GTM3 and other Qualifications

[airdale12]

I'm am so tired of CAP reg regarding to how u get your training.

I had all my papers done for GTM3 (only after two active years of working for it because of mission numbers) so i submit my paperwork and it gets approved all the way to wing. They didn't approve it because the first mission number was during my preparatory training. Now i have to wait for another mission number and waste my time.

I'm over qualified to perform the tasks for GTM3 but then im not allowed to get it because of something like this.

I'm sure this has occurred to many or just other simple unimportant mistakes and had delay the qualifications of many members.

Something has to be changed about how these ratings are obtained, and I think its our responsibility to let them know that the reason why many aren't certified is because of the many unimportant details they want.

[lordmonar]

So...you are upset because you failed to follow regulations in the first place?

In two years time you have had only two opportunities to particapte in a SAREX or real SAR mission?

You are in Florida?   

Sounds like that you actually have a wing ESO who is actually doing his job right.

Doing the training correctly is not waisting your time.

[cap235629]

Sounds like someone is inventing regulations again.  As far as having to wait 2 years to get mission numbers, they do not have to be live missions or statewide SAREX's.  Your unit can request an unfunded mission number at any time to conduct the sorties you need.

[airdale12]

Sounds like someone is inventing regulations again.  As far as having to wait 2 years to get mission numbers, they do not have to be live missions or statewide SAREX's.  Your unit can request an unfunded mission number at any time to conduct the sorties you need.

It has been a pain to get an IC and MSO for a funded mission because the IC in our group had problems with one of our members and he doesnt help us.

[airdale12]

So...you are upset because you failed to follow regulations in the first place?

In two years time you have had only two opportunities to particapte in a SAREX or real SAR mission?

You are in Florida?   

Sounds like that you actually have a wing ESO who is actually doing his job right.

Doing the training correctly is not waisting your time.

Listen im not talking about the training, im talking about things like wat happened to me. You have to admit that that is stupid.

[lordmonar]

If you are having trouble getting mission numbers for some reason....call the wing DO/ESO.

Should be a no brainer...if all you need is a mission number.

If your group has trouble getting IC's....again your wing DO/ESO is the place to go.

I don't know what "happened to you"  and I don't agree that it was "stupid".

It seems that you submittted training paper work for approval that was not done correctly and wing caught you.   i.e. they are doing their job.  If you need another sortie......I would expect that there will be a mission or training mission somewhere in your wing withing the next two months....if you just ask your wing DO/ESO......

Okay....that is three times I have pointed you in the right directions for your problem.

Have fun.

[cap235629]

Sounds like someone is inventing regulations again.  As far as having to wait 2 years to get mission numbers, they do not have to be live missions or statewide SAREX's.  Your unit can request an unfunded mission number at any time to conduct the sorties you need.

It has been a pain to get an IC and MSO for a funded mission because the IC in our group had problems with one of our members and he doesnt help us.

??

[airdale12]

If you are having trouble getting mission numbers for some reason....call the wing DO/ESO.

Should be a no brainer...if all you need is a mission number.

If your group has trouble getting IC's....again your wing DO/ESO is the place to go.

I don't know what "happened to you"  and I don't agree that it was "stupid".

It seems that you submittted training paper work for approval that was not done correctly and wing caught you.   i.e. they are doing their job.  If you need another sortie......I would expect that there will be a mission or training mission somewhere in your wing withing the next two months....if you just ask your wing DO/ESO......

Okay....that is three times I have pointed you in the right directions for your problem.

Have fun.

This is what happened, they didn't approve it because my first sortie was during the period I was doing my prep training. On the same day I finished all my Prep training and began working on my advance. So what wing is saying is that one of my sortie isnt valid because it was during the same day i finished my prep training, so even thought I went throw the training and done many times after just not with a mission number they wont approve it until i go to another sortie.

[airdale12]

Sounds like someone is inventing regulations again.  As far as having to wait 2 years to get mission numbers, they do not have to be live missions or statewide SAREX's.  Your unit can request an unfunded mission number at any time to conduct the sorties you need.

It has been a pain to get an IC and MSO for a funded mission because the IC in our group had problems with one of our members and he doesnt help us.

??

yes its just this BS that goes back a couple of years that affects both our cadet and the other squadrons cadets :/

[lordmonar]

Airdale12.....I understand what you are saying.....here is the what the regulations say.

YOU CANNOT SIGN INTO A MISSION AS A TRAINEE until AFTER your prep training is completed and SIGNED OFF BY YOUR COMMANDER.

End of message.

Wing is holding you to the regulations.

You need another sortie.

It need not be a funded sortie.
It need not be a real sortie.

If you are truely having trouble getting training sorties.........your WING DO/ESO is the place for your complaint..........not CAPTALK.


HINT, HINT, HINT........

[Eclipse]

This is what happened, they didn't approve it because my first sortie was during the period I was doing my prep training. On the same day I finished all my Prep training and began working on my advance. So what wing is saying is that one of my sortie isnt valid because it was during the same day i finished my prep training, so even thought I went throw the training and done many times after just not with a mission number they wont approve it until i go to another sortie.

And that is correct. 

You are not allowed to get mission credit until your FAM / Prep is complete, meaning that you understand the duties of the job.
Until you're FAM/Prepped, you can't even be there as the "thing" you want credit for.  Tasking, yes, but no mission credit.

This has been SOP for a long time.

[airdale12]

I had completed it that same day. Well lets move to another topic. Why are these sign offs by your squadron commander necessary??  I understand the first one but the rest?? If im at a national activity I cant do much unless my squadron cdr signs off on them???

[lordmonar]

I had completed it that same day. Well lets move to another topic. Why are these sign offs by your squadron commander necessary??  I understand the first one but the rest?? If im at a national activity I cant do much unless my squadron cdr signs off on them???

It is the way things are.  You want to get a specialty you first ask your commander...he approves.  You finish your Fam and Prep training he again approves....this green lights you to actually participate in missions...


That is why he has to sign off BEFORE you can be tasked to go out on a mission.

It is that simple.

[airdale12]

I had completed it that same day. Well lets move to another topic. Why are these sign offs by your squadron commander necessary??  I understand the first one but the rest?? If im at a national activity I cant do much unless my squadron cdr signs off on them???

It is the way things are.  You want to get a specialty you first ask your commander...he approves.  You finish your Fam and Prep training he again approves....this green lights you to actually participate in missions...


That is why he has to sign off BEFORE you can be tasked to go out on a mission.

It is that simple.

But wat about if im at a national activity? I just wasted all the time, money and effort just to get my FAM/Prep done???

[arajca]

National ES activites such as NESA have the authority to sign off SQTRs inplace of the unit commander.

[lordmonar]

What national activity?

NESA?  Hawk Mountain?  NBB?

Those approvals should have be made before you left for the acitivity.....and your command should be aware of the them before he signed off on your CAPF 31.

[a2capt]

I wondered about the comment in the other thread about the flair pistol.. now I see why. I hope that 000 is not real, otherwise that explains a lot, too.

[airdale12]

I wondered about the comment in the other thread about the flair pistol.. now I see why. I hope that 000 is not real, otherwise that explains a lot, too.

no im not part of SER-FL-000 i just don't put my squadron. And yes im current with all the Safety BS and I have Adv ORM. I was referring to minor regs with that comment.

[Eclipse]

I had completed it that same day. Well lets move to another topic. Why are these sign offs by your squadron commander necessary??  I understand the first one but the rest?? If im at a national activity I cant do much unless my squadron cdr signs off on them???

Because your squadron Commander is ultimately responsible for you in a CAP context, and is the person within the chain who is most likely
to know you on a personal level and be able to judge whether you are ready for the responsibilities of the qualification you are requesting.

He may also be the only one who knows that you have an open disciplinary issue, or in the case of cadets, are not progressing properly and
therefore should not be involved in extracurricular activities until the core responsibilities as a cadet are handled.

Not everything is objective criteria.  You might be a perfectly adequate GT3, but not mature or experienced enough to lead a team and therefore dangerous.  In that case he may well deny or delay your GTL, (etc.).

But wat about if im at a national activity? I just wasted all the time, money and effort just to get my FAM/Prep done???

National ES activites such as NESA have the authority to sign off SQTRs inplace of the unit commander.

They do, but this has been a fair point of contention in my wing and others, if for no other reason then the NESA staff or others are not
in the member's chain.  Also, and this may have changed, but traditionally, earning a GT badge at NESA is not the same as being mission
qualified.  It was not unusual in years past, especially for cadets, for them to go to NESA, never get a radio card or first aid done, and
never actually finish the mission qualification even though they were qualified to wear the badge.

I also knew of a few who had qualification approvals removed because they unit CC did not feel they were ready to be approved.

All this is well within the regs and in fact a responsibility of a unit CC.

[Eclipse]

I was referring to minor regs with that comment.

Please define "minor reg", or does the term "Safety BS" say enough?

[airdale12]

I had completed it that same day. Well lets move to another topic. Why are these sign offs by your squadron commander necessary??  I understand the first one but the rest?? If im at a national activity I cant do much unless my squadron cdr signs off on them???

Because your squadron Commander is ultimately responsible for you in a CAP context, and is the person within the chain who is most likely
to know you on a personal level and be able to judge whether you are ready for the responsibilities of the qualification you are requesting.

He may also be the only one who knows that you have an open disciplinary issue, or in the case of cadets, are not progressing properly and
therefore should not be involved in extracurricular activities until the core responsibilities as a cadet are handled.

Not everything is objective criteria.  You might be a perfectly adequate GT3, but not mature or experienced enough to lead a team and therefore dangerous.  In that case he may well deny or delay your GTL, (etc.).

But wat about if im at a national activity? I just wasted all the time, money and effort just to get my FAM/Prep done???

National ES activites such as NESA have the authority to sign off SQTRs inplace of the unit commander.

They do, but this has been a fair point of contention in my wing and others, if for no other reason then the NESA staff or others are not
in the member's chain.  Also, and this may have changed, but traditionally, earning a GT badge at NESA is not the same as being mission
qualified.  It was not unusual in years past, especially for cadets, for them to go to NESA, never get a radio card or first aid done, and
never actually finish the mission qualification even though they were qualified to wear the badge.

I also knew of a few who had qualification approvals removed because they unit CC did not feel they were ready to be approved.

All this is well within the regs and in fact a responsibility of a unit CC.

But if the CC doesn't think that person is ready then he should even allow them to start the FAM/Prep.

[lordmonar]

He may allow the individual to start the fam training......but not feel the individual is ready to actually move to the field.

So the second signature after FAM training is to ensure the individual is infact ready to take on duties as a trainee in the field.

Same story with you NSCA.  One would assume that if you were given the green light to go to NESA, NBB or Hawk Mountain then they are ready to green light any training you would receive at these activities.

[Eclipse]

But if the CC doesn't think that person is ready then he should even allow them to start the FAM/Prep.

Things change, people get in trouble, people don't live up to expectations, people don't understand the responsibilities, people ignore
the requirements and try to do whatever they want to do.

That's the point of FAM/Prep, to familiarize and prepare the person for what could be a job that protects life and property.  It also
gives those charged with the responsibility the chance to evaluate the person for the role.

[airdale12]

I was referring to minor regs with that comment.

Please define "minor reg", or does the term "Safety BS" say enough?

yes it does

[Eclipse]

It tells us a lot as well...

[airdale12]

He may allow the individual to start the fam training......but not feel the individual is ready to actually move to the field.

So the second signature after FAM training is to ensure the individual is infact ready to take on duties as a trainee in the field.

Same story with you NSCA.  One would assume that if you were given the green light to go to NESA, NBB or Hawk Mountain then they are ready to green light any training you would receive at these activities.

But does it work like this, if i go to hawk and work on my gtm3 FAM/Prep pass it can i start on my advanced? or does my CC have to endorse me?

[a2capt]

Yup.. as I noted in the other thread. Ah well.. can't please everyone, not even with a free doughnut.

If you're so tired of it, maybe it's time to move on, find another organization that might see things your way.

[airdale12]

It tells us a lot as well...

You honestly think that having a safety meeting once a month is really going to keep me safe? or by completing intro to cap safety two years after joining and completing Adv ORM is going to help???

[airdale12]

Yup.. as I noted in the other thread. Ah well.. can't please everyone, not even with a free doughnut.

If you're so tired of it, maybe it's time to move on, find another organization that might see things your way.

You know if I could go to on organization that had the same mission with out the bs yes i would definitely move.

[Spaceman3750]

Yup.. as I noted in the other thread. Ah well.. can't please everyone, not even with a free doughnut.

If you're so tired of it, maybe it's time to move on, find another organization that might see things your way.

You know if I could go to on organization that had the same mission with out the bs yes i would definitely move.

BS? Training the way the program was designed? Look, either follow the rules or find a different sandbox to play in. I can certainly understand why you are frustrated but you're likely to get much farther by just completing the extra mission and moving on. The extra practice can't hurt.

Get your ESO to put something together. I have found the ICs in my wing are very easy to work with and are always willing to help.

[Eclipse]

It tells us a lot as well...

You honestly think that having a safety meeting once a month is really going to keep me safe? or by completing intro to cap safety two years after joining and completing Adv ORM is going to help???

No.  Keeping you safe is your job.

Safety briefings and related training are there only to remind you of the dangers and provide you techniques to keep yourself, and those around you who might be effected by your mistakes, safe.

They are part and parcel of any similar organization, and ever more a part of professional PD, FD, SAR agencies and the military.
Checklists, ORM, procedures, and other "BS", make sure mistakes are kept to a minimum, and raise the level of attention
of everyone involved.

The only thing more dangerous than someone who knows nothing is someone who believes they know everything or know "better".

[airdale12]

It tells us a lot as well...

You honestly think that having a safety meeting once a month is really going to keep me safe? or by completing intro to cap safety two years after joining and completing Adv ORM is going to help???

No.  Keeping you safe is your job.

Safety briefings and related training are there only to remind you of the dangers and provide you techniques to keep yourself, and those around you who might be effected by your mistakes, safe.

They are part and parcel of any similar organization, and ever more a part of professional PD, FD, SAR agencies and the military.
Checklists, ORM, procedures, and other "BS", make sure mistakes are kept to a minimum, and raise the level of attention
of everyone involved.

The only thing more dangerous than someone who knows nothing is someone who believes they know everything or know "better".

If I learn something from the CAP Safety was from the online geo tagging course but that's about it.
If you use common sense you will be pretty safe.

[airdale12]

Yup.. as I noted in the other thread. Ah well.. can't please everyone, not even with a free doughnut.

If you're so tired of it, maybe it's time to move on, find another organization that might see things your way.

You know if I could go to on organization that had the same mission with out the bs yes i would definitely move.

BS? Training the way the program was designed? Look, either follow the rules or find a different sandbox to play in. I can certainly understand why you are frustrated but you're likely to get much farther by just completing the extra mission and moving on. The extra practice can't hurt.

Get your ESO to put something together. I have found the ICs in my wing are very easy to work with and are always willing to help.

I recently found an IC and im working on a mission number, wat im ticked of is that im going to hawk in 7 days, i wanted to got as a GTM3 to start working on my GTM2 or GTL but now if i go i wont get far because i need my squadron commanders approval :/

[Spaceman3750]

Yup.. as I noted in the other thread. Ah well.. can't please everyone, not even with a free doughnut.

If you're so tired of it, maybe it's time to move on, find another organization that might see things your way.

You know if I could go to on organization that had the same mission with out the bs yes i would definitely move.

BS? Training the way the program was designed? Look, either follow the rules or find a different sandbox to play in. I can certainly understand why you are frustrated but you're likely to get much farther by just completing the extra mission and moving on. The extra practice can't hurt.

Get your ESO to put something together. I have found the ICs in my wing are very easy to work with and are always willing to help.

I recently found an IC and im working on a mission number, wat im ticked of is that im going to hawk in 7 days, i wanted to got as a GTM3 to start working on my GTM2 or GTL but now if i go i wont get far because i need my squadron commanders approval :/

Something stinks here. We've gone from being denied the qual by wing because of the fact that one of your mission dates was before you were green lighted as a trainee to needing approval for FAM PREP? You should already have that if your qual approval went all the way to wing.

If your squadron commander wants you to be a trainee and you have done all the tasks it takes 3 seconds for him or his designee to approve you. If he doesn't want to approve you, figure out why and fix it. You act like SQCC approval is a really big deal - I think we're missing some of the facts here.

How are you planning a mission if your CC isn't approving of it anyways?

[Eclipse]

Assuming you're ready, you have no way to contact your CC in 7 days?

If he is willing, the approval is a click.  If he is not, then it won't matter.

[airdale12]

Assuming you're ready, you have no way to contact your CC in 7 days?

If he is willing, the approval is a click.  If he is not, then it won't matter.

Once Im at Hawk I dnt know if I will be able to contact him. I know he wont mind.

[airdale12]

Yup.. as I noted in the other thread. Ah well.. can't please everyone, not even with a free doughnut.

If you're so tired of it, maybe it's time to move on, find another organization that might see things your way.

You know if I could go to on organization that had the same mission with out the bs yes i would definitely move.

BS? Training the way the program was designed? Look, either follow the rules or find a different sandbox to play in. I can certainly understand why you are frustrated but you're likely to get much farther by just completing the extra mission and moving on. The extra practice can't hurt.

Get your ESO to put something together. I have found the ICs in my wing are very easy to work with and are always willing to help.

I recently found an IC and im working on a mission number, wat im ticked of is that im going to hawk in 7 days, i wanted to got as a GTM3 to start working on my GTM2 or GTL but now if i go i wont get far because i need my squadron commanders approval :/

Something stinks here. We've gone from being denied the qual by wing because of the fact that one of your mission dates was before you were green lighted as a trainee to needing approval for FAM PREP? You should already have that if your qual approval went all the way to wing.

If your squadron commander wants you to be a trainee and you have done all the tasks it takes 3 seconds for him or his designee to approve you. If he doesn't want to approve you, figure out why and fix it. You act like SQCC approval is a really big deal - I think we're missing some of the facts here.

How are you planning a mission if your CC isn't approving of it anyways?

Im talking about getting other training done while at Hawk. I wont be able to contact him and ask him to sign it off for me.

My CC does approve us having mission, that is why we are planning one, I never said he doesnt approve.

[Spaceman3750]

Assuming you're ready, you have no way to contact your CC in 7 days?

If he is willing, the approval is a click.  If he is not, then it won't matter.

Once Im at Hawk I dnt know if I will be able to contact him. I know he wont mind.

They don't have telephones at Hawk? You can't get pre approval and backdate the entry later?

[airdale12]

Assuming you're ready, you have no way to contact your CC in 7 days?

If he is willing, the approval is a click.  If he is not, then it won't matter.

Once Im at Hawk I dnt know if I will be able to contact him. I know he wont mind.

They don't have telephones at Hawk? You can't get pre approval and backdate the entry later?

I guess I can always do your second comment.

[a2capt]

Perhaps someone who is in an authority position at Hawk Mountain might be reading this thread.. and be able to identify the attitude in person .. that'll be interesting. If you go there with the same attitude, lets see how far that gets. Tell them it's all BS.

[airdale12]

Perhaps someone who is in an authority position at Hawk Mountain might be reading this thread.. and be able to identify the attitude in person .. that'll be interesting. If you go there with the same attitude, lets see how far that gets. Tell them it's all BS.

Wow this is wat u come down to. I support HMRS thought this forum! People here complain about how HM doesn't follow some cap regs on hazing and people complain about a simple pink belt and so on....and now u come and say that?? This is the bs Im talking about.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps someone who is in an authority position at Hawk Mountain might be reading this thread.. and be able to identify the attitude in person .. that'll be interesting. If you go there with the same attitude, lets see how far that gets. Tell them it's all BS.

Wow this is wat u come down to. I support HMRS thought this forum! People here complain about how HM doesn't follow some cap regs on hazing and people complain about a simple pink belt and so on....and now u come and say that?? This is the bs Im talking about.

Hint: Spelling and grammar count.

You're the one who has espoused a disdain for the regs and the process, and continued to do so in a fairly "direct" way, both openly and
via PM's.  That attitude is likely something you display in person as well, and is exactly what others were trying to dispel about HMRS just a few
days ago.

If you've had challenges getting certified, so be it.  Work the program and get what you need, but if you come at your CC waiving your droids
in the same way in person as you do on here, and expect to get things done just because you participated in HMRS, that may be part of the delay.

[airdale12]

Perhaps someone who is in an authority position at Hawk Mountain might be reading this thread.. and be able to identify the attitude in person .. that'll be interesting. If you go there with the same attitude, lets see how far that gets. Tell them it's all BS.

Wow this is wat u come down to. I support HMRS thought this forum! People here complain about how HM doesn't follow some cap regs on hazing and people complain about a simple pink belt and so on....and now u come and say that?? This is the bs Im talking about.

Hint: Spelling and grammar count.

You're the one who has espoused a disdain for the regs and the process, and continued to do so in a fairly "direct" way, both openly and
via PM's.  That attitude is likely something you display in person as well, and is exactly what others were trying to dispel about HMRS just a few
days ago.

If you've had challenges getting certified, so be it.  Work the program and get what you need, but if you come at your CC waiving your droids
in the same way in person as you do on here, and expect to get things done just because you participated in HMRS, that may be part of the delay.

I guess you will have to meet me then.