AOBD

[Tubacap]

Does anyone know when they changed being an FRO from an advanced task to a pre-req for being an AOBD?  The wing is trying to limit the amount of people who are FROs, so they were not approving them until they are actually almost done with their AOBD training.

[JeffDG]

Within the last couple months.

When I started AOBD (qualified as MO in November), it was not a prereq. 

[JeffDG]

Oh...and it's not really a prerequisite.

There are 3 items:
MP
MO
FRO

You need 2 of the three...so if you're an MP/MO, you don't need to be a FRO...if you skipped MO (ie. Went MS->MP) or not an MP, then FRO is required.

[cap235629]

you are required to complete the FRO Training, NOT necessarily be a wing FRO

[ßτε]

you are required to complete the FRO Training, NOT necessarily be a wing FRO

You are mistaken. As of about a month ago, one of the prerequisites is being a Flight Release Officer.

[JeffDG]

you are required to complete the FRO Training, NOT necessarily be a wing FRO

Nope...the prerequisite is "Flight Release Officer".  The "Advanced Training" is "Complete Flight Release Officer Training"

It's kinda tough to effectively do the AOBD job without FRO privileges for mission support.  Don't need "day-to-day" privileges, but when you're doing the job on a mission, it's kinda useful.

[JeffDG]

you are required to complete the FRO Training, NOT necessarily be a wing FRO

You are mistaken. As of about a month ago, one of the prerequisites is being a Flight Release Officer.

Only if you are not both a MP and MO.

There are 4 prerequisites (sorry above I said 3).  You need 3 of them:
"Air Operations Branch Director - Prerequisites - No. of Required Tasks: 3"

GES
MO
MP
FRO

If you have both MO and MP, you don't need FRO (well...unless somehow you got there without GES).

[ßτε]

you are required to complete the FRO Training, NOT necessarily be a wing FRO

You are mistaken. As of about a month ago, one of the prerequisites is being a Flight Release Officer.

Only if you are not both a MP and MO.

There are 4 prerequisites (sorry above I said 3).  You need 3 of them:
"Air Operations Branch Director - Prerequisites - No. of Required Tasks: 3"

GES
MO
MP
FRO

If you have both MO and MP, you don't need FRO (well...unless somehow you got there without GES).

After some research I find that you are correct. For those who are qualified both as a MP and MO do not need FRO. I have a feeling this was not intentional, however.

For those who are either a MP or a MO, but not both, FRO is a requirement.

[JeffDG]

After some research I find that you are correct. For those who are qualified both as a MP and MO do not need FRO. I have a feeling this was not intentional, however.

For those who are either a MP or a MO, but not both, FRO is a requirement.

For MO only, it makes some sense.  Someone could make it to MO pretty easily without ever encountering a flight-release.  For MP only, there's less of a justification.

Myself, I got there as an MO, but I'm also a VFR Pilot, just without the hours for MP, so I've worked withing the flight-release system anyway.  My first mission training as AOBD (before this requirement), it was a pain in the backside to have to find an FRO after I'd briefed the crews and they were chomping at the bit to kick-the-tires-and-light-the-fires.  I requested a "mission-only" FRO appointment after that, and the second mission went more smoothly as I could handle the full briefing and release them myself.

[Spaceman3750]

After some research I find that you are correct. For those who are qualified both as a MP and MO do not need FRO. I have a feeling this was not intentional, however.

For those who are either a MP or a MO, but not both, FRO is a requirement.

For MO only, it makes some sense.  Someone could make it to MO pretty easily without ever encountering a flight-release.  For MP only, there's less of a justification.

Myself, I got there as an MO, but I'm also a VFR Pilot, just without the hours for MP, so I've worked withing the flight-release system anyway.  My first mission training as AOBD (before this requirement), it was a pain in the backside to have to find an FRO after I'd briefed the crews and they were chomping at the bit to kick-the-tires-and-light-the-fires.  I requested a "mission-only" FRO appointment after that, and the second mission went more smoothly as I could handle the full briefing and release them myself.

The IC is authorized to act as an FRO. Why didn't you just give him a call (not that it matters now, mostly curious)?

[JeffDG]

The IC is authorized to act as an FRO. Why didn't you just give him a call (not that it matters now, mostly curious)?

I know, but he was busy too!

Bottom line, it's really part of the AOBD's job...

[Eclipse]

It might be expedient to have AOBD doing FRO, but it really is better to have someone on Air Ops' staff doing it and not the AOBD.

This is one more detail better delegated to someone else, especially in large missions.

[Spaceman3750]

So here's an interesting thought... Why do we have an FRO process to begin with? I mean, if I were a pilot and rented an aircraft from the FBO, it's not like I have to call someone for a release. Our aircraft are equipped similarly as regular GA aircraft and fly under similar conditions - why is it not the pilot's judgement? We had a CAP aircraft (a couple actually, one was going in for MX) at a fly-in last year, and when they had to leave due to impending weather, they almost couldn't because they couldn't get an FRO to answer the phone. Someone finally called them back, but all you're doing is adding steps where steps need not be added.

[Eclipse]

We have additional requirements over and above the bus-driver's license to operate our aircraft.  When you rent that plane you are signing and agreeing to their release process.  In most cases the owner or manager of that aircraft is standing in front of you and can assess your fitness for flight
at that moment.

In CAP, the FRO might be 1/2 a state away, so at a minimum things like current membership, etc., have to be checked before taking off.
It is also part of the professionalism of not being a flying club that we have other people checking our work.  Without an FRO, we
would never know the plane is gone, nor if it was late, etc.

One of the reasons CAP has work in searching for planes is because the average pilot isn't telling people where he is going.

There should be no issue with finding an FRO, we have plenty of them in our wing.

[JeffDG]

It might be expedient to have AOBD doing FRO, but it really is better to have someone on Air Ops' staff doing it and not the AOBD.

This is one more detail better delegated to someone else, especially in large missions.

Actually, I'd go the other way...The AOBD can delegate some of the other stuff to others on the staff, but the ultimate responsibility for releasing the flight should remain with the Branch Director.

I could see an IC or OSC wishing to retain that responsibility, but I don't think it should be delegated downward by the AOBD.