Got denied a call sign...

[Stonewall]

So, I sent in my FLWG Form 21 requesting a call sign.  I've got 4 radios but only one squeeks by the NTIA compliant requirement because it "hasn't been tested".

Notice: Radios meeting the "Narrowband Pre 1/06", but failing to meet or not having been tested to the "Narrowband Post 1/06" standards may continue to be used until the end of their life cycle, if acquired or placed in service prior to Jan 2006 (Ref: 47 CFR 300 5.3.5.2, Effective Dates).  "N/A" in the "Narrowband Compliant Post 1/06" column indicates the radio was not tested to the New Standards by the manufacturer.

I get this via email:

Do you have a receipt showing this radio was purchased prior to 1/06?

According to the pre 1/06 test this radio will not pass the post 1/06 test.

My thought on this:  You've got a guy (me) who has a radio that is clearly exempt from the NTIA standard because it wasn't tested, which means it can still be used.  I am an asset to the areas SAR effort being qualified up to Ground Branch Director along with being an EMT and having my own radio.  But I can't get a call sign because I can't show a receipt for the purchase of this radio.

Every radio I have is at least 10 years old.  I'm sorry, but I don't have a receipt.  Not to mention, this model radio hasn't been manufactured since 1/06, so how could it have been "put in service" for the first time sicne 1/06?

So now I'll have to spend what, $1000 to become "compliant".  This is crap.

[Sgt. Savage]

Some people take their jobs too seriously. I'll give you a call sign.... "Fuzzy Bunny"

Too late, already stuck.... (Sorry Geico)

[Stonewall]

^Laugh it up, Fuzz Ball...

I should have just kept my membership with NATCAP along with my call sign and offered my assistance to FLWG.

But yeah, some people take their jobs so seriously that it effects others negatively. 

[Stonewall]

I've got an Alinco DJ-580 (dual band) HT, a DR-140 Mobile, a Vertex VS-150 HT, and a Motorola MT 2000 HT.  I'm thinking, well over $2000 worth of comms gear that works perfectly.  But someone, somewhere, said "throw it all away, it's worthless, spend $2000 on just one radio".

Grrrr....sometimes I hate things.   

[Eclipse]

A decode of the serial number might be able to help this, if its really old enough, it should be obvious.

Otherwise perhaps the Wing DC will accept an affidavit or your testimony as to when it was purchased.

[JC004]

A decode of the serial number might be able to help this, if its really old enough, it should be obvious.

Otherwise perhaps the Wing DC will accept an affidavit or your testimony as to when it was purchased.

...or a donut.  Remember never to rule out donuts.

[Major Lord]

Kirt,

Contact by PM off line.

Allen

[Stonewall]

A decode of the serial number might be able to help this, if its really old enough, it should be obvious.

I think it is obvious.  You can even go to the Motorola website where it says it is no longer manufactured.

CaptLord, PM sent.

[Stonewall]

CNX OPORD for night time infil.  Al is okay, I got approved after explaining that the radio wasn't manufactured after 1/06 and copied the DCWG Commo God who helped out.

Standby for some whacky transmissions in FLWG...    :angel: 

[JohnKachenmeister]

CNX OPORD for night time infil.  Al is okay, I got approved after explaining that the radio wasn't manufactured after 1/06 and copied the DCWG Commo God who helped out.

Standby for some whacky transmissions in FLWG...    :angel: 

I gave up buying radios after all my old ones were ruled "Non-Compliant."

[Eclipse]

Every radio I have is at least 10 years old.  I'm sorry, but I don't have a receipt.  Not to mention, this model radio hasn't been manufactured since 1/06, so how could it have been "put in service" for the first time sicne 1/06?

Just for the record, the key is "in service" - it could easily have sat on a shelf since Jan 06 and only been unwrapped today.  I don't agree, I'm just saying.

[floridacyclist]

CNX OPORD for night time infil.  Al is okay, I got approved after explaining that the radio wasn't manufactured after 1/06 and copied the DCWG Commo God who helped out.

Standby for some whacky transmissions in FLWG...    :angel: 

Dang..and I missed the HF net tonight LOL

[Stonewall]

Every radio I have is at least 10 years old.  I'm sorry, but I don't have a receipt.  Not to mention, this model radio hasn't been manufactured since 1/06, so how could it have been "put in service" for the first time sicne 1/06?

Just for the record, the key is "in service" - it could easily have sat on a shelf since Jan 06 and only been unwrapped today.  I don't agree, I'm just saying.

I hear ya, but it's been "in service" for several years now. 

Sorry, Gene.  No HF here, plus I'm at drill this weekend.

[Eclipse]

Every radio I have is at least 10 years old.  I'm sorry, but I don't have a receipt.  Not to mention, this model radio hasn't been manufactured since 1/06, so how could it have been "put in service" for the first time sicne 1/06?

Just for the record, the key is "in service" - it could easily have sat on a shelf since Jan 06 and only been unwrapped today.  I don't agree, I'm just saying.

I hear ya, but it's been "in service" for several years now. 

Sorry, Gene.  No HF here, plus I'm at drill this weekend.

Was it licensed within CAP?  If it was it should be a non-issue and should already be on the books.  The "in service", for CAP's purpose, refers only to CAP.  (i.e. a donated 5-year old HT100 from your local PD is still a "new" radio to CAP).

[Fifinella]

Some people take their jobs too seriously.

"The power to obstruct, exercised by self-important people, is the real bureaucratic evil." – Louis B. Lundborg

[Slim]

CNX OPORD for night time infil.  Al is okay, I got approved after explaining that the radio wasn't manufactured after 1/06 and copied the DCWG Commo God who helped out.

Standby for some whacky transmissions in FLWG...    :angel: 

UK...Did you get that bad boy reprogrammed yet?

[JC004]

You need HF so you can transmit your madness even further...   :angel:

[Pylon]

The recent mess with radios is just that.  A mess.


Sorry you got caught up in the red tape that excludes members who don't have thousands of dollars in personal, disposable funds to support a group you volunteer you time for.

[Stonewall]

CNX OPORD for night time infil.  Al is okay, I got approved after explaining that the radio wasn't manufactured after 1/06 and copied the DCWG Commo God who helped out.

Standby for some whacky transmissions in FLWG...    :angel: 

UK...Did you get that bad boy reprogrammed yet?

I couldn't get anyone in FLWG to give me a freq plan so I only have 6 channels programmed.  In DCWG we had 32 channels programmed the same on all radios.  I emailed and talked to several comms people last year and no one seemed to know or want to give me the comm plan.

[floridacyclist]

I'll get with you via email...I have a 32-channel plan that covers all repeaters in FL, GA, and AL I just need to dig it out of my Kenwood software.

[a2capt]

Heh.. 32 channel plan that covers three states. A 40 channel plan is barely enough for California. .. Of course, we have these big piles of dirt everywhere...

[Stonewall]

Yeah, in NATCAP wing, we had a 32 channel comm plan, but it covered repeaters throughout MD and VA that we used regularly as well as several mutual aid freqs.  Plans vary by location and size of geographical responsibility.  And I guess with MOU among other agencies.

[SDF_Specialist]

Might I suggest contacting your wing DC to see if there are radios that can be issued? It never hurts to ask, just to be answered (then laughed at, then the butt of jokes for at least 10 years).

[Hartley]

Hi Guys,

  Glad to see that the FLWG folks listened to reason regarding your MT2K.

  Here's the scoop on corporate radios:  if you are in a position that needs a radio to support the AF mission, there is supposed to be a radio for you - it may not be the one you think you want, but there is supposed to be one.

  You don't have one, and they told you you can't have one? - some possibilities:

1.  Your radio went to someone else who doesn't need it but who has some sort of "pull" (like a CC, or maybe an old bud of the guy with the radios) - the solution here may be a bit painful, but you're going to have to work it thru your chain of command, with an IG complaint as a last resort.  Get a copy of the TA and refer to it often (and be respectful :-) )
2.  Your Wing comm program manager has a room full of radios somewhere and no time/energy/motivation to get 'em out to the folks who need 'em.  This will also require (respectful) agitation, possibly involving the chain of command - then again, you might be able to help by assisting the DC in getting them out (it really is a lot of work, and they NEED people they can trust to get this stuff issued).
3.  Your position isn't covered in the TA, but you really need a radio.  This one will require getting with your Ops folks as well as Comm in order to get the TA updated - and everyone else in a similar situation will love you for it.  Come right down to it, a board like CAP-Talk would be a GREAT place to organize such an update and get it done!
4.  Your position doesn't really need a radio, so if you want to be a part of "the action" you have to own your own.  Not much I can say here, but this seems a lot like those spiffy uniforms I see some folks wearing - if you want to play along, it will cost ya.. (Come And Pay and all that)


73 DE Hartley

[IceNine]

Since you brought it up,


I know where to find the TA, but I don't know how to read it.

Is there a simplified table, users guide, or set of definitions? That could help us fight these battles

[Hartley]

Hi,

  Unfortunately, no - only the explanatory paragraphs at the beginning.  [Sri about the delay - was out for the weekend.. ]
  But it isn't all that complicated if you break it down -  there are two sections, Tactical Communications and Command and Control Communications, which are further broken down into "Mission Critical" (the most important) and "Mission Essential" (next most important) [and there is a third category not included in the TA: "Mission Support", which is "least important"].
  Under Tactical - Mission Critical, you have ICs, Ground/UDF teams and Mobile ICPs, while Mission Essential encompasses ICPs (standalone and co-located with Wing HQs), Staging Bases (standalone & co-located with unit HQs).
  Under Command and Control - Mission Essential you have the National Ops Center (NOC), Region and Wing message centers and the "Wing Comm System", while Mission Essential includes the NTC, Wing & Unit HQs and some other riff-raff..

Down the left side of these two tables you have equipment, and inside the various blocks formed are either quantities, notes, or both (notes are at the bottom of each table)

  There are separate tables showing the max quantities of "mission elements" for your Wing - how many GTs, etc., that the AF is willing to support in your Wing. (in general, this number is higher than the number you actually have)  Keep in mind that numbers (and locations) of some items like repeaters are set up in other systems and only the totals are shown in the TA.

  Hope this helps!

73 DE Hartley

p.s. I've attached the latest version of the TA for those who DON'T know where to find it!
HJG

[Stonewall]

Just got the call, somewhere, someone, did something or perhaps a regulation changed, but I got myself a call sign...

[Tubacap]

semi-serious question, are callsigns FOUO?

[SSgt Rudin]

I sure hope not since any one who wants to can view the FLWG ROA list. http://flwg.us/html/roa_database.html

[Psicorp]

Just got the call, somewhere, someone, did something or perhaps a regulation changed, but I got myself a call sign...

Congrats, sir!

It does bring up an interesting question though: if the Wing is issuing callsigns to individuals, then what does it matter if you have a radio (compliant or not)?   If they want to be that picky that your radio must be compliant first, then it seems they're more along the lines of assigning the callsign to the radio and you're just authorized to use it.

[SSgt Rudin]

Just got the call, somewhere, someone, did something or perhaps a regulation changed, but I got myself a call sign...

Congrats, sir!

It does bring up an interesting question though: if the Wing is issuing callsigns to individuals, then what does it matter if you have a radio (compliant or not)?   If they want to be that picky that your radio must be compliant first, then it seems they're more along the lines of assigning the callsign to the radio and you're just authorized to use it.

SERIOUSLY! this crap is so confusing, everyone tells me that call signs are assigned to radio's not personnel, yet I have a SM in my squadron who has 3 personal radios but only one call sign, and "they" have not response to that.

[jimmydeanno]

My wing we have both.

If the radio is installed in a van or something, anyone using that radio that doesn't have their own personal callsign uses it.  If they have their own they use that.  For ES related stuff we are usually given specific callsigns for the mission, GT 1, GT 2, etc.

For example, say I'm driving down the road in the squadron van with the Wing King.  I don't have a personal call sign so I use the radios, Jimmy 100.  Then someone calls the Wing King, Jimmy 1.  I'd assume most other wings use the same procedure.

[JoeTomasone]

Just got the call, somewhere, someone, did something or perhaps a regulation changed, but I got myself a call sign...

Congrats, sir!

It does bring up an interesting question though: if the Wing is issuing callsigns to individuals, then what does it matter if you have a radio (compliant or not)?   If they want to be that picky that your radio must be compliant first, then it seems they're more along the lines of assigning the callsign to the radio and you're just authorized to use it.

SERIOUSLY! this crap is so confusing, everyone tells me that call signs are assigned to radio's not personnel, yet I have a SM in my squadron who has 3 personal radios but only one call sign, and "they" have not response to that.

In FLWG, callsigns are issued to individuals/vehicles, not radios.   

As to why not everyone that is ACUT is issued a callsign unless they have a radio?   I would surmise it's for two reasons:

1.  If you don't have a radio, you likely won't be operating a radio except in a mission/exercise situation where you'll likely have a tactical callsign issued

2. You'd quickly run out of callsigns.   In FLWG, each Group only has 100 callsigns to go 'round. 


To simplify the TOA - if you are a ground team LEADER (not member), you should be issued a VHF mobile, VHF portable, and ISRs.    If you are a UDF team leader, a VHF mobile and ISRs.     Note that FLWG requires a list of who normally makes up that team, and they all must be GT/UDF qualified.   Others (such as ICs, CCs, and DCs) are on the TOA as well in varying categories of priority, along with mission bases, etc.  But normally speaking, the highest priority is GT/UDF. 

[ammotrucker]

I would not feel bad Stonewall.  I was issued a new radio by FLWG.  It is a nice EFJohnson 5317.

I has had this radio for 3 months and i'm still waiting on my Call Sign

[SSgt Rudin]

In FLWG, callsigns are issued to individuals/vehicles, not radios.   

As to why not everyone that is ACUT is issued a callsign unless they have a radio?   I would surmise it's for two reasons:

1.  If you don't have a radio, you likely won't be operating a radio except in a mission/exercise situation where you'll likely have a tactical callsign issued

2. You'd quickly run out of callsigns.   In FLWG, each Group only has 100 callsigns to go 'round. 

To simplify the TOA - if you are a ground team LEADER (not member), you should be issued a VHF mobile, VHF portable, and ISRs.    If you are a UDF team leader, a VHF mobile and ISRs.     Note that FLWG requires a list of who normally makes up that team, and they all must be GT/UDF qualified.   Others (such as ICs, CCs, and DCs) are on the TOA as well in varying categories of priority, along with mission bases, etc.  But normally speaking, the highest priority is GT/UDF. 

Well maybe someone should review how our call sign are assigned. with only 100 call signs per group that only gives us 1000 call signs available, there are 3459 members in FLWG (according to e-services) if we just reassigned everyone a call sign, we could just assign a call sign to everyone with a ROA. Here is my plan

0001-0099 wing staff
0100-0199 group 1 staff
0200-0299 group 2 staff
0300-0399 group 3 staff
0400-0499 group 4 staff
0500-0599 group 5 staff
0600-0699 group 6 staff
0700-0799 group 7 staff
0800-0899 group 8 staff
0900-0999 group 9 staff (just in case)
1000-1099 group 10 staff (just in case)
1100-1199 group 11 staff
1200-7999 everyone else
8000-8099 group 800 staff
8100-9999 everyone else

[JoeTomasone]

I would not feel bad Stonewall.  I was issued a new radio by FLWG.  It is a nice EFJohnson 5317.

I has had this radio for 3 months and i'm still waiting on my Call Sign

Yours should be reasonably automatic: FC-506.   Assuming you filed a FLWGF 21, you should be able to request that callsign through the WG/DCL.

[mynetdude]

CNX OPORD for night time infil.  Al is okay, I got approved after explaining that the radio wasn't manufactured after 1/06 and copied the DCWG Commo God who helped out.

Standby for some whacky transmissions in FLWG...    :angel: 

UK...Did you get that bad boy reprogrammed yet?

I couldn't get anyone in FLWG to give me a freq plan so I only have 6 channels programmed.  In DCWG we had 32 channels programmed the same on all radios.  I emailed and talked to several comms people last year and no one seemed to know or want to give me the comm plan.

I don't know about my wing or yours or anyone elses... but I have heard that some wings will not issue comms plans and would want possession of your radio so THEY can program it FOR you.  I know that donated radios that are given to the squadron have to be sent up to WG (at least in ours) then sent back down... so I don't know if this applies to personally owned radios.

[CAPLAW]

Kirt, sorry to hear this, welcome to Florida Wing.  This kind of thing drives me crazy in this wing.  This is one of the many things why people drop out of CAP.

[SJFedor]

Yeah, in NATCAP wing, we had a 32 channel comm plan, but it covered repeaters throughout MD and VA that we used regularly as well as several mutual aid freqs.  Plans vary by location and size of geographical responsibility.  And I guess with MOU among other agencies.

We (in TN) are in the process of updating our aircraft radios, so that they'll have all the repeaters for SER in them. Our handhelds and mobiles are programmed with all the state stuff, and then all the primary/secondary repeater input freqs with the universal access tone.

[JoeTomasone]

Incidentally, I managed to shoot another rumor dead today.   I was told by a cadet that she was told that cadets in FLWG would not be issued callsigns even if they had licensable equipment.   Our WG/DC stated that this was absolutely not true; and further, a cadet over 18 who is a GTL or UDFTL is even issued the full set of Comm gear that a Senior Member would receive.

[PHall]

I don't know about my wing or yours or anyone elses... but I have heard that some wings will not issue comms plans and would want possession of your radio so THEY can program it FOR you.  I know that donated radios that are given to the squadron have to be sent up to WG (at least in ours) then sent back down... so I don't know if this applies to personally owned radios.

That's how they do it in CAWG. Considering that just about any radio that meets the narrow band and P25 requirements is programmed via a laptop it's not that bad of an idea. That software is not cheap!

[floridacyclist]

Incidentally, I managed to shoot another rumor dead today.   I was told by a cadet that she was told that cadets in FLWG would not be issued callsigns even if they had licensable equipment.   Our WG/DC stated that this was absolutely not true; and further, a cadet over 18 who is a GTL or UDFTL is even issued the full set of Comm gear that a Senior Member would receive.

Makes sense to me. I have 3 cadets in my household with callsigns.

[floridacyclist]

I don't know about my wing or yours or anyone elses... but I have heard that some wings will not issue comms plans and would want possession of your radio so THEY can program it FOR you.  I know that donated radios that are given to the squadron have to be sent up to WG (at least in ours) then sent back down... so I don't know if this applies to personally owned radios.

Of course, we have to close our eyes when we hooked it up to our computer to program our extra (ham) frequencies in.

[BigMojo]

Incidentally, I managed to shoot another rumor dead today.   I was told by a cadet that she was told that cadets in FLWG would not be issued callsigns even if they had licensable equipment.   Our WG/DC stated that this was absolutely not true; and further, a cadet over 18 who is a GTL or UDFTL is even issued the full set of Comm gear that a Senior Member would receive.

Absolutely...I had a cadet receive his call sign a week ago. I'm not sure how they assign numbers though...for example this cadet is one digit lower than I am... 

[SSgt Rudin]

Incidentally, I managed to shoot another rumor dead today.   I was told by a cadet that she was told that cadets in FLWG would not be issued callsigns even if they had licensable equipment.   Our WG/DC stated that this was absolutely not true; and further, a cadet over 18 who is a GTL or UDFTL is even issued the full set of Comm gear that a Senior Member would receive.

Absolutely...I had a cadet receive his call sign a week ago. I'm not sure how they assign numbers though...for example this cadet is one digit lower than I am... 

What ever is available at the time. People leave the program, their call sign expires, or they are "relieved" of their call sign because they way FLWG assigns them if you don't "need" one it gets reassigned.