Where's the Fire?

[Turk]

I was recently flying an FBO Cessna when I saw a plume of smoke rising. Now most of the time, this turns out to be factory smoke, chimney smoke, or a controlled burn. Not this time - it was from the trees.

I radioed the tower (the fire was inside their delta airspace). With my Garmin aviation GPS, I could easily give them a lat-long and a bearing/distance from the airport. After lots of back-and-forth discussions, they finally kindasorta figured out where the fire was, and called for a local fire response.

My takeaway from all this is that tower and approach controllers really aren't equipped to figure out which municipality corresponds to a set of coordinates. And alas, in the world of fire response, it is the municipality (or county) that really matters. Wouldn't it be great if an air crew member could look at his smartphone or ipad and report that the fire was  "east of the Route 23 and Billingsgate Road intersection in Sleepington." That would certainly beat shuffling though a big atlas of DeLorme topo charts, assuming that they were aboard in the first place.

Some smartphone and ipad GPS interfaces are internal; some are after-market products like Bad Elf. There are many software products to go with it.  There's no need for turn-by-turn directions or anything like that... just the ability to figure out where "down there" is in terms of which locality and near what road(s).

Much as I'm tempted to reinvent the wheel, I'll bet someone out in this forum has reinvented a better one. Ideas? Solutions?

 

[davidsinn]

I was recently flying an FBO Cessna when I saw a plume of smoke rising. Now most of the time, this turns out to be factory smoke, chimney smoke, or a controlled burn. Not this time - it was from the trees.

I radioed the tower (the fire was inside their delta airspace). With my Garmin aviation GPS, I could easily give them a lat-long and a bearing/distance from the airport. After lots of back-and-forth discussions, they finally kindasorta figured out where the fire was, and called for a local fire response.

My takeaway from all this is that tower and approach controllers really aren't equipped to figure out which municipality corresponds to a set of coordinates. And alas, in the world of fire response, it is the municipality (or county) that really matters. Wouldn't it be great if an air crew member could look at his smartphone or ipad and report that the fire was  "east of the Route 23 and Billingsgate Road intersection in Sleepington." That would certainly beat shuffling though a big atlas of DeLorme topo charts, assuming that they were aboard in the first place.

Some smartphone and ipad GPS interfaces are internal; some are after-market products like Bad Elf. There are many software products to go with it.  There's no need for turn-by-turn directions or anything like that... just the ability to figure out where "down there" is in terms of which locality and near what road(s).

Much as I'm tempted to reinvent the wheel, I'll bet someone out in this forum has reinvented a better one. Ideas? Solutions?

Just give the controller the coordinates and they can google it.

Back country navigator pro allows you to install new maps and I have USGS topos on mine as well as Cell grided sectionals.

[N Harmon]

Get a cheap, old, automobile sat nav, and give it to the mission scanner. He/she will know exactly what roads are down there.

[EMT-83]

Figuring out that fire location shouldn't be any different than locating your ground team.

I always carry my Delorme Gazetter when flying – lat/long, topo and streets all in one.

[AirDX]

Just give the controller the coordinates and they can google it.

Ah, no.  Controllers don't have time, and more than likely don't have a computer handy to be googling stuff.

As a controller, if someone reported a fire in the Class D to me, I'd just call 911 and give the location as best I could to the dispatcher.  As a radar controller, we'd call whatever the nearest town was and report it there.  That's about as far as it goes.

[Spaceman3750]

Just give the controller the coordinates and they can google it.

Ah, no.  Controllers don't have time, and more than likely don't have a computer handy to be googling stuff.

As a controller, if someone reported a fire in the Class D to me, I'd just call 911 and give the location as best I could to the dispatcher.  As a radar controller, we'd call whatever the nearest town was and report it there.  That's about as far as it goes.

Fine, the controller can give the coordinates to 911. Any self-respecting 911 dispatch center will have the ability to translate coordinates into a response.

[EMT-83]

Ever been in a 911 center?

[Al Sayre]

I've used Google Maps on my Ipad in the cockpit to coordinate with Fire/Rescue on the ground.  Works just fine.

[Flying Pig]

Ever been in a 911 center?

HAA...Thats what I was thinking.  Sounds like a Jerry Lewis telathon!

[Turk]

I've used Google Maps on my Ipad in the cockpit to coordinate with Fire/Rescue on the ground.  Works just fine.

Aha, here's someone who's done this in action! Okay; just so I'm clear, you're manually (and I'm not saying "manually" like it's a bad thing) entering the GPS coordinates of the waypoint into the Ipad? Or does your Ipad have some kind of GPS connection of its own? 

[JetDriver777]

Really?   so now  air traffic controllers are fire dispatchers?  THEY DONT CARE!

[JetDriver777]

Just give the controller the coordinates and they can google it.

Ah, no.  Controllers don't have time, and more than likely don't have a computer handy to be googling stuff.

As a controller, if someone reported a fire in the Class D to me, I'd just call 911 and give the location as best I could to the dispatcher.  As a radar controller, we'd call whatever the nearest town was and report it there.  That's about as far as it goes.

Fine, the controller can give the coordinates to 911. Any self-respecting 911 dispatch center will have the ability to translate coordinates into a response.

Dispatchers have a hard time talking on the phone.... they have no clue about GPS coordinates!  most dispatch centers dont have 'internet' access to google anything!

[Spaceman3750]

Just give the controller the coordinates and they can google it.

Ah, no.  Controllers don't have time, and more than likely don't have a computer handy to be googling stuff.

As a controller, if someone reported a fire in the Class D to me, I'd just call 911 and give the location as best I could to the dispatcher.  As a radar controller, we'd call whatever the nearest town was and report it there.  That's about as far as it goes.

Fine, the controller can give the coordinates to 911. Any self-respecting 911 dispatch center will have the ability to translate coordinates into a response.

Dispatchers have a hard time talking on the phone.... they have no clue about GPS coordinates!  most dispatch centers dont have 'internet' access to google anything!

Didn't say they had to Google it... IIRC ours has a mapping program and I'd be pretty shocked if they didn't have that capability.

[Al Sayre]

I've used Google Maps on my Ipad in the cockpit to coordinate with Fire/Rescue on the ground.  Works just fine.

Aha, here's someone who's done this in action! Okay; just so I'm clear, you're manually (and I'm not saying "manually" like it's a bad thing) entering the GPS coordinates of the waypoint into the Ipad? Or does your Ipad have some kind of GPS connection of its own?

I have an Ipad2 that has it's own built in GPS.  Were were flying a SAR mission and needed to overfly the Fire Dept. crew so they could direct us where they wanted us to look.  They couldn't give us GPS coordinates, but were at the intersection of two county roads.  I pulled up google maps, centered on the blue dot that was us,  located the intersection they were talking about (about 2 miles from where we were at the time, and flew straight to them...  Piece of cake.

[Turk]

I've used Google Maps on my Ipad in the cockpit to coordinate with Fire/Rescue on the ground.  Works just fine.

Aha, here's someone who's done this in action! Okay; just so I'm clear, you're manually (and I'm not saying "manually" like it's a bad thing) entering the GPS coordinates of the waypoint into the Ipad? Or does your Ipad have some kind of GPS connection of its own?

I have an Ipad2 that has it's own built in GPS.  Were were flying a SAR mission and needed to overfly the Fire Dept. crew so they could direct us where they wanted us to look.  They couldn't give us GPS coordinates, but were at the intersection of two county roads.  I pulled up google maps, centered on the blue dot that was us,  located the intersection they were talking about (about 2 miles from where we were at the time, and flew straight to them...  Piece of cake.

Very resourceful! And if I'm not mistaken, Google Maps is pre-installed on IPads, so you're not even going online (and therefore, not utilizing cellphone towers).

[Spaceman3750]

I've used Google Maps on my Ipad in the cockpit to coordinate with Fire/Rescue on the ground.  Works just fine.

Aha, here's someone who's done this in action! Okay; just so I'm clear, you're manually (and I'm not saying "manually" like it's a bad thing) entering the GPS coordinates of the waypoint into the Ipad? Or does your Ipad have some kind of GPS connection of its own?

I have an Ipad2 that has it's own built in GPS.  Were were flying a SAR mission and needed to overfly the Fire Dept. crew so they could direct us where they wanted us to look.  They couldn't give us GPS coordinates, but were at the intersection of two county roads.  I pulled up google maps, centered on the blue dot that was us,  located the intersection they were talking about (about 2 miles from where we were at the time, and flew straight to them...  Piece of cake.

Very resourceful! And if I'm not mistaken, Google Maps is pre-installed on IPads, so you're not even going online (and therefore, not utilizing cellphone towers).

It is, but Apple products utilize Assisted GPS and it downloads maps on-the-fly.

[wuzafuzz]

When I was an airport operations guy, the tower had time (we weren't the busiest airports  ).  In fact they sometimes called us with smoke reports in the nearby mountains.  (We had the county fire channel in our radios.)  We passed to county fire over the air unless we knew they were already aware.  Way faster than by phone.  In fact ATC sometimes asked for feedback about their report.  That didn't happen often, but ATC folks are curious too. 

Added note to clarify the airports weren't the busiest ones out there.  I imagine busier airports might handle differently.

[Pump Scout]

Get a cheap, old, automobile sat nav, and give it to the mission scanner. He/she will know exactly what roads are down there.

I've done exactly that on several missions. My little Garmin will even give me the nearest intersection or address if I need it to, as well as lat/long. The problem is an old fashioned one on a modern platform - in order to be accurate, we'd need to fly directly over the site/target, THEN blip a reading. Otherwise we're having to give our location as determined by the GPS, then a heading and distance to the site/target.

[gordo07]

As a forest firefighter for a day job, its helpful to give a lat/long, most fire depts and engines have a GPS in them that can navigate to givin coordinates. otherwise a discriptive of the area, if its mountainous or near a prominant marker the responders will proobably know the location.

[SAR-EMT1]

Just give the controller the coordinates and they can google it.

Ah, no.  Controllers don't have time, and more than likely don't have a computer handy to be googling stuff.

As a controller, if someone reported a fire in the Class D to me, I'd just call 911 and give the location as best I could to the dispatcher.  As a radar controller, we'd call whatever the nearest town was and report it there.  That's about as far as it goes.

Fine, the controller can give the coordinates to 911. Any self-respecting 911 dispatch center will have the ability to translate coordinates into a response.

HAHAHAHA... oh that's rich !

The dispatchers in my area are high school dropouts.... They can barely tell time.
As for the computer equipment, not possible.

[SARDOC]

Dispatchers have a hard time talking on the phone.... they have no clue about GPS coordinates!  most dispatch centers dont have 'internet' access to google anything!

This may be true where you live.  But Where I live, they are trained on GPS coordinates because when someone calls 911, before they even answer the phone, your Phone Number and GPS Coordinates(if your Phone is GPS capable) and your registered home of business address appear on the screen.  If your Phone is not GPS capable they get the Street Address of the Cell phone tower that your phone is using to make the call...(It Narrows down your location geographically)  Not only do they have access to google but they have access to numerous internet web based resources...it's the primary method our local EOC and EDC transmit information and requests to the State EOC among many other capabilities.  If they don't have this in your jurisdiction I feel really bad for them after all it's the 21st Century.

[Spaceman3750]

Dispatchers have a hard time talking on the phone.... they have no clue about GPS coordinates!  most dispatch centers dont have 'internet' access to google anything!

This may be true where you live.  But Where I live, they are trained on GPS coordinates because when someone calls 911, before they even answer the phone, your Phone Number and GPS Coordinates(if your Phone is GPS capable) and your registered home of business address appear on the screen.  If your Phone is not GPS capable they get the Street Address of the Cell phone tower that your phone is using to make the call...(It Narrows down your location geographically)  Not only do they have access to google but they have access to numerous internet web based resources...it's the primary method our local EOC and EDC transmit information and requests to the State EOC among many other capabilities.  If they don't have this in your jurisdiction I feel really bad for them after all it's the 21st Century.

Same here. County dispatch has cell providers "ping" phones all the time and gets coordinates back.

[EMT-83]

Our dispatch center computers are specifically prohibited from having Internet access, due to their connection to NCIC and other systems. If I don't bring my personal laptop with aircard to work, I've got nothing.

As to cell phone locations being accurate - maybe 50%, probably slightly less.

[SARDOC]

Our Jurisdiction all the dispatchers have access to internet and a lot of the systems they are using are web based.  NCIC computers are an issue.  The Dispatch Supervisor has two computers one specifically for NCIC, and ironically the dispatcher that operates the Animal Control division channel also has two (one for the NCIC).  If an Officer, Deputy, Fire Marshal, want to run an NCIC check they either do it from their Mobile Data Terminal or they have to switch from their respective frequencies to the Animal Control Channel or over the phone.  We have the advantage of being a relatively large busy district...we usually have anywhere from 12-16 dispatchers 5-6 call takers and at least 2 supervisors on per shift.

[SAR-EMT1]

Must be nice... Around here a dispatch center has 1 call taker, 1 dispatcher, and one bored deputy who functions as the " Quick Reaction Force" should any of the officers in the area need backup. Although, a code 3 response would still take 10-20 minutes to get to the edge of most counties.

On a weekend or holiday you may see that number doubled.

[JayT]

Must be nice... Around here a dispatch center has 1 call taker, 1 dispatcher, and one bored deputy who functions as the " Quick Reaction Force" should any of the officers in the area need backup. Although, a code 3 response would still take 10-20 minutes to get to the edge of most counties.

On a weekend or holiday you may see that number doubled.

So how are things out in the back country?

[SARDOC]

Must be nice... Around here a dispatch center has 1 call taker, 1 dispatcher, and one bored deputy who functions as the " Quick Reaction Force" should any of the officers in the area need backup. Although, a code 3 response would still take 10-20 minutes to get to the edge of most counties.

On a weekend or holiday you may see that number doubled.

My city is a large tourist city so our population explodes in the summer...Peak summer time we have over a million people, including the almost 440,000 permanent residents.  The City Emergency Services have to cover almost 500 Square Miles, Not including the Navigable waterways within city limits.

We recently had a Local Jurisdiction in a rural part of our state which sounds a lot like what you guys have.  They experienced a natural disaster and the 911 center with one dispatcher (that's it) received over 140 calls in the first 10 minutes...I'm surprised she didn't just stop answering the phone.  I think those jobs can be so much harder than even the worst day in our EDC (emergency dispatch center)

[cap235629]

around here in the smaller jurisdictions the dispatcher is also the booking officer and jailer..... I worked at just such an agency and there were 2 people on duty, 1 male the other female.  The male side of the jail held 40 prisoners and that dispatcher was the only jailer for the entire population and seldom was there any empty bunk in the jail.  When the 911 system would light up things got interesting because invariably that's when all h$%& would break loose in the cell block....

[Spaceman3750]

My county has a dispatch/call center for the entire county, including three private ambulance companies. Only four agencies don't use county dispatch (lower than the county level). From what I hear, they're well staffed, well equipped, and good at what they do.

My county is also home to the state capital so that might also have something to do with it.

[SAR-EMT1]

Must be nice... Around here a dispatch center has 1 call taker, 1 dispatcher, and one bored deputy who functions as the " Quick Reaction Force" should any of the officers in the area need backup. Although, a code 3 response would still take 10-20 minutes to get to the edge of most counties.

On a weekend or holiday you may see that number doubled.

So how are things out in the back country?

This is for a county of well over 150,000

[Buzz]

ironically the dispatcher that operates the Animal Control division channel also has two (one for the NCIC).

Tac support for McGruff, the Crime Dog . . ?