NBB request for Handheld Radios

[RickFranz]

three things

1.  What happened to the radio Cache that was previously shipped to NBB from NHQ for this and other times when bulk hand helds were needed

2.  The ramp checking and recording of tail numbers goes to support a much larger SAR mission.  If the overdue aircraft is not at KOSH then where is is.  By eliminating one site we we can place resources where they are needed

3.  in 1999 I was awarded a commanders commendation for my flights response to the fiery wreck of a corsair and bearcat on the field.  We provided site security, and communications support for warbirds crash rescue and oshkosh fd.

The Cache of radios that we receive from National are in the UHF range.  Those can only talk to each other and not standard equipment in any of the vans we have working the flightline.  By having the flight TACs useing a radio that is on the same Freq as the standard vehicle radios just made sense. 

We have asked to have both the UHF radios (used for ES) and the standard handheld (used for flightline and a TAC channel) to be sent.  To ensure we have the equipment we have asked for TACs to bring a standard EF Johnson handheld.  This worked out very well last year and it allowed for direct communication for all the vans, flightline, ES and TACs. 

[Eclipse]

Bob by your interpretation a Ground Team Leader would have to have ACUT as according to the TOA they are assigned a radio.  ACUT is not a requirement to become a GTL.

I agree, but BCUT is, and there's lots and lots of GTL's who have never been issued radio equipment by CAP, nor purchased their own.
Some don't want the responsibility, and in some wings there isn't enough to go around.  The TOA is just the list of what can be issued based on a given use, it doesn't inform the requirements of the qualification.

A GTL does have to have an ACUT if they are issued a corporate radio(s) from CAP or they want to purchase their own.  BCUT is required regardless to allow a GTM or L to be a radio user of someone else's equipment (COR or POR).

If you have a radio issued to you as a temporary issue, I see no issue.  At NBB they will be under constant supervision so I contend that BCUT shouldn't even be required.

I agree on the temp issue, but not on the BCUT.  I interpret "supervision" as "I can see you and reach you".  Not "I'm pretty sure I know where you are." You should not have untrained users on the radio during an activity of that scale - if nothing else, run a BCUT at NBB after RST and require everyone who does not have a card complete it.

[lordmonar]

If the activity does not have the equipment to issue....then they have to ask for it somewhere.

I think asking your tacs to bring their own radios is a good way of solving the problem.

As far as the rules go.....the assets do not belong to any individual.
If your local mission can support giving up a radio for two weeks....it takes about 20 seconds in ORMS to issue it to the new member.

But then I guess the question is much simpler... does that member need ACUT since they will need to be assigned a radio?

I don't think there is any regulation requiring ACUT before assigning a radio.  I know that it is standard policy...but I don't know if it it actually written down anywhere.   Even it is written down....IN THIS CASE I can see it as a legitimate exception to policy.

YMMV.

[Eclipse]

I don't think there is any regulation requiring ACUT before assigning a radio.  I know that it is standard policy...but I don't know if it it actually written down anywhere.   Even it is written down....IN THIS CASE I can see it as a legitimate exception to policy.

Assigned?  No. Issued? Yes.

The difference is in who is ultimately responsible if the asset is lost or damaged.  I quoted above the relevant test from 100-1

[lordmonar]

Apples and oranges.

My Logistics guy "owns" all the radios in the squadron......i.e. has physical possession of them until he hands them out to member during an acitivity.....as far as I know he does not even have BCUT.

Accounting for property is one thing.....managinging the communications network (poorly) is another.

[Eclipse]

My Logistics guy "owns" all the radios in the squadron......i.e. has physical possession of them until he hands them out to member during an acitivity.....as far as I know he does not even have BCUT.

Communications equipment is not a Logistics function, it is a Comms function.  Your Logistics guys isn't supposed to have anything to do with radios unless he's also the Commo, and with the exception of a radio for the Unit CC, the unit shuld not have any equipment not issued under a TOA for a specific purpose that would require at least a BCUT (locally purchased equipment notwithstanding, which would still need licenses).

[lordmonar]

My Logistics guy "owns" all the radios in the squadron......i.e. has physical possession of them until he hands them out to member during an acitivity.....as far as I know he does not even have BCUT.

Communications equipment is not a Logistics function, it is a Comms function.  Your Logistics guys isn't supposed to have anything to do with radios unless he's also the Commo, and with the exception of a radio for the Unit CC, the unit shuld not have any equipment not issued under a TOA for a specific purpose that would require at least a BCUT (locally purchased equipment notwithstanding, which would still need licenses).

That may be how you orgainse your squadron....it is not how mine is organised.

[arajca]

If your LG is not also your DC or asst, they will not have the access in ORMS to issue comm gear.

[Eclipse]

That may be how you orgainse your squadron....it is not how mine is organised.

I would say 174-1 disagrees with you.

Comms is called out separately from logistics all the way down through the unit, and last I checked, ORMS
separates comm gear from other issued property, as well as granting different rights to Commos vs. LGs.

[Woodsy]

Why would a person from squadron A, 1,000 miles away from NBB ask his squadron CC to tote their 4K+ EF Johnson halfway across the country for 2 weeks? 

What does the squadron do while he is gone and they need that radio?

Radios are an operational asset for missions, and though NBB may have a "mission number" it is not an emergency mission. 

The radios from my area will remain in their chargers waiting for the call for a real mission. 

[Spaceman3750]

I can see from this thread that I like the way my wing does things better...

Step 1: Get your GTL qual.
Step 2: Fight, kvetch, and yell until someone frees up a portable and assigns it to you.
Step 3: Put it in my bag and take it to whatever activity it needs to go to.

Squadrons shouldn't be holding portable radios, at least in my area. GTLs should. There's very little use for them outside of ES, and when you do need them for a pre-planned activity outside of ES just call up the caretakers and ask (nicely) to borrow it.

[Woodsy]

I can see from this thread that I like the way my wing does things better...

Step 1: Get your GTL qual.
Step 2: Fight, kvetch, and yell until someone frees up a portable and assigns it to you.
Step 3: Put it in my bag and take it to whatever activity it needs to go to.

Squadrons shouldn't be holding portable radios, at least in my area. GTLs should. There's very little use for them outside of ES, and when you do need them for a pre-planned activity outside of ES just call up the caretakers and ask (nicely) to borrow it.

The problem with calling up the caretaker is that more often than not, that call comes in the middle of the night or some other PITA time.  Who can guarantee the person with the portable under his pillow will answer the call or is otherwise available to meet you to exchange? 

Just leave it at the Squadron HQ where whoever is responding can pick it up. 

[lordmonar]

Why would a person from squadron A, 1,000 miles away from NBB ask his squadron CC to tote their 4K+ EF Johnson halfway across the country for 2 weeks? 

What does the squadron do while he is gone and they need that radio?

Radios are an operational asset for missions, and though NBB may have a "mission number" it is not an emergency mission. 

The radios from my area will remain in their chargers waiting for the call for a real mission.

Like I said in my first post.....if your squadron can miss the radio for two weeks....then there should be no reason NOT to issue it to the TAC going to NBB.  If it needs it then don't authorise the radio.


To Spaceman.......the squadron hold the ES gear in a store room for when the GT does deploy.  We have multiple GTLs and GTMs and only so many radios.  So instead of giving it to member X to keep at home....we keep it in the ES supply locker with the rest of the TEAM gear.

Our team gear has the ELPER, ISRs for the whole team, two EF Johnsons, large first aid kit, 2 crates of MREs, F 4 gallons of water, Streacher, Canvas streacher, Miles and miles of flagging tape, complete set of road and topo maps for our AOR, all the ES forms you could eve want, P-cord, and a ton of other gear....all bagged up....the team rallies at the squadron, does a gear check, signs into the IMU, loads up the van and goes to where ever they are going to deploy too.

We have hand reiceipts already pre-filled out....just inventory, sign and go!

[Spaceman3750]

Why would a person from squadron A, 1,000 miles away from NBB ask his squadron CC to tote their 4K+ EF Johnson halfway across the country for 2 weeks? 

What does the squadron do while he is gone and they need that radio?

Radios are an operational asset for missions, and though NBB may have a "mission number" it is not an emergency mission. 

The radios from my area will remain in their chargers waiting for the call for a real mission.

Like I said in my first post.....if your squadron can miss the radio for two weeks....then there should be no reason NOT to issue it to the TAC going to NBB.  If it needs it then don't authorise the radio.


To Spaceman.......the squadron hold the ES gear in a store room for when the GT does deploy.  We have multiple GTLs and GTMs and only so many radios.  So instead of giving it to member X to keep at home....we keep it in the ES supply locker with the rest of the TEAM gear.

Our team gear has the ELPER, ISRs for the whole team, two EF Johnsons, large first aid kit, 2 crates of MREs, F 4 gallons of water, Streacher, Canvas streacher, Miles and miles of flagging tape, complete set of road and topo maps for our AOR, all the ES forms you could eve want, P-cord, and a ton of other gear....all bagged up....the team rallies at the squadron, does a gear check, signs into the IMU, loads up the van and goes to where ever they are going to deploy too.

We have hand reiceipts already pre-filled out....just inventory, sign and go!

OK, that gives more context to the situation, thanks. My area is a little bit more individualized, and I'm just the type that likes having my own set of stuff (CAP radio not withstanding, I bought a personal one back before I got issued one), especially since I live 70 miles from squadron HQ and may be responding with my team plus others from around my rather large group. I can't quite describe my feelings towards this very well, but it makes sense in my AOR.

[Woodsy]

Why would a person from squadron A, 1,000 miles away from NBB ask his squadron CC to tote their 4K+ EF Johnson halfway across the country for 2 weeks? 

What does the squadron do while he is gone and they need that radio?

Radios are an operational asset for missions, and though NBB may have a "mission number" it is not an emergency mission. 

The radios from my area will remain in their chargers waiting for the call for a real mission.

Like I said in my first post.....if your squadron can miss the radio for two weeks....then there should be no reason NOT to issue it to the TAC going to NBB.  If it needs it then don't authorise the radio.


To Spaceman.......the squadron hold the ES gear in a store room for when the GT does deploy.  We have multiple GTLs and GTMs and only so many radios.  So instead of giving it to member X to keep at home....we keep it in the ES supply locker with the rest of the TEAM gear.

Our team gear has the ELPER, ISRs for the whole team, two EF Johnsons, large first aid kit, 2 crates of MREs, F 4 gallons of water, Streacher, Canvas streacher, Miles and miles of flagging tape, complete set of road and topo maps for our AOR, all the ES forms you could eve want, P-cord, and a ton of other gear....all bagged up....the team rallies at the squadron, does a gear check, signs into the IMU, loads up the van and goes to where ever they are going to deploy too.

We have hand reiceipts already pre-filled out....just inventory, sign and go!

We are on the same page with the same situation...  Many qualified responders, and limited equipment.  Except we only have one EFJ.  I agree that if the squadron doesn't need it, then by all means take it.  However, that leave me the question, if they don't need it and won't miss it for 2 weeks, why do they have it in the first place? 

[lordmonar]

We are on the same page with the same situation...  Many qualified responders, and limited equipment.  Except we only have one EFJ.  I agree that if the squadron doesn't need it, then by all means take it.  However, that leave me the question, if they don't need it and won't miss it for 2 weeks, why do they have it in the first place?

Well....let's say you are a luck squadron that has more then one radio.  We have an IC who is issued a hand held radio by Wing.  We have two hand held radios for GT/Comm.....so we are a littel fat in the radio area.  Assuming that we don't have a SAREX or other operation going on those two weeks....they are just going to sit there in the charger just in case.  So we could afford to lose one for two weeks.

Like I said....it is a judgement call by the squadron commander based on the number of assets available and the OPTEMPO of the unit and any known operations comming up.

[NCRblues]

Why would a person from squadron A, 1,000 miles away from NBB ask his squadron CC to tote their 4K+ EF Johnson halfway across the country for 2 weeks? 

and though NBB may have a "mission number" it is not an emergency mission. 

Wrong, please come to NBB before bashing it. NBB in conjunction with WI wing conducts more emergency searches for downed aircraft, hurt or missing persons than the rest of the CAP wings in those 2 weeks. The AF pre-assigns a mission number to WI wing that has the IC and NBB falls under that IC and mission number. The AF pre-assigns the number because they know that about 40,000 plus aircraft is going to produce some accidents, missing and overdue aircraft ext...

Just because WI wing and NBB pre plan for a major aerospace event does not mean that a crashed aircraft search (happens at least 4 or 5 times every year) is any less of an emergency.

[Spaceman3750]

It's called NBB "precautionary SAR" for a reason. Frankly, I'm surprised at the amount of ill will towards national ES activities such as NESA and NBB - you gotta train with the equipment we use in order to know how to use it... Does your wing never get training mission numbers?

[Woodsy]

It's called NBB "precautionary SAR" for a reason. Frankly, I'm surprised at the amount of ill will towards national ES activities such as NESA and NBB - you gotta train with the equipment we use in order to know how to use it... Does your wing never get training mission numbers?

Wow, ya'll took that the wrong way.  No ill will towards any of them, and I was not in any way bashing NBB.  I just believe that it's silly and hurts operations elsewhere to bring in radios from all over the country.  As has been previously stated, if a member is going and his unit has an extra, then sure, take it along. 

[NCRblues]

It's called NBB "precautionary SAR" for a reason. Frankly, I'm surprised at the amount of ill will towards national ES activities such as NESA and NBB - you gotta train with the equipment we use in order to know how to use it... Does your wing never get training mission numbers?

Wow, ya'll took that the wrong way.  No ill will towards any of them, and I was not in any way bashing NBB.  I just believe that it's silly and hurts operations elsewhere to bring in radios from all over the country.  As has been previously stated, if a member is going and his unit has an extra, then sure, take it along.

12 EF Johnsons is all NBB is asking for the TACs to bring, one apiece. Step outside the squadron if you have to and put in a request from group/wing if your that worried about all those missions your going to do in 2 weeks. 12 flights, 12 radios, 12 TACs. NBB provides the base station and everything else. Communication is vital to proper handling of the mission and safety.