How we help an urban area

[RiverAux]

I don't think the CERT program has really proven itself as of yet for its primary purpose of helping neighbors in your own community.  Some folks are apparently wanting to transform it beyond that into more "deployable" units.  That is also fine, but it isn't what it is designed for.  It provides just enough training for people to address fairly straightforward local situations, but nowhere near enough training to be of real use for anything else. 

[isuhawkeye]

 :clap:

[Eclipse]

My friend who is a local PD and CERT coordinator says that the team(s) he's seen are about what you would expect when a group of neighbors get together and take a few first aid and related classes.

Nice in a pinch, but not exactly John Gage and Roy Desoto...

[floridacyclist]

They're not supposed to be John and Roy...and we're not exactly Rampart either. When the Groundhog Day tornadoes tore up The Villages and Volusia County, the FD was not allowed in until daylight because of all the debris and power lines in the streets. Until they could get in, CERT was all there was.

There is a new ES Specialty Track in the 60-3 draft called CERT...the basic qualification would be to be CERT-ified. Nobody seems to be sure exactly how we would use them, but that sounds like a good start to any DR training program. FL Wing used to have a 101DR certification for all DR responders, but that kind of faded away; I think that the new CERT might work along the same lines, as a basic prerequisite to working in a disaster zone. Given that much of the CERT training focuses on how to stay alive during and after a disaster, it seems very appropriate for any team that is planning to venture outside their homes after a disaster and before things are back to normal. I would definitely want it even for a team that does nothing more than pass out water, food, and ice at a POD (Point of Distribution).

[afgeo4]

CERT is a volunteer, neighborhood based organization trained to be activated by local and federal OEMs. However, they do not work with cadets. They do not do SAR, Counter Narcotics, Homeland Security and other missions we do. They also don't fly. Nor do they have a cadet program. They do not perform Aerospace Education.

In all, they are nothing like CAP. CAP's primary missions are Aerospace Ed, Emergency Services and Cadet Programs. Disaster relief and preparation for it are the sole missions of CERT while those jobs are just part of our extensive ES mission.

In short, we do a heck of a lot more than CERT does. However, CAP members may join CERT to train for DR and CAP unis can qualify to become CERT teams on their own. I'm not quite clear on which activation takes precedence though during an emergency. Does CAP override CERT or the other way around? I presume since they're both volunteer organizations, the member gets to choose what he/she wants to activate for. I wouldn't mind clarification on that though.

Any people here CERT team members?

[davedove]

I always understood that CERT teams activated themselves.  Their job is to do emergency lifesaving and such before the responders arrive.

[floridacyclist]

We don't have an organized CERT team here, but my family and I have all been through the CERT TTT class and are certified to teach the class. We simply have too much on our plates to take on the role of trying to organize the neighborhood although I think it would be an excellent idea.

[flyguy06]

I think CERT would be good for CAP. Too many people in CAP think they are Johnny Ranger SAR God. CERT is a group of volunteers. CAP is a group of volunteers.

CAP goes out to the woods and looks for lost airplanes. thats great. CERT does more DR stuff. thats great. Guess what? CAP has a DR mission as well. Look at Katrina. CAP was all up in that. NO ELT searches, just good plain DR stuff and we did a good job from what I read inthe paper ( I was in Iraq at the time unfortunantly).

SO, I have no problem having my cadets work in an EOC, nab radios or do a radio log for Fire, PD, and EMS and other agencies. Its a good character building excercise. We all dont want to grab our "gear" and get ina long line and tramp through the woods. That doesnt make you better than someon that works in a Disater shelter. Its all about serivce to your fellow human being.

[RiverAux]

I think everybody is for CAP getting more involved on the ground in disaster relief. 

However, our GT program is far superior in regards to SAR.
Take a First Aid Class and you'll actually have a useful certificiation that you won't get from the CERT med section.
Add some disaster psychology and thats the CERT program.

So, why waste time diverting somebody into CERT when our program, with the addition of a First Aid class gives you a much more qualified person? 

[Major Lord]

CERT volunteers  must be 18 years old and pass a criminal background check. That pretty much eliminates Cadets from participation. During Katrina, CAP cadets were not allowed to play. I think your chances of getting CAP to buy into cross-training members as CERT is about as likely as their authorizing medical people to provide disaster medical services....

Emergency Services is not one of the requirements of the Cadet Program. There is however, a need for Cadets and Seniors in the urban realm in UDF. Why try to create a new mission when my guess if that you are not keeping up with the basic UDF needs of the community, and utilizing cadets in this "entry level" ES position?

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

Well, UDF is not a major mission in all urban areas, even quite large ones with major airports. 

[Major Lord]

I certainly agree, although a large number of UDF missions go unprosecuted throughout the country, and are assumed by other agencies. While our friend in the inner city could potentially train cadets in CERT ( they woud have to carve out an exception to their policy, which CAP would almost certainly be called on to endorse and insure....) They could NEVER run a mission under CAP auspices. Training cadets to run missions which they are prohibited from participating in seems pointless and cruel.

Cadets can run Ground Team Missions. Why not train them to do what we actually do, instead of trying to carve out a new "Explorer" program out of whole cloth? These cadets are apparently afraid of forests, but who is to say that if they actually see one, they may feel otherwise?

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

Where are you getting stuff about training cadets to run missions?  Never seen that proposed before. 

[flyguy06]

I think everybody is for CAP getting more involved on the ground in disaster relief. 

However, our GT program is far superior in regards to SAR.
Take a First Aid Class and you'll actually have a useful certificiation that you won't get from the CERT med section.
Add some disaster psychology and thats the CERT program.

So, why waste time diverting somebody into CERT when our program, with the addition of a First Aid class gives you a much more qualified person?

How many missions have you been on where you actuially had to use First Aid? In my exoerience when I was acadet, all the missions I went on, First Aid wasnt neccessary. It was usually too late.

Who said my cadets were afraid of the forests? I said they arent interested in going to the woods. Plus we dont have the resources to train up a Garound Team. I am not GT certified. So, who is going to do it? We dont have a practice ELT nor do we have a DF. So, again, who is going to train this Ground Team and where do we get the resources? We don thave enough people to do a fund raising event. We have to use the resources we have on hand.

Tags - MIKE

[isuhawkeye]

where did you say you were?

[Eclipse]

Plus we dont have the resources to train up a Garound Team. I am not GT certified. So, who is going to do it?

We dont have a practice ELT nor do we have a DF. So, again, who is going to train this Ground Team and where do we get the resources?

Download the task guides and start working through the parts one at a time.  When you're ready, request
that an SET come down to see you.

You can get a whole lot done before you ever need to touch a beacon or an l-per, and when you're ready you can borrow one.

[RiverAux]

How many missions have you been on where you actuially had to use First Aid? In my exoerience when I was acadet, all the missions I went on, First Aid wasnt neccessary. It was usually too late.

None.  My point was that the CERT training program has a first aid component and that a CAP ground team member who has completed a Basic First Aid class would have exceeded the CERT member by having an actual recognized first aid certification. 

[afgeo4]

I think everybody is for CAP getting more involved on the ground in disaster relief. 

However, our GT program is far superior in regards to SAR.
Take a First Aid Class and you'll actually have a useful certificiation that you won't get from the CERT med section.
Add some disaster psychology and thats the CERT program.

So, why waste time diverting somebody into CERT when our program, with the addition of a First Aid class gives you a much more qualified person? 

1. GTM qualification doesn't require a "certified" class. Any first aid/buddy aid class will do. There is no specification on what type it has to be. It also doesn't require CPR/AED. Most people on the street/office building have more certification than that, so what's your point?

2. Y'all still miss the point here. THERE IS NO SAR IN DENSE URBAN AREAS! Forget it. It doesn't exist. Sure, you can train for it. Train some more. Then some more... sure, it builds character... for a while... until you start questioning what good you are fully trained and ready to go with hundreds of dollars spent on gear and training. Then a disaster happens and you figure out that you really aren't useful with your shelter building and survival skills because you have no idea of how to work in an urban disaster zone which DOES require special skills and knowledge. So then you sit on you sofa, like a goof, wishing you'd been prepared. Much like those CERT people who are out there doing what they're meant to do.

The challenge is to custom tailor your training to your mission and your mission to your environment. That's something we haven't done yet.


ECLIPSE... where's the SET going to come from? The skies? In most rural areas, squadrons are separated by tens if not hundreds of miles. On top of that, someone in the other squadron has to be trained, current, SET qualified, available, and willing to come and train you... a few times. That's a lot of "ifs" for a basic qualification and a process you're going to have to re-do over again in a couple of years.

[Eclipse]

2. Y'all still miss the point here. THERE IS NO SAR IN DENSE URBAN AREAS! Forget it. It doesn't exist.

Metro Chicago?  No.

Boone County, IL, 90 minutes away?  Yes.

Where do most of the members live?  Somewhere in-between.

ECLIPSE... where's the SET going to come from? The skies?

Yes, quite literally. Last time I checked, we had the largest private fleet of general aviation aircraft in the world, with plenty of pilots dying to fly.

In most rural areas, squadrons are separated by tens if not hundreds of miles. On top of that, someone in the other squadron has to be trained, current, SET qualified, available, and willing to come and train you... a few times. That's a lot of "ifs" for a basic qualification and a process you're going to have to re-do over again in a couple of years.

So, you can sit and complain about how there is no way to get started, or you can grab the book, teach yourselves, and then arrange for a good SET to come down and work with you.

In the meantime, your people are learning something, doing what they joined for, and preparing themselves to answer the door when opportunity knocks.

If you do this on or over a weekend as the culmination of a training cycle (oh, say quarterly), even the gas doesn't cost that much, and split across 10 or 20 people, is nothing, if you consider that they may walk away from the weekend operational or close to it.

And don't forget your wing has a training budget for exactly this kind of situation.

By the next time you need to requal, yo should be self-sufficient and be able to do the stuff on your own.

Also, some of this stuff doesn't even require the physical presence of the SET.  If in the world of SKYPE, free video conferencing, and unlimited cel minutes you can't figure out a way to remotely task the fam & prep for
UDF-T, well you're just making excuses.

People complete entire college educations via correspondence courses, connecting with motivated CAP people to get some start-up training and build a program isn't nearly as hard.

You can make excuses, or make a plan.  Whether you want to is the issue.

[floridacyclist]

CERT volunteers  must be 18 years old and pass a criminal background check. That pretty much eliminates Cadets from participation. During Katrina, CAP cadets were not allowed to play. I think your chances of getting CAP to buy into cross-training members as CERT is about as likely as their authorizing medical people to provide disaster medical services....

I somehow doubt that CERT-trained CAP members are expected to report in uniform to work under the command of the Hootin Holler Homeowner's Association CERT team, but rather to use their training to fulfill CAP's DR roles; as stated before, it would be excellent training as a base level for anyone working in a disaster area.

The 18yo and background check rule is required of members of established CERT teams and even that is not iron-clad as can be seen at http://www.teencert.org/

Teaching our cadets to react appropriately even outside a mission should be a good thing, not something to be spit on simply because it doesn't mesh with someone's idea of ES. If our cadets can start coordinating and assisting with Teen CERT classes at their schools, is that such a bad thing?

In Katrina, the decision was made that the overall disaster zone was too hazardous for cadets. It was a one-time decision affecting that incident only, not a blanket decision for all disasters. Could they do it again? Sure....if things were that bad again. Most disasters are nowhere near the scale of Katrina thank God. Even so, cadets could still work mission base and communications, they were just not allowed out in the field on the roving teams. Why they were not put to work as mission base personnel is beyond me unless someone in their infinite wisdom had made a decision that that kind of training was too boring for cadets and that they could make better use of their time training on search and rescue since some feel that is the only mission they are supposed to do.

Let's face it...UDF is practically dead, if not where you live then definitely where we are. We have not been called on a UDF mission in almost 6 months now simply because most ELTs are turned off by their owners after receiving a call from AFRCC. Trying to get cadets interested in getting really good with an elper is getting harder and harder, but for some odd reason they seem to think that basic disaster training might be at least a little relevant around here. We have the qualified people to cover our missions and most of our cadets are almost to the GTM3 level thanks to our GTM academy (2 weekends of training followed by a weekend of exercise and evaluation), so it's not like we'd be sacrificing our ability to perform bread-and-butter missions in favor of playing DR gods.