, and anyone that sees you wearing that from an outside SAR organization will think you're out of your mind. My statement concerning DCUs and tan flight suits was a bit of sarcasm, since it is true that SAREXs are beginning to look like some NATO excercise.

[Pylon]

I personally don't think "it" doesn't care. I was simply re-stating "Jerry Jacobs" sentence of "Last I heard there was no official effort for a CAPM 39-1 compliant Ground Team Member Uniform". Personally, I think 39-1 should still cover what we wear on missions/excercises. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to wear hiking boots in place of the combat boots, or extra cold weather gear that's not on the official list (I have a black fleece; its not in 39-1 but it is an actual uniform item),but the overall uniform should still be BDUs with the orange vest.

I think the current array of uniform items is more than ample and has been meeting the needs of CAP Ground Teams in dozens of environments for decades.  CAPM 39-1 does give you the flexibility of buying different types of boots - you can get different brands, makes, for different purposes, with or without insulation for winter, with different types of soles, fabric sided or full leather, speed laced or not, and pretty much anything else so long as it's black, plain toed leather.   You can choose a simple cotton undershirt or maybe even a moisture-wicking one in brown or black.  You can choose to wear thermal undergarments if you need it, and you can wear M-65 field jackets or Goretex parkas with your BDUs.  You can choose to wear blue BDUs, woodland BDUs, utility uniform, blue and sage flight suits, and two different polo shirts if you don't count service uniforms.  You can wear your sleeves up or down, and can even remove your blouse in certain conditions.  You can wear a patrol cap, a mesh baseball cap, a beret in some cases or even a locally authorized baseball cap.  You can set-up your gear any way you like pretty much and wear anything from tac vests, to LBEs to just about any gear set-up that you prefer.  You can choose to wear web belts w/ canteens, or wear a camelbak, and even choose to clip a communications device to your belt.

I think our current uniforms offer enough flexibility, practicality, and options to get the job done in 95% of the cases.  And we don't write the rules for the 5% exceptions because everybody thinks they're the exception.

[sarmed1]

I wish these CAP "medical" folks at CAP activities would do some research, or read research done by the DOD already.

as a frequent medical guy at activites I have tried to correct the myth that long sleeves make you hotter.  Unfortunately its not the medical types that make this decsion, I usually get trumped by the safety weenies who try and quote somy mythical safrty reference to deblousing when they reach condition red, based on the temperature?  (of course they are making an effort to conform to temperature conditions based on WBGT readings which I have never seen anyone in CAP (except myself) be able to measure)

mk

[mikeylikey]

^ Exactly!!  WBGT is designed for work/rest/water consumption rates. 

[hatentx]

I went the entire time in Iraq with full ACU.  No rolled up sleeves or anything and lasted jsut fine.  The 1st Cav's thought is it keeps you cooler with the long sleeves and keeps you from burning which would make being out there even worse.  It may be hot but as they say in the Army "drink water, drive on"

[mikeylikey]

^ Same here.  I love it when Cadets walk over to me and say "oh Sir, didn't you hear, its 85 degrees out, we are supposed to untuck our shirt, and remove our blouses, and untuck our pants legs from our boots".  I usually say "huh, you don't say" and walk away.

I think it is an AF thing that CAP members picked up.  Plus, rolling of sleeves only works (looks sexy) on guys and ladies with massive arms!   

[hatentx]

true and god know i join because I know women love men in uniform so I figured if i was wearing more than one uniform it would better my chance getting the ladies.  Maybe that is why the Army when with the ACU that you cant roll up the sleeves.  Tired of people looking sexy

[gistek]

Why not just put a name tape and the Civil Air Patrol tape on the front of an orange vest. Cloth rank tabs can be sewn on to the shoulders and "Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue" could be screen printed on the back. (and if you want to get fancy, sew a name tape on the back as well.)

Then it wouldn't matter what color t-shirt you wear, or even the type of coat for cold weather activities.

And don't worry about what it looks like from the air. I've talked with several mission pilots and they really can't see us unless we're out in a large open field. (and how many lost planes or people do we find in large open fields?)

[afgeo4]

1. A lot of downed airplanes are found in large, open fields (that's where pilots try to crash land).

2. Orange (ground team) and Yellow (flightline) reflective vests with Civil Air Patrol imprinted are found on Vanguard's website. Grade is irrelevant since it doesn't matter in the field. I do suggest spray painting your last name on the outside using stencils so you can be easily identified from the back.

[JohnKachenmeister]

afge:

1.  that is generally right.  The problem comes in when the MISS the field, or land on it but run out of field and end up in the woods.  It happens.

2.  The CAP vest on Vanguard is way pricer than a simlar vest at Gall's.  Spray-painting is ugly.  If you have a cloth (not the thin mesh material) vest, the blue nametapes are perfectly OK.    They also help keep people from stealing your vest.

[SarDragon]

Why not just put a name tape and the Civil Air Patrol tape on the front of an orange vest. Cloth rank tabs can be sewn on to the shoulders and "Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue" could be screen printed on the back. (and if you want to get fancy, sew a name tape on the back as well.)

Then it wouldn't matter what color t-shirt you wear, or even the type of coat for cold weather activities.

And don't worry about what it looks like from the air. I've talked with several mission pilots and they really can't see us unless we're out in a large open field. (and how many lost planes or people do we find in large open fields?)

Nah, we can't do that. Then it would look too much like CAWG's GT uniform that everyone likes to complain about, except that no rank insignia are worn. BTW, its wear has been suspended until it gets authorization by NHQ.

[isuhawkeye]

I recently found this site for vests
www.thevestguy.com

[husker]

Sardragon, do you know when that photo of the CAWG uniform was taken?

[Eclipse]

Nah, we can't do that. Then it would look too much like CAWG's GT uniform that everyone likes to complain about, except that no rank insignia are worn. BTW, its wear has been suspended until it gets authorization by NHQ.

Was it "re-suspended" after the Winter boards?

From what I understand, it was temporarily suspended pending the board meeting, then reinstated after verbiage about Wing CC's being authorized local uniforms was approved.

[Eclipse]

I recently found this site for vests
www.thevestguy.com

That is one of the most perfect vests for 95% of CAP work I have seen.
(though at $80 its somewhat pricey)

[SarDragon]

Sardragon, do you know when that photo of the CAWG uniform was taken?

Yes, 29 July 2001. Why do you ask?

[SarDragon]

Nah, we can't do that. Then it would look too much like CAWG's GT uniform that everyone likes to complain about, except that no rank insignia are worn. BTW, its wear has been suspended until it gets authorization by NHQ.

Was it "re-suspended" after the Winter boards?

From what I understand, it was temporarily suspended pending the board meeting, then reinstated after verbiage about Wing CC's being authorized local uniforms was approved.

The last intel I have is that wear is suspended, I'm guessing until after the winter board meeting.

[husker]

Sardragon, do you know when that photo of the CAWG uniform was taken?

Yes, 29 July 2001. Why do you ask?

PM Sent

[JohnKachenmeister]

Ooooo... Secret stuff about the California Wing!   

Seriously, I saw in the Gall's catalog a very similar orange vest that was a lot cheaper.

If it is cheaper from Gall's, that is a historic event in and of itself!

[Eclipse]

yeah, there's a lot of places to get this style cheaper, including that guy on eBay, but in that these can be easily custom printed, I thought they were cool.

This is twice what I'd pay for it....

[Hawk200]

I wish these CAP "medical" folks at CAP activities would do some research, or read research done by the DOD already.

as a frequent medical guy at activites I have tried to correct the myth that long sleeves make you hotter.  Unfortunately its not the medical types that make this decsion, I usually get trumped by the safety weenies who try and quote somy mythical safrty reference to deblousing when they reach condition red, based on the temperature?  (of course they are making an effort to conform to temperature conditions based on WBGT readings which I have never seen anyone in CAP (except myself) be able to measure)

mk

Seen that myth myself. As I haven't been in the Air Force at the time that they started to get serious about that, I can only speak about what the Army does.

Army wise, the medics make that analysis, the reccomendation is made to whoever is in charge of the activity. It's almost never ignored, and even the Safety person listens to the medics on this issue. Nowadays, the Army requires the use of a wet bulb thermometer to check for the heat category. I believe the medics perform this check. Unless the AF has been doing more field work lately and accounts for this, I think the Army way should be adopted.

When it comes to the higher heat cat's, we start pulling body armor. Then it's unblousing boots. Jackets are worn closed only with the Velcro tabs, the zipper isn't used. Helmets come off, and either the soft cap or boonie is worn(I didn't push the boonie before, but I've been using one at Sill on the flightline, and am a believer in it's effectiveness). If it gets hot enough, then t-shirts are removed, but the jackets are still worn (Females were issued sports bras so they can do this as well while still maintaining modesty). The cuff closures are opened up fully. Sometimes when  boot blousing is removed, we'll be directed to roll the pant leg up on the outside to the top of the boot. Water consumption is pushed, and we're even reccomended to pour water on ourselves if we feel too hot.

I don't think it would be something really applicable to CAP, as we don't have the same type of mission, but the Army now has an undershirt designed specifically for wear with body armor that has a mesh on most of the torso. It's cooler, but is still long sleeved. Uncovering as many body parts as possible is not necessarily the answer to dealing with eposure.

As for removing jackets, one thing that comes to mind is the cultures in the desert were we're currently conducting war. Those people there tend to be covered, quite literally, from head to toe. On longer travels, only part of the face and the hands are visible. If these people could get sunglasses and thin gloves easily, they would probably wear them. Even though heat is a factor, the sun is an issue. These folks have been doing this for thousands of years, and it works.

When it comes to CONUS, we still have many lessons to learn, both individually and collectively, when it comes to dealing with the heat. I think we need to consider that in our uniform choices and operations. A uniform is a tool, just like any other, but it's one with more flexibility that we use.

[maverik]

Last I heard there was no official effort for a CAPM 39-1 compliant Ground Team Member Uniform.  So my idea for a Ground Team Uniform is an orange shirt which has your name and Ground Team rating on the front and Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue on the back.  The pants would be gray trail pants and any boot/sock combination you desire.  Cover would be orange or a squadron cover. 

The purpose of this uniform is to provide a more desirable/functional uniform for when it is Summer.  I'll post pictures, tell me what you think and add any suggestions.




Suggestions;
Instead of it saying GTM1 it should show the badge

You got the right idea but......... you need to design one for all climates and also I love the reflectiveness. Just don't wnat to wear a short sleeve SAR shirt out in the thorns of Indiana

[SarDragon]

Somehow I missed the edit that added the pix in the first post.

Here's what was available from the Bookstore some years ago. I got them at a closeout sale at a wing conference.





They look kinda kool, and have a pocket, but the functionality is lacking. I wore them out on a flight line once, and they didn't even work well there.

I think what's in the CAWG supplement is a good starting place.

YMMV.

[NM SAR]

Honestly don't see the need. Another uniform to maintain. I like to shuck my blouse out in the field because I like my arms uncovered. Others like long sleeve. Current uniforms in effect allow for both options. As for visibility, get the most obnoxious orange vest you can find. Also, the white t-shirt specified for the BBDU is much more visible than the black for the standard BDU.

[SarDragon]

Nice 1767 day necro.

[Luis R. Ramos]

It is another Zombie thread...

Flyer