Left Seat

[Flying Pig]

A new member is gearing up for his Form 5.  He is flying with a current unit Mission Pilot and has a PPL and an HP endorsement. 
Is there anything in the 60-1 that prevents that member from flying in the left seat to prep for the Form 5 as long as the Mission Pilot is comfortable flying from the right?  If so, is it a wing supplement or am I missing it in the 60-1?

[Eclipse]

I believe the MP doing the eval has to be a CFI to fly right seat.

[Flying Pig]

No Im not talking about the MP doing the eval.  A member who is working towards his form 5, basically, getting some time to get familiar with the plane, taking a unit MP with him.  Is there anything in the 60-1 or anywhere else that says the MP has to fly from the left seat.  I know the FAA doest care, but I dont know what CAP says.  I cant find it in the 60-1 anywhere.

Otherwise, Im having a hard time figuring our how I am suppossed to get pilots geared up for their Form 5.  Not flight instruction, basically allowing the member to fly the plane from the left seat with the CAP Mission Pilot in the right.  Basically, its two CAP members flying together.

[Eclipse]

As I said, I believe they have to be a CFI in order to fly right seat.

A pre-Form 5 has not proven to CAP they can fly a plane yet.

[DG]

I believe the MP doing the eval has to be a CFI to fly right seat.

As you always say to others, "Please cite regulation."

Not coincidentally, I believe you are wrong.

For a non-pilot, you are amazing with information and opinions that always are wrong.  It is challenging enough to understand and comply with our regulations.  It is not helping to propagate and advance urban legends and non-rules.  You are not helping here. 

[Flying Pig]

As I said, I believe they have to be a CFI in order to fly right seat.

A pre-Form 5 has not proven to CAP they can fly a plane yet.

Both sides of this argument start off with "I believe" .  In this case, it doesnt help.  I cant find the answer in the knowledge base or in the 60-1.  I know Cadet O-rides do not allow it, but this is a Senior member with a PPL.
In my scenario, the MP isnt instructing or evaluating anything.  The member is not a CAP pilot yet, but wants to fly to get comfortable with the unit plane prior to a Form 5.  Can that MP let him fly from the left seat?  The MP is the PIC.  It would be no issue at all for the MP to let the member fly from the right seat, but can he do it from the left.

[DG]

No Im not talking about the MP doing the eval.  A member who is working towards his form 5, basically, getting some time to get familiar with the plane, taking a unit MP with him.  Is there anything in the 60-1 or anywhere else that says the MP has to fly from the left seat.  I know the FAA doest care, but I dont know what CAP says.  I cant find it in the 60-1 anywhere.

Otherwise, Im having a hard time figuring our how I am suppossed to get pilots geared up for their Form 5.  Not flight instruction, basically allowing the member to fly the plane from the left seat with the CAP Mission Pilot in the right.  Basically, its two CAP members flying together.

Rob,

The Mission Pilot can fly from the right seat and be PIC.

The FAA allows it, and the CAP does not prohibit it, except in the case of cadet orientation flights, both CAP and USAF ROTC.

He does NOT need to be a CFI.

However, if any problems or damages occur, the PIC is responsible.

Do not listen to these non-pilots who have no clue, but make you believe they do.  They only cause trouble for CAP and for CAPTalk.  Either they want to cause trouble.  Or they are ignorant of their ignorance on these issues.

[flynd94]

As I said, I believe they have to be a CFI in order to fly right seat.

A pre-Form 5 has not proven to CAP they can fly a plane yet.

Incorrect, you can be PIC in any seat.  He is not performing any type of instruction, just helping the member get familiar with the aircraft.  Nothing wrong/illegal with this.  I used to encourage folks when I was my Grp/DOV to take advantage of this allowed practice.  I went so far to run this practice by my Wing/DOV and legal officer, they both had no issues with the practice.

[MooneyMeyer]

There is nothing that either the FAA says or CAP says that prohibits me, as a CAPF-5 (FAA Commercial) pilot, that would prohibit me from jumping into the right seat of a CAP airplane and taking it up on a proficiency flight.

CAP does require any passenger I take to be a member of CAP and we both must be in uniform. If that passenger is a PPL and he/she sits in the left seat, whats the big deal? I would suggest to my passenger, as I have done so in the past, that I am PIC until he takes and passes his Form 5 checkride.

There's nothing that says I can't be PIC from the right seat. (Except for on O-rides)

[Mustang]

Unless you've demonstrated competency from the right seat, I'd say doing so would amount to negligence on your part and would expose you to an assessment for any damage that might occur, along with running the risk of losing your flying privileges.

[Eclipse]

A new member is gearing up for his Form 5.  He is flying with a current unit Mission Pilot and has a PPL and an HP endorsement. 
Is there anything in the 60-1 that prevents that member from flying in the left seat to prep for the Form 5 as long as the Mission Pilot is comfortable flying from the right?  If so, is it a wing supplement or am I missing it in the 60-1?

Yes, and this time with the regs.  I was incorrect, but only slightly.

There is no restriction from being a PIC in the right seat, however, in order to allow a non-Form 5 pilot to fly the aircraft for familiarization, you do need to be a CAP Instructor Pilot, otherwise he's not even allowed to operate the controls.

e. Only CAP pilots may start, taxi, or otherwise operate CAP aircraft unless the aircraft is released for repairs (see paragraph 1-1). Hand propped starts are prohibited.

A "CAP pilot" is someone who has completed and holds a valid Form 5 (among other requirements).

To allow a non-Form 5 pilot to operate a CAP aircraft requires an instructor pilot be PIC.
Mission Pilots, in and of themselves are not necessarialy CAP Instructor Pilots, nor CFI's.

3-7. Classification of CAP Pilots.
e. CAP Instructor Pilot.
(1) Qualified CAP VFR Pilot in the aircraft model flown if a Corporate CAP aircraft.
(2) Qualified IAW FAA regulations to operate as an Instructor in the CAP aircraft flown. (3) Satisfactorily complete an Instructor endorsement on a CAPF 5 within the preceding 12 calendar months and designated in writing as a CAP Instructor Pilot by the wing or region commander, Executive Director, or their designee.

I believe the term for the above is generally "CFI".

So, in answer to the original question, the new pilot may sit in the left seat, and his non-Instructor-rated /  non-CFI pilot mentor may fly as PIC from the right seat, however that new pilot may not actually operate the aircraft, unless his right-seat mentor is an approved CAP Instructor Pilot, which would require he be a CFI.

[FANBOY]

...in order to allow a non-Form 5 pilot to fly the aircraft for familiarization, you do need to be a CAP Instructor Pilot, otherwise he's not even allowed to operate the controls.

Sorry Eclipse, but your interpretation of the 60-1 and FARs is incorrect.

Please consider the following in the context of familiarization vs. flight training. To address the start of this thread... A pilot flying with the intent of preparing for a Form 5 or Form 91 isn't in the scope of familiarization, that's flight training and requires a CFI.

As a CAP Pilot, I may allow a passenger to manipulate the controls in flight, though I maintain the responsibility for the conduct of the flight as Pilot In Command. I can do this, without being a CAP Instructor Pilot, or a CFI, as long as it is not for the purpose of flight instruction. This is how we conduct Cadet Orientation Flights. If I'm authorized to let a Cadet fly the plane, I'm authorized to let you do it too.

(Though CAP regs do specifically prohibit the Orientation Pilot from flying the ride from the right seat during an O-Ride.)

Say you and I go flying some day... (Assuming we can find a crowbar long enough to wedge us both into the front of a 182 together.) I'm authorized to let you manipulate the controls. You can fly the plane. But I'd remain the sole PIC. You can't log it. I can't sign your logbook. I would not be providing flight instruction by the intent or definition of the Federal Air Regulations.

For what it's worth, I've even vetted this interpenetration with Stan/Eval.

In the interest of safety, I would never allow a pax (or aircrewman) to fly the plane during a critical phase of flight. That's what CFI's get paid the big bucks for...

s/v,

- Fanboy

[sparks]

A better approach would be to have a CAP approved CFI fly with the person getting familiar with the aircraft. In my view this "familiarization" flight with a MP is just a slight of hand dodge of the regulations and is unofficial flight instruction. Many may disagree but we all have opinions. Where the PIC sits isn't relevant as long as the controls can be reached from that seat, i.e. the back seat wouldn't be an option. A PIC could sit in the back seat if one of the persons in the front seat is qualified or the PIC is a CFI and is providing instruction from the back seat, egad, what a terrible scenario that would be! Yeah, I know a Cub has the instructor in the back seat but the rear seat also has controls unlike the Cessna's.

[DG]

Unless you've demonstrated competency from the right seat, I'd say doing so would amount to negligence on your part and would expose you to an assessment for any damage that might occur, along with running the risk of losing your flying privileges.

Mustang, take a breath next time before posting.  I think then you could compose your thoughts, which are good thoughts.

1.  I am confident you know there is no procedure for "demonstrated competency from the right seat."

2.  Acting as PIC from the right seat would "expose you to an assessment for any damage that might occur" IN ANY CASE.  Whether or not you have "demonstrated competency from the right seat."

But to a large extent, I agree with you that it is not a great idea.  We used to have a fair amount of this activity for conversion training.  For the 182.  For the Maule.  While it is legal, it places all the risk on the qualified CAP pilot.  The word got around about the risk, and we don't have so much of it lately.

But it is legal.

I also know of an instance where a CFI was too busy to fly with a 10,000 hour Delta captain who wanted to fly a CAP 182.  So he talked a non-CFI into doing this very thing.  Fly right seat, and it will be nothing to it.  The guy is a pilot with 10,000 hours.

Guess what?  The Delta captain did not flare.  And flew it right into the ground.  The non-CFI pilot in the right seat did not have the wherewithal to jump in and take over in time.  He paid for it.

So is it legal?  Yes.

Is it a great idea?  No.
 

[DG]

Yes, and this time with the regs.  I was incorrect, but only slightly.

There is no restriction from being a PIC in the right seat, however, in order to allow a non-Form 5 pilot to fly the aircraft for familiarization, you do need to be a CAP Instructor Pilot, otherwise he's not even allowed to operate the controls.

e. Only CAP pilots may start, taxi, or otherwise operate CAP aircraft unless the aircraft is released for repairs (see paragraph 1-1). Hand propped starts are prohibited.

A "CAP pilot" is someone who has completed and holds a valid Form 5 (among other requirements).

To allow a non-Form 5 pilot to operate a CAP aircraft requires an instructor pilot be PIC.
Mission Pilots, in and of themselves are not necessarialy CAP Instructor Pilots, nor CFI's.

3-7. Classification of CAP Pilots.
e. CAP Instructor Pilot.
(1) Qualified CAP VFR Pilot in the aircraft model flown if a Corporate CAP aircraft.
(2) Qualified IAW FAA regulations to operate as an Instructor in the CAP aircraft flown. (3) Satisfactorily complete an Instructor endorsement on a CAPF 5 within the preceding 12 calendar months and designated in writing as a CAP Instructor Pilot by the wing or region commander, Executive Director, or their designee.

I believe the term for the above is generally "CFI".

So, in answer to the original question, the new pilot may sit in the left seat, and his non-Instructor-rated /  non-CFI pilot mentor may fly as PIC from the right seat, however that new pilot may not actually operate the aircraft, unless his right-seat mentor is an approved CAP Instructor Pilot, which would require he be a CFI.

Eclipse, we all must appreciate your enthusiasm.

But, how do we communicate to you, and how do you hear to understand, you do NOT know what you are talking about in this area.

It is not only because you are a non-pilot.

It mainly is because you do NOT know what you are talking about, but that does not stop you, and you run amok like a bull in a china shop.

1.  Most cases involve moving up to a new aircraft make and model, and the left seat pilot is a Form 5 CAP Pilot.  In category and class.  But not in make and model.  The right seat CAP Pilot qualified in the make and model does NOT need to be an Instructor Pilot.

2.  Even if the left seat pilot is not a Form 5 CAP Pilot, in category and class, he legally can fly left seat with a right seat CAP Pilot qualified in the make and model to start, taxi, or otherwise operate the CAP aircraft, who does NOT need to be an Instructor Pilot.  If the left seat pilot holds an FAA pilot certificate in category and class and is the sole manipulator of the controls, he can log the flight time.

I agree that it is a risk the non-CFI should not take.  But let's advise on that basis.  It is a risk the non-CFI should not take. 

NOT on the basis of your wrong understanding and interpretation of the regulations.

[Eclipse]

Is attitude and insult necessary to discuss a disagreement on an interpretation?

[rgr84]

Other than CAPR 52-7 involving cadets, you can sit where you want.  If told differently by say the FRO, they could be violating 60-1.

2-5. Flight Release. The FRO is responsible for authorizing a CAP pilot to fly as pilot-in-command in CAP aircraft. The FRO is expected to use his/her best efforts to verify appropriate information prior to giving a flight release, including reliance on information verbally provided by the CAP pilot requesting a flight release. The FRO is not a dispatcher and is not responsible for the actual conduct of the flight. They are responsible for confirming the aircraft safely arrived at its destination if an FAA flight plan is not used (see paragraph 2-5e).

[heliodoc]

Maybe with all the regular FAA requirements that CAP requires...

Maybe that is not such a bad idea to require FRO's to hold an FAA Dispatchers License...

Anyone got an extra 5500 to 8K to attain that license??

[Mustang]

1.  I am confident you know there is no procedure for "demonstrated competency from the right seat."

Sure there is. You took your CFI practical from the right seat, did you not?  Why do you suppose that was?  A Form 5 can be performed from the right seat just as easily as the left, and would provide exactly the sort of demonstrated competency I'm talking about.

2.  Acting as PIC from the right seat would "expose you to an assessment for any damage that might occur" IN ANY CASE.  Whether or not you have "demonstrated competency from the right seat."

Of course, but the absence of such a demonstration might be the difference between a finding of simple negligence and one of gross negligence.

I also know of an instance where a CFI was too busy to fly with a 10,000 hour Delta captain who wanted to fly a CAP 182.  So he talked a non-CFI into doing this very thing.  Fly right seat, and it will be nothing to it.  The guy is a pilot with 10,000 hours.

Guess what?  The Delta captain did not flare.  And flew it right into the ground.  The non-CFI pilot in the right seat did not have the wherewithal to jump in and take over in time.  He paid for it.

So is it legal?  Yes.

Is it a great idea?  No.

You're a piece of work, you know that? All that huffing and puffing, only to more or less agree with me in the end.  I never said anything about the legality of the PIC flying from the right seat, only of the relative wisdom. 

[DG]

You're a piece of work, you know that? All that huffing and puffing, only to more or less agree with me in the end.  I never said anything about the legality of the PIC flying from the right seat, only of the relative wisdom.

You, my friend, have self esteem problems.

You look at everything as an attack on you.   It is NOT all about you.

What I laid out is the way it is.  Has nothing to do with you.

It is NOT about I am right and you are wrong.  It never was.

I hope you get over that some day, with maturity.  For your own good.